Would we be better off without a minimum wage?

mikemac1

Gauss wrote: »

Yes and more people would have work if there were a minimum wage assuming the dole is cut

Gauss wrote: »

I want it removed, thought it was obvious.

Nothing obvious about that

Chuck Stone

There is a difference between creating wealth and expertise and creating work.

I could pay someone to fan me with an ostrich feather 4 hours a day at 50c per hour. What good is that? Will the 'fanner' become an expert and be able to seek a better position fanning someone else who will offer him more?

No.

usernamegoes wrote: »

It's basic economics.

http://www.policynote.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Standard-min-wage-graph1.png

There is nothing basic about economics. It's not an expertise like, say, surgery or jet engine manufacturing. It's a disputed field.

If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a conclusion.


George Bernard Shaw.

LETHAL LADY

Chuck Stone wrote: »

There is a difference between creating wealth and expertise and creating work.

I could pay someone to fan me with an ostrich feather 4 hours a day at 50c per hour. What good is that? Will the 'fanner' become an expert and be able to seek a better position fanning someone else who will offer him more?

No.

Excuse me I command €50 an hour for my ostrich feather fanning expertise. It is a craft that takes years to master I will have you know.:p

Shryke

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

Chuck Stone wrote: »

There is a difference between creating wealth and expertise and creating work.

I could pay someone to fan me with an ostrich feather 4 hours a day at 50c per hour. What good is that? Will the 'fanner' become an expert and be able to seek a better position fanning someone else who will offer him more?

No.

Excuse me I command €50 an hour for my ostrich feather fanning expertise. It is a craft that takes years to master I will have you know.:p

What do you command it to do, materialise?

LETHAL LADY

Shryke wrote: »

What do you command it to do, materialise?

That is true its a dying craft

Logical_Bear

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

Excuse me I command €50 an hour for my ostrich feather fanning expertise.

probably includes a happy ending though.....:pac:

professore

Paulzx wrote: »

K3lso wrote: »

The job creation allows the businessman to pay for two people instead of one at the minimum wage level. Therefore, he has room to maneuver to take countless people with countless benefits not least the fact that we get a better service as consumers with two people working the shop rather than one and that investment can return back into the system. Also, the businessman can hire huge amounts of people that would in turn gain skills to be promoted or find other employment - something that they cannot do now.

Thats not how it would work.

If a resteraunt has 50 customers a night and requires 3 waitresses to serve them at minimum wage why would the owner take on 6 waitresses at half the wages if the minimum wage was abolished. The same amount of customers still needs to be served and only 3 waitresses are required to this this irrespective of what you pay them.

Why would a businessman employ "huge" amounts of people if he doesn't have the work for them?

A business is not a charity and will pay and employ the minimum it can which at present is the minimum wage

It could charge less thus attracting more customers thus needing more staff.

Gauss

mikemac1 wrote: »

Gauss wrote: »

Yes and more people would have work if there were a minimum wage assuming the dole is cut

Gauss wrote: »

I want it removed, thought it was obvious.

Nothing obvious about that

didn't notice that, it was a mistake.

To clarify, if there were no minimum wage there'd be fewer unemployed.

Lingua Franca

Like in the 80s? Yeah, I see your point. :pac:

LETHAL LADY

How long would it take to bring down the cost of living in this country if minimum wage was abolished or all wage agreements for that matter? Has anybody got an exact answer or example of this apart from theories?.

Gauss

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

How long would it take to bring down the cost of living in this country if minimum wage was abolished or all wage agreements for that matter? Has anybody got an exact answer or example of this apart from theories.

As long as it takes businesses to notice they can make more profit by reducing prices and as long as it takes entrepreneurs to realise there are new oppurtunities to start profitable businesses.

LETHAL LADY

Gauss wrote: »

As long as it takes businesses to notice they can make more profit by reducing prices and as long as it takes entrepreneurs to realise there are new oppurtunities to start profitable businesses.

Is it not most of the problem when it comes to SMEs in this country, that they cannot get loans in order to establish themselves or grow not necessarily the wages they are paying. Most businesses take a few years to make a profit and if they do not have loans to tide them over how can they succeed?

the_syco

Gauss wrote: »

Do you not agree its better to have people in jobs rather than on the dole?

