Is college a privilege or a right?

steddyeddy

I’m not talking about education in general. I’m talking about progression from secondary school to third level education. Opinion here traditionally has been divided on the matter.

I think college should be only for a certain few but where some people think college is only for those who can afford it I think it is only for those intelligent enough for it and with the caveat that they should be right for the course or else they don’t get in. I.e. they should be able to articulate why they are right for the course.
There’s an argument that the default admittance to college should be based on those who can afford it regardless of how intelligent they are. That’s ludicrous in my opinion. I just don’t see how that would ensure we get the best and brightest into education if the people entering are predominantly from private schools. On the reverse side of that I previously talked about a lecturer who discriminated against those who went to private school when they applied for post grad positions.

Both of those positions have been the reality and both are wrong. Colleges in America like Stanford and MIT do well in part because they offer huge amounts of scholarships to the best and brightest. So that’s my position college isn’t a right it’s a privilege but it’s a privilege open only to those who are intelligent and right for a particular course. Two long we have been sections of the population who saw it as a right to Entry College because they were from a particular social economic group. That’s hasn’t attracted a huge amount of intelligent people to be honest and so imo it’s not working

So guys college a privilege or a right? If it should be a privilege is that privilege based on whether you can afford it or solely based on your suitability for the course and hard work or intelligence (I think intelligence isn’t a fixed thing either by the way)? If it’s a right then don’t stop at the poll let me know why you think it’s a right? By the way these are just my opinions there’s no reason to take them personally so I apologise in advance for any offence caused.

xDramaxQueenx

tldr

steddyeddy

xDramaxQueenx wrote: »

tldr

Well then surely someone who finds something to long to read should vote for the "academic ability doesnt matter option" :P. Joke!

af_thefragile

Its a right to all

Privilege.

Tell the kids in Africa they have a right to college education!!

Biggins

It should be open to only those who can afford it

Its should be right to all that wish to better themselves.
By also doing so, they can also be of then betterment perhaps to the state in return be it in big or small contribution.
We should count ourselves blessed that people wish to educate themselves and not wish to remain at the level of chattel.

I'm NOT saying we should pay for everyone - I'm saying we should not create road-blocks to education.

RMD

A right.

You don't have to pursue 3rd level education if you wish but if you want to it should be readily available. Ireland has a very fair system IMO, no allowances or biased admissions can be made, it's solely down to intelligence. For those who aren't financially able to afford it, a grant is available.

Galwayguy35

Its a right to all

No it's not a right.

Having said that grants should always be available to people from poorer backrounds so that those with a real interest in learning have the chance to go.

marketty

Biggins wrote: »

By also doing so, they can also be of then betterment perhaps to the state in return be it in big or small contribution.

Sorry?

Biggins

It should be open to only those who can afford it

marketty wrote: »

Sorry?

If in luck they get a chance to become more educated, maybe sometimes that education will lead to ideas and help to others while working in public service (a position taken up by own choice).

fits

Its a right to all

I know I have benefitted from it personally, but I dont believe in free third level education. In fact, I'd scrap it and reinvest the money in good quality municipal childcare.

steddyeddy

fits wrote: »

I know I have benefitted from it personally, but I dont believe in free third level education. In fact, I'd scrap it and reinvest the money in good quality municipal childcare.

But then you would only base college entry on people with wealthy parents or inheritence?

Biggins

It should be open to only those who can afford it

There should be a fifth option, just to be clearer:

"A right to all but entry should be based only on intelligence and academic ability to cope with desired course."

?

fits

Its a right to all

steddyeddy wrote: »

But then you would only base college entry on people with wealthy parents or inheritence?

Nope. The UK system. Government funded low interest loans. Graduates can then pay it back when they are employed.

Would also result in people really thinking about what they study at college. And you'd get a lot more engineers and a lot less arts graduates. Not that theres anything wrong with arts, but an awful lot of people do it just to do something.

juan.kerr

Does 'college' include Nail Technicial Courses etc?

steddyeddy

Biggins wrote: »

There should be a fifth option, just to be clearer:

"A right to all but entry should be based only on intelligence and academic ability to cope with desired course."

