Would we be better off without a minimum wage?

Gauss

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

summerskin wrote: »

Yes it is exorbitant. No way in hell would i pay €350 a week to someone with no experience or qualifications, or to do a job that required neither. It's ridiculous.

This country needs to cut the dole by half and get rid of minimum wage.
You're trying to tell me that a cleaner or labourer should earn €350 per week? Nonsense, should be closer to €250 and they should be taxed on it as they are in most other countries.

The sense of entitlement I've come across doing business in Ireland is exactly why my company is choosing to expand in the UK rather than here.

I always shudder a little when I see Ireland compared to other countries regarding minimum wage and welfare without any comparison to cost of living.

Bring down the later and we can drop the first two.

We can't tell people what to charge for their products. Prices will drop when the min wage is removed.

Gauss

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

summerskin wrote: »

Yes it is exorbitant. No way in hell would i pay €350 a week to someone with no experience or qualifications, or to do a job that required neither. It's ridiculous.

This country needs to cut the dole by half and get rid of minimum wage.
You're trying to tell me that a cleaner or labourer should earn €350 per week? Nonsense, should be closer to €250 and they should be taxed on it as they are in most other countries.

The sense of entitlement I've come across doing business in Ireland is exactly why my company is choosing to expand in the UK rather than here.

I always shudder a little when I see Ireland compared to other countries regarding minimum wage and welfare without any comparison to cost of living.

Bring down the later and we can drop the first two.

We can't tell people what to charge for their products. Prices will drop when the min wage is removed.

sock puppet

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I don't know what you mean. If you make a million quid off the back of selling 1 million widgets, you have a million quid. If you then conspire to make it off the back off selling 10 million widgets - you've still got a million quid, you just had to do 10 times the work to earn it. Hardly a smart move? Or am i missing something?

I'm talking about Amazon, the company that famously never turned a profit until years after it's creation and IPO.

invinciblePRSTV

Gauss wrote: »

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

summerskin wrote: »

Yes it is exorbitant. No way in hell would i pay €350 a week to someone with no experience or qualifications, or to do a job that required neither. It's ridiculous.

This country needs to cut the dole by half and get rid of minimum wage.
You're trying to tell me that a cleaner or labourer should earn €350 per week? Nonsense, should be closer to €250 and they should be taxed on it as they are in most other countries.

The sense of entitlement I've come across doing business in Ireland is exactly why my company is choosing to expand in the UK rather than here.

I always shudder a little when I see Ireland compared to other countries regarding minimum wage and welfare without any comparison to cost of living.

Bring down the later and we can drop the first two.

We can't tell people what to charge for their products. Prices will drop when the min wage is removed.

Oh of course, prices will drop when the MW is cut, just like when prices dropped after the VAT rate was cut last year for hotels and restaurants.

Oh wait.....

summerskin

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Oh of course, prices will drop when the MW is cut, just like when prices dropped after the VAT rate was cut last year for hotels and restaurants.

Oh wait.....

Hmm, if people aren't buying enough of our product because the price is set too high(perhaps because they can't afford it...), we reduce the price accordingly. This seems to happen globally. Maybe Ireland needs to try it...

Jimoslimos

sock puppet wrote: »

Wtf? How do you explain 3% global GDP growth in 2011?

I can't. Everyone can't keep getting richer. It doesn't make sense.

GDP (from what I remember from my basic LC economics) is a funny one anyway since it includes wealth generated by foreign multinationals in the country - i.e money that will never be circulated here. People could be getting poorer but GDP increasing.

Gauss wrote: »

The minimum wage destroys wealth, it reduces economic output .

Please, think about what you're saying before you recite these mantras.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I think you're confusing wealth with energy!
Wealth can of course be created and destroyed, it happens on a daily basis all around you. When you go to work you are creating wealth, both for yourself, the state and for your employer (well, in a healthy business that is!)

Good to know people still remember the laws of thermodynamics! It was an analogy, but still holds true for the most part. Wealth doesn't get destroyed.

If I have 1 million pounds and blow it all on drugs, sex and gambling then my wealth hasn't been destroyed but 'transferred' to my local dealers, hookers and casino.