And so you plan on people working for half of what they get on the dole?

Gauss

the_syco wrote: »

Gauss wrote: »

Do you not agree its better to have people in jobs rather than on the dole?

And so you plan on people working for half of what they get on the dole?

No the dole would need to be cut.

goose2005

Chuck Stone wrote: »

There is nothing basic about economics. It's not an expertise like, say, surgery or jet engine manufacturing. It's a disputed field.

Most surgeons and jet engine designers would tell you that their field also involves a lot of uncertainty and dispute.

waxon-waxoff

If you cut minimum wage then social welfare would have to be cut at the same time or else people would leave jobs and go on the dole.

If you cut social welfare payments and keep the minimum wage as it is, people have an incentive to take up a job.

BOHtox

I started working in a supermarket two months ago. I'm earning above minimum wage. I applied, with no previous experience, and got the job having gone through the interview process and all other stages.
If people are paying above minimum wage now, why would they stop?

Labour is a product. There is a price for every product. The price for labour is wages. The better workers earn a higher wage. There would be more competition for labour. I don't see wages going down considerably but it definitely would help those unskilled workers whose producticity does not justify 8.65 an hour but something like €7 and hour would until he gets skilled

stateofflux

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

Is it not most of the problem when it comes to SMEs in this country, that they cannot get loans in order to establish themselves or grow not necessarily the wages they are paying. Most businesses take a few years to make a profit and if they do not have loans to tide them over how can they succeed?

i really don't believe the majority of SME''s want loans or have a problem getting them as much as we hear they do.. i would guess that most would be cutting costs and slimming down instead.

sock puppet

Zillah wrote: »

No, they wouldn't. Employers would turn the increased profit margins into increased profits. This has been shown time and time again. Companies do not pass savings on to the public unless they absolutely have to. Just look at the US

Do you have any evidence that laxer minimum wage laws have led to increased operating margins for businesses in the US? Otherwise it's pretty stupid to make the claim with such certainty.

BOHtox wrote: »

I started working in a supermarket two months ago. I'm earning above minimum wage. I applied, with no previous experience, and got the job having gone through the interview process and all other stages.
If people are paying above minimum wage now, why would they stop?

It depends on whether your employer is paying you say €1 above the minimum wage or €1 above €8.65. If it's the former a reduced minimum wage would definitely see wages cut.

LETHAL LADY

stateofflux wrote: »

i really don't believe the majority of SME''s want loans or have a problem getting them as much as we hear they do.. i would guess that most would be cutting costs and slimming down instead.

I hope that thats true but I seriously doubt it

mikemac1

First they said "lucky to have a job"

Now they say "lucky to get minimum wage"

National self confidence is on the floor

No wonder Irish unions are so weak, nobody fights or cares

And the one time they did fight for Irish Ferries they lost

Time for me to give my job as the OP reckons I'm too expensive, Maciej from Krakow can do it better and cheaper

Cossax

usernamegoes wrote: »

It's basic economics.

http://www.policynote.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Standard-min-wage-graph1.png

It's basic theoretical economic theory underpinned by assumptions that aren't true in the real world.

Can you explain to me the reasoning behind the slope of the demand and supply curves in that diagram?
Could you perhaps cite some real-world studies into the effect of reducing/abolishing the minimum wage on employment/unemployment?

Jimoslimos

Gauss wrote: »

I suspect this would make the poor richer and the rich richer.

Seriously what sh1t is this? If your only reasons for abolishing the minimum wage are because you reckon you personally will be better off - then be honest and say that. Stop trying to dress your libertarian politics as concern for other people. Whatever the rights and wrongs it is a philosophy that unashamedly puts the interests of the individual over the collective. Our current system, while not perfect, attempts to reward hard work and innovation whilst making sure nobody falls victim to misfortune, illness or exploitation. Not always easy to do both but damm sure better than either of the two extreme alternatives.

Wealth cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred from one form (or person) to another.

sock puppet

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Wealth cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred from one form (or person) to another.

Wtf? How do you explain 3% global GDP growth in 2011?

