Hourly Rates for Legal Advice

Eyepatch

I'm seeking to hire a solicitor. I understand there is a huge variation in the hourly rates charged by different firms.

Can anyone give me some idea of what I can expect to pay on an hourly basis?

How can I know how many hours the work has taken?

Also, is it better to pay by the hour or arrange an estimated total fee in advance for the work that may be involved?

In other words, can they charge the earth and I have no come-back?

Many thanks in advance for any help you can give.

ResearchWill

Cheapest I have seen about €100 most expensive €500. Yes you can agree on a hourly rate and how time is calculated some will bill in 15 min chunks so if you ring up for 5 min chat expect 15 mins to be recorded.

It amazes me that more solicitors don't arrange interim billing day when it hits €500 get a bill and work stops till you see if this is worth going on.

Also if the solicitor does a lot of work in the field he or she may be happy to do a set fee, Ashe knows the average time it takes.

Also it's worth remembering the guy charging 100 may in fact be making more money than the guy charging 500, in that the first guys overheads are way lower.

qz

Just bear in mind, legal advice is expensive, but cheap legal advice is really expensive.

Eyepatch

Thank you for that, ResearchWill. You've given me what seems like a good yard-stick to go by. What concerns me it that is seems like it can be quite arbitrary as to how they calculate the number of hours it takes to bring a case to completion.

qz wrote: »

Just bear in mind, legal advice is expensive, but cheap legal advice is really expensive.

Sounds like a wise observation, Qz! Thank you!

I've had experience with a number of solicitors and I find their rates vary immensely.

It's a pity nothing came be done to lay down standard rates.

Procrastastudy

Eyepatch wrote: »

It's a pity nothing came be done to lay down standard rates.

Why? If I go to a 5 star hotel I pay a different price to a B&B. Lawyers are exactly the same.

ResearchWill

Eyepatch wrote: »

Thank you for that, ResearchWill. You've given me what seems like a good yard-stick to go by. What concerns me it that is seems like it can be quite arbitrary as to how they calculate the number of hours it takes to bring a case to completion.




Sounds like a wise observation, Qz! Thank you!

I've had experience with a number of solicitors and I find their rates vary immensely.

It's a pity nothing came be done to lay down standard rates.

Standard hourly rates would be anti competitive. I can get a hotel room in Dublin for €39.99 or I can pay in the Westin €1,400 a night for presidential suite. If you want to use a big Dublin firm with a fancy office and hundreds of staff then expect to pay for it if you want to use a guy who's office is in his house with no staff he can.

If a standard rate was set it would have to be the highest or a lot of firm would go bust. Also worth remembering when a solicitor does and hours work there is prob another hour support staff do that is included in the rate.

Milk & Honey

Eyepatch wrote: »

Thank you for that, ResearchWill. You've given me what seems like a good yard-stick to go by. What concerns me it that is seems like it can be quite arbitrary as to how they calculate the number of hours it takes to bring a case to completion.




Sounds like a wise observation, Qz! Thank you!

I've had experience with a number of solicitors and I find their rates vary immensely.

It's a pity nothing came be done to lay down standard rates.

It is impossible to predict what work is entailed in advance of starting a case. Some solicitors have a large staff and a big office. Some operate from a room at home. Some work needs a big fir and some can be done by a small outfit. It is usually possible to get an opinion for a fixed fee.
Fees can be taxed in the event of a dispute, but something that might seem small can be expensive.

ynotonavillus

Some of the cheapest advice/ services I ever obtained was from a top Dublin firm, they charged €2,200 for some advice and for putting it on paper.

It concerned a complicated conciliation, we had to pay half of the Conciliators fees, including his legal advice costs, he had paid €5,000 for advice from a medium sized Cork firm, just for looking at the advice and saying that it appeared to be correct......

One firm looked at the work that they actually did and billed fairly, the other firm considered the value of the situation and how much they could get a way with charging....

I have only ever sought an estimate for a conveyancing, and even then one overcharged me by 75% and denied the quote meant what it clearly said, I had to pay up as they were handling another matter for me and I needed them onside.

I took conveyancing work to another firm who without seeking a quote charged me less then the quote from the original firm, that firm has handled many things for me and I have always been happy with the final bill...

I think it is really a lottery, but my experience is that the best in many fields of endeavor are usually not the most expensive, often because they like doing the work and are very efficient at getting it done.

So the cheaper option may not necessarily be the worst option.......