The 'wealth' you generate for your employer comes from other people buying your companies goods or services, i.e taking a little bit of their wealth. Your employer takes a cut, decides on your 'value' and pays you and finally the government takes its piece. You spend your wages, the gov uses your takes to pay public servants, provide services, etc - everything gets recirculated.

sock puppet

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I can't. Everyone can't keep getting richer. It doesn't make sense.

GDP (from what I remember from my basic LC economics) is a funny one anyway since it includes wealth generated by foreign multinationals in the country - i.e money that will never be circulated here. People could be getting poorer but GDP increasing.

How does it not make sense? People are richer now than 100 years ago.

And foreign multinationals don't affect anything since we're talking about global GDP.

invinciblePRSTV

summerskin wrote: »

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Oh of course, prices will drop when the MW is cut, just like when prices dropped after the VAT rate was cut last year for hotels and restaurants.

Oh wait.....

Hmm, if people aren't buying enough of our product because the price is set too high(perhaps because they can't afford it...), we reduce the price accordingly. This seems to happen globally. Maybe Ireland needs to try it...

No this is Ireland, if the price is too high then we lobby government to cut taxes and wages so profits can be maintained/increased. God forbid we'd ever see any of the cosy cartel professions ever engage in price wars!

Gauss

Jimoslimos wrote: »

sock puppet wrote: »

Wtf? How do you explain 3% global GDP growth in 2011?

I can't. Everyone can't keep getting richer. It doesn't make sense.

GDP (from what I remember from my basic LC economics) is a funny one anyway since it includes wealth generated by foreign multinationals in the country - i.e money that will never be circulated here. People could be getting poorer but GDP increasing.

Gauss wrote: »

The minimum wage destroys wealth, it reduces economic output .

Please, think about what you're saying before you recite these mantras.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I think you're confusing wealth with energy!
Wealth can of course be created and destroyed, it happens on a daily basis all around you. When you go to work you are creating wealth, both for yourself, the state and for your employer (well, in a healthy business that is!)

Good to know people still remember the laws of thermodynamics! It was an analogy, but still holds true for the most part. Wealth doesn't get destroyed.

If I have 1 million pounds and blow it all on drugs, sex and gambling then my wealth hasn't been destroyed but 'transferred' to my local dealers, hookers and casino.

The 'wealth' you generate for your employer comes from other people buying your companies goods or services, i.e taking a little bit of their wealth. Your employer takes a cut, decides on your 'value' and pays you and finally the government takes its piece. You spend your wages, the gov uses your takes to pay public servants, provide services, etc - everything gets recirculated.

Yes wealth can be created an destroyed.

Wtf do you think real GDP growth is?

Today people are better off than 50 years ago. We are better fed, better housed, better clothed, we have smart phones, better cheaper medicine etc.

Wealth most definitely can be created. You don't understand wealth that is why you don't understand the effect of the minimum wage.

We are worse off due to the minimum wage, we would have better, cheaper products and services if it weren't for the minimum wage. 8 hours hard work in an economy without the minimum wage will get you a lot further, full stop.

sbsquarepants

sock puppet wrote: »

I'm talking about Amazon, the company that famously never turned a profit until years after it's creation and IPO.

Yea but that's just dot comology for you. In that case people were basically gambling on future profits, amazon shifting a gazillion extra books for free, or even at a cost to themselves didn't increase the value of the company one iota.

Jimoslimos wrote: »

If I have 1 million pounds and blow it all on drugs, sex and gambling then my wealth hasn't been destroyed but 'transferred' to my local dealers, hookers and casino.
.

Sounds like some weekend though:D

Blowfish

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Good to know people still remember the laws of thermodynamics! It was an analogy, but still holds true for the most part. Wealth doesn't get destroyed.

You are falling victim to what is in essence a version of the broken window fallacy, plus ignoring the fact that all voluntary exchanges are mutually beneficial. Wealth can indeed be both destroyed and created.

Chuck Stone

Is there any evidence that reducing/abolishing minimum wage increases employment*?

I'm not interested in opinions here btw so the ideologues can shut up for a while.






