M.I.L guilt tripping my son over a profile pic :/

banie01

Deleted User wrote: »

My thrust was to establish if you really, genuinely understood her loss, and what it felt like for her.

The above post answers my question just about as clearly as it could possibly be answered - you don't. You have no idea how she feels, and you seem to refract her behaviour through the prism of your feelings, your loss, and your needs.

There's nothing wrong with that - you suffered a terrible loss, and it's no surprise that you are behaving the way that you do. But you are kidding yourself if you pretend to understand how she feels - and understanding how she feels is the key to understanding the motivation for her behaviour. If you're not willing to do that, then you're not really looking for the answer you say you are by posting this thread.

Sorry if that's not one of the answers you were looking for by posting the thread, but I really don't think you are genuinely in a position to resolve the issues that affect the triangular relationship between you, your son and your mother-in-law as matters stand. IMHO, you have some work to do to get beyond a two-dimensional (maybe even one-dimensional) view of your mother-in-law's feelings and actions, and until you do that all the advice in the world from outsiders won't really help you.

Thanks for the input Ulysess,
I'm not looking for any particular kind of answer, and most definitely not looking for an answer that reinforces my own viewpoint.

I've never claimed to understand her loss, I'd be lying if I said I did.
What I do know is that I suffered a devastating, crippling loss when her daughter died and I can only infer from my own grief that hers is worse.

However knowing that, what I cannot do is allow that loss/grief to be an excuse for her bullying my son.

As one dimensional as my understanding of her actions/motivations may seem or even actually may be, it really boils down to this.
On the nights when I wanted to end my own life(and still sometimes do, but not that I'm suicidal), to avoid the pain of waking and rolling over and looking at her empty pillow and realising all our plans for our future together are gone.

On the days that still come along where I mark an occasion with our son, occasions that his mam should be with us to mark and grief consumes me.

On simple little moments that pass when something happens and I turn to her to say something before I remember she's gone..
On all those occasions when my grief still overwhelms me....
My grief has never been an excuse to bully a child!

When my son started school, made his communion, won medals at sports day, marched in the parade and the myriad other achievements that matter to a little boy growing up....
Occasions when a little boy wants to share his joy and pride with both his parents there to tell him well done, we love you son...
Moments my son will never ever have!
On all those occasions my son never decided that his loss was an excuse to bully someone, and indeed when the grief hits him he makes efforts to talk through it and not react by inflicting hurt on someone else.

So I hope you'll appreciate it if I'm still at a loss to be able to understand how grief excuses a grown woman bullying a child.
I can understand the emotional process that leads to her needing to lash out at something or someone...
I cannot understand how it becomes acceptable for that emotional attack to be made on a child.

PyeContinental

So sorry to hear of your situation, but also so impressed at how emotionally stable you are and how you are bringing up your son so well, and taking the time to consider everything so carefully and remain rational in the face of a barrage of irrationality.

It was especially heartbreaking to read your last post. Well done for keeping it together and finding the strength to keep on going. Maybe you could explain a lot of what you've told us to your mother in law, but start by saying how much you loved her daughter and how you still do and how you will continue to miss her so much. Explain that your son's happiness is the most important thing to you and how you know that's what's the most important thing to her too.

If that sort of approach doesn't open up a productive dialogue, perhaps the father in law or brother or sister in law could intercede? (Sorry if I missed that but I didn't see mention of whether her husband was still around and if so, how he or their other children felt about her behaviour - apart from the collage sister)

banie01

banie01 wrote: »

Thanks for the input....

Sorry it's not proving helpful, and sorry if it comes across as less than sympathetic; that isn't my intention. Perhaps if I tell you a wee story it might explain where I'm coming from.

