Would we be better off without a minimum wage?

Chuck Stone

usernamegoes wrote: »

It's very basic supply and demand with artificial restrictions.

If it's so basic in your head then why can't you provide evidence? I'm make it clear for you.

Evidence or GTFO.

Rib eye wrote: »

Em,

25% unemployment and youth emigration!

Are you really trying to attribute the unemployment rates in this country to minimum wage legislation?

Embarrassed for you.

Cossax

usernamegoes wrote: »

It's very basic supply and demand with artificial restrictions.

In a textbook. With 45 degree supply and demand curves. Based on assumptions that don't exist in the real world - I'm sure it mentions that early on in your introductory economics text book.

I'm sure the poster who asked wanted real world evidence/studies rather than theory and ideology which is what most of this thread seems to be composed of.

K3lso

Chuck Stone wrote: »

If it's so basic in your head then why can't you provide evidence? I'm make it clear for you.

Evidence or GTFO.



Are you really trying to attribute the unemployment rates in this country to minimum wage legislation?

Embarrassed for you.

You know how we know you haven't a clue about economics?

Chuck Stone

K3lso wrote: »

For crying out loud, type into Google "Minimum wage unemployment". Look at the graphs, look at the evidence.

That's not the way it works I'm afraid.

If you make a claim then you should back it up. It's not for me to waste my time if all you have is a dearly held opinion.

I'll be only to happy to consider some evidence which is telling in its absence by those who want to do away with MW.

Chuck Stone

K3lso wrote: »

You know how we know you haven't a clue about economics?

Evidence or GTFO.

K3lso

Chuck Stone wrote: »

That's not the way it works I'm afraid.

If you make a claim then you should back it up. It's not for me to waste my time if all you have is a dearly held opinion.

I'll be only to happy to consider some evidence which is telling in its absence by those who want to do away with MW.

Fantastic. So you're saying it's not an important subject at all and if somebody doesn't do all the work for you then you couldn't really be bothered?

Ha, you sound like the tits in Dail Eireann. No wonder the country is broke.

usernamegoes

I've already posted the graph a few pages back. Study it or GTFO :-D

Chuck Stone

K3lso wrote: »

Fantastic. So you're saying it's not an important subject at all and if somebody doesn't do all the work for you then you couldn't really be bothered?

Ha, you sound like the tits in Dail Eireann. No wonder the country is broke.

I see your intellectual rigour is about as good as your ability to provide some evidence to your claims i.e. poor.

starlit

I don't know would we, be better off than having unpaid jobs floating about I suppose but sure the minimum wage be similar to CE's so likely CE's might not be around for much longer if free labour ensues.

Will it benefit the economy I don't know, people with limited spending are less likely to spend compared to if they have more income they spend more?

K3lso

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I see your intellectual rigour is about as good as your ability to provide some evidence to your claims i.e. poor.

Yeah, if only I was to higher myself to your intellect. I'll give it a shot...

GTFO

hooradiation

K3lso wrote: »

Fantastic. So you're saying it's not an important subject at all and if somebody doesn't do all the work for you then you couldn't really be bothered?

Ha, you sound like the tits in Dail Eireann. No wonder the country is broke.

being asked to deal with the burden of proof you have placed upon yourself is not an unreasonable request

Stop crying.

starlit

There are areas of spending and areas of income that should be limited for some so that everyone is equal in the spending power. That I could see be more beneficial to the economy but don't think those who are higher up the order and older than my generation would wish to lower their wages/income/salary.

Think some country in the EU balance out wages fairly can't remember which country it is though think it the Netherlands or Finland.

UCDVet

Chuck Stone wrote: »

If it's so basic in your head then why can't you provide evidence? I'm make it clear for you.

Evidence or GTFO.



Are you really trying to attribute the unemployment rates in this country to minimum wage legislation?

Embarrassed for you.

What evidence have you supplied to show such an opinion is worthy of embarrassment?