*leaving aside the idea that there is a difference between creating work and creating wealth/expertise.

invinciblePRSTV

Gauss wrote: »

Jimoslimos wrote: »

sock puppet wrote: »

Wtf? How do you explain 3% global GDP growth in 2011?

I can't. Everyone can't keep getting richer. It doesn't make sense.

GDP (from what I remember from my basic LC economics) is a funny one anyway since it includes wealth generated by foreign multinationals in the country - i.e money that will never be circulated here. People could be getting poorer but GDP increasing.

Gauss wrote: »

The minimum wage destroys wealth, it reduces economic output .

Please, think about what you're saying before you recite these mantras.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I think you're confusing wealth with energy!
Wealth can of course be created and destroyed, it happens on a daily basis all around you. When you go to work you are creating wealth, both for yourself, the state and for your employer (well, in a healthy business that is!)

Good to know people still remember the laws of thermodynamics! It was an analogy, but still holds true for the most part. Wealth doesn't get destroyed.

If I have 1 million pounds and blow it all on drugs, sex and gambling then my wealth hasn't been destroyed but 'transferred' to my local dealers, hookers and casino.

The 'wealth' you generate for your employer comes from other people buying your companies goods or services, i.e taking a little bit of their wealth. Your employer takes a cut, decides on your 'value' and pays you and finally the government takes its piece. You spend your wages, the gov uses your takes to pay public servants, provide services, etc - everything gets recirculated.

Yes wealth can be created an destroyed.

Wtf do you think real GDP growth is?

Today people are better off than 50 years ago. We are better fed, better housed, better clothed, we have smart phones, better cheaper medicine etc.

.

Indeed we are, funnily enough that 50 year time period is pretty much the same period in which we've seen MW's introduced in the western world. Coincidence?

sock puppet

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Yea but that's just dot comology for you. In that case people were basically gambling on future profits, amazon shifting a gazillion extra books for free, or even at a cost to themselves didn't increase the value of the company one iota.

So what are you saying, that nothing Amazon did in the 90s contributed to their profits in the next decade?

Gauss

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Gauss wrote: »

Jimoslimos wrote: »

sock puppet wrote: »

Wtf? How do you explain 3% global GDP growth in 2011?

I can't. Everyone can't keep getting richer. It doesn't make sense.

GDP (from what I remember from my basic LC economics) is a funny one anyway since it includes wealth generated by foreign multinationals in the country - i.e money that will never be circulated here. People could be getting poorer but GDP increasing.

Gauss wrote: »

The minimum wage destroys wealth, it reduces economic output .

Please, think about what you're saying before you recite these mantras.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I think you're confusing wealth with energy!
Wealth can of course be created and destroyed, it happens on a daily basis all around you. When you go to work you are creating wealth, both for yourself, the state and for your employer (well, in a healthy business that is!)

Good to know people still remember the laws of thermodynamics! It was an analogy, but still holds true for the most part. Wealth doesn't get destroyed.

If I have 1 million pounds and blow it all on drugs, sex and gambling then my wealth hasn't been destroyed but 'transferred' to my local dealers, hookers and casino.

The 'wealth' you generate for your employer comes from other people buying your companies goods or services, i.e taking a little bit of their wealth. Your employer takes a cut, decides on your 'value' and pays you and finally the government takes its piece. You spend your wages, the gov uses your takes to pay public servants, provide services, etc - everything gets recirculated.

Yes wealth can be created an destroyed.

Wtf do you think real GDP growth is?

Today people are better off than 50 years ago. We are better fed, better housed, better clothed, we have smart phones, better cheaper medicine etc.

.

Indeed we are, funnily enough that 50 year time period is pretty much the same period in which we've seen MW's introduced in the western world. Coincidence?

Funnily enough, males with beards are more likely to die of a heart attack, coincidence?

Lets order everyone to shave at once.

Gauss

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Gauss wrote: »

Jimoslimos wrote: »

sock puppet wrote: »

Wtf? How do you explain 3% global GDP growth in 2011?

I can't. Everyone can't keep getting richer. It doesn't make sense.

