Breeding Cocker Spaniel female

Irishchick

I never commented on your breeding practices. I said I'm not surprised that you disagree with me because you breed.

Health tested or not you're still bringing pups into the world when there are plenty of loving pups and dogs in shelters that need homes.

It's useless telling people on here not to breed/buy but to adopt when you don't practice what you preach.

andreac

Irishchick wrote: »

I never commented on your breeding practices. I said I'm not surprised that you disagree with me because you breed.

Health tested or not you're still bringing pups into the world when there are plenty of loving pups and dogs in shelters that need homes.

It's useless telling people on here not to breed/buy but to adopt when you don't practice what you preach.

Where did i say anything about adopting??

Sorry but theres a huge difference between breeding responsibly and being a back yard breeder, a huge difference so you cannot compare me to one of those, not in the slightest, and i take huge offence to it too.

The pups that are in shelters are not registered pups and therefore they would not be able to be shown in Championshop dog shows, and thats where most of the dogs that are bred from that im involved go to.

nice_cupotea

so-called pedigree dogs have a high level of inbred diseases and other problems.

we only realised this during the lifetime of our adored boxer dog who died of cancer which we found out later is very common in the boxer breed. the king charles breed have brains which grow too big for their heads and they suffer dreadfully.

so, breeding also produces animals who will suffer more than so-called mongrel or natural dogs - and their average life-expectancy is much shorter too

OldNotWIse

nice_cupotea wrote: »

so-called pedigree dogs have a high level of inbred diseases and other problems.

we only realised this during the lifetime of our adored boxer dog who died of cancer which we found out later is very common in the boxer breed. the king charles breed have brains which grow too big for their heads and they suffer dreadfully.

so, breeding also produces animals who will suffer more than so-called mongrel or natural dogs - and their average life-expectancy is much shorter too

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7569064.stm

So sad

OldNotWIse

andreac wrote: »

Where did i say anything about adopting??

Sorry but theres a huge difference between breeding responsibly and being a back yard breeder, a huge difference so you cannot compare me to one of those, not in the slightest, and i take huge offence to it too.

The pups that are in shelters are not registered pups and therefore they would not be able to be shown in Championshop dog shows, and thats where most of the dogs that are bred from that im involved go to.

I know someone who claims to be a responsible breeder (feck me he even tried to convince me that I am a bad owner). He may come across as "responsible" (in italics because tbh I dont care if you house your dogs in a palace and feed them caviar and the finest nuts accompanied by distilled water followed br woodland romps, any breeding is IMO irresponsible). He recently let one of his beautiful dogs die. Know why? Because she wasn't "perfect" enough for him and he didnt bother registering her. When she was attacked by some of his other dogs, he didnt even bother taking her to the vet. Why? Because it was (in his eyes) a waste of money - she'd never earn it back for him. Breeders only care about money. At the end of the day, the euro comes before the dogs. Anyone who tells you different might be fooling themselves, but they can't fool everyone else.

I love my dog too much to ever contemplate putting her through the pain, risks and possible complications of mating, gestation and birth. And I certainly couldnt sleep at night thinking that I had played a part in the "supply and demand" process that fuels the problem of over population in this country.

TooManyDogs

shaunk85 wrote: »

Is it not a natural progression in any species to want to reproduce and mate! It's natural instinct so therefore not 'letting' her do this is unnatural and denying her of her natural instinct to mate!

It may be a natural instinct to breed but it's not natural for the result of these natural breedings to be exterminated in pounds and vets by the thousand every year.

If you're just wanting to let her follow nature why not just let the first male dog in the street have at her? The result will be the same - natural litter

OldNotWIse

TooManyDogs wrote: »

It may be a natural instinct to breed but it's not natural for the result of these natural breedings to be exterminated in pounds and vets by the thousand every year.

If you're just wanting to let her follow nature why not just let the first male dog in the street have at her? The result will be the same - natural litter

Ah but then the pups wouldnt be worth money :rolleyes:

Irishchick

andreac wrote: »

The pups that are in shelters are not registered pups and therefore they would not be able to be shown in Championshop dog shows, and thats where most of the dogs that are bred from that im involved go to.

Registered or not the result is the same. Puppies that this country doesn't need.

Show dogs (except working dogs) serve no purpose other than to promote the breeding of more pups that we dont need, just because they look a certain way.