UCDVet

hooradiation wrote: »

being asked to deal with the burden of proof you have placed upon yourself is not an unreasonable request

Stop crying.

Do you have any evidence to support your claim that it is not 'unreasonable'? What criteria are you using to determine 'reasonable'...?

hooradiation

UCDVet wrote: »

Do you have any evidence to support your claim that it is not 'unreasonable'? What criteria are you using to determine 'reasonable'...?

Burden of proof.

Try harder, be better.

UCDVet

hooradiation wrote: »

Burden of proof.

Try harder, be better.

Nothing in that link supports your claim...

Chuck Stone

UCDVet wrote: »

What evidence have you supplied to show such an opinion is worthy of embarrassment?

I asked for evidence that the MW legislation affects unemployment rates and was directed to the non sequitur:

Rib eye wrote: »

Em,

25% unemployment and youth emigration!

~ 450000 people in this country are unemployed because of minimum wage legislation?

Nothing to do with a housing boom? Nothing to do with the government stoking the conflagration that was the property pyramid and then pissing on its ashes by contracting spending?

Really?

Really?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Zab

Rib eye wrote: »

Austrailia was living in a bubble economy thanks to china buying everything they could get their hands on, which is now over btw,

Minimum wage laws aren't such a big problem when an economy is booming, cos labour supply is tight,

It's only when the boom is over that they do their damage,

And when reality bites down in Oz, guess which group is gonna be hardest hit by the high minimum wage law, young immegrent workers,

What do the young Irish boys do than?

Look, you can't say that young Johnny has been forced to move to Australia due to our minimum wage when Australia has a higher minimum wage. You can say he moved there because of unemployment here, and then argue that the unemployment is caused by the minimum wage, but then the minimum wage in Australia shows up your example as being poor.

I do think that it's clear that axing the minimum wage would increase employment in the short term at the very least. On the other hand maximising employment would not be my sole or even most important aim, and analysing the effect of a measure such as a minimum wage is impossible without taking into account all the other elements of the economy.

You seem to think that your opinion has been well stated and is factually based, but if you look at most of what you've written it's just comprised of statements that we're supposed to take as fact. For instance, please show that the Irish government is "monstrous" in size compared to similar countries, Australia for instance (although everybody is in agreement that it could do with slimming down). I think that in reality your position is a much more radical one than just dropping the minimum wage, and while I think that an anarcho-capitalist system makes for interesting debate, I think you'll find most would be against it.

Chuck Stone

UCDVet wrote: »

Do you have any evidence to support your claim that it is not 'unreasonable'? What criteria are you using to determine 'reasonable'...?

UCDVet wrote: »

What evidence have you supplied to show such an opinion is worthy of embarrassment?

This really is a very silly line you're taking, adds nothing to the discussion, and as much as amounts to 'no, you provide evidence'. Please note that I'm not making any claim - I'm asking for evidence for a claim.

I haven't taken a position on whether MW affects employment rates and am open to be influenced by a study on the issue.

Chuck Stone

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

At last. Someone provides a little evidence. Take note others who failed to.

I'll read a bit around this and come back to it.

Rib eye

Chuck Stone wrote: »

UCDVet wrote: »

What evidence have you supplied to show such an opinion is worthy of embarrassment?

I asked for evidence that the MW legislation affects unemployment rates and was directed to the non sequitur:

Rib eye wrote: »

Em,

25% unemployment and youth emigration!

~ 450000 people in this country are unemployed because of minimum wage legislation?

Nothing to do with a housing boom? Nothing to do with the government stoking the conflagration that was the property pyramid and then pissing on its ashes by contracting spending?

Really?

Really?

I'm saying it is a contributing factor, I don't think sensible people would interpret what I wrote as meaning MW was the sole cause!