GDP (from what I remember from my basic LC economics) is a funny one anyway since it includes wealth generated by foreign multinationals in the country - i.e money that will never be circulated here. People could be getting poorer but GDP increasing.

Gauss wrote: »

The minimum wage destroys wealth, it reduces economic output .

Please, think about what you're saying before you recite these mantras.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I think you're confusing wealth with energy!
Wealth can of course be created and destroyed, it happens on a daily basis all around you. When you go to work you are creating wealth, both for yourself, the state and for your employer (well, in a healthy business that is!)

Good to know people still remember the laws of thermodynamics! It was an analogy, but still holds true for the most part. Wealth doesn't get destroyed.

If I have 1 million pounds and blow it all on drugs, sex and gambling then my wealth hasn't been destroyed but 'transferred' to my local dealers, hookers and casino.

The 'wealth' you generate for your employer comes from other people buying your companies goods or services, i.e taking a little bit of their wealth. Your employer takes a cut, decides on your 'value' and pays you and finally the government takes its piece. You spend your wages, the gov uses your takes to pay public servants, provide services, etc - everything gets recirculated.

Yes wealth can be created an destroyed.

Wtf do you think real GDP growth is?

Today people are better off than 50 years ago. We are better fed, better housed, better clothed, we have smart phones, better cheaper medicine etc.

.

Indeed we are, funnily enough that 50 year time period is pretty much the same period in which we've seen MW's introduced in the western world. Coincidence?

Funnily enough, males with beards are more likely to die of a heart attack, coincidence?

Lets order everyone to shave at once.

Dravokivich

Gauss wrote: »

Funnily enough, males with beards are more likely to die of a heart attack, coincidence?

Lets order everyone to shave at once.

I've yet to have a heart attack... what's your point?

Gauss

Dravokivich wrote: »

Gauss wrote: »

Funnily enough, males with beards are more likely to die of a heart attack, coincidence?

Lets order everyone to shave at once.

I've yet to have a heart attack... what's your point?

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

Are GDP has increased hugely since 50 years ago. This is because of technological improvements, greater efficiency, increase population to name a few, it's not because of a minimum wage.

Someone on this thread actually thinks wealth can't be created.

invinciblePRSTV

Gauss wrote: »

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Gauss wrote: »

Jimoslimos wrote: »

sock puppet wrote: »

Wtf? How do you explain 3% global GDP growth in 2011?

I can't. Everyone can't keep getting richer. It doesn't make sense.

GDP (from what I remember from my basic LC economics) is a funny one anyway since it includes wealth generated by foreign multinationals in the country - i.e money that will never be circulated here. People could be getting poorer but GDP increasing.

Gauss wrote: »

The minimum wage destroys wealth, it reduces economic output .

Please, think about what you're saying before you recite these mantras.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I think you're confusing wealth with energy!
Wealth can of course be created and destroyed, it happens on a daily basis all around you. When you go to work you are creating wealth, both for yourself, the state and for your employer (well, in a healthy business that is!)

Good to know people still remember the laws of thermodynamics! It was an analogy, but still holds true for the most part. Wealth doesn't get destroyed.

If I have 1 million pounds and blow it all on drugs, sex and gambling then my wealth hasn't been destroyed but 'transferred' to my local dealers, hookers and casino.

The 'wealth' you generate for your employer comes from other people buying your companies goods or services, i.e taking a little bit of their wealth. Your employer takes a cut, decides on your 'value' and pays you and finally the government takes its piece. You spend your wages, the gov uses your takes to pay public servants, provide services, etc - everything gets recirculated.

Yes wealth can be created an destroyed.

Wtf do you think real GDP growth is?

Today people are better off than 50 years ago. We are better fed, better housed, better clothed, we have smart phones, better cheaper medicine etc.

.

Indeed we are, funnily enough that 50 year time period is pretty much the same period in which we've seen MW's introduced in the western world. Coincidence?

Funnily enough, males with beards are more likely to die of a heart attack, coincidence?

Lets order everyone to shave at once.

