Samaritans: Why 3,000 middle-aged men die by suicide each year (in the UK & Ireland)

jill_valentine

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

I agree with this also and I think up for anything has unfairly come in for a lot of flak in this thread. There is merit in saying that women feel they are more 'needed' by various people in their lives and that this can prevent feelings of worthlessness which can lead to suicidal thoughts.

It's worth noting that, while the suicide rate among young men in Ireland is far higher than that of women, the rate of depression recorded is universally - in Ireland and the world over - far higher among women, and in particular women over 50. Since recording assumes that the patients reported it to somebody, it seems likely to me that the disparity in treatment - seeking it or dispensing it - is a major factor.

At any rate, I think it may be more complicated than it seems to usefully interpret these figures.

Reku

jill_valentine wrote: »

It's worth noting that, while the suicide rate among young men in Ireland is far higher than that of women, the rate of depression recorded is universally - in Ireland and the world over - far higher among women, and in particular women over 50.

I always find it ridiculous that people rely upon those statistics for anything, as I'm pretty certain that you'll find a very significant portion of suicides will never have been medically reported as "depressed". Consider also the fact that women are known to far more readily consult a doctor over any ailment and you can see the serious flaw in any claim, that women suffer from depression more than men, which is based off of these figures.

Piliger

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

I agree with this also and I think up for anything has unfairly come in for a lot of flak in this thread. There is merit in saying that women feel they are more 'needed' by various people in their lives and that this can prevent feelings of worthlessness which can lead to suicidal thoughts.

Please note the difference between 'feeling' needed and 'being' needed. Women 'feel' needed because of the sexist and biased culture we are now living in that is devaluing men and their contribution to family and life.

But the truth is that men 'are' needed just as much, but we are continually marginalised by the system and by the campaigns of the feminist movement.

Piliger

Reku wrote: »

I always find it ridiculous that people rely upon those statistics for anything, as I'm pretty certain that you'll find a very significant portion of suicides will never have been medically reported as "depressed". Consider also the fact that women are known to far more readily consult a doctor over any ailment and you can see the serious flaw in any claim, that women suffer from depression more than men, which is based off of these figures.

Your point is well made and it seems to be self evident to anyone who brings a modicum of sense to the topic.

All of these statistics are hugely influenced by a couple of factors:

a) they are all generated by groups with a vested interest in high numbers.
b) they are distorted by the continual change in society that is bringing more openness and more willingness among people to actually say yes they are depressed, suicidal, have been abused or assaulted or raped.
c) Men are different to women. Women are different to men. Their behaviour is different and as you say above, they don't visit their GP anything like as much or report psychological issues anything like as much.

Defiler Of The Coffin

Piliger wrote: »

Please note the difference between 'feeling' needed and 'being' needed. Women 'feel' needed because of the sexist and biased culture we are now living in that is devaluing men and their contribution to family and life.

But the truth is that men 'are' needed just as much, but we are continually marginalised by the system and by the campaigns of the feminist movement.

In fairness I did say 'feel needed' as opposed to 'are needed'. But how do you reckon men are marginalised by society? Through the family courts? All this talk of being marginalised by feminist campaigns and the system sound a bit vague to me

Pawwed Rig

If you read the "men's rights" thread or the thread 'In what ways are men discriminated against? ' it will give many examples of where men are marginalised. In particular as you have mentioned with respect to families.

Piliger

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

If you read the "men's rights" thread or the thread 'In what ways are men discriminated against? ' it will give many examples of where men are marginalised. In particular as you have mentioned with respect to families.

Exactly.

sha the man

are people actually surprised at this and if so why. the stats whilst they are sad can hardly be surprising. i have these feeling every day and i am only 30. i personally no longer have a place in society i am taken out of the proverbial sellafane at Christmas birthdays and so on and the like and expected to go though the motions which i do. the rest of the time i am quietly managed. we as men no longer have a reason to live. we are no longer in charge of anything of any relevance. we are no longer masters either inside or outside. what is the point of our existence. i have no college education and i am not able to study. the semi skilled jobs that i would have done are gone to china or eastern Europe of wherever. yes i can "survive" on the dole but it is not living. it is emasculating not to be bring in the "bread". tbh i would rather be dead then continue on this pointless existence. to the Samaritans no offense but no amount of BS talking or tea and sympathy is going to change the above situation. woman for better or worse no longer need us. we have become as useful as a video cassette player. where i am we have no person a week throwing themselves into the river. personally i cannot see myself getting to 40 like this. it is not living it is a stagnant pointless existence a sort of limbo just waiting to die

Piliger

SNIP- petition spam removed

This is a naive and disingenuous and dishonest advertisement.

This advert claims that such a Suicide Prevention Authority can reduce suicides by the same amount as the Road Safety Authority ? what dishonest nonsense. Suicide is a deeply complex act and it is caused by equally complex issues in people's lives. The suggestion that such an Authority can wipe away such issues is utterly dishonest and in my view self serving.

This advert also claims that all suicides are preventable. This is another utterly dishonest claim.

Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore correctly said “Suicide is a problem that is not solvable simply by putting in place a State office or body to deal with the issue.” Mr Gilmore said that, instead, what must be done was to address the causes of suicide through the health service and more widely in society.

NOWHERE does this 3TS campaigning organisation set out what this Suicide Prevention Authority would do. NOWHERE does it set out what steps this proposed Suicide Prevention Authority would take to achieve these amazing claims. NOWHERE does it set out what policies, what solutions, what strategies this Suicide Prevention Authority would put in affect that would make these amazing claims come true.

This is just another self serving campaign by a special interest organisation. They want to achieve something worthwhile, but all they can do is campaign for an 'authority' with no plans, so strategy, no convincing argument as to why this 'authority' would achieve anything whatsoever except cost the tax payers a fortune.

Suicide is a choice made by desperate people, in desperate situations. Nothing can be done about people choosing suicide unless either the situations in which they find themselves can be changed, or people can be given the emotional tools with which to endure deeply challenging times in their lives without sinking into despair. And such tools will only help a minority in my view. A few TV campaigns and a helpline that cannot give actual advice will change nothing.

Action to promote men's rights, and to remove the prejudice and bias in our culture against men in areas such as family rights would do far more to lower the rate of suicide than any such Authority.

Pawwed Rig

I think that is probably a harsh assessment Piliger. I agree with you to an extent but if an org or authority can raise some level of awareness then it would be worthwhile.
Having said that I have not heard of this group before or to the founders although he seems to have the right kinds of qualifications.

Piliger

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I think that is probably a harsh assessment Piliger. I agree with you to an extent but if an org or authority can raise some level of awareness then it would be worthwhile.
Having said that I have not heard of this group before or to the founders although he seems to have the right kinds of qualifications.

I may appear harsh, but I think what you say is wrong ... they don't want to just raise the profile of a 'good cause'. They want to launch a new Suicide Authority with no plan, no strategy, no formula and a LOT of tax payers money. They also make false claims in their advert.

'Raising awareness' justifies this ? I don't think so.

No offence, but it's not good enough to excuse this kind of thing behind a 'good cause'.

Pawwed Rig

Ok as I said I have not heard of the group but if you know for a fact that they are being disingenuous and in it for profit then I can accept your reluctance to take what they say at face value. Maybe the poster could respond.

Bit confused was the post cut?

Piliger

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Ok as I said I have not heard of the group but if you know for a fact that they are being disingenuous and in it for profit . . .

Excuse me ? where did I say anything of the kind ? I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me but please make an effort NOT to assign statements to me that I NEVER made.

Pawwed Rig

So what are you saying? Why shouldn't we take this group seriously? No need to get defensive here

Kimia

I would have thought that any group raising awareness of suicide would be a good thing. Suicide continues to be a massive taboo in Irish society. Consider the family of a person who dies by suicide - they face a very different reality than a family of a person who dies of cancer. When someone dies of 'natural causes' the family would receive sympathy, empathy etc, but when someone dies of suicide, it appears that the usual reaction is 'why', and as a parent/family member/spouse the reaction can also be 'what could i have done to prevent this', or even by others, 'what could they have done to prevent this?'.

You also have the complex issue of grief after suicide. The perpetrator and the victim are one in the same so it's incredibly difficult to find any kind of peace or acceptance, ever. It's almost impossible to comprehend how difficult it must be.

Put all these issues together and you have a very real issue facing society which is wrapped up in guilt and shame, which anyone would want to shy away from. So raising awareness of suicide as a phenomenon, and making the effort to understand why it happens and what suicidal people are feeling, is hugely important.

I can't think of anything more important tbh. People don't kill themselves because they want to die, they kill themselves because they cannot continue living their lives that way (whatever way that is). If we remove the taboo around talking about it / dealing with the grief of families without judgement, then the aim is that suicidal people will feel less isolated and hopeless. That is the two main reasons identified as suicidal thoughts so remove them, or alleviate them in even a small way (by understanding and increased awareness) will result in a decrease in suicide attempts. That is the hope anyway.

Pawwed Rig

Kimia wrote: »

Consider the family of a person who dies by suicide - they face a very different reality than a family of a person who dies of cancer. When someone dies of 'natural causes' the family would receive sympathy, empathy etc, but when someone dies of suicide, it appears that the usual reaction is 'why', and as a parent/family member/spouse the reaction can also be 'what could i have done to prevent this', or even by others, 'what could they have done to prevent this?'.

Or indeed what did they do that caused this.

The real difference between suicide and the road death issue is how to reach the potential victims. The road death issue was improved by a joined up strategy of education, shock tactics and enforcement. Suicide is different in this regard as we can really only focus on education. It is very difficult to determine where someone will ultimately commit suicide so therefore very difficult to intervene. I agree with Piliger to the extent that the causes of suicide need to be addressed to ultimately solve the problem. These causes are many and complex and cannot simply be put down to men's rights (but I agree that this is one of the causes). These kind of groups can raise awareness more of mental health issues which will (hopefully) ultimately reduce the headline figures. So yes I think these groups can help but that does not necessarily mean each individual group is deserving of funding.