ISDW

Irishchick wrote: »

There are enough dogs in the country to keep vet's going for many years. My opinion is that there should be no breeding full stop until we sort out our stray/abandoned population.

I'm not a breeder and I disagree with you. Why should the only dogs available to people be unhealth checked ones? Dogs that probably haven't been properly socialised as pups? What is wrong with somebody breeding a litter properly? Putting the right blood lines together, doing all the genetic tests, socialising the pups properly and having puppy contracts?

It has been discussed on here time and time and time again. The definitely of a reputable breeder is wide open to interpretation. In my opinion, if someone does all the health checks, looks after the bitch properly, looks after the pups properly, medically and socialising etc, has puppy contracts and takes back any dog they bred, for the life of that dog, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. There are breeders here that do that, not many unfortunately, but there are. Their dogs NEVER end up in pounds and shelters needing help.

Pedigree, Registered or not, there are too many dogs in shelters and pounds, and yes,there should be a stop on irresponsible breeding. Instead of which we now have a law that condones puppy farming, as long as you pay your money for the licence. I have 12 dogs, 2 of which I bought, the rest are rescues. Of those, 6 are IKC registered, 2 have been transferred into my name, so technically they could be shown, they've been neutered, but apparently that is now allowed.

Irishchick

The definitely of a reputable breeder is wide open to interpretation.

Exactly, and in my opinion there is no such thing.

Rommie

Irishchick wrote: »

Exactly, and in my opinion there is no such thing.

So how do we continue to have the breeds we have if everyone should stop breeding? Say if breeding was banned for ten years, several breeds could be wiped out in that time, most of the giant breeds at least. Reputable breeder is not the term we should be using. Responsible is the word. Responsible breeders breed from genetically superior dogs who've passed their health tests with flying colours, all pups unintended for show are on neutering contracts and under contract that they MUST be returned if it doesn't work out. The stud and bitch are well looked after, the pups never go wanting and every home is checked out before they can even be considered to rehome one of the pups.

Tranceypoo

Irishchick wrote: »

Not all vets treat large animals. Believe me the hardest person to get payment from can be a farmer. :rolleyes:

Bit of a generalisation!! My husband is a farmer and he always pays his vets bill on time!!

Irishchick

Tranceypoo wrote: »

Bit of a generalisation!! My husband is a farmer and he always pays his vets bill on time!!

I said can..not always

Irishchick

Rommie wrote: »

all pups unintended for show are on neutering contracts and under contract that they MUST be returned if it doesn't work out.

Who's going to enforce this exactly??

So how do we continue to have the breeds we have if everyone should stop breeding

This is my point exactly. Aside from working lines breeds serve no purpose other than to conform to a certain look.

ISDW

Irishchick wrote: »

Exactly, and in my opinion there is no such thing.

Well then you obviously think that as a species, the dog should cease to exist. Pointless really even trying to have a discussion with you as you have a completely closed mind. Someone breeds a litter, parents have been health checked, pups are all very healthy, go to a good homes, live out their lives happily, never see the inside of a pound or rescue shelter but thats wrong. Okey dokey.

Irishchick

I have an opinion, deal with it. If you had to see, treat and put to sleep as many abandoned dogs as I have then you'd be of the same opinion.

Point out to me where I said dogs shouldn't exist? If you read my posts you'd see I have nothing but care and affection for dogs.

Someone breeds a litter, parents have been health checked, pups are all very healthy, go to a good homes, live out their lives happily, never see the inside of a pound or rescue shelter but thats wrong. Okey dokey.

If you think that's what happening the majority of the time in this country then you are just naive. You only have to look into an animal shelter or on done deal to see that.

Ask the next person on street you see with a pedigree dog if it has had the relevant health tests. I can almost guarantee the answer will be no.

shaunk85

andreac wrote: »

Irishchick wrote: »

I never commented on your breeding practices. I said I'm not surprised that you disagree with me because you breed.

Health tested or not you're still bringing pups into the world when there are plenty of loving pups and dogs in shelters that need homes.

It's useless telling people on here not to breed/buy but to adopt when you don't practice what you preach.

Where did i say anything about adopting??

Sorry but theres a huge difference between breeding responsibly and being a back yard breeder, a huge difference so you cannot compare me to one of those, not in the slightest, and i take huge offence to it too.

But it is okay for you to presume I was a backyard breeder and to look down your nose on me without knowing all the facts re my situation!

borderlinemeath

Irishchick wrote: »

I have an opinion, deal with it. If you had to see, treat and put to sleep as many abandoned dogs as I have then you'd be of the same opinion.

