Would we be better off without a minimum wage?

Gauss

From my understanding of economics there's a strong argument that we'd be better off without a minimum wage.

Firstly, there would be less unemployment due the reduced wages overhead for businesses, also there would be more businesses to employ workers as more projects and businesses would be feasible with cheaper labour costs.

Secondly, it would improve our competitiveness as prices would drop due to greater efficiency, this in turn could attract more foreign investment benefiting our economy.

mikemac1

We're long past that stage OP

Minimum wage jobs like hotel jobs or supermarket floor staff have been turned into free labour

Employers don't even need to pay minimum wage anymore to create "jobs"

Logical Fallacy

Not really, as it would simply have a higher proportion of the population in the "poor" bracket and the "working poor" bracket would increase greatly as the vast majority of businesses would seek to slash wages of their existing work force and hire on new people for basically nothing.

What makes any economy strong is the amount of disposable income the average person has. The more money we can spend on pointless **** the better for all concerned.

Fukuyama

As a minimum wage worker, I think more people would be inclined to put the thinking caps on and start creating jobs and opportunities.

There's a lot of people more than happy to tick over on the minimum wage, go drinking on the weekend and sustain a week-by-week lifestyle.

Zab

I suspect this would make the poor poorer and the rich richer.

mikemac1

Irish Hotel Federation just adore your idea OP

Gauss

Zab wrote: »

I suspect this would make the poor poorer and the rich richer.

I suspect this would make the poor richer and the rich richer.

Gauss

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Not really, as it would simply have a higher proportion of the population in the "poor" bracket and the "working poor" bracket would increase greatly as the vast majority of businesses would seek to slash wages of their existing work force and hire on new people for basically nothing.

What makes any economy strong is the amount of disposable income the average person has. The more money we can spend on pointless **** the better for all]

Why are such a low percentage of employees on the minimum wage if business are so keen to slash wages?

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10006562.shtml

Zillah

Gauss wrote: »

I suspect this would make the poor richer and the rich richer.

Make the poor richer by paying them less. Perfect! Why didn't we think of this before?! Romney should trot this out at the next gormless conservative convention.

Gauss

Zillah wrote: »

Gauss wrote: »

I suspect this would make the poor richer and the rich richer.

Make the poor richer by paying them less. Perfect! Why didn't we think of this before?! Romney should trot this out at the next gormless conservative convention.

Do you not agree its better to have people in jobs rather than on the dole?

You can't climb the ladder when aren't on it. Long run this could be better for our society. Also don't forget prices would be reduced so many low earners people would have more purchasing power.

K3lso

Of course we would, anyone opposed to that economic logic is no doubt a union member fearing for the jobs and stopping other people getting hired.

galwayrush

As a self employed person, there are lots of times when i would love to take home a mimum wage.

kneemos

galwayrush wrote: »

As a self employed person, there are lots of times when i would love to take home a mimum wage.

I bet you work sixteen hours a day sometimes.

galwayrush

kneemos wrote: »

I bet you work sixteen hours a day sometimes.

Way too often...

I think you've missed the point of the minimum wage. Of course all that stuff you mention is great, for the employer. What about the workers? Would you like to work for 2 euro an hour in a country where the cost of living is as high as it is in Ireland?

Zillah

Gauss wrote: »

Do you not agree its better to have people in jobs rather than on the dole?

Nope, not for a second. If the price of getting a few people off the dole is an enduring system of exploitation, no, I would much rather we have them on the dole for a while longer.

Also don't forget prices would be reduced so many low earners people would have more purchasing power.

No, they wouldn't. Employers would turn the increased profit margins into increased profits. This has been shown time and time again. Companies do not pass savings on to the public unless they absolutely have to. Just look at the US; you've got people working far more than a full week in two or three different jobs and barely managing to cover their bills. Exploiting the weak is always tempting when we need to make grand changes, but I for one am very happy we live in a society that shields the poor from the predation of the powerful.

another question

Eliminating the minimum wage...that would be insane. You would never get anyone off the dole. €8.65*37.5 hours week, less income tax, prise, usc, petrol to and from work, child minding fees, daily lunches, losing your medical card and rent allowance or fis payment...are you for real...better off on the dole as it is without suggesting no minimum wage at all.

