Would we be better off without a minimum wage?

Chain_reaction

K3lso wrote: »

The minimum wage may sound benevolent but it's not. It was created by the unions to protect their jobs from competition.

Good god.

another question

Paulzx wrote: »

.............and you've asked them all?.........What a statement

He makes ridiculous assumptions.

mikemac1

A lot of the minimum wage jobs are in the hotel industry and you'd be struggling to find union members in there.

K3lso

Paulzx wrote: »

.............and you've asked them all?.........What a statement

Dear god, use your head....

Here's an example. You've no education, no skills to justify a businessman hiring you.

I am in a cushy job in this business and decide to protect my job from you. What do I do? I lobby the government to introduce a minimum wage law that will discriminate against you. Thus, you are un-hirable.

Chain_reaction

K3lso wrote: »

Dear god, use your head....

Here's an example. You've no education, no skills to justify a businessman hiring you.

I am in a cushy job in this business and decide to protect my job from you. What do I do? I lobby the government to introduce a minimum wage law that will discriminate against you. Thus, you are un-hirable.

:pac:

Shryke

Gauss wrote: »

The business saves money, the service and product is better and/or more affordable and/or cheaper an the business makes more profits with the cheaper product. More efficiency allows you to lower prices whilst also maximising profits.

This is in our own interests.

Take away a law that safe guards people and replace it with the idea that business will lower prices and be fair to workers on goodwill? Don't make me laugh.
Some businesses might lower prices but that doesn't mean many. That's not going to have any kind of great knock on effect when people are payed less. The poor get payed less but get to pay a bit less for some products or services so maybe they stay in the same bracket, but realistically they don't. They do become worse off and have to work more hours. There's no stimulus created when people don't have any spending power to fuel business in the first place.
Are landlords going to reduce rent? Is fuel going to get any cheaper? The only thing that gets cheap is labor.

another question

K3lso wrote: »

Dear god, use your head....

Here's an example. You've no education, no skills to justify a businessman hiring you.

I am in a cushy job in this business and decide to protect my job from you. What do I do? I lobby the government to introduce a minimum wage law that will discriminate against you. Thus, you are un-hirable.

Thus, Mr. Businessman starts thinking 'said employee has too much time on their hands, I might actually give Mr. no education, no skills a chance, he may actually be a good worker' :cool:

belcampprisoner

http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/27/news/economy/minimum_wage_jobs/index.htm


http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865557186/Minimum-wage-not-enough-to-beat-poverty-research-says.html?pg=all

chrismon

I love how every thread on AH turns into talking about bringing down social welfare

Gauss

Paulzx wrote: »

K3lso wrote: »

The job creation allows the businessman to pay for two people instead of one at the minimum wage level. Therefore, he has room to maneuver to take countless people with countless benefits not least the fact that we get a better service as consumers with two people working the shop rather than one and that investment can return back into the system. Also, the businessman can hire huge amounts of people that would in turn gain skills to be promoted or find other employment - something that they cannot do now.

Thats not how it would work.

If a resteraunt has 50 customers a night and requires 3 waitresses to serve them at minimum wage why would the owner take on 6 waitresses at half the wages if the minimum wage was abolished. The same amount of customers still needs to be served and only 3 waitresses are required to this this irrespective of what you pay them.

Why would a businessman employ "huge" amounts of people if he doesn't have the work for them?

A business is not a charity and will pay and employ the minimum it can which at present is the minimum wage

Read an economics book on how this works.

More business would come into existence with lower wages, therefore more jobs provided. With more efficiency prices are reduced and profits increase. It benefits all except those not willing to work. Of course the welfare would need to be reduced.

If there's one thing we should have learned from the economic crash in Ireland it's that it's a bad idea to pay more than something is worth. With minimum wages that is what happens.

K3lso

another question wrote: »

Thus, Mr. Businessman starts thinking 'said employee has too much time on their hands, I might actually give Mr. no education, no skills a chance, he may actually be a good worker' :cool:

lol...hasn't happened thus far.