Point out to me where I said dogs shouldn't exist? If you read my posts you'd see I have nothing but care and affection for dogs.



If you think that's what happening the majority of the time in this country then you are just naive. You only have to look into an animal shelter or on done deal to see that.

Ask the next person on street you see with a pedigree dog if it has had the relevant health tests. I can almost guarantee the answer will be no.

I think you're being very disingenuous to some of the regular posters here. ISDW (hint is in the name by the way) has more experience with rescue dogs than you may have.

Nobody on this this thread wants unhealthy dogs out there, nowhere has irresponsible breeding been suggested, nor has it been suggested that responsible breeding is widespread.

At this stage the thread has been hijacked. The OP said a few pages back that they are not breeding and haven't been back. Yet you're the one still arguing from what seems to be a very militant standpoint -

I'm a veterinary nurse and in my opinion any breeding is irresponsible breeding. Whether it be a sloppy lovable family pet or a "show" dog. It's no different to me (most vets and nurses will be of the same opinion)

Your way or the highway. And if there is zero breeding then dogs will eventually die out, the shortest lifespans will be extinct first.

ISDW

Irishchick wrote: »

I have an opinion, deal with it. If you had to see, treat and put to sleep as many abandoned dogs as I have then you'd be of the same opinion.

Point out to me where I said dogs shouldn't exist? If you read my posts you'd see I have nothing but care and affection for dogs.



If you think that's what happening the majority of the time in this country then you are just naive. You only have to look into an animal shelter or on done deal to see that.

Ask the next person on street you see with a pedigree dog if it has had the relevant health tests. I can almost guarantee the answer will be no.

You don't believe that anybody should be breeding dogs. If dogs aren't bred, they would cease to exist, its not rocket science.

Do you actually read what people write, or do you only see what you want in people's posts? Please point out where I have said that is what happens the majority of the time? You only have to look at my house to see thats not true, and I know its not true and I have never said it is true, in fact, have said on this very thread that it isn't.

I don't tend to see many people on the streets with dogs, pedigree or not around here. So instead of encouraging healthy dogs, we should just stop breeding them completely?

Poor you, the only person in Ireland that has to deal with welfare issues. Cop on, would you?

ISDW

shaunk85 wrote: »

andreac wrote: »

Where did i say anything about adopting??

Sorry but theres a huge difference between breeding responsibly and being a back yard breeder, a huge difference so you cannot compare me to one of those, not in the slightest, and i take huge offence to it too.

But it is okay for you to presume I was a backyard breeder and to look down your nose on me without knowing all the facts re my situation!

Sorry, its not clear from your post which bit is you, and which is quoting, I'm guessing yours is the last paragraph?

Apologies, but you would be a backyard breeder if you allowed your bitch to breed during this heat. You haven't done any of the necessary genetic health checks etc, You haven't done any research before now into breeding, you don't really know what you're doing, so if you wouldn't be a byb, how would you class what you wanted to do?

DBB

Mod note:
Folks, let's keep it civil. Everyone can express a reasonable opinion without having snarky comments made in response.
This thread is in danger of being closed down for going off topic. Any more unpleasant comments will result in warnings being issued and the thread will be closed.
Thanks,
DBB

Mark Tapley

I don't think a eugenics program for dogs is any more palatable than one for humans would be. What is the point of showing dogs ?

RSPCA Chief Vet Mark Evans called the Crufts show "a parade of mutants" and "a freakish, garish beauty pageant that has frankly nothing to do with health and welfare." He pointed out that breed standards take no account of temperament and fitness for purpose.

Irishchick

Where did I saw it should be stopped forever?? Some of the keyboard warriors on here have an awful habit of trying to put words in people's mouths!

A hault in breeding for a couple of years would allow people who are actually concerned about dogs to try and sort out or stray population.

I deal with this everyday so I have plenty of "cop on" thanks very much. If you have to result to insults just because I have a different opinion then it doesnt say much for you.

ISDW

Irishchick wrote: »

Where did I saw it should be stopped forever?? Some of the keyboard warriors on here have an awful habit of trying to put words in people's mouths!

A hault in breeding for a couple of years would allow people who are actually concerned about dogs to try and sort out or stray population.

I deal with this everyday so I have plenty of "cop on" thanks very much. If you have to result to insults just because I have a different opinion then it doesnt say much for you.