LOL Pwned

kenyard

would be great to see a factory like foxconn setting up here alright. 70k workers in a tiny factory on a pittance per hour..

with unemployment benefit at the rate it is in this country any drop in minimum wage would have to be equalled there. at the minute if you are working less than 20 hours a week you are as well off financially, being on the dole..
if you have any conditions etc you are better off on the dole on <30 or even <40 hours a week due to medical card, lower travel costs, etc etc..
the countries policies are rediculous to encourage people back to work, but i guess we should just ride the train while its there.

we are richer as a nation at the minute but thats because we are broke as a country.. someone went on abuot circulation of money. our banks gave out loans totalling whatever.. 15-20billion. circulated down to people probably 5 billion of that, the others pocketed by the people who left us in our situation we face,
so 5 billion given out as wages, so we have "wealth" but its all owed and we are seeing that in the present climate and will in the future also.
the problems we face are the crippling interest rates on that repayment rate, and the fact it is the little people who are left to pay this debt off rather than the big cats

Rib eye

Instead of putting a floor under wages, Minimum Wage legislation in fact creates a hurdle over which people must be able to jump in order to get a job,

It increases unemployment, especially amongst the less well off and less educated groups in society,

But if, like me, you dare to say that minimum wage laws are evil, you get labeled as a greedy pig capitalist by politicians, union leaders and people who make a living in the poverty industry,

"you hate poor people", they shout,

But I'll keep plugging away, for the following reason, which is a fact,

There are young Irish men a women currently living in Austrailia who would rather be living at home with their families, there are many reasons that they are there, Irish Minimum Wage Legislation is one those reasons,

And that my friends is not something I can tolerate!

And here's the kicker, if Minimum Wage laws work, why don't we just set the minimum wage at €100k a year, we'd all be rich, yay:)

summerskin

Rib eye wrote: »

Instead of putting a floor under wages, Minimum Wage legislation in fact creates a hurdle over which people must be able to jump in order to get a job,

It increases unemployment, especially amongst the less well off and less educated groups in society,

But if, like me, you dare to say that minimum wage laws are evil, you get labeled as a greedy pig capitalist by politicians, union leaders and people who make a living in the poverty industry,

"you hate poor people", they shout,

But I'll keep plugging away, for the following reason, which is a fact,

There are young Irish men a women currently living in Austrailia who would rather be living at home with their families, there are many reasons that they are there, Irish Minimum Wage Legislation is one those reasons,

And that my friends is not something I can tolerate!

And here's the kicker, if Minimum Wage laws work, why don't we just set the minimum wage at €100k a year, we'd all be rich, yay:)

Bloody noobs, coming over here and filling up our threads with sensible, articulate comments....

veXual

If we were to abolish minimum wage and reduce the dole how long would it take for the cost of living to adjust?

Would said adjustment period not prove problematic for those on lower wages?

I'm interested in seeing an answer to this. I read through the thread thinking those calling for the minimum wage abolition were mad but I see both sides of the argument now

Dravokivich

Rib eye wrote: »

Instead of putting a floor under wages, Minimum Wage legislation in fact creates a hurdle over which people must be able to jump in order to get a job,

It increases unemployment, especially amongst the less well off and less educated groups in society,

But if, like me, you dare to say that minimum wage laws are evil, you get labeled as a greedy pig capitalist by politicians, union leaders and people who make a living in the poverty industry,

"you hate poor people", they shout,

But I'll keep plugging away, for the following reason, which is a fact,

There are young Irish men a women currently living in Austrailia who would rather be living at home with their families, there are many reasons that they are there, Irish Minimum Wage Legislation is one those reasons,

And that my friends is not something I can tolerate!

And here's the kicker, if Minimum Wage laws work, why don't we just set the minimum wage at €100k a year, we'd all be rich, yay:)

That's as ridiculous an analogy as the one earlier where an extra head would net the company 8.50, but cost them 8.65, while they were already turning over millions.

You don't get a point across by resorting to extremism. Look at the now and what things are like. I'd have a fairly hard time of it if I was on min wage, now.