Eyepatch

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Why? If I go to a 5 star hotel I pay a different price to a B&B. Lawyers are exactly the same.

Sorry, Procrastastudy! I'm talking about solicitors in this particular thread. Have not mentioned lawyers. Also I am not aware there is a Star rating that can be accessed when choosing lawyers or solicitors! - half joking, whole in earnest!

ResearchWill

Eyepatch wrote: »

Sorry, Procrastastudy! I'm talking about solicitors in this particular thread. Have not mentioned lawyers. Also I am not aware there is a Star rating that can be accessed when choosing lawyers or solicitors! - half joking, whole in earnest!

If a solicitor is not a lawyer what is he or she. A lawyer is a generic term for any person who practises law be they counsel, solicitor or Attorney.

While there is no official rating system for lawyers or more particularly solicitors, if I was accused of a serious crime in the morning the solicitor I would prefer would be the one that practises in the area a lot, who is very good as he or she is good then more people will want their service then supply and demand kicks in.

There are some solicitors and barristers who can charge more based on the fact they are very good.

Eyepatch

ResearchWill wrote: »

Standard hourly rates would be anti competitive. I can get a hotel room in Dublin for €39.99 or I can pay in the Westin €1,400 a night for presidential suite. If you want to use a big Dublin firm with a fancy office and hundreds of staff then expect to pay for it if you want to use a guy who's office is in his house with no staff he can.

If a standard rate was set it would have to be the highest or a lot of firm would go bust. Also worth remembering when a solicitor does and hours work there is prob another hour support staff do that is included in the rate.

I get your points, ResearchWill. I don't mean necessarily just one standard rate, but maybe some way of it being possible to see what you are getting by way of pricing and make comparisons.

On two occasions, before going into hospital, I made a will with two different solicitors. One charged me $200, and did not do a very satisfactory job. The 2nd one, who did a much better job, charged only $75. My jaw dropped, when he said that, as he had spent a lot more time with me, and was much more efficient than the first.

Eyepatch

Milk & Honey wrote: »

It is impossible to predict what work is entailed in advance of starting a case. Some solicitors have a large staff and a big office. Some operate from a room at home. Some work needs a big fir and some can be done by a small outfit. It is usually possible to get an opinion for a fixed fee.
Fees can be taxed in the event of a dispute, but something that might seem small can be expensive.

Thanks, Milk & Honey! They may have a large staff, a big office and a few partners in the practice, but at the end of the day, you are working with just one of the solicitors in the practice, if it is a relatively small case, and the most they are working with, probably is one secretary. So why should I be paying for the whole establishment. I would hope that the amount of other business they get in would justify the prices they charge and the amount of staff they hire.

ResearchWill

Eyepatch wrote: »

I get your points, ResearchWill. I don't mean necessarily just one standard rate, but maybe some way of it being possible to see what you are getting by way of pricing and make comparisons.

On two occasions, before going into hospital, I made a will with two different solicitors. One charged me $200, and did not do a very satisfactory job. The 2nd one, who did a much better job, charged only $75. My jaw dropped, when he said that, as he had spent a lot more time with me, and was much more efficient than the first.

I agree totally, about your point on fees. But the general public must be more proactive. Ask simple questions, make sure solicitor sets out exactly how he is going to charge and most importantly walking away if not sure. I often wonder why solicitors do work for clients and fair to the solicitors do a good job and then issue a bill for half a years salary for the client. It's both the doliciyors and the clients fault. Like all areas of life high cost is not always better. I know a solicitor who is prob in the best 3 in his area he also charges a lot, he has often had to come in to fix other guys mess ups where that other solicitor has charged way more than my mate would have ever charged. The same solicitor loses clients because he is so up front about fees, sets out exactly how he is going to charge and how much the bill will be.

Once the client knows the info then it's up to the client to decide if they really need a solicitor.

Eyepatch

ynotonavillus wrote: »

........ I think it is really a lottery, but my experience is that the best in many fields of endeavor are usually not the most expensive, often because they like doing the work and are very efficient at getting it done.

So the cheaper option may not necessarily be the worst option.......

Thank you for that detailed reply, Ynotonavillus. When you say it is "really a lottery", I think you hit the name on the head!

In your case, you seem to have a lot of business that may need the services of a law firm, but I think the person, who really suffers, is a person like me, who is dealing with a once-off situation.