RayM

If there was no minimum wage, the right-wing fallacy that social welfare is more lucrative than unskilled or entry-level work would inevitably become a reality... Unless, of course, social welfare was cut too. And let's face it - the sort of people who want the minimum wage abolished are, without exception, the very same people who think social welfare recipients are leading lives of luxury.

Without the minimum wage, the poor would be poorer. Anyone who says otherwise is either a liar or a ridiculous optimist.

K3lso

another question wrote: »

Eliminating the minimum wage...that would be insane. You would never get anyone off the dole. €8.65*37.5 hours week, less income tax, prise, usc, petrol to and from work, child minding fees, daily lunches, losing your medical card and rent allowance or fis payment...are you for real...better off on the dole as it is without suggesting no minimum wage at all.

Who said anything about keeping the massive welfare state?

How on earth can you shift people from productive work in the private sector to unproductive dole queues and think it would be a recipe for a healthy economy?!

kodoherty93

Germany doesn't have a minimum wage and most workers in factories earn around €600-700 per month but are told you will have a job till 2016 and therefore you won't get a wage increase.

This has resulted in Germany still being able to make goods that if it was in the us they would be made in china. However Germany's social welfare system is not very attractive ensuing people will work


Reducing the minimum wage here in Ireland would be counter productive for getting people off welfare as welfare is too attractive. To abolish the minimum wage there would have to be large cuts to social welfare.

Gauss

Zillah wrote: »

Gauss wrote: »

Do you not agree its better to have people in jobs rather than on the dole?

Nope, not for a second. If the price of getting a few people off the dole is an enduring system of exploitation, no, I would much rather we have them on the dole for a while longer.

Also don't forget prices would be reduced so many low earners people would have more purchasing power.

No, they wouldn't. Employers would turn the increased profit margins into increased profits. This has been shown time and time again. Companies do not pass savings on to the public unless they absolutely have to. Just look at the US; you've got people working far more than a full week in two or three different jobs and barely managing to cover their bills. Exploiting the weak is always tempting when we need to make grand changes, but I for one am very happy we live in a society that shields the poor from the predation of the powerful.

Only a small percentage of employees are on minimum wage. Why aren't all the employers slashing wages then?

mikemac1

Is Johnny the kitchen porter down the local hotel going to be let go as they found a Latvian who will do the job for 4 euro an hour?

Where's the job creation OP?

Gauss

Cora Sour Marriage wrote: »

I think you've missed the point of the minimum wage. Of course all that stuff you mention is great, for the employer. What about the workers? Would you like to work for 2 euro an hour in a country where the cost of living is as high as it is in Ireland?

Prices would drop. You would get more for your euro.

DonkeyStyle \o/

Gauss wrote: »

Also don't forget prices would be reduced so many low earners people would have more purchasing power.

What about imported goods? Unless we produce everything we consume, I don't see how that works, at least across the board.

another question

K3lso wrote: »

Who said anything about keeping the massive welfare state?

How on earth can you shift people from productive work in the private sector to unproductive dole queues and think it would be a recipe for a healthy economy?!

Interesting...and I wonder 'how on earth can you' expect people to LIVE productively in an economy where food is 3 times higher in price than most other EU countries? And in an economy where it is near impossible to buy a house?....Less welfare and less earning = less money to spend = a never ending decreasing economy.

Gauss

Why do people think it's exploitation to offer a low wage? If you don't like it fukc off and start your own business with high wages.

K3lso

mikemac1 wrote: »

Is Johnny the kitchen porter down the local hotel going to be let go as they found a Latvian who will do the job for 4 euro an hour?

Where's the job creation OP?

The job creation allows the businessman to pay for two people instead of one at the minimum wage level. Therefore, he has room to maneuver to take countless people with countless benefits not least the fact that we get a better service as consumers with two people working the shop rather than one and that investment can return back into the system. Also, the businessman can hire huge amounts of people that would in turn gain skills to be promoted or find other employment - something that they cannot do now.