Meirleach

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

At the same time as they are freezing the minimum wage for young workers, they are increasing it for the over 20s. Which if anything shows that the issue isn't as clearcut as many here would want us to believe.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Nl1/Newsroom/DG_201426

Rib eye

Zab wrote: »

Rib eye wrote: »

Austrailia was living in a bubble economy thanks to china buying everything they could get their hands on, which is now over btw,

Minimum wage laws aren't such a big problem when an economy is booming, cos labour supply is tight,

It's only when the boom is over that they do their damage,

And when reality bites down in Oz, guess which group is gonna be hardest hit by the high minimum wage law, young immegrent workers,

What do the young Irish boys do than?

Look, you can't say that young Johnny has been forced to move to Australia due to our minimum wage when Australia has a higher minimum wage. You can say he moved there because of unemployment here, and then argue that the unemployment is caused by the minimum wage, but then the minimum wage in Australia shows up your example as being poor.

I do think that it's clear that axing the minimum wage would increase employment in the short term at the very least. On the other hand maximising employment would not be my sole or even most important aim, and analysing the effect of a measure such as a minimum wage is impossible without taking into account all the other elements of the economy.

You seem to think that your opinion has been well stated and is factually based, but if you look at most of what you've written it's just comprised of statements that we're supposed to take as fact. For instance, please show that the Irish government is "monstrous" in size compared to similar countries, Australia for instance (although everybody is in agreement that it could do with slimming down). I think that in reality your position is a much more radical one than just dropping the minimum wage, and while I think that an anarcho-capitalist system makes for interesting debate, I think you'll find most would be against it.

Your assessment of my viewpoint is correct, I'm a Libertarian, and of course I support Dr Ron, anyone who's seen my posts on other sites knows that,

But what iv stated about MW isn't my opinion, it's well established economic fact,

Even people who have never opened an economics book understand that price is linked to both supply and demand,

Everyone knows what would happen if govt imposed a minimum price of €20 for a plump & juicy chicken?

I can't see why people can't see that exactly the same thing happens when govt imposes a minimum price for for workers,

Bemuses me so it does!

Chuck Stone

Rib eye wrote: »

I can't see why people can't see that exactly the same thing happens when govt imposes a minimum price for for workers,

Bemuses me so it does!

Because workers aren't dead birds and employers aren't hungry people.

Rib eye

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Rib eye wrote: »

I can't see why people can't see that exactly the same thing happens when govt imposes a minimum price for for workers,

Bemuses me so it does!

Because workers aren't dead birds and employers aren't hungry people.

An excellent rebuttal sir,

I withdraw my entire argument!

Chuck Stone

Rib eye wrote: »

An excellent rebuttal sir,

I withdraw my entire argument!

No worries.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Gauss

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Rib eye wrote: »

I can't see why people can't see that exactly the same thing happens when govt imposes a minimum price for for workers,

Bemuses me so it does!

Because workers aren't dead birds and employers aren't hungry people.

Chuck have a read of this, Hopefully you'll understand where we're coming from about removing the minimum wage.


http://thefreeeconomy.com/?page_id=513

The Bishop!

The 19th century called. They want their robber barons back.:pac:

For what it's worth, i do believe that unemployment might be reduced somewhat if minimum wage laws were scrapped. But at what cost? Exploitation?

I mean, if i could hire a few workers for my small business at €20 a day, i could drop my price to the client, undercut my competitors and probably get more work in. Win win right? After all there will always be some desperate people out there looking for work.

But it's just a race to the bottom really. And why should i be subsidised for my employment costs?
If i employ a worker at a wage below that which he or she can realistically live on without having to rely on welfare, charity or the support of friends or family just to survive, i am effectively being subsidised for my employment costs by them.

Minimum wage is about ensuring every worker exchanges their work for a wage that they can realistically live on without having to rely on state welfare, charity, friends or family.
The argument that nobody should intervene in any agreement between two parties to establish ethical laws and standards is overlooking the primary role of the modern social democratic state, which is to make society as fair as it can be for it's citizens, and minimum wage is part of that.

Chuck Stone

Gauss wrote: »

Chuck have a read of this, Hopefully you'll understand where we're coming from about removing the minimum wage.


http://thefreeeconomy.com/?page_id=513

Again, that is not evidence - it's a position on the issue not 'the truth'.