Shryke wrote: »

Take away a law that safe guards people and replace it with the idea that business will lower prices and be fair to workers on goodwill? Don't make me laugh.
Some businesses might lower prices but that doesn't mean many. That's not going to have any kind of great knock on effect when people are payed less. The poor get payed less but get to pay a bit less for some products or services so maybe they stay in the same bracket, but realistically they don't. They do become worse off and have to work more hours. There's no stimulus created when people don't have any spending power to fuel business in the first place.
Are landlords going to reduce rent? Is fuel going to get any cheaper? The only thing that gets cheap is labor.

And yet who is on minimum wage? If the big bad capitalist gets his way, he'll starve the people in the street. There would be famine without price controls...lol. Is that why people earn above the minimum wage even now? Of what use is it if people earn more than that regulated level?!

Gauss

Chain_reaction wrote: »

Gauss wrote: »

I think the language was necessary to highlight the levels of entitlement in this country.

The right to a fair wage isn't an entitlement it should be a given right. What is your view on re-opening the work house instead of having a social welfare system?

Being paid more than your position is worth is not fair.

Geri Male

Zillah wrote: »

Make the poor richer by paying them less. Perfect! Why didn't we think of this before?! Romney should trot this out at the next gormless conservative convention.

The next time I read one of your posts I hope that it doesnt disappoint me as much as this one. I mean, I know it was my choice to read, but I actually thought you'd have something interesting to say. All I hear is a bunch of whining about something that you could fix if you werent too busy looking for attention.

Gauss

I'd love if a game existed where you could simulate an economy with say a 100 people. It would become obvious to all how it's in all our interests to abolish the minimum wage.

The minimum wage is a handicap on everyone except those who don't want to work.

another question

K3lso wrote: »

lol...hasn't happened thus far.

Oh and you know all about that too...wow! We're in good company, he must be God.

What education or skills do you need to work in the MAJORITY of minimum wage jobs? Mopping floors, collecting glasses, tidying in a clothes shop? Oh no wait! All those workers are lobbying the government to increase the minimum wage to halt their management from hiring any more of them! Oh please....

SCOOP 64

Gauss wrote: »

Do you not agree its better to have people in jobs rather than on the dole?

You can't climb the ladder when aren't on it. Long run this could be better for our society. Also don't forget prices would be reduced so many low earners people would have more purchasing power.

prices will be reduced:D
we would all starve to death first!

Chain_reaction

Gauss wrote: »

Being paid more than your position is worth is not fair.

Can you expand on this please?

What would stop your current employer turning around in the morning and dropping your wage to what they thought you were worth? You could be highly qualified etc but if they are only paying you what they think you are worth that could be **** all. You'd just be viewed as a cost saving measure to maximise profits.

Do you see yourself as being over paid or is it just those in jobs you consider to be beneath you??

Gauss

nig1 wrote: »

Gauss wrote: »

Do you not agree its better to have people in jobs rather than on the dole?

You can't climb the ladder when aren't on it. Long run this could be better for our society. Also don't forget prices would be reduced so many low earners people would have more purchasing power.

prices will be reduce:D
we would all starve to death first!

Only a small minority of the workforce is on the minimum wage.

You'd hardly starve. Already you can feed one person liver each day for a week for 4 euro. Just one example, prices would drop further. So long as employers seek to maximise profits you wouldn't starve.

SCOOP 64

Gauss wrote: »

Only a small minority of the workforce is on the minimum wage.

You'd hardly starve. Already you can feed one person liver each day for a week for 4 euro. Just one example, prices would drop further. So long as employers seek to maximise profits you wouldn't starve.

You'd hardly starve. Already you can feed one person liver each day for a week for 4!!!
Are you for real!!! kids living of Liver,.

kowloon

Gauss wrote: »

I'd love if a game existed where you could simulate an economy with say a 100 people. It would become obvious to all how it's in all our interests to abolish the minimum wage.

The minimum wage is a handicap on everyone except those who don't want to work.

I wouldn't mind seeing that myself. Maybe a larger scale though. You could just input the rules, like minimum wages and the likes, set the whole simulation going and see the results.