I know someone in more or less the same position as you; and I know someone in pretty much the same position as her. Well, that's not quite true. Their story - which is hauntingly like the story of you and your mother-in-law - started going on 25 years ago. It's fair to say that it hasn't gone well. They shared a common grief, and that grief divided rather than unified them. In one respect that was actually OK; they never really got along anyway. But a lot of other people paid a price for their personal dislike of each other, including two girls who really shouldn't have been caught in the crossfire (his kids, her grandkids). And the two of them have paid a heavy price too, by alienating friends and relations over the years. It got bitter and poisonous, and it still is to this day.

Why did it happen? Who knows for sure? Both (quite understandably) felt an intense sense of loss, and both (not so understandably) believed that the other was incapable of understanding their loss and their grief. Both were happy to blame each other, and neither ever seemed to see the value in considering what was happening from the point of view of the other. Both are adamant that the bad blood between them is the other one's fault. Regrettably, it seems that they are both 100% correct - for all the good that does either of them.

Anyway, that's my little story, and what I'm saying is that it'd be nice to think that in 15 or 20 years time you won't find yourself inhabiting a similar wasteland.

The best of luck to you in your efforts.

Ellsbells

The crux of the matter is that she was like this before your wife died. It's her modus operandi and like a lot of other Irish mammies she is never wrong.:rolleyes:

I don't think she will ever change I am sorry to say but I do really think you are doing a great job under very difficult circumstances.

She actually doesn't know how lucky she is to have him. I know my family would love to have a grandchild from my sibling who died but sadly they never had kids.

banie01

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry it's not proving helpful, and sorry if it comes across as less than sympathetic; that isn't my intention. Perhaps if I tell you a wee story it might explain where I'm coming from.

I know someone in more or less the same position as you; and I know someone in pretty much the same position as her. Well, that's not quite true. Their story - which is hauntingly like the story of you and your mother-in-law - started going on 25 years ago. It's fair to say that it hasn't gone well. They shared a common grief, and that grief divided rather than unified them. In one respect that was actually OK; they never really got along anyway. But a lot of other people paid a price for their personal dislike of each other, including two girls who really shouldn't have been caught in the crossfire (his kids, her grandkids). And the two of them have paid a heavy price too, by alienating friends and relations over the years. It got bitter and poisonous, and it still is to this day.

Why did it happen? Who knows for sure? Both (quite understandably) felt an intense sense of loss, and both (not so understandably) believed that the other was incapable of understanding their loss and their grief. Both were happy to blame each other, and neither ever seemed to see the value in considering what was happening from the point of view of the other. Both are adamant that the bad blood between them is the other one's fault. Regrettably, it seems that they are both 100% correct - for all the good that does either of them.

Anyway, that's my little story, and what I'm saying is that it'd be nice to think that in 15 or 20 years time you won't find yourself inhabiting a similar wasteland.

The best of luck to you in your efforts.

Ulysses, thanks again for sharing the benefit of your experience.

However, and this is a very important point.
My relationship with my M.I.L was dysfunctional long before her daughter died.
I don't expect shared grief to bring us any closer nor indeed do I see it as a basis for some kind epiphany that will allow us to approach rapprochment.
After all grieving is an intensely personal experience that everyone experiences differently.
The only commonality is the loss
The depth of her's should not be an issue in how she interacts with my son.
To be perfectly honest if it is, if it is that uncontrollable that it is a valid(in her mind) excuse for bulling a child, I feel she should take a step back from involving herself so much in our lives.
It is an Adults role to support children in their travails, it is not a particularly adult act to project ones grief and bully a child.

How she interacts with my son, how she treats him are my issues with the woman.
Can she be an adult about it, can she accept that a little boy experiencing happiness and sharing that, is not a sleight to his mothers memory?
That him being happy and well adjusted is just as important moving him forward as her own loss is?