K3lso

another question wrote: »

Interesting...and I wonder 'how on earth can you' expect people to LIVE productively in an economy where food is 3 times higher in price than most other EU countries? And in an economy where it is near impossible to buy a house?....Less welfare and less earning = less money to spend = a never ending decreasing economy.

And you think you can eliminate problems by simply increasing the wage levels?

LOL.

The reason the cost of living is high is because the businessman passes the extra money he needs to pay worker onto his customers....

FFS.

mav79

A wage cap for all workers would probably save companies more money than getting rid of minimum wage.

PseudoFamous

Gauss wrote: »

Why do people think it's exploitation to offer a low wage? If you don't like it fukc off and start your own business with high wages.

It's exploitation to offer a wage that does not pay for the cost of living and then some recreation. €4 an hour, for example, is too low to support living in Ireland.

How much do you earn, exactly?

Gauss

Gauss wrote: »

Prices would drop. You would get more for your euro.

I doubt that. Have you ever been to a developed country with a low minimum wage? The poor get poorer and the rich get richer. There are plenty of people working in New York City for just a few dollars an hour - do you think prices drop for them? No, they still pay the same subway fares and grocery prices as everyone else. Here in Spain, the situation is similar. Loads of people living in poverty because the minimum wage and level at which the State assists you isn't in line with the cost of living.

Zillah

Gauss wrote: »

Why do people think it's exploitation to offer a low wage? If you don't like it fukc off and start your own business with high wages.

How quickly your mask slips.

K3lso

Cora Sour Marriage wrote: »

I doubt that. Have you ever been to a developed country with a low minimum wage? The poor get poorer and the rich get richer. There are plenty of people working in New York City for just a few dollars an hour - do you think prices drop for them? No, they still pay the same subway fares and grocery prices as everyone else. Here in Spain, the situation is similar. Loads of people living in poverty because the minimum wage and level at which the State assists you isn't in line with the cost of living.

The rapid rise in inflation has to do with the bogus fiat money we're working with. Come back in a few years and see how many batches of bread you can buy with 5Euro....

Gauss

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Gauss wrote: »

Why do people think it's exploitation to offer a low wage? If you don't like it fukc off and start your own business with high wages.

It's exploitation to offer a wage that does not pay for the cost of living and then some recreation. €4 an hour, for example, is too low to support living in Ireland.

How much do you earn, exactly?

My wage is irrelevant.

Maybe it's exploitation to force a risk taking job creator to pay people more than they are worth to the business.

Zillah

kodoherty93 wrote: »

Germany doesn't have a minimum wage and most workers in factories earn around €600-700 per month but are told you will have a job till 2016 and therefore you won't get a wage increase.

There are a number of employment types for which a minimum wage is enforced. There are also legally binding agreements between industry and unions, which functions effectively as a minimum wage. It is nothing like the libertarian proposal the OP is making.

another question

K3lso wrote: »

And you think you can eliminate problems by simply increasing the wage levels?

LOL.

The reason the cost of living is high is because the businessman passes the extra money he needs to pay worker onto his customers....

FFS.

Eh no, I don't agree with that at all...the businessman passes the extra money onto his customers during the celtic tiger...when he could! and now he can't afford to charge any less as he won't be able to pay his workers more like! FFS yourself.

People in this country cannot survive on anything less than what the dole is at the moment, the only incentive to get them out of the system is the increase wages as an incentive to work. The more people earn, the more they will spend...that is simple economics.

I think it is clear to assume that you are not on the dole, as you estimate how you would pay rent/mortgage, bills, grocery shopping etc out of a MAXIMUM of €188 a week.