I'm sure there's been quite a few computer models developed by economists and the likes, but are there any games detailed enough to do this that could be understood by the average person with no education in the field?

The AI might be a problem though, as people don't function 100% rationally.

I'd imagine that as you strip away rules that restrain the market the population might divide into a small group of wealthy 'haves' and a much larger group of 'have nots'.

Turpentine

Gauss wrote: »

Only a small minority of the workforce is on the minimum wage.

You'd hardly starve. Already you can feed one person liver each day for a week for 4 euro. Just one example, prices would drop further. So long as employers seek to maximise profits you wouldn't starve.

What about cake Gauss? Couldn't they just eat cake?

V_Moth

Gauss wrote: »

I'd love if a game existed where you could simulate an economy with say a 100 people. It would become obvious to all how it's in all our interests to abolish the minimum wage.

The minimum wage is a handicap on everyone except those who don't want to work.

Do you have any sources for these comments? I fail to see how it would be in our interests - look at working conditions in the early 20th Century for example.

Logical Fallacy

Gauss wrote: »

Why are such a low percentage of employees on the minimum wage if business are so keen to slash wages?

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10006562.shtml

Because at the moment employers still need to provide a wage that allows people comfort despite our cost of living. The first thing most companies did when the recession started was drop a lot of workers to lower wage costs. The reason this happened is because the majority of workers on a contract makes it quite hard to suddenly reduce their wage.

A more interesting thing to look at is that starting wage of most positions now versus 5-6 years ago.

Mr Benevolent

I love the way nobody who wants the minimum wage abolished is on a minimum wage. Yeah. Reduce your expenditure while reducing other people's income. I like it.

dlofnep

Before the minimum wage, I was working for £2.50 in a hotel, where shifts were 14 hours long sometimes. I then worked in a nightclub just before minimum wage was increase to £4.00.. I was on £3 an hour at the time, and working all kinds of awful terrible split shifts just so I could have a few quid in my back pocket.

Lack of minimum wage would see workers exploited when the economy is poor. No thanks.

Gauss

kowloon wrote: »

Gauss wrote: »

I'd love if a game existed where you could simulate an economy with say a 100 people. It would become obvious to all how it's in all our interests to abolish the minimum wage.

The minimum wage is a handicap on everyone except those who don't want to work.

I wouldn't mind seeing that myself. Maybe a larger scale though. You could just input the rules, like minimum wages and the likes, set the whole simulation going and see the results.

I'm sure there's been quite a few computer models developed by economists and the likes, but are there any games detailed enough to do this that could be understood by the average person with no education in the field?

The AI might be a problem though, as people don't function 100% rationally.

I'd imagine that as you strip away rules that restrain the market the population might divide into a small group of wealthy 'haves' and a much larger group of 'have nots'.

You could have actual rewards/prizes in line with profits/wages earned in the simulated economy. That would help its realism.

entropi

Shryke wrote: »

Take away a law that safe guards people and replace it with the idea that business will lower prices and be fair to workers on goodwill? Don't make me laugh.
Some businesses might lower prices but that doesn't mean many. That's not going to have any kind of great knock on effect when people are payed less. The poor get payed less but get to pay a bit less for some products or services so maybe they stay in the same bracket, but realistically they don't. They do become worse off and have to work more hours. There's no stimulus created when people don't have any spending power to fuel business in the first place.
Are landlords going to reduce rent? Is fuel going to get any cheaper? The only thing that gets cheap is labor.

This, exactly this.

Many businesses, especially corporate business, are unscrupulous, and would sooner take your last earned cent than help the wider population by lowering any prices. The only thing that forces a price drop is competition, not goodwill.

OP, are you that blinded from the reality of life, that you honestly think that it is a good idea? There are probably a few hundred thousand people in Ireland living hand to mouth at the moment since the collapse of the economy. Your ideas smack of a pro-government stance on job creation (which will never work, since they are mostly incompetent), and are ultimately doomed to fail if any minimum wage was reduced, let alone taken away.