?

Agree Im sure Im quite crap at coming up with poll options. If a mod could facilitate the addition of that option I would be grateful.

Galwayguy35

Its a right to all

Let those on high salaries pay to send their kids to college, say anyone earning over 100k a year.

I really don't see why anyone would have a problem with this.

syklops

RMD wrote: »

A right.

You don't have to pursue 3rd level education if you wish but if you want to it should be readily available. Ireland has a very fair system IMO, no allowances or biased admissions can be made, it's solely down to intelligence. For those who aren't financially able to afford it, a grant is available.

The grant :rolleyes:

The grant is available if you are a farmers son or daughter. If your Dad happens to be self-employed in many cases it is rejected.

juan.kerr

Since when did we become a society where the moderately well off pay for every state service they use many times over and those less well off have a right to the same services without paying a cent?

Gauss

It most definitely shouldn't be a right to have your expensive college education completely funded by other people. There need's to be fees. Of course in certain circumstances I believe there should be grants to help out.

fits

Its a right to all

syklops wrote: »

The grant is available if you are a farmers son or daughter. If your Dad happens to be self-employed in many cases it is rejected.

I'm sorry but thats bull****. I was a farmers daughter and no grant. ITs means tested and a lot of farmers dont have the means. :rolleyes:

syklops

fits wrote: »

I'm sorry but thats bull****. I was a farmers daughter and no grant. ITs means tested and a lot of farmers dont have the means. :rolleyes:

Things may have changed recently, but when my sister was going to college this was the case. Its not bullsh1t. Its maybe just bullsh1t in your case.

fits

Its a right to all

syklops wrote: »

Things may have changed recently, but when my sister was going to college this was the case. Its not bullsh1t. Its maybe just bullsh1t in your case.

Whats wrong with farmers children getting grants? Have you looked up the average farm income recently?

ScumLord

It's neither of those things. College is a service for those that want to further their education. IF you want to get to an endpoint of understanding then you might find a college course that will get you to that point.

another question

I think it should be open to anyone who has a GENUINE INTEREST in studying something in particular...if they cannot afford it but want to better themselves, then of course funding should be available to them.

However, what gets me the most is the amount paid out in college grants to all those students who think they have an automatic entitlement to a third level education even though they haven't a clue what do to, make little or no effort when they are there and spend their maintanence grants on boozing and clothes.

College/University isn't a lifestyle or fashion show, they are mean't to be there to learn. All you have to do is walk down Grafton Street or Shop Street on a weekday afternoon and see they heavily make-up clad girls with hair styled and dripping in fashion and pouts walking around with an attitude and the guys are as bad.

It's the students you don't see that are actually in their bedrooms, at a desk doing some study.

MsQuinn

Its a right to all

I went to college. It was my right, I had the intelligence and acedemic ability and my parents could afford it.

Spent my time in the canteen, in the pub or in my bed. Couldn't be arsed putting in any effort and hardly went to any classes. Still managed to pass but looking back now, I should have been kicked out because of my lack of commitment.

College is a privilege and wasted on the likes of myself.

another question

And furthermore, I have a sister in NUIG and she has about 5 hours worth of lectures a week and rent was in excess of €5500 for the year for her to stay up there. This is ridiculous, a full-time job is 8 hours a day minimum. This is an area of copious money wastage and colleges should be doing their part to look into this.

I also know someone else who had to give up a job in Penney's because their contracts mean you have to be available for work Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday but she couldn't work Thursday as she had (1 lecture) from 6pm-7pm that day and nothing on Friday. One word - crazy!

fits

Its a right to all

MsQuinn wrote: »

I went to college. It was my right, I had the intelligence and acedemic ability and my parents could afford it.