Shryke

That would mean a person working 2 jobs to stay afloat, potentially working a 50-60 hour week in order to make a decent living on peanuts in an overpriced country suffering massive economic turmoil.
Overtime isn't given, you just get more staff with less hours and now less pay. I can't understand the dumb corporate (conservative) kiss ass attitude some people have that would see a new class of low paid slaves created in society in order to pad out job/employment figures. It's just delusional.
Minimum wage is there to protect people.
A minimum wage that allows for spending puts money back into the economy. That's stimulus. That's a good thing.
No minimum wage doesn't mean more jobs will be created. Business isn't looking to employ as many as possible. More positions don't get created for the craic. Removing minimum wage doesn't cause any higher up positions to be created certainly, it would only (theoretically and incorrectly) free up lower level positions and menial work like shelf stacking. But it wouldn't. If it takes 2 people to do a job and minimum wage is abolished it still takes 2 people, but now they come cheaper and a business gets to save money. Anyone that thinks any other possibility could be the norm is just innocent/naive.
No minimum wage means more poverty for the poor and more money saved for Mr. Moneybags.

scamalert

kodoherty93 wrote: »

Germany doesn't have a minimum wage and most workers in factories earn around €600-700 per month but are told you will have a job till 2016 and therefore you won't get a wage increase.

This has resulted in Germany still being able to make goods that if it was in the us they would be made in china. However Germany's social welfare system is not very attractive ensuing people will work


Reducing the minimum wage here in Ireland would be counter productive for getting people off welfare as welfare is too attractive. To abolish the minimum wage there would have to be large cuts to social welfare.

Well you compare Germany to Ireland,two different economies,Germans have manufacturing power,making vehicles and other hi tech equipment and items,where Ireland could compete maybe in potato sector at best.
You could hardly compare GB to Germany.And as for OP if there wasn't minimum wage then i dont see any Irish having jobs in sectors below engineering,as all jobs would be taken by other nationals who wouldn't bother working for 4 euro as mentioned above,so how does that add to job creation ?When you would be screwed from all sides,as employer would tell you to F*** off because there would be line of 200 foreigners willing to do same job for far less.
Must be weed Sunday today

Gauss

Zillah wrote: »

Gauss wrote: »

Why do people think it's exploitation to offer a low wage? If you don't like it fukc off and start your own business with high wages.

How quickly your mask slips.

I think the language was necessary to highlight the levels of entitlement in this country. I am not an employer, but I think we give far too little respect in this country to those who create jobs.

K3lso

K3lso wrote: »

The rapid rise in inflation has to do with the bogus fiat money we're working with. Come back in a few years and see how many batches of bread you can buy with 5Euro....

And this is different to Spain how? I'm sure the cost of living here will drop in the next few years. That's not much help to Maria and Jose who are trying to support a family on 700 eur/month and getting all their food from the soup kitchen.

Pherekydes

Gauss wrote: »

Firstly, there would be less unemployment due the reduced wages overhead for businesses, also there would be more businesses to employ workers as more projects and businesses would be feasible with cheaper labour costs.

There would be more unemployment, because many of these new jobs would be taken by people coming here from very poor countries and they would be prepared to work for far less.

Gauss wrote: »

I suspect this would make the poor richer and the rich richer.

Poverty is relative. If the rich get richer, the poor get poorer because those with purchasing power drive the cost of living up.

K3lso

another question wrote: »

Eh no, I don't agree with that at all...the businessman passes the extra money onto his customers during the celtic tiger...when he could! and now he can't afford to charge any less as he won't be able to pay his workers more like! FFS yourself.

People in this country cannot survive on anything less than what the dole is at the moment, the only incentive to get them out of the system is the increase wages as an incentive to work. The more people earn, the more they will spend...that is simple economics.

I think it is clear to assume that you are not on the dole, as you estimate how you would pay rent/mortgage, bills, grocery shopping etc out of a MAXIMUM of €188 a week.

And you by default think that it's the guy that lives up the streets job to provide everything for you?! Your first paragraph doesn't challenge my post in any way. The people in this country cannot survive because you have a central bank debasing your currency. And on what planet can you justify holding other people ransom when you say "the only incentive to get them to work"...for crying out loud...as if a welfare state was god given.

Here's an incentive for you to get back to work - abolish income taxes.

Paulzx

K3lso wrote: »

The job creation allows the businessman to pay for two people instead of one at the minimum wage level. Therefore, he has room to maneuver to take countless people with countless benefits not least the fact that we get a better service as consumers with two people working the shop rather than one and that investment can return back into the system. Also, the businessman can hire huge amounts of people that would in turn gain skills to be promoted or find other employment - something that they cannot do now.