Have a read off this, hopefully you'll understand why I'm asking for evidence that MW legislation is an impediment to employment (disregarding how gainful the employment is or whether MW even comes close to a 'living wage').

The minimum wage in countries that rank within the lowest 20% of the pay scale is less than $2 per day, or about $57 per month. The minimum wage in the countries that represent the highest 20% of the pay scale is about $40 per day, or about $1,185 per month.

<snip>

From a mathematical and logical perspective, increasing the minimum wage does not lift anyone out of poverty because the prior minimum wage already paid more than the official poverty rate [US].

The numbers would seem to put the minimum wage argument to rest, but only because of the misaligned focus on the phrase "minimum wage". When referring to that phrase, many people actually seem to be seeking a living wage, which is generally defined as the amount required to raise a family on a single wage-earner's salary.

investopedia.com

Anyway, only considering people as 'homo economicus' is ridiculously reductive.

cloptrop

Op wants to create a society where the rich eat the poor and the poor eat each other.
Great .

Jimoslimos

Rib eye wrote: »

There are young Irish men a women currently living in Austrailia who would rather be living at home with their families, there are many reasons that they are there, Irish Minimum Wage Legislation is one those reasons,

Huh?

Irish Minimum Wage: €8.65 (AUD: 10.73)
Australian Minimum Wage: $15.00 (Euro: 12.10)

Not sure what you're arguing for??

Gauss

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Rib eye wrote: »

There are young Irish men a women currently living in Austrailia who would rather be living at home with their families, there are many reasons that they are there, Irish Minimum Wage Legislation is one those reasons,

Huh?

Irish Minimum Wage: €8.65 (AUD: 10.73)
Australian Minimum Wage: $15.00 (Euro: 12.10)

Not sure what you're arguing for??

In Australia they are worth more than the minimum wage, they aren't in Ireland.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Jimoslimos

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

We had (and still do) a welfare state to counteract any notions of cannabilism. Libertarianism would abolish SW whilst simultaneously doing away with MW.

Let's eat (,) everybody!

Rib eye

Gauss wrote: »

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Rib eye wrote: »

There are young Irish men a women currently living in Austrailia who would rather be living at home with their families, there are many reasons that they are there, Irish Minimum Wage Legislation is one those reasons,

Huh?

Irish Minimum Wage: €8.65 (AUD: 10.73)
Australian Minimum Wage: $15.00 (Euro: 12.10)

Not sure what you're arguing for??

In Australia they are worth more than the minimum wage, they aren't in Ireland.

Correct, unfortunatly that situation will soon come to an end!

Rib eye

Jimoslimos wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

We had (and still do) a welfare state to counteract any notions of cannabilism. Libertarianism would abolish SW whilst simultaneously doing away with MW.

Let's eat (,) everybody![/Quote]

I can't be sure, but I'm pretty certain that gobbling up your neighbours isnt compatible with Libertarianism,

Hang on, I'll email Dr Paul and see what he thinks:)

Jimoslimos

Rib eye wrote: »

I can't be sure, but I'm pretty certain that gobbling up your neighbours isnt compatible with Libertarianism,

Hang on, I'll email Dr Paul and see what he thinks:)

I checked with him, Ron said that anything on your property should be fair game for hunting, eating, etc....so invite the neighbours around!

Rib eye

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Rib eye wrote: »

I can't be sure, but I'm pretty certain that gobbling up your neighbours isnt compatible with Libertarianism,

Hang on, I'll email Dr Paul and see what he thinks:)

I checked with him, Ron said that anything on your property should be fair game for hunting, eating, etc....so invite the neighbours around!

Damn it, I wish I'd knowb that a few months ago, when Georgia Salpa was livin near me:)

Talk about tasty:)

hooradiation

UCDVet wrote: »

Nothing in that link supports your claim...

What part of "try harder, be better" are you having problems with?