Spent my time in the canteen, in the pub or in my bed. Couldn't be arsed putting in any effort and hardly went to any classes. Still managed to pass but looking back now, I should have been kicked out because of my lack of commitment.

College is a privilege and wasted on the likes of myself.

I had the pleasure of teaching some mature students last year and they absolutely put my college-going self to shame. I suppose I came good in the end but I was never nearly as dedicated as my students were.

syklops

fits wrote: »

Whats wrong with farmers children getting grants? Have you looked up the average farm income recently?

"Average income". More rolleyes.


I have nothing against farmers. Im from a rural community. Nor do I have anyhting against farmers getting the grant if they need it. What i have a problem with is people, arbitrarily getting the grant because they are poor on paper, and the selection process ignoring things like land which they have recently sold.

Like I said maybe things have improved, but when my sister applied for the grant the first time about 8 years ago, all the farmers in her class got the grant, and all the self-employed did not.

another question

syklops wrote: »

"Average income". More rolleyes.


I have nothing against farmers. Im from a rural community. Nor do I have anyhting against farmers getting the grant if they need it. What i have a problem with is people, arbitrarily getting the grant because they are poor on paper, and the selection process ignoring things like land which they have recently sold.

Like I said maybe things have improved, but when my sister applied for the grant the first time about 8 years ago, all the farmers in her class got the grant, and all the self-employed did not.

'Poor on paper'. This sums up the problem entirely. Nothing against farmers either but the amount of parents that do not declare their savings on grant applications is an exponential amount - thus they are 'poor on paper' but are by no means poor.

mikemac1

syklops wrote: »

The grant :rolleyes:

The grant is available if you are a farmers son or daughter.

Over a decade since I first applied for the grant

Yeah we had a farm and a full set of accounts had to be submitted.
The local IFAC prepares them

After that expense you wait several weeks for a letter looking for more information.

And when you get approved it's at least November.
It was January one year when the grant came through

You make it sound like you lie about a few figures on a one page form.
It's a full set of accounts that get you approved

fits

Its a right to all

syklops wrote: »

Like I said maybe things have improved, but when my sister applied for the grant the first time about 8 years ago, all the farmers in her class got the grant, and all the self-employed did not.

8 years ago as in 2004 right? So in 2004 the poor struggling self employed didnt get the grant and the farmers rolling in it did.

hmm...

Do you want to think about that again? :D:D

I think it's a privilege which should only be available to those who have shown academic aptitude. Right now, anyone who fancies it can go, availing of a generous grant as well. That's just not fair. Scholarships should be provided to those who are intelligent and academic, regardless of family income. There could also be a limited number of places available to people who have been truly disadvantaged and have underachieved because of that. Those who fail courses without a valid reason should have to leave and pay back any grant they received.

University has become a joke. There is no need to go to university to do stuff like Hotel Management. That should be learned on the job, with evening classes at a local college. I think university should be for academic subjects, which is how it used to be.

syklops

fits wrote: »

8 years ago as in 2004 right? So in 2004 the poor struggling self employed didnt get the grant and the farmers rolling in it did.

hmm...

Do you want to think about that again? :D:D

I dont need to think about it again i was there. My dad didnt have 2 pennies to rub together but my sisters grant application was rejected, meanwhile her classmate whose dad bred and raced horses, kept livestock and had recently sold a load of land did get the grant. There is a disconnect here somewhere.

I am sorry if i offended you fits, and I am sorry if I offended you mikemac1. I am sorry if I offended any farmer. I was not suggesting that every farmer in the country is on the fiddle. I am suggesting that the current system, if it is the same as back then is broken and needs to be fixed.

mikemac1

Well now, Charlie McCreevy was around in 2004 and there was a load of tax breaks in the horse breeding area.
Charlie from Kildare, that's what he wanted to support.

I wouldn't use a horse breeder as an example of a typical Irish family farm

hattoncracker

I think it should be a right if you're motivated enough, but at the moment it's a privilege.