People who are actually concerned? May I ask how many of these stray dogs you personally have in your home?

Can you please just clarify, are you a qualified vet nurse, working in a practice every day?

As for insults, your continued implication that anybody who thinks differently to you has no interest in animal welfare is very insulting. Also please clarify a keyboard warrior, is that someone who only talks about doing things on a computer, instead of actually getting out there and doing them? Please point these people out to me on this thread. Thank you.

ISDW

Mark Tapley wrote: »

I don't think a eugenics program for dogs is any more palatable than one for humans would be. What is the point of showing dogs ?

RSPCA Chief Vet Mark Evans called the Crufts show "a parade of mutants" and "a freakish, garish beauty pageant that has frankly nothing to do with health and welfare." He pointed out that breed standards take no account of temperament and fitness for purpose.

I don't show my dogs, but I can certainly appreciate well bred, healthy dogs who move correctly. I agree that there are huge issues with some breeds and they need to be addressed, all dogs should be fit for purpose. Again though, not everybody who shows their dogs breeds them, a lot of people just like to go along as a social event, they love dogs and dog shows are full of doggy people. Most puppy farmers don't show their dogs, and it is those people that cause the biggest problem.

Kennel clubs can try and change things, but unfortunately there is nothing to stop somebody setting up another registration agency, with less stringent rules on breeding. A lot of people who buy pups with papers, don't actually know what papers they are getting, and which ones they should be getting.

In the real world, dog breeding isn't going to stop, so would it not be better to work to improve it, instead of just saying how awful it is, everyone who breeds a dog is horrible?

I am not a huge fan of the various kennel clubs, but at least they do try to have standards and the UK KC is trying to improve things. I would rather have

DBB

Irishchick wrote: »

A hault in breeding for a couple of years would allow people who are actually concerned about dogs to try and sort out or stray population.

I am curious to know how this could work?
Given that people who know their breeds back to front, who put in oodles of research into their lines, who health test, who raise and socialise their pups in a suitable, conducive-to-pet-dog environment, are not the ones who are responsible for the overpopulation problem by any stretch of the imagination, why should they be prevented from breeding any more dogs?

The dog overpopulation problem is caused primarily by unplanned matings. We know this, because most dogs the end up in pounds, or end up in rescue, are crossbred dogs. So, these are the dogs who were allowed, by their owners, to freely access a mate whilst sexually receptive.

The other huge contributors to the dog overpopulation problem are back yard breeders. Most of these people are already doing what they do without the new dog breeding legislation applying to them, because the vast majority of backyard breeders, who far outnumber puppy farmers, in Ireland have fewer than 6 bitches of reproductive status. The law does not apply to them. But law or not, the production of most pedigree dog breeds in Ireland is akin to being "underground", done with a nod and a wink. And as back yard breeders operate on their own private property, there is nothing that can be done to stop them breeding dogs in pretty large numbers.

So, most unwanted dogs in Ireland come from matings which could not and cannot be controlled for by legislation: a ban simply could never work, nor be enforced. Responsible breeders have almost nothing to do with the overpopulation problem.
In other words, there can be no ban on breeding. Itn is not the answer to the problem.
In fact, if dog owners complied with the existent dog control laws, the number of unwanted dogs in Ireland would decrease hugely, because dogs would not be freely roaming the streets.

In Sweden, for example, there are very few rescue dogs. Their multiplicity of responsible breeders can breed pups with no consequence on an unwanted dog overpopulation. They have barely heard of neuteriong over there, in fact, the practise is widely shunned. Their dog control laws are very, very tight, and owner attitude is very much more responsible than it is here, broadly speaking. They do not have a problem with unwanted dogs. So much so, they have to import them from Ireland.

Finally, I plan to buy a pedigree dog within the next few years. I'm not interested in a show dog, and I never tell people specifically to go to a show breeder, unless I happen to approve of how they raise their pups. I think showing as it is right now is a nonsense, and until dogs are bred towards functional ability, it will always remain so in my eyes. I plan to eventually buy a pup following significant research into the breed that I want, and I will of course go to a responsible breeder. It is nobody else's bloody business to lecture me on whether I do so, as long as I do so ethically. It is, quite frankly, nobody else's business but my own.