Thats not how it would work.

If a resteraunt has 50 customers a night and requires 3 waitresses to serve them at minimum wage why would the owner take on 6 waitresses at half the wages if the minimum wage was abolished. The same amount of customers still needs to be served and only 3 waitresses are required to this this irrespective of what you pay them.

Why would a businessman employ "huge" amounts of people if he doesn't have the work for them?

A business is not a charity and will pay and employ the minimum it can which at present is the minimum wage

Gauss

Shryke wrote: »

That would mean a person working 2 jobs to stay afloat, potentially working a 50-60 hour week in order to make a decent living on peanuts in an overpriced country suffering massive economic turmoil.
Overtime isn't given, you just get more staff with less hours and now less pay. I can't understand the dumb corporate (conservative) kiss ass attitude some people have that would see a new class of low paid slaves created in society in order to pad out job/employment figures. It's just delusional.
Minimum wage is there to protect people.
A minimum wage that allows for spending puts money back into the economy. That's stimulus. That's a good thing.
No minimum wage doesn't mean more jobs will be created. Business isn't looking to employ as many as possible. More positions don't get created for the craic. Removing minimum wage doesn't cause any higher up positions to be created certainly, it would only (theoretically and incorrectly) free up lower level positions and menial work like shelf stacking. But it wouldn't. If it takes 2 people to do a job and minimum wage is abolished it still takes 2 people, but now they come cheaper and a business gets to save money. Anyone that thinks any other possibility could be the norm is just innocent/naive.
No minimum wage means more poverty for the poor and more money saved for Mr. Moneybags.

The business saves money, the service and product is better and/or more affordable and/or cheaper an the business makes more profits with the cheaper product. More efficiency allows you to lower prices whilst also maximising profits.

This is in our own interests.

K3lso

Paulzx wrote: »

Thats not how it would work.

If a resteraunt has 50 customers a night and requires 3 waitresses to serve them at minimum wage why would the owner take on 6 waitresses at half the wages if the minimum wage was abolished. The same amount of customers still needs to be served and only 3 waitresses are required to this this irrespective of what you pay them.

Why would a businessman employ "huge" amounts of people if he doesn't have the work for them?

A business is not a charity and will pay and employ the minimum it can which at present is the minimum wage

Well he wouldn't. But if he wanted to, he could because he doesn't have to dole out another 350E/week to hire one.

goose2005

It's surprising that when our genius enterprising entreprenoooooors are asked for ideas, they inevitable suggest kicking the low-waged even harder.

Paulzx

K3lso wrote: »

Well he wouldn't. But if he wanted to, he could because he doesn't have to dole out another 350E/week to hire one.

But why employ someone if you don't have work for them?

That is in effect what you are saying

An Coilean

Gauss wrote: »

I suspect this would make the poor richer and the rich richer.

How is that? People currently in employment, especially at the lower end of the Private sector, will more than likely see their wages decline.

How are they becoming richer?

K3lso

goose2005 wrote: »

It's surprising that when our genius enterprising entreprenoooooors are asked for ideas, they inevitable suggest kicking the low-waged even harder.

The minimum wage may sound benevolent but it's not. it was created by the unions to protect their jobs from competition. What union member would want to give an uneducated, low-skilled individual the chance to improve their lives by doing his/her work for a euro or so less?

And yet this is sold as the most basic decency law. Nothing could be further from the truth. You think everyone is employed and it's the least we can do...you're wrong. There are only a certain number of jobs and what you;re doing is reducing them even further while blocking competition in the process.

No uneducated, unskilled worker HAS EVER asked for a minimum wage. Only the unions are interested in it.

Chain_reaction

Gauss wrote: »

I think the language was necessary to highlight the levels of entitlement in this country.

The right to a fair wage isn't an entitlement it should be a given right. What is your view on re-opening the work house instead of having a social welfare system?

Paulzx

K3lso wrote: »

.

No uneducated, unskilled worker HAS EVER asked for a minimum wage. Only the unions are interested in it.

.............and you've asked them all?.........What a statement