At the moment I'm one of those students who falls between the cracks, in terms of financial aid.

I'm a mature who decided I didn't want to work in retail for the rest of my life, and didn't realise that if you're not unemployed, and you try to pay your own way you get basically no support.

I got the adjacent grant which is €100 a month, and fees paid and the rest of it I have to come up with myself. and there is a constant pressure on me because if I lose my Job and can't get another one I'm screwed. No dole because I'm unavailable for work,, even though I've never been on it and have worked since I was 18, no rent allowance, no BTEA because I can't get dole and my course has already started..

I took a year out due to money issues, and I'm due to go back in January, am having trouble getting my grant reinstated because I don't have a bill or bank statement dated for the month of October last year, even though I've already proved my independence.. But if I can't prove it I can't come back and thats it. I would love for a student loan system to be in place, because I could avail of that. I wish there was a system like that here, at the moment I have to work twice as hard to get half as far..

For me at the moment its a privilege, though not one I think I'm going to be able to afford to keep.

fits

Its a right to all

mikemac1 wrote: »

I wouldn't use a horse breeder as an example of a typical Irish family farm

Why not? Many farmers keep a few horses and many keep thoroughbreds. There was a bit of money in it at that time (when livestock were doing particularly badly) if you knew what you were doing. but its not necessarily an indication of wealth or good income. Not at all.

Certainly in my area its not.

fits

Its a right to all

hattoncracker wrote: »

I think it should be a right if you're motivated enough, but at the moment it's a privilege.

At the moment I'm one of those students who falls between the cracks, in terms of financial aid.

I'm a mature who decided I didn't want to work in retail for the rest of my life, and didn't realise that if you're not unemployed, and you try to pay your own way you get basically no support.

This really isnt fair I dont understand why people on the dole for the last year get so much more support than people who were working.

Whatsernamex33

Its a right to all

Kind of divided on it. Mostly a right.


You have some people who'll work hard to achieve what they want and work hard to get there and if they've worked hard they deserve to be in college and that's where I think it's their right to a third level education.

Then you have the other half who paid their way in thousands through private colleges just because they didn't work hard enough for their Leaving. Not talking about anyone in particular. :rolleyes: but that's where I think it's a privilege. That they get into a private college with lower points at 250 etc. with very little study, while you've others slaving away at study for a college course at 400+. Again, you could argue the point if they can afford the fees, it's noone else's business.

hattoncracker

fits wrote: »

hattoncracker wrote: »

I think it should be a right if you're motivated enough, but at the moment it's a privilege.

At the moment I'm one of those students who falls between the cracks, in terms of financial aid.

I'm a mature who decided I didn't want to work in retail for the rest of my life, and didn't realise that if you're not unemployed, and you try to pay your own way you get basically no support.

This really isnt fair I dont understand why people on the dole for the last year get so much more support than people who were working.

I used to get really angry about it, especially when I was going straight from exams to work, because its xmas and I am contractually obliged to work, or from work to labs or whatever.. But I got over it, because it would make me stronger if I was able to finish it. every other mature in my course got BTEA. When they were getting their book allowance I was struggling to afford the bus to college but such is life. And I couldn't resent them for their circumstances.

The drinking and socialising bit wouldn't be my scene at all, so no bother there but having enough money to not have to constantly be worrying about it would be nice. My family live on the other end of the country so it's not like I can move home and commute!

kodoherty93

It should be open to only those who can afford it

At the end of the day a course that requires 500 points is given to the person who get 500 points. The cao doesn't go we will let the student from the private school in with 450 cause he went to a private school.

I have gone to a private school where its academics focused. If you went into the school at 8 am(the school was in the city centre) of the morning of an exam you could find half the year studying. Private schools are competitive and it's not the parents pushing their children. It's the students competiting with each other.

Everyone wants an A in their tests and will study for hours for it. The private school I went to wasn't about how much money you had or who your father was. The typical job was a nurse or an engineer. In my class of 25 students both parents had a job. There was no stay a home mothers as two jobs were needed for paying fees etc.