ResearchWill

Eyepatch wrote: »

I get your points, ResearchWill. I don't mean necessarily just one standard rate, but maybe some way of it being possible to see what you are getting by way of pricing and make comparisons.

On two occasions, before going into hospital, I made a will with two different solicitors. One charged me $200, and did not do a very satisfactory job. The 2nd one, who did a much better job, charged only $75. My jaw dropped, when he said that, as he had spent a lot more time with me, and was much more efficient than the first.

Eyepatch wrote: »

Thank you for that detailed reply, Ynotonavillus. When you say it is "really a lottery", I think you hit the name on the head!

In your case, you seem to have a lot of business that may need the services of a law firm, but I think the person, who really suffers, is a person like me, who is dealing with a once-off situation.

Then ask around ask who does good work who is good to get on with. Set what your happy to pay. Most importantly once all agreed and solicitor is instructed step back and let him deal with it, nothing is going to run up a bill more than the client who rigs every day.

Eyepatch

ResearchWill wrote: »

I agree totally, about your point on fees. But the general public must be more proactive. Ask simple questions, make sure solicitor sets out exactly how he is going to charge and most importantly walking away if not sure. I often wonder why solicitors do work for clients and fair to the solicitors do a good job and then issue a bill for half a years salary for the client. It's both the doliciyors and the clients fault. Like all areas of life high cost is not always better. I know a solicitor who is prob in the best 3 in his area he also charges a lot, he has often had to come in to fix other guys mess ups where that other solicitor has charged way more than my mate would have ever charged. The same solicitor loses clients because he is so up front about fees, sets out exactly how he is going to charge and how much the bill will be.

Once the client knows the info then it's up to the client to decide if they really need a solicitor.

Once again, ResearchWill, you are making a lot of sense. when you say:

But the general public must be more proactive. Ask simple questions, make sure solicitor sets out exactly how he is going to charge and most importantly walking away if not sure.

I think you have highlighted a good point - that members of the general public do not have clue, as to what they are walking into - my interpretation!

I have never asked a solicitor, what it was going to cost, believing that they would charge something that was reasonable and fair for the work done. I am learning fast that this is not the case. I think the bottom line, with some is, they take you for what they think they can get.

I'm coming round to thinking there should be some form of regulation where fees are concerned and some form of transparency, open to members of the public who are faced with choosing a solicitor.

Again, we're back to that old reliable - word of mouth, I think.

Thanks again, ResearchWill

Eyepatch

Research Will wrote: »

If a solicitor is not a lawyer what is he or she. A lawyer is a generic term for any person who practises law be they counsel, solicitor or Attorney.

While there is no official rating system for lawyers or more particularly solicitors, if I was accused of a serious crime in the morning the solicitor I would prefer would be the one that practises in the area a lot, who is very good as he or she is good then more people will want their service then supply and demand kicks in.

There are some solicitors and barristers who can charge more based on the fact they are very good.

Let met clarify, ResearchWill, I am discussing solicitor's fees, not lawyer's fees. I am well aware there is a difference in this country between a lawyer and a solicitor. Maybe the term lawyer can be a generic term for everybody practicing law, but I would wish to keep this more specific, as it is solicitors and not lawyers/barristers I am dealing with.

I take your point about inquiring around. Again the average"joe soap" does not even have contacts who have lots of experience with dealing with solicitors who can give opinions comparing solicitors in the area.

I have taken recommendations from two different people regarding the two solicitors I mentioned above, who made wills for me. In the case of the first one, who charged EU200 and did not do such a good job, I had asked my local Building Society Manager. Her reply was "Oh, they're all equally good in this area" - so I picked one at random - to my cost. The 2nd one was recommended by a friend, who had worked in life insurance and knew this person from experience. I was pleased with him, and he was reasonable, but when something else came up, he didn't seem to want to take it on. So I am forced, once again, to seek elsewhere!

I am learning, though!

Eyepatch

ResearchWill wrote: »

Then ask around ask who does good work who is good to get on with. Set what your happy to pay. Most importantly once all agreed and solicitor is instructed step back and let him deal with it, nothing is going to run up a bill more than the client who rigs every day.

Thank you, ResearchWill! I think I had missed this post when replying to others. I like your advice. Very practical and down to earth. I am learning to be more proactive, as you say!

Glad I sought advice here on Boards.ie.

Procrastastudy

Solicitors are lawyers as are Barristers. You want to limit the discussion to that species of lawyer known as a solicitor.