Zab

Rib eye wrote: »

There are young Irish men a women currently living in Austrailia who would rather be living at home with their families, there are many reasons that they are there, Irish Minimum Wage Legislation is one those reasons,

Our minimum wage drove them to a country with a much higher minimum wage than our own, eh?

TheFruitarian

No, we wouldn't as then then the vast majority of the manual labour workforce, would be only those that were willing to share a room with twenty other people.

the groutch

this would happen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfueQw9_3u0

hooradiation

summerskin wrote: »

Bloody noobs, coming over here and filling up our threads with sensible, articulate comments....

And yet you go and quote a post that is the very antithesis of that sentiment.

How strange.

kenyard

veXual wrote: »

If we were to abolish minimum wage and reduce the dole how long would it take for the cost of living to adjust?

Would said adjustment period not prove problematic for those on lower wages?

I'm interested in seeing an answer to this. I read through the thread thinking those calling for the minimum wage abolition were mad but I see both sides of the argument now

interseting point.. i guess thats why both things have to be done in stages... and maybe why we should have a revised budget every 6 months in the current climate where such adjustments could be stepped better (as they are necessary)

Blowfish

Dravokivich wrote: »

That's as ridiculous an analogy as the one earlier where an extra head would net the company 8.50, but cost them 8.65, while they were already turning over millions.

Yeah, I think you completely missed the point of what I said. In my example I said the if the cost was 8.65 and the value of their work was 8.50, the person would not be hired, regardless of the turnover.

invinciblePRSTV

Rib eye wrote: »

There are young Irish men a women currently living in Austrailia who would rather be living at home with their families, there are many reasons that they are there, Irish Minimum Wage Legislation is one those reasons

And no doubt many of those young Irish mem amd women are working and earning an ok income thanks to the Australian minimum wage.

Dravokivich

Blowfish wrote: »

Yeah, I think you completely missed the point of what I said. In my example I said the if the cost was 8.65 and the value of their work was 8.50, the person would not be hired, regardless of the turnover.

eh, the reason why it comes out ridiculous, is because a company turning over millions, wouldn't really be all that bothered by chasing a possible 8.50.

Boombastic

summerskin wrote: »

Bloody noobs, coming over here and filling up our threads with sensible, articulate comments....

They're a keeper

It was this bit that swung it for me

why don't we just set the minimum wage at €100k a year, we'd all be rich

Happy days, where do I sign?:D

Rib eye

veXual wrote: »

If we were to abolish minimum wage and reduce the dole how long would it take for the cost of living to adjust?

Would said adjustment period not prove problematic for those on lower wages?

I'm interested in seeing an answer to this. I read through the thread thinking those calling for the minimum wage abolition were mad but I see both sides of the argument now

The min wage has little impact on the cost of living,

The main drivers of the high cost of living in Ireland are the monstrous size of the Govt and the taxes that must be levied to pay for it all, the state monopolies, the cost of Govt imposed red tape on business, eu imposed regulations & import tariffs, and of course Ben and Mario and their inky little fingers:)

Would there be a need for minimum wage if the average house price was about 30k, petrol cost 40 cent a litre, and medicines cost 10% of what they do now?

veXual

kenyard wrote: »

interseting point.. i guess thats why both things have to be done in stages... and maybe why we should have a revised budget every 6 months in the current climate where such adjustments could be stepped better (as they are necessary)

Ok, but how will the budget dictate the cost of rent? How do everyday goods become cheaper?

I'm not having a go at you more the realism of actually enacting whats proposed.

Some folks have mentioned things will become cheaper but how does this happen and when? Are there guarantees that things will become cheaper?

kenyard

Dravokivich wrote: »

eh, the reason why it comes out ridiculous, is because a company turning over millions, wouldn't really be all that bothered by chasing a possible 8.50.

or in this case a loss of 15c per hour...
then again it happens in lots of places where people are waiting for stuff to do and getting paid for it.. *realises is in work on boards*
i wonder what profits an employer wants to make off a typical employee for it to be worth it...

Blowfish

Dravokivich wrote: »

eh, the reason why it comes out ridiculous, is because a company turning over millions, wouldn't really be all that bothered by chasing a possible 8.50.