This year all students bar 3 in a year of a hundred are going onto further education.
Private schools out perform public schools as the students plus themselves really hard and get themselves into college

another question

kodoherty93 wrote: »

At the end of the day a course that requires 500 points is given to the person who get 500 points. The cao doesn't go we will let the student from the private school in with 450 cause he went to a private school.

I have gone to a private school where its academics focused. If you went into the school at 8 am(the school was in the city centre) of the morning of an exam you could find half the year studying. Private schools are competitive and it's not the parents pushing their children. It's the students competiting with each other.

Everyone wants an A in their tests and will study for hours for it. The private school I went to wasn't about how much money you had or who your father was. The typical job was a nurse or an engineer. In my class of 25 students both parents had a job. There was no stay a home mothers as two jobs were needed for paying fees etc.

This year all students bar 3 in a year of a hundred are going onto further education.
Private schools out perform public schools as the students plus themselves really hard and get themselves into college

Although I agree mainly with what you are saying...you example of a course needing 500pts given to a student getting 500pts is flawed like the CAO system because unforntunately, in this country, the points required for coures reflect their popularity only and not the academic level required to study them and this is a major problem.

Geekness1234

kodoherty93 wrote: »

At the end of the day a course that requires 500 points is given to the person who get 500 points. The cao doesn't go we will let the student from the private school in with 450 cause he went to a private school.

I have gone to a private school where its academics focused. If you went into the school at 8 am(the school was in the city centre) of the morning of an exam you could find half the year studying. Private schools are competitive and it's not the parents pushing their children. It's the students competiting with each other.

Everyone wants an A in their tests and will study for hours for it. The private school I went to wasn't about how much money you had or who your father was. The typical job was a nurse or an engineer. In my class of 25 students both parents had a job. There was no stay a home mothers as two jobs were needed for paying fees etc.

This year all students bar 3 in a year of a hundred are going onto further education.
Private schools out perform public schools as the students plus themselves really hard and get themselves into college

*cough* Institute *cough*

Ziphius

Its a right to all

Of course college education is a privilege. I feel very privileged because of my education. Having said that a college education is not just for the privileged in society (by which I mean the wealthy or well-connected). Everyone should be given the opportunity to gain an education. And I believe grants and scholarships are needed to ensure those that can not afford it are given their chance.

We need to break this ridiculous notion that Irish society is divided dichotomously into those too poor to pay there own way and a super wealthy won't-even-notice-the-cost caste who are forced to pick up slack.

Many middle class family receive no state support to educate their children and make huge sacrifices such taking out loans, giving up savings, and cutting back on expenditure.

another question wrote: »

And furthermore, I have a sister in NUIG and she has about 5 hours worth of lectures a week and rent was in excess of €5500 for the year for her to stay up there. This is ridiculous, a full-time job is 8 hours a day minimum. This is an area of copious money wastage and colleges should be doing their part to look into this.

I also know someone else who had to give up a job in Penney's because their contracts mean you have to be available for work Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday but she couldn't work Thursday as she had (1 lecture) from 6pm-7pm that day and nothing on Friday. One word - crazy!

There are myriad other activities a student should be doing outside of lectures. To list them all would be tediously trite. There is a reason it's called reading for a degree not sitting about in lectures for one.

Paying a high rent was an economic decision that your sister made. It's nothing to do with the college. It's not a creche.

kodoherty93

It should be open to only those who can afford it

Geekness1234 wrote: »

kodoherty93 wrote: »

At the end of the day a course that requires 500 points is given to the person who get 500 points. The cao doesn't go we will let the student from the private school in with 450 cause he went to a private school.

I have gone to a private school where its academics focused. If you went into the school at 8 am(the school was in the city centre) of the morning of an exam you could find half the year studying. Private schools are competitive and it's not the parents pushing their children. It's the students competiting with each other.