Gauss

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Gauss wrote: »

I suspect this would make the poor richer and the rich richer.

Seriously what sh1t is this? If your only reasons for abolishing the minimum wage are because you reckon you personally will be better off - then be honest and say that. Stop trying to dress your libertarian politics as concern for other people. Whatever the rights and wrongs it is a philosophy that unashamedly puts the interests of the individual over the collective. Our current system, while not perfect, attempts to reward hard work and innovation whilst making sure nobody falls victim to misfortune, illness or exploitation. Not always easy to do both but damm sure better than either of the two extreme alternatives.

Wealth cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred from one form (or person) to another.

The minimum wage destroys wealth, it reduces economic output .

Cossax

Cossax wrote: »

It's basic theoretical economic theory underpinned by assumptions that aren't true in the real world.

Can you explain to me the reasoning behind the slope of the demand and supply curves in that diagram?
Could you perhaps cite some real-world studies into the effect of reducing/abolishing the minimum wage on employment/unemployment?

I did earlier already

Dravokivich

Gauss wrote: »

Read an economics book on how this works.

More business would come into existence with lower wages, therefore more jobs provided. With more efficiency prices are reduced and profits increase. It benefits all except those not willing to work. Of course the welfare would need to be reduced.

If there's one thing we should have learned from the economic crash in Ireland it's that it's a bad idea to pay more than something is worth. With minimum wages that is what happens.

Funny you should say those 2 comments, we have a major problem with people on the brink, if not already, defaulting on mortgages. What affect on that do you think will come into play with no Min Wage?

Also, with all that Tax money going to the bailouts we've been pushed into. It'll take longer to pay off with less money coming in from taxes, due to lower wages.

Economics you've been reading is it?

speedboatchase

mikemac1 wrote: »

First they said "lucky to have a job"

Now they say "lucky to get minimum wage"

National self confidence is on the floor

No wonder Irish unions are so weak, nobody fights or cares

And the one time they did fight for Irish Ferries they lost

Time for me to give my job as the OP reckons I'm too expensive, Maciej from Krakow can do it better and cheaper

Irish unions are weak? Excuse me while I climb back after falling from my chair. Adapt or die, no one owes you a living.

Slurryface

The NMW cannot be taken in the abstract.
There is no doubt that it is too high and that if it were abolished then employers would be more willing to hire. However the problem is that Irish workers dont want to work for realistic wages, they still think they are "owed" higher wage rates that any of our European counterparts.
I personally know of one business offering a manual job (Indoors, semi skilled) for just over the NMW, and not a single Irish person has applied for the job!
Truth is umemployment will continue to ravage this country until the Irish cop on to the fact that they are not owed high wages, that "sickkies" are not a form of bonus, and that they are not entitled to extra holidays,christmas bonuses etc.

megafan

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

How long would it take to bring down the cost of living in this country if minimum wage was abolished or all wage agreements for that matter? Has anybody got an exact answer or example of this apart from theories?.

Trouble is if minium wage goes we'll just import more cheap labour & have to support new immigrants & their familys with more Family support supplement, rent allowance. schools & medical care. So taxes can only increase for those lucky enough to have a higher wage & unemployment figures will not change & can only get worse! Not sure what the answer is cut the Dole? that'll go down like a lead baloon especially as I could be unemployed tomorrow!!;)

sbsquarepants

Better off without a minimum wage? No absolutely not, it would only lead to greedy employers exploiting vulnerable staff. If your business can't get by paying it's staff €8.65 and hour then it is not a viable business- full stop.
You see big business pull this shít all the time, for example an iphone costs something like €190 to make, parts and labour, of that maybe a tenner or 15 quid is labour. Would it really kill apple if they had to pay €30 or €40 labour instead? Either they take a score less profit per unit or more likely just push the final price up for rich western mugs to pay, either way they still make a gazillion a year.
Would make a huge difference to those poor fúckers slaving away to produce the damn things though.

Blisterman

If statutory minimum wage was abolished, there'd still be a "minimum wage", which would be the point where you're better off on the dole. Ie, the dole plus the cost of expenses involved in having a job (work clothes, transport etc.)