Ok, lets go over what was said then:

Blowfish wrote: »

Ok, to break it down to it's simplest. Lets pretend you are a running a small business and calculate that there's potential to expand somewhat, but it'll involving hiring another worker. Now, being a sensible person, you calculate just how much extra this is worth to your business. After taxes, expenditure etc. you calculate that it'll generate €8.50 per hour for the business. Naturally enough since the minimum wage is at €8.65, there's no point in you hiring anyone as it'll increase your losses. Thus, the economy now has less goods produced, less taxes generated and an aditional person remaining on the Dole.

Do you genuinely think this is a better situation than being able to make the job available and allowing the labour force the choice of whether or not to work for that wage?

StudentDad wrote: »

If your margins are that meagre perhaps it would be best to remain at the current level until the market improves.

SD

Blowfish wrote: »

Who says the margins would have to be meagre for this to occur? If the job will only bring in €8.50 an hour, it will never make any sense to hire someone, even if your company is making millions.

.

It was StudentDad that mentioned that narrow margins meant you'd be better off not hiring, thus implying that with larger margins you would. I was deliberately using the extreme example to show that in fact, the margins/turnover is completely and utterly irrelevant. If it was uneconomical it wouldn't be done, be it a large or small business with the choice.

veXual

Rib eye wrote: »

The min wage has little impact on the cost of living,

The main drivers of the high cost of living in Ireland are the monstrous size of the Govt and the taxes that must be levied to pay for it all, the state monopolies, the cost of Govt imposed red tape on business, eu imposed regulations & import tariffs, and of course Ben and Mario and their inky little fingers:)

Would there be a need for minimum wage if the average house price was about 30k, petrol cost 40 cent a litre, and medicines cost 10% of what they do now?

Fair enough but if we reduce taxes what does the state run on then?

How do you know houses will cost 30k? What are the state monopolies, I'm curious?

Markcheese

kenyard wrote: »

veXual wrote: »

If we were to abolish minimum wage and reduce the dole how long would it take for the cost of living to adjust?

Would said adjustment period not prove problematic for those on lower wages?

I'm interested in seeing an answer to this. I read through the thread thinking those calling for the minimum wage abolition were mad but I see both sides of the argument now

interseting point.. i guess thats why both things have to be done in stages... and maybe why we should have a revised budget every 6 months in the current climate where such adjustments could be stepped better (as they are necessary)

Probably... And an income support scheme to ensure those in low paid work aren't worse off than on the dole... And a limit of a year or two for those on full dole payments ....
Oh and some jobs 'd be good ...

hooradiation

kenyard wrote: »

would be great to see a factory like foxconn setting up here alright. 70k workers in a tiny factory on a pittance per hour..

And then we could have some fantastic riots. It'd liven things up anyway.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Rib eye

Dravokivich wrote: »

Rib eye wrote: »

Instead of putting a floor under wages, Minimum Wage legislation in fact creates a hurdle over which people must be able to jump in order to get a job,

It increases unemployment, especially amongst the less well off and less educated groups in society,

But if, like me, you dare to say that minimum wage laws are evil, you get labeled as a greedy pig capitalist by politicians, union leaders and people who make a living in the poverty industry,

"you hate poor people", they shout,

But I'll keep plugging away, for the following reason, which is a fact,

There are young Irish men a women currently living in Austrailia who would rather be living at home with their families, there are many reasons that they are there, Irish Minimum Wage Legislation is one those reasons,

And that my friends is not something I can tolerate!

And here's the kicker, if Minimum Wage laws work, why don't we just set the minimum wage at €100k a year, we'd all be rich, yay:)

That's as ridiculous an analogy as the one earlier where an extra head would net the company 8.50, but cost them 8.65, while they were already turning over millions.

You don't get a point across by resorting to extremism. Look at the now and what things are like. I'd have a fairly hard time of it if I was on min wage, now.

That's not an analogy, it's a reductio ad absurdum, and I'm using it to illustrate that you can't tackle poverty by writing laws,

I would be delighted if it were that easy, but it doesn't work that way I'm afraid,

And of course it would be tough living on minimum wage, but I'd prefer to have minimum wage than no wage at all!