Yes her loss is terrible, but she is behaving in a very bipolar manner towards my son.
On the one hand she wants to be a cog in his life(and I'm supportive of that) and indeed complains when she feels we ''exclude'' her.
On the other, she can chop and change plans with him at the drop of a hat.
Can bully him when he doesn't conform to her notion of how she should be grieving, and how his grief fits her mood.
Can ostracize and treat him like a second class citizen compared to his cousins?
Can accuse a child of 'replacing his mother' because he shared a happy memory
This is a relationship I work at maintaining for the sole benefit of my son, (and out of a continuing sense of loyalty to her daughter).
And to be honest if he is going to be treated like this, there's no benefit to it.
Other than being the example of how not to treat people.

I don't think I'll ever understand the depth of her grief as you pointed out earlier....
Nor do I think she will ever understand ours but I don't want or need her understanding...
Because my grief isn't the framework within my relationships are maintained.
For her to maintain a healthy relationship with my son I don't need her understanding nor should she need mine.
I feel however that what she does need to do is appreciate that he's the child!
He's the one without a mother and that he is the one in need of a supportive nurturing framework on which to base his interactions and relationships and I'd rather he learns to base those interactions on respect, love and support then to learn that grief is an excuse that allows bitterness and acrimony to become acceptable means of treating people.

banie01

banie01 wrote: »

Ulysses, thanks again for sharing the benefit of your experience.

You're welcome - not that it is helping. Rather than continue to be unhelpful, I'll repeat something I said earlier - because I think it bears repeating - and then sign off:

Deleted User wrote: »

.....it'd be nice to think that in 15 or 20 years time you won't find yourself inhabiting a similar wasteland.

The best of luck to you in your efforts.

Queen-Mise

Ellsbells wrote: »

The crux of the matter is that she was like this before your wife died.

This is the piece of information I was looking for whilst reading all the posts.

This situation that started at the weekend with your son changing his FB* picture has absolutely nothing got to do with the death of your wife.

This is about control (is my best bet). I honestly think that if you tried (theoretically) to do everything possible to please your MIL, you still wouldn't be able to. I'd say the MIL is unhappy in her own life (probably for a long time) and has developed some coping mechanisms that are not pleasant for those around her (probably also has the passive/aggressive personality type). She may even has this personality directly from her own mother.

I think it is time to take away the death of her daughter as any explanation/justification of her actions. If she was still alive & with you today, your MIL would still be finding some ways to poke or criticise your marriage or child rearing. Maybe not so directly but I would bet you would have written a thread at some point on PI on how to deal with a MIL.

My suggestion is to go back to the drawing board on how to deal with an interfering yet important relative. Take away all the other emotional luggage and start again.

It is important that you facilitate a relationship for your son but not necessarily for yourself. Maybe see can you engineer the MIL spending time with your son but without you there - collect or drop him off from school, some of his extra-curricular, stay for a night (while you go out with the LADS**). [The unintended (hopefully) side effect from this will be if your lets it out that he likes the GF, as she is a good friend (type thing).]

Your MIL is never going to understand, accept or approve of your actions.

I have had to accept this with my own MIL, I am tolerated: bullied, derided etc if she can get away with it (his family generally would treat me badly if I allowed them too). I have to put a guard up when I am around them, if they are nice for six months or 12 months, and my guard goes down - it is like they can sense it and the bullying, snide comments etc. will all start again.
God forbid that anything would happen my husband, these facts will not change. They would not become a supportive family if anything happens.


I hope this is all OK & hasn't been too blunt or broken any charters etc.

*My 11 year old son also has a FB page and has done for the past few years. He wanted to play some of the games & I preferred to have him on FB with them than wandering around different websites etc. I log in to it and poke about - basically I censor everything and make no apology for it. He loves being able to post happy birthday's etc on families walls and talking to cousins who don't live close by etc.

** The GF at this point would probably cause an apoplexy & I'm not being flippant.

curlzy

Hey OP,

I'm not a parent and I've never lost a partner so I don't know what help I can be, please be aware that this is all coming from what I IMAGINE you're experiencing. Firstly, I just wanted to say that your little boy is very lucky to have a dad like you. Even though the wicked witch of the west is obviously an obnoxious person you still keep turning the other cheek. I can totally understand why and you have my admiration, regardless of what she's been through she's acting like a total cow to both you and your son. It takes alot of strength to continue making the effort as you have.