Slurryface

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Better off without a minimum wage? No absolutely not, it would only lead to greedy employers exploiting vulnerable staff. If your business can't get by paying it's staff €8.65 and hour then it is not a viable business- full stop.
You see big business pull this shít all the time, for example an iphone costs something like €190 to make, parts and labour, of that maybe a tenner or 15 quid is labour. Would it really kill apple if they had to pay €30 or €40 labour instead? Either they take a score less profit per unit or more likely just push the final price up for rich western mugs to pay, either way they still make a gazillion a year.
Would make a huge difference to those poor fúckers slaving away to produce the damn things though.

I have news for you buddy, in business you NEVER pay more than you have to for any commodity, of which labour is one!
Why the hell should Apple or anyone else choose to pay more than they have to?
It may come as a big surprise to you but business is about making money, not being a charity.

sbsquarepants

Jimoslimos wrote: »

.

Wealth cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred from one form (or person) to another.

I think you're confusing wealth with energy!
Wealth can of course be created and destroyed, it happens on a daily basis all around you. When you go to work you are creating wealth, both for yourself, the state and for your employer (well, in a healthy business that is!)

megafan

Blisterman wrote: »

If statutory minimum wage was abolished, there'd still be a "minimum wage", which would be the point where you're better off on the dole. Ie, the dole plus the cost of expenses involved in having a job (work clothes, transport etc.)

Are we not there already?

Slurryface

megafan wrote: »

Are we not there already?

We are not even close to it. However when the Government deal with our highly inflated SW rates and all the freebies, we might get there.

megafan

Slurryface wrote: »

We are not even close to it. However when the Government deal with our highly inflated SW rates and all the freebies, we might get there.

Thats what I mean if i was unemployed tomorrow I'd think long & hard about taking a minium wage job (taking tavel & other expences into account) or staying on the dole! But 200 or so euro on the dole would mean just existing?

doolox

....to the strength that employers now have to dictate terms and conditions in the face of high unemployment we now face.

Anyone who advocates abolishing the min wage must have a lot of money set aside to live on because if the min wage is abolished ALL wages will decrease over time because the min wage sets the minimum standard of income expected to be paid for a persons time and energies in a job. All other wages and pay rates are set relative to this minimum standard.

Any one on the minimum wage should expect to have a training and development plan drawn up to move them up the wages spectrum towards a decent wage. Both employers and workers should be obliged to work on this but often it suits some people to forego investing time or money in the development of skills and methods that will allow a larger wage to be earned and then paid.

There is a huge lack of trust and spirit of partnership evident in Ireland between employers and workers.

There is a huge lack of credit and uncertainty about future needs and markets.

There is a huge lack of vision and leadership at the government level about what should be done to motivate workers and unemployed to improve their lot.

Until these issues are solved the min wage offers a crude but effective protection to the most vulnerable people in the workforce.

Boombastic

mikemac1 wrote: »

...............................
No wonder Irish unions are so weak, nobody fights or cares
...................

I hope you get a good allowance for travelling to work from the land of the clouds


Minimum wage should be abolished, let the market decide

Bruthal

Gauss wrote: »

Only a small percentage of employees are on minimum wage.

Are you on it?

Gauss

doolox wrote: »

....to the strength that employers now have to dictate terms and conditions in the face of high unemployment we now face.

Anyone who advocates abolishing the min wage must have a lot of money set aside to live on because if the min wage is abolished ALL wages will decrease over time because the min wage sets the minimum standard of income expected to be paid for a persons time and energies in a job. All other wages and pay rates are set relative to this minimum standard.

Any one on the minimum wage should expect to have a training and development plan drawn up to move them up the wages spectrum towards a decent wage. Both employers and workers should be obliged to work on this but often it suits some people to forego investing time or money in the development of skills and methods that will allow a larger wage to be earned and then paid.

There is a huge lack of trust and spirit of partnership evident in Ireland between employers and workers.

There is a huge lack of credit and uncertainty about future needs and markets.

There is a huge lack of vision and leadership at the government level about what should be done to motivate workers and unemployed to improve their lot.

Until these issues are solved the min wage offers a crude but effective protection to the most vulnerable people in the workforce.