Dyr

galwayrush wrote: »

As a self employed person, there are lots of times when i would love to take home a mimum wage.

Off you go so

http://mises.org/daily/5865/MinimumWage-Rates

Aphex Tim

Gauss wrote: »

Already you can feed one person liver each day for a week for 4 euro. .

Thatcher/Romney approves this message :pac::pac:

Gauss

Master of Nothing wrote: »

Shryke wrote: »

Take away a law that safe guards people and replace it with the idea that business will lower prices and be fair to workers on goodwill? Don't make me laugh.
Some businesses might lower prices but that doesn't mean many. That's not going to have any kind of great knock on effect when people are payed less. The poor get payed less but get to pay a bit less for some products or services so maybe they stay in the same bracket, but realistically they don't. They do become worse off and have to work more hours. There's no stimulus created when people don't have any spending power to fuel business in the first place.
Are landlords going to reduce rent? Is fuel going to get any cheaper? The only thing that gets cheap is labor.

This, exactly this.

Many businesses, especially corporate business, are unscrupulous, and would sooner take your last earned cent than help the wider population by lowering any prices. The only thing that forces a price drop is competition, not goodwill.

OP, are you that blinded from the reality of life, that you honestly think that it is a good idea? There are probably a few hundred thousand people in Ireland living hand to mouth at the moment since the collapse of the economy. Your ideas smack of a pro-government stance on job creation (which will never work, since they are mostly incompetent), and are ultimately doomed to fail if any minimum wage was reduced, let alone taken away.

When a business becomes more efficient it can usually increase it's profits by decreasing prices.I'm under no illusions that businesses have any other interests over their profits.

By reducing labour costs it becomes more profitable to reduce prices assuming we're not talking about a monopoly.

Gauss

Educational article below.

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/the-minimum-wage-good-intentions-bad-results/

mfceiling

Good idea....now instead of paying my lads a decent rate for a days work i'll tell them they can work for 20 quid a day or i'll get someone else who will!!

Zillah

Geri Male wrote: »

The next time I read one of your posts I hope that it doesnt disappoint me as much as this one. I mean, I know it was my choice to read, but I actually thought you'd have something interesting to say. All I hear is a bunch of whining about something that you could fix if you werent too busy looking for attention.

Eh, lol? Sorry to disappoint. How, pray tell, would I fix "it" if I took a break from whining for attention?

Master of Nothing

Master of Nothing wrote: »

This, exactly this.

Many businesses, especially corporate business, are unscrupulous, and would sooner take your last earned cent than help the wider population by lowering any prices. The only thing that forces a price drop is competition, not goodwill.

OP, are you that blinded from the reality of life, that you honestly think that it is a good idea? There are probably a few hundred thousand people in Ireland living hand to mouth at the moment since the collapse of the economy. Your ideas smack of a pro-government stance on job creation (which will never work, since they are mostly incompetent), and are ultimately doomed to fail if any minimum wage was reduced, let alone taken away.

Lowering prices isn't about goodwill: it's about demand and profit.
Demand may go up drastically for lower levels of prices (the joys of sales).
For more demand, more labour may be required to meet that demand. Factory will expand, shop needs more staff, etc.
If prices were too high, more competition should surely set up, seeing a great opportunity to make profit at a slightly lower price. Why might competition not set up now? Barriers to entry: including min wage costs.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2038276

ejmaztec

Gauss wrote: »

Prices would drop. You would get more for your euro.

The prices would remain the same or go up, and the only people getting more for their Euro would be the shareholders.

mikemac1

I'm betting Gauss is a student who thinks he is every so smart

Lots of knowledge about theories but zero life experience

Gauss

mikemac1 wrote: »

I'm betting Gauss is a student who thinks he is every so smart

Lots of knowledge about theories but zero life experience

No I work, why not raise the minimum wage to 50 euro per hour. We'd be even better off then. We'd all be rich.

MaxSteele

Yes let's further degenerate those in low income jobs to the status of an illegal alien in The USA.