Mark Tapley

ISDW wrote: »

I don't show my dogs, but I can certainly appreciate well bred, healthy dogs who move correctly. I agree that there are huge issues with some breeds and they need to be addressed, all dogs should be fit for purpose. Again though, not everybody who shows their dogs breeds them, a lot of people just like to go along as a social event, they love dogs and dog shows are full of doggy people. Most puppy farmers don't show their dogs, and it is those people that cause the biggest problem.

Kennel clubs can try and change things, but unfortunately there is nothing to stop somebody setting up another registration agency, with less stringent rules on breeding. A lot of people who buy pups with papers, don't actually know what papers they are getting, and which ones they should be getting.




In the real world, dog breeding isn't going to stop, so would it not be better to work to improve it, instead of just saying how awful it is, everyone who breeds a dog is horrible?

I am not a huge fan of the various kennel clubs, but at least they do try to have standards and the UK KC is trying to improve things. I would rather have

Seeing my dog tearing down the canal bank and taking a flying leap into the water is a joy to me. I have no idea if she is moving in the "correct" way or not. We meet plenty of "doggy people" who show their affection for their pet by taking them for a long walk.
I would not want people at a show looking down their noses at my dog because she is not "pure".
Myself and Skye (dog) are Mongrels and proud.

ISDW

Mark Tapley wrote: »

Seeing my dog tearing down the canal bank and taking a flying leap into the water is a joy to me. I have no idea if she is moving in the "correct" way or not. We meet plenty of "doggy people" who show their affection for their pet by taking them for a long walk.
I would not want people at a show looking down their noses at my dog because she is not "pure".
Myself and Skye (dog) are Mongrels and proud.

And thats fine that you are proud of her, but why can't other owners be proud of their dogs? Its inverted snobbery - show dogs aren't loved, and aren't nice dogs, only mongrels are. Seriously? What harm is it to you or anyone else if someone wants to spend their spare time at a dog show, hanging out with their friends? As I've said, I don't show my dogs, never have, except for the odd rescue fun show, but I'm not offended or upset by other people wanting to do it, and I have been to some 'proper' dog shows, and in fact even took a crossbreed to one this year - I was delivering some items that a dog shower had bid and won on in a rescue auction - and guess what, not one single person looked down their nose at him or me. Instead he got lots of hugs. Have you ever actually been to a dog show?

Correct movement shows a healthy dog, I thought you wanted to have a proper discussion about the state of some breeds, such as GSDs which in show rings very rarely move correctly.

Mark Tapley

ISDW wrote: »

And thats fine that you are proud of her, but why can't other owners be proud of their dogs? Its inverted snobbery - show dogs aren't loved, and aren't nice dogs, only mongrels are. Seriously? What harm is it to you or anyone else if someone wants to spend their spare time at a dog show, hanging out with their friends? As I've said, I don't show my dogs, never have, except for the odd rescue fun show, but I'm not offended or upset by other people wanting to do it, and I have been to some 'proper' dog shows, and in fact even took a crossbreed to one this year - I was delivering some items that a dog shower had bid and won on in a rescue auction - and guess what, not one single person looked down their nose at him or me. Instead he got lots of hugs. Have you ever actually been to a dog show?

Correct movement shows a healthy dog, I thought you wanted to have a proper discussion about the state of some breeds, such as GSDs which in show rings very rarely move correctly.

You seem to be finding things in my post that didn't write. "show dogs aren't loved, and aren't nice dogs, only mongrels are." I have no problem with the dogs apart from concern for their welfare. It is the owners whose motives I find suspect. I wonder what they are proud of in their dog. Is it that the dog conforms to a certain standard or appearance .I am sure there is more to it than that but that is part of it.Do people want a fancy dog to go with their fancy car?
I would not suggest that people who have purebred dogs do not love them but I would question why they would chose to get a specific breed of dog and not rehome a dog in need.
I have not been to a dog show as I believe they focus to much on breeds.
I was not trying to have a discussion about "the state of some breeds" . I do question the need to maintain strict breeds at all.
Did the crossbreed dog you took to the show win any prizes ?

alroley

Irishchick wrote: »

There are enough dogs in the country to keep vet's going for many years. My opinion is that there should be no breeding full stop until we sort out our stray/abandoned population.

I do have a rescue dog but completely disagree with this.
Breeding(by reputable show breeders) is needed to keep improving the breed.
Some people might want a specific breed from specific lines and want to know their dogs history - why should they feel bad about wanting that instead of a rescue? It's their choice and they are entitled to it.

It's puppy farmers and back yard breeders that are putting dogs in shelters.