The reality is as has already been pointed out, the minimum wage hurts the most vulnerable people in the workforce along with the high dole.

Pride Fighter

We would be all better off with a maximum wage, and a minimum living wage of about 13 euro per hour.

With an increase in disposable income, business will do a lot better and with the maximum wage, corporate leeches would have less money to syphon off into foreign bank accounts.

speedboatchase

Pride Fighter wrote: »

We would be all better off with a maximum wage, and a minimum living wage of about 13 euro per hour.

With an increase in disposable income, business will do a lot better and with the maximum wage, corporate leeches would have less money to syphon off into foreign bank accounts.

Hah, I was wondering how long until that "maximum wage" socialist chestnut would rear its head. 10 pages before a mention? Good work people.

megafan

Pride Fighter wrote: »

We would be all better off with a maximum wage, and a minimum living wage of about 13 euro per hour.

With an increase in disposable income, business will do a lot better and with the maximum wage, corporate leeches would have less money to syphon off into foreign bank accounts.

You might have a point. Pay too much & people will buy foreign holiday homes & expensive german cars which sends wads of cash out of the country while those with little disposable income keep their money in the country helping local businesses!

Slurryface

megafan wrote: »

Thats what I mean if i was unemployed tomorrow I'd think long & hard about taking a minium wage job (taking tavel & other expences into account) or staying on the dole! But 200 or so euro on the dole would mean just existing?

It means the dole should be cut drastically. People in Ireland get some of the highest dole payments in the OECD.
Cut the dole for a single person to €80 a week for a maximum of 52 weeks then reduce to €50 a week. Make pro ratia cuts to married, co-habitating, single parents.
End the freebies, no more free travel,free electricity, fuel allownce, etc etc.

Blisterman

Like Tesco and McDonalds?

dorkacle

Having experienced crap service from disinterested and rude - yet expectant - workers that assume some sort of entitlement to a 'tip' in the service industry whilst visiting the US on many an occasion, I can safely say I am all for a minimum wage in this country and everywhere else for that matter.

I think minimum wage in some ways guarantees you a minimum standard of service, particularly in the service industry.

A tip should be a gesture of good will for good service, not a near guaranteed part of somebodies income. (Even though I probably do give a small tip for poor service....)

Lets be honest, people can be obnoxious enough as it is in Ireland, removing minimum wage could inadvertently encourage this I reckon.... I do tip, and particularly well for good service. However in the US it is an expected part of pay and is no more a tip than the rest of your bill. Its just not on your receipt..

V_Moth

Slurryface wrote: »

It means the dole should be cut drastically. People in Ireland get some of the highest dole payments in the OECD.
Cut the dole for a single person to €80 a week for a maximum of 52 weeks then reduce to €50 a week. Make pro ratia cuts to married, co-habitating, single parents.
End the freebies, no more free travel,free electricity, fuel allownce, etc etc.

So you are saying we should turn ourselves into a third world economy? How enlightened...

dorkacle

dorkacle wrote: »

Having experienced crap service from disinterested and rude - yet expectant - workers that assume some sort of entitlement to a 'tip' in the service industry whilst visiting the US on many an occasion, I can safely say I am all for a minimum wage in this country and everywhere else for that matter.

I think minimum wage in some ways guarantees you a minimum standard of service, particularly in the service industry.

A tip should be a gesture of good will for good service, not a near guaranteed part of somebodies income. (Even though I probably do give a small tip for poor service....)

Lets be honest, people can be obnoxious enough as it is in Ireland, removing minimum wage could inadvertently encourage this I reckon.... I do tip, and particularly well for good service. However in the US it is an expected part of pay and is no more a tip than the rest of your bill. Its just not on your receipt..

You argue that having a minimum expectation of pay ensures bad service and then go on to conclude that we should have a minimum expectation of pay.

dorkacle

bluewolf wrote: »

You argue that having a minimum expectation of pay ensures bad service and then go on to conclude that we should have a minimum expectation of pay.

I argue that low or no minimum wage leads to poor service, as people - as in the the US - expect a tip, regardless of the level service, to supplement their wages or lack there of...