Ridiculous idea.

mikemac1

mikemac1 wrote: »

I'm betting Gauss is a student who thinks he is every so smart

Lots of knowledge about theories but zero life experience

Maybe those with their life experience on this thread should advise Tesco to stop advertising price cuts and special offers, since jacking up the prices is apparently the only way to make a profit...

mikemac1

Tesco don't need my advice, they are ruthless enough

Is this job creation Gauss?
How many paid jobs did this create?

SUPERMARKET GIANT TESCO has said that its JobBridge internships are not filling jobs that are needed in its stores.

The company is seeking interns to work for six months “filling shelves according to merchandising plans and ensuring that customers do not have to queue”.

It says that the intern “will gain skills such as rotation of stock, customer service skills, management of waste and damages, merchandising to plans routines”.

http://www.thejournal.ie/tesco-stands-behind-jobbridge-advert-228599-Sep2011/

Gauss

mikemac1 wrote: »

Tesco don't need my advice, they are ruthless enough

Is this job creation Gauss?
How many paid jobs did this create?

SUPERMARKET GIANT TESCO has said that its JobBridge internships are not filling jobs that are needed in its stores.

The company is seeking interns to work for six months “filling shelves according to merchandising plans and ensuring that customers do not have to queue”.

It says that the intern “will gain skills such as rotation of stock, customer service skills, management of waste and damages, merchandising to plans routines”.

http://www.thejournal.ie/tesco-stands-behind-jobbridge-advert-228599-Sep2011/

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those internship programmes free labour. I wouldn't expect people to work for free, especially considering our high social welfare. That article proves nothing.

Can you give an argument why we shouldn't increase the minimum wage to €50?

dlofnep

Gauss wrote: »

No I work, why not raise the minimum wage to 50 euro per hour. We'd be even better off then. We'd all be rich.

No, we wouldn't - because nobody would have work. The objective of a minimum wage is not to make people rich, but to prevent people from falling below the poverty line. It ensures that people earn a decent wage for a day's work.

Bergkamp 10

I'm only getting paid 5.60 ph in a hotel as it is, how low can it go

As far as I'm aware the minimum wage isnt even adhered to anymore. Its more the case of if you dont like it, get the fcuk out and someone else will do it.

8.65 is a long way away from what alot of people are earning

Gauss

dlofnep wrote: »

Gauss wrote: »

No I work, why not raise the minimum wage to 50 euro per hour. We'd be even better off then. We'd all be rich.

No, we wouldn't - because nobody would have work. The objective of a minimum wage is not to make people rich, but to prevent people from falling below the poverty line. It ensures that people earn a decent wage for a day's work.

Yes and more people would have work if there were a minimum wage assuming the dole is cut. This would benefit the public finances, meaning lower taxes or more money for the disabled, special needs etc. people would have more money to spend meaning more jobs being created. Greater productivity and efficiency would result which benefits everyone.

mikemac1

Gauss wrote: »

Yes and more people would have work if there were a minimum wage assuming the dole is cut.

Do you want to keep it or not?

An Coilean

Gauss wrote: »

Yes and more people would have work if there were a minimum wage assuming the dole is cut. This would benefit the public finances, meaning lower taxes or more money for the disabled, special needs etc. people would have more money to spend meaning more jobs being created. Greater productivity and efficiency would result which benefits everyone.

How dose getting rid of the minimum wage give people more money to spend? It would result in poorer workers seeing their wage reduced.
It would also probably result in a rise in Trade Unionism as workers try to fight to hold on to the pay and condititions they currently have leading to a much greater level of industrial dispute.

Mr Benevolent

mikemac1 wrote: »

Do you want to keep it or not?

I don't think he even knows himself.

Gauss

Confab wrote: »

mikemac1 wrote: »

Do you want to keep it or not?

I don't think he even knows himself.

I want it removed, thought it was obvious.

Would you be in favour of the minimum wage increased to 20 euro?

To spell out above I'm pointing out how you can make the same argument for an increase in minimum wage to 20,30,40,50 euro etc.

usernamegoes

It's basic economics.

http://www.policynote.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Standard-min-wage-graph1.png