Blowfish

veXual wrote: »

Fair enough but if we reduce taxes what does the state run on then?

What state?

veXual wrote: »

What are the state monopolies, I'm curious?

Health
Schools
Social Welfare
Courts
Prisons
Central banking
Roads
Army/Navy
Public Transport
Electricity
An Post
Airports
Coillte
Ports
Horse Racing Board
Greyhound Board
Colleges/Universities/VEC's.
Fire Service

Add to that a myriad of quangos/regulatory bodies and probably a pile of others that I've forgotten about.

Rib eye

Zab wrote: »

Rib eye wrote: »

There are young Irish men a women currently living in Austrailia who would rather be living at home with their families, there are many reasons that they are there, Irish Minimum Wage Legislation is one those reasons,

Our minimum wage drove them to a country with a much higher minimum wage than our own, eh?

Austrailia was living in a bubble economy thanks to china buying everything they could get their hands on, which is now over btw,

Minimum wage laws aren't such a big problem when an economy is booming, cos labour supply is tight,

It's only when the boom is over that they do their damage,

And when reality bites down in Oz, guess which group is gonna be hardest hit by the high minimum wage law, young immegrent workers,

What do the young Irish boys do than?

Chuck Stone

Rib eye wrote: »

It increases unemployment,

Evidence?

Does anyone here advocating doing away with minimum wage have any evidence whatsoever that employment is affected by minimum wage?

Anyone?

veXual

Blowfish wrote: »

What state?
Health
Schools
Social Welfare
Courts
Prisons
Central banking
Roads
Army/Navy
Public Transport
Electricity
An Post
Airports
Coillte
Ports
Horse Racing Board
Greyhound Board
Colleges/Universities/VEC's.
Fire Service

Add to that a myriad of quangos/regulatory bodies and probably a pile of others that I've forgotten about.

Coolio. Is the proposition to privatize all of the above instead? If they become profit driven will they become more expensive in turn?

usernamegoes

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Evidence?

Does anyone here advocating doing away with minimum wage have any evidence whatsoever that employment is affected by minimum wage?

Anyone?

It's very basic supply and demand with artificial restrictions.

Rib eye

veXual wrote: »

Rib eye wrote: »

The min wage has little impact on the cost of living,

The main drivers of the high cost of living in Ireland are the monstrous size of the Govt and the taxes that must be levied to pay for it all, the state monopolies, the cost of Govt imposed red tape on business, eu imposed regulations & import tariffs, and of course Ben and Mario and their inky little fingers:)

Would there be a need for minimum wage if the average house price was about 30k, petrol cost 40 cent a litre, and medicines cost 10% of what they do now?

Fair enough but if we reduce taxes what does the state run on then?

How do you know houses will cost 30k? What are the state monopolies, I'm curious?

Well, it depends on what you by "running the state"

€10 billion a year on Quangos, €4 billion a year given to charities, hundreds of thousands of PS workers, the banks, Nama, Rte, telling what to eat, drink, licence to get married, or own a tv, or a pooch etc etc,

Is all that "running the state"?

I don't think it is, but it seems that most people do,

And if they do they shall have to pay high taxes, cos all that crap costs a lot of money.

I don't know that houses will cost €30k, it's just a guesstimate, the market would set the price, but I'd say I'm not far off!

State monopolies?

ESB, BGE, RTE, CIE, IE, RTE, HSE, AIB, BOI, NAMA, AL,

I could go on but I'd be typin all day:)

Rib eye

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Rib eye wrote: »

It increases unemployment,

Evidence?

Does anyone here advocating doing away with minimum wage have any evidence whatsoever that employment is affected by minimum wage?

Anyone?

Em,

25% unemployment and youth emigration!

K3lso

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Evidence?

Does anyone here advocating doing away with minimum wage have any evidence whatsoever that employment is affected by minimum wage?

Anyone?

For crying out loud, type into Google "Minimum wage unemployment". Look at the graphs, look at the evidence. it's easy when you can cover your ears and pretend it's not happening. The reality by contrast, tells a very different story.