What I would do if I were you, is be ready to listen to your son if he wants to stop visiting her. Regardless of familial ties I really wouldn't encourage a child to be around someone who treats him/her badly. Doesn't matter if it's grandmother, grandfather, mother, father etc. All that's teaching him at the moment is that it's not ok to be happy, that he's not as good as his cousins and that he isn't loved as much as them. That's seriously damaging for a child and definately the last thing he needs.

I certainly wouldn't be taking abusive calls or rants from her either, if she can be civil and sane then just walk away. I honestly think you need to pull back a bit here. At the end of the day you're raising her grandchild and she should be supporting you, if she can't, well then I honestly would be pulling away and stop trying so hard.

Best of luck to you all.

banie01

Thanks Curlzy,
My son's well being is my sole concern in all this, and supporting him is exactly what I will do regardless of any upset it may cause my M.I.L.
Providing him support and ensuring his happiness is my paramount concern in all this and if it does transpire that his Nana can't bottle up her own feelings and be the support he needs then I will put a lot of distance between them if he chooses to distance himself.
I won't have him victimised by anyone for simply being happy, least of all someone who should be concerned only with his well being.

The Cool

Hi OP,

Firstly just fair play to you for dealing with it the way you have - you seem to have the right way of looking at how your son's relationships should be etc, and it's lovely that your son also understands that while his mum will always be #1, it's ok to accept somebody else into your lives. As you say, it doesn't mean that you love your deceased partner any less but you deserve to be happy and you seem to be quite a young man. Bitterness about there being a so-called "replacement" of your partner (although obviously that will never be the case) is uncalled for at the point of five and a half years after her passing. I appreciate that your MIL has the loss of her daughter to deal with here, but she also has to understand that you and your son have your whole lives ahead of you and those lives should be happy. You've taken enough sadness already.

I think that you should bear in mind - and it would be great if your MIL saw it this way too - that your son's mum would not want him (or you) to carry on with a big gaping hole in his life. I think it's great that you have found a new partner who your son accepts and therefore he might have a maternal parent figure in his life. It's not as if you two are forgetting her; she will always be in your hearts but it's perfectly fine for you both to have found someone special to join you on your journey. All the best.

boobar

banie01 wrote: »

Thanks Curlzy,
My son's well being is my sole concern in all this, and supporting him is exactly what I will do regardless of any upset it may cause my M.I.L.
Providing him support and ensuring his happiness is my paramount concern in all this and if it does transpire that his Nana can't bottle up her own feelings and be the support he needs then I will put a lot of distance between them if he chooses to distance himself.
I won't have him victimised by anyone for simply being happy, least of all someone who should be concerned only with his well being.

Banie01,

First off, I'm sorry for your loss and well done on doing such a good job with your son. To have a kid explain that the reason he chose a photo for Facebook was because it was the happiest day of his holidays and in the pic was him, you and your partner. So you've got something very dear there and you should be proud of yourself.

It's hard when others can't put themselves in the place of the child, poor kid will have gone through enough losing his mum but you'll have gathered from many of the comments here that he's getting all the love and support he could wish for from his dad.

In all things, kids should get to be kids and not have to become old before their time doing things like considering how their innocent actions might upset adults.

You're focussing on the right thing - your son's happiness.

Health and happiness to you and yours for the future.

ash23

OP I can't really give advice, just some experience from our family. My uncle died when he was young. He wasn't long married and they had 3 children. His wife remarried a few years later and despite them only living a few miles away, they were never really as involved in our family as our other cousins.
This made my grandmother very upset as they were the only link she had to her late son and she held it against her daughter in law.