Everyone wants an A in their tests and will study for hours for it. The private school I went to wasn't about how much money you had or who your father was. The typical job was a nurse or an engineer. In my class of 25 students both parents had a job. There was no stay a home mothers as two jobs were needed for paying fees etc.

This year all students bar 3 in a year of a hundred are going onto further education.
Private schools out perform public schools as the students plus themselves really hard and get themselves into college

*cough* Institute *cough*

No just an average private schoo not a grind school

Little Acorn

Allie Agreeable Refrigeration wrote: »

I think it's a privilege which should only be available to those who have shown academic aptitude. Right now, anyone who fancies it can go, availing of a generous grant as well. That's just not fair. Scholarships should be provided to those who are intelligent and academic, regardless of family income. There could also be a limited number of places available to people who have been truly disadvantaged and have underachieved because of that. Those who fail courses without a valid reason should have to leave and pay back any grant they received.

University has become a joke. There is no need to go to university to do stuff like Hotel Management. That should be learned on the job, with evening classes at a local college. I think university should be for academic subjects, which is how it used to be.

I mostly agree with you. I put the above part in bold though because I'm not sure our leaving cert system is very fair at proving academic aptitude. There are some people who might not be very good at many of the broad range of leaving cert subjects but could be excellent and work very well in a subject field on a college course.
So they might get just low to average points in the leaving cert but still make brilliant scientists after focusing on studying a science field in college.
Should they not get a grant because they haven't proved they are capable of getting 500 + points including subjects like Irish, Business etc. ?

Basically in this sense, I don't think our current system is concrete proof of "academic aptitude" so I don't think it would be fair to be judged on whether you get a grant based on your leaving certificate results.
Maybe if your results in individual subjects were looked at, eg. you get a few A's or B's in scientific subjects and maths - you get a grant for pursuing a scientific college course, and the same with other subjects etc. - maybe that would be fairer?

steddyeddy

syklops wrote: »

I dont need to think about it again i was there. My dad didnt have 2 pennies to rub together but my sisters grant application was rejected, meanwhile her classmate whose dad bred and raced horses, kept livestock and had recently sold a load of land did get the grant. There is a disconnect here somewhere.

I am sorry if i offended you fits, and I am sorry if I offended you mikemac1. I am sorry if I offended any farmer. I was not suggesting that every farmer in the country is on the fiddle. I am suggesting that the current system, if it is the same as back then is broken and needs to be fixed.

Well I agree with you skylops and that issue is being addressed by labour as regards certain parties fixing the books in order to recieve grants.

Heres an article in the indo about it.

THE chairman of the Labour Party has thrown his weight behind controversial farmer proposals to include public sector pensions in any new means tests for student grants.
Galway TD Colm Keaveney's support for the move could wrong foot farmer lobby groups, who yesterday raised the prospect to counter the possibility of savings accounts and second homes also being used in means tests.
The Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers' Association (ICMSA) reacted angrily when the Irish Independent revealed thousands of people with large savings or second homes could be hit.
It comes as Education Minister Ruairi Quinn is already facing strong opposition from Fine Gael backbenchers over the prospect of farmland and business premises being included in the means test for the first time.
John Comer, the president of the ICMSA, yesterday said "simple justice dictated that the kind of gold-plated pensions only available to the public sector and politicians would be similarly classified as wealth".
The ICMSA and the Irish Farmers' Association are vehemently opposed to the idea of assets being included in the means tests, and Mr Quinn is due to receive a special report on overhauling the grants system "shortly", a spokeswoman for his department said.
However, she refused to be drawn on whether savings, second homes, assets or pensions will be included in means tests.
But Mr Comer said: "Minister Quinn and those calling for such a broad-based classification of wealth could not -- with any degree of consistency -- argue that a guaranteed pension provision of half a final salary together with a tax-free cash lump sum equal to a multiple of final salary did not constitute wealth.
"If Minister Quinn refuses to recognise that public sector pensions were wealth comparable with -- and indeed, hugely superior to -- the assets that he is reported to be considering, then it will be obvious his proposed changes are one-sided and discriminatory."
The ICMSA suggestion was backed by Mr Keaveney, a former president of the Union of Students of Ireland (USI), who has also been one of the strongest advocates of means testing assets.
"If it was part of a group of measures to include a greater catalogue of wealth, then so be it," Mr Keaveney said, but added that if public sector pensions are included, private pensions should be too.
The Galway East TD also said including pensions as part of the means test could lead to changes in tax reliefs, and added that many people saw their pensions as assets, not income.
And the idea of second homes being included in the means test also drew further ire from some Fine Gael TDs.
Mayo's Michelle Mulherin said "a lot of capital assets people have at the moment are causing nothing but trouble".
Ms Mulherin said people who owned second homes should not be penalised under means tests unless they were drawing incomes from their properties, such as rent.
"The problem with people who have second or third homes is that they may be maintaining loans on those properties and their money is just going to the banks. It is unfair to penalise assets with no income, and to put notional value on assets."