ResearchWill

Eyepatch wrote: »

Once again, ResearchWill, you are making a lot of sense. when you say:



I think you have highlighted a good point - that members of the general public do not have clue, as to what they are walking into - my interpretation!

I have never asked a solicitor, what it was going to cost, believing that they would charge something that was reasonable and fair for the work done. I am learning fast that this is not the case. I think the bottom line, with some is, they take you for what they think they can get.

I'm coming round to thinking there should be some form of regulation where fees are concerned and some form of transparency, open to members of the public who are faced with choosing a solicitor.

Again, we're back to that old reliable - word of mouth, I think.

Thanks again, ResearchWill

Solicitors are more regulated than almost any other profession. There is a whole office of the Gigh Court dedicated to the taxation of costs, if a person is not happy with any bill they can get those costs taxed. It's often not the solicitor taking as much as he can its a total misunderstanding of how much things will costs. While I believe the GP should be more proactive I also think solicitors should be very upfront with costs. Often people undertake legal action a good example being family law, with no idea what it's going to cost. I have seen people instruct their legal team to run up thousands in costs to only get hundreds of euro from the ex madness. While some would say well he or she should pay its mad to spend more money than you can get.

Milk & Honey

Eyepatch wrote: »

Thanks, Milk & Honey! They may have a large staff, a big office and a few partners in the practice, but at the end of the day, you are working with just one of the solicitors in the practice, if it is a relatively small case, and the most they are working with, probably is one secretary. So why should I be paying for the whole establishment. I would hope that the amount of other business they get in would justify the prices they charge and the amount of staff they hire.

You will be dealing with one solicitor who will be expected to pull in fees for the practice. The overheads of the practice have to come out of fee income.Everything from the window cleaning to the toner in the photocopier have to be paid for before any of the partners get a penny for themselves. Bigger firms will be more bureaucratic and procedural and will waste no opportunity to get their income up. Taking a 5 minute phone call will involve dictating a telephone attendance note, proof reading it and posting it back to the client and filing it. A few hundred euro on the bill! In adversarial litigation it is impossible to predict costs. If the other side are awkward and messing around a lot of expensive time can be involved.
It is all down to reputation. Even if you insist on everything in writing as regards costs, something will always happen that wasn't included and the price will skyrocket. It is easy for a hard nosed solicitor to drive up his fees and justify it.

Eyepatch

wrote: »

Solicitors are lawyers as are Barristers. You want to limit the discussion to that species of lawyer known as a solicitor.

As you say, Procrastastudy.

Eyepatch

ResearchWill wrote: »

Solicitors are more regulated than almost any other profession. There is a whole office of the Gigh Court dedicated to the taxation of costs, if a person is not happy with any bill they can get those costs taxed. It's often not the solicitor taking as much as he can its a total misunderstanding of how much things will costs. While I believe the GP should be more proactive I also think solicitors should be very upfront with costs. Often people undertake legal action a good example being family law, with no idea what it's going to cost. I have seen people instruct their legal team to run up thousands in costs to only get hundreds of euro from the ex madness. While some would say well he or she should pay its mad to spend more money than you can get.

It's crazy. I watch that TV program The Will. (We're talking Lawyers/Barristers here! ) Almost invariably the unfortunate beneficiaries are, more or less, cleaned out, when it's all over.

Eyepatch

Milk & Honey wrote: »

You will be dealing with one solicitor who will be expected to pull in fees for the practice. The overheads of the practice have to come out of fee income.Everything from the window cleaning to the toner in the photocopier have to be paid for before any of the partners get a penny for themselves. Bigger firms will be more bureaucratic and procedural and will waste no opportunity to get their income up. Taking a 5 minute phone call will involve dictating a telephone attendance note, proof reading it and posting it back to the client and filing it. A few hundred euro on the bill! In adversarial litigation it is impossible to predict costs. If the other side are awkward and messing around a lot of expensive time can be involved.
It is all down to reputation. Even if you insist on everything in writing as regards costs, something will always happen that wasn't included and the price will skyrocket. It is easy for a hard nosed solicitor to drive up his fees and justify it.

You seem to know what you're talking about, Milk & Honey! What I'm picking up from all of this, is first of all, take a look at the establishment they are operating out of. 2ndly, to ask for some sort of estimate as to how much money is going to be involved, in total, if possible, as a rough guide, before committing to proceeding with the case. There are obviously many pitfalls along the way.

Many thanks, Milk & Honey