Now, as a single parent with a new partner, I can see how easily it can happen. I'm not suggesting that separating is the same as losing someone so bear with me. Myself and my ex split almost 5 years ago. My daughter was very close to his mother and remains so. But I will admit I am guilty of not making time for her. Between work and school and activities and my new partner and my family and friends, she gets somewhat left out of the picture. I do make the effort but sometimes I think "god, it's been a month since she saw her" and I'll call and make arrangements to drop her in.

I think that when that common link is gone, people tend to get sidetracked by the people who are in their lives daily. We all think at times "I must catch up with xyz" and then forget about it again.

I know you don't want to "force" your son to go and visit but would it be any harm having a scheduled visit? Once a week?

Maybe if the gran felt that the bond was stronger she would be more able to accept the fact that you are moving on and it wouldn't be met with a fear that your son will grow up feeling closer to your and your partners family than to your late wifes family?

The cousins in question are now adults and over the last decade they've made great strides in becoming part of our family again. As kids we never went to their birthday parties or they never came to ours. But now we all attend each others weddings and christenings etc.

My gran thankfully lived to see this and it gave her such joy. She was still resistant and begrudging to her daughter in law at times but I think her daughter in law understood as time passed.

It's a very complex situation you're in and there's hurt and grief at the core of it.

I don't think your son was wrong to change his profile picture but I think I can understand what a blow that would have been to your late wifes family. And they could and should have handled it better but grief is a terrible thing and some people are jealous and angry when others continue to live their lives when another cannot.

Best of luck with it OP. It's a hard situation.

banie01

ash23 wrote: »

I know you don't want to "force" your son to go and visit but would it be any harm having a scheduled visit? Once a week?

Maybe if the gran felt that the bond was stronger she would be more able to accept the fact that you are moving on and it wouldn't be met with a fear that your son will grow up feeling closer to your and your partners family than to your late wifes family?

Ash,
thanks for the input your advice is appreciated, indeed I often look for your advice 1st on most topics in PI/RI.

But just on the above point....
You've completely misunderstood the situation regarding the 'visit's'.
Its not that I can't or won't make them, nor indeed that I currently have to force him to go.
My son see's his Grandparents at least twice a week, and most weeks he will sleep over there 1 night too.
Indeed we both go out of our way to make time and involve them, because they are my son's link to his Mam and he is theirs.
Not only do we visit, we make every effort to include them in family occasions and activities.
Efforts that are never reciprocated, but that we are pulled up on quickly enough when they lapse.

The problem is not in making time for a visit, or indeed in even feeling obligated to visit....
They are our family after all.
The problem is him being treated differently by them and the fact that he is becoming more and more aware of those differences.
Particularly his Nana and him at 8 years old being bullied and made feel guilty for expressing his own happiness.

When I said I wouldn't force him to visit.
That was in regard to not forcing my son to visit a person who often goes out of her way to bully him and treat him like a Pariah.
That if and when he decides that he has had enough of it, I will not force him to keep open a relationship that is one sided and often toxic.
At the end of the day, that will be his decision,and I won't influence him in it but i will talk it through with him and support him in whatever decision he makes.
But that said I'm happy to say that since the OP the situation between them has improved enough so as I can say I'm hopeful she has at least copped on a bit and realised that no matter how deep her grief is...
That he's the child, and that her behaviour towards him was often unacceptable, that she should be supporting him and not berating him.

Its not about me moving on, or him forgetting his family and never has been.
Because honestly that will never happen!
I mean its almost 6yrs since his Mam died and we still have a relationship and still visit 2/3 times a week including a sleepover most weeks.
It's about my son being supported and comfortable in learning to accept his own happiness and his willingness to share that.

To not have an 8yo lumbered with our(both hers and mine) residual guilt,grief and whatever other ****e we are still carrying with us and letting that cloud his interactions and relationships,
Its about teaching him to how to participate in healthy relationships.
How to understand and deal with his own emotions and not project his grief on others.