steddyeddy

another question wrote: »

Although I agree mainly with what you are saying...you example of a course needing 500pts given to a student getting 500pts is flawed like the CAO system because unforntunately, in this country, the points required for coures reflect their popularity only and not the academic level required to study them and this is a major problem.

Thats a problem as well. Medicine is 600 points entry (for arguments sake) science was around 400 points a few years ago. With 400 points you could be doing science and from that focus on biochemsitry or astro physics both of which require far more academic ability than medicine. Thats why interviews are important in my opinion. The colleges should be trying to fix this themselves and not rely on the broke cao system.

Little Acorn

Little Acorn wrote: »

I mostly agree with you. I put the above part in bold though because I'm not sure our leaving cert system is very fair at proving academic aptitude. There are some people who might not be very good at many of the broad range of leaving cert subjects but could be excellent and work very well in a subject field on a college course.
So they might get just low to average points in the leaving cert but still make brilliant scientists after focusing on studying a science field in college.
Should they not get a grant because they haven't proved they are capable of getting 500 + points including subjects like Irish, Business etc. ?

Basically in this sense, I don't think our current system is concrete proof of "academic aptitude" so I don't think it would be fair to be judged on whether you get a grant based on your leaving certificate results.
Maybe if your results in individual subjects were looked at, eg. you get a few A's or B's in scientific subjects and maths - you get a grant for pursuing a scientific college course, and the same with other subjects etc. - maybe that would be fairer?

I didn't mean points in the Leaving. I think the whole points system is very unfair. I meant by looking at individual results for the subject you want to study, as you suggested, or perhaps by entrance exams set by the college departments. Most of the Masters courses I applied for had their own entrance exams and interviews with tutors - why can't undergrad be done in a similar way? Much more effective at weeding out people who don't want to be there or don't have the ability to do well.

Taco Chips

steddyeddy wrote: »

Thats a problem as well. Medicine is 600 points entry (for arguments sake) science was around 400 points a few years ago. With 400 points you could be doing science and from that focus on biochemsitry or astro physics both of which require far more academic ability than medicine.

Medical students study biochemistry.

steddyeddy

Taco Chips wrote: »

Medical students study biochemistry.

I know they do but not to the level of a 4th year biochemist.

longhalloween

It should be open to only those who can afford it

MsQuinn wrote: »

I went to college. It was my right, I had the intelligence and acedemic ability and my parents could afford it.

Spent my time in the canteen, in the pub or in my bed. Couldn't be arsed putting in any effort and hardly went to any classes. Still managed to pass but looking back now, I should have been kicked out because of my lack of commitment.

College is a privilege and wasted on the likes of myself.

I was exactly the same. Ended up with a sh*t useless degree that didn't get me anywhere.

Now 3 years of working minimum wage jobs with no prospects has given me the kick up the ass I need. I'm back in college with the full intention of getting a first and starting a career as soon as I finish.