Piliger

Kimia wrote: »

I would have thought that any group raising awareness of suicide would be a good thing.

I agree.

Suicide continues to be a massive taboo in Irish society.

It's a taboo subject in all societies.

Consider the family of a person who dies by suicide - they face a very different reality than a family of a person who dies of cancer. When someone dies of 'natural causes' the family would receive sympathy, empathy etc, but when someone dies of suicide, it appears that the usual reaction is 'why', and as a parent/family member/spouse the reaction can also be 'what could i have done to prevent this', or even by others, 'what could they have done to prevent this?'.

So you say that the people we should have most sympathy with are the ones left behind ?

You also have the complex issue of grief after suicide. The perpetrator and the victim are one in the same so it's incredibly difficult to find any kind of peace or acceptance, ever. It's almost impossible to comprehend how difficult it must be.

Lots of things are difficult in life. I personally have more sympathy with the person considering suicide and their predicament.

Put all these issues together and you have a very real issue facing society which is wrapped up in guilt and shame, which anyone would want to shy away from. So raising awareness of suicide as a phenomenon, and making the effort to understand why it happens and what suicidal people are feeling, is hugely important.

I agree.

I can't think of anything more important tbh. People don't kill themselves because they want to die, they kill themselves because they cannot continue living their lives that way (whatever way that is). If we remove the taboo around talking about it / dealing with the grief of families without judgement, then the aim is that suicidal people will feel less isolated and hopeless. That is the two main reasons identified as suicidal thoughts so remove them, or alleviate them in even a small way (by understanding and increased awareness) will result in a decrease in suicide attempts. That is the hope anyway.

It is the hope but I don't personally buy into this simplistic analysis. People sometimes commit suicide for real and unavoidable reasons. They can't always be washed away by talking about them.

Kimia

Piliger wrote: »

I agree.
It's a taboo subject in all societies.
So you say that the people we should have most sympathy with are the ones left behind ?

That's quite a leap. It's certainly not clear to me where I said this although perhaps that's one way of looking at it. Personally, I don't believe this, no.

Piliger wrote: »

Lots of things are difficult in life. I personally have more sympathy with the person considering suicide and their predicament.

That's your prerogative. Personally I don't understand the need to choose one over the other - can't one be sympathetic to everyone affected by suicide?

Piliger wrote: »

It is the hope but I don't personally buy into this simplistic analysis. People sometimes commit suicide for real and unavoidable reasons. They can't always be washed away by talking about them.

It's regrettable that you portray yourself in such a defensive and antagonistic manner. I think isolation and hopelessness are very real reasons, borne from personal and subjective experiences that we have no knowledge of.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that they should be washed away or discounted. I think the opposite in fact.

iptba

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/a-doctors-fears-3290034.html

A doctor's fears
Saturday November 10 2012
13 Comments

• A word of warning to the Government on the upcoming Budget. As a GP, I'm shocked at the amount of depression, despair and suicidal ideation I have had to deal with in the past few months, mainly in middle-aged men who are under extreme financial pressure.

We are close to a tipping point, and any severe demands in the Budget will see a definite rise in suicide. Being the "good boys of Europe" and doing what we are told in the eyes of the troika and the Germans is not necessarily good for the Irish people. We need to row back for a year or so and offer these tortured people some hope.

Name and address with editor

Irish Independent

This reminds me of the quote:

“A woman worries about the future until she gets a husband, while a man never worries about the future until he gets a wife.”

Kimia

iptba wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/a-doctors-fears-3290034.html


This reminds me of the quote:

How does that remind of you of that quote?

iptba

Kimia wrote: »

How does that remind of you of that quote?

For whatever reason, it seems there is more pressure on men to financially provide for a family, if necessary working longer hours or working in more dangerous environments to do this.

Piliger

Kimia wrote: »

That's quite a leap. It's certainly not clear to me where I said this although perhaps that's one way of looking at it. Personally, I don't believe this, no.

Read your own post.

That's your prerogative. Personally I don't understand the need to choose one over the other - can't one be sympathetic to everyone affected by suicide?

Yes one can. You chose not to. Hence my comment.

It's regrettable that you portray yourself in such a defensive and antagonistic manner.

So disagreeing with your view is antagonistic and defensive ... mmmm

I think isolation and hopelessness are very real reasons, borne from personal and subjective experiences that we have no knowledge of.

Speak for yourself. And yes they can be. But they don't represent 100% of suicides.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that they should be washed away or discounted. I think the opposite in fact.

Not if you watch the campaign advert being discussed above.

LeeHoffmann

Read your own post.

It´s a ridiculous leap

That's your prerogative. Personally I don't understand the need to choose one over the other - can't one be sympathetic to everyone affected by suicide?

Indeed.

You chose not to.

I really don´t see that in her post

martinnew

Guys.

Where do I start. I don't want to get into specifics here, mainly to protect the privacy of the families involved or rather the families that are grieving.

About 3 weeks ago a well known public figure in our town took his live. Much loved and respected. He was 39. Lived close.

A week to his death another guy around the same age does the same thing and leaves behind a young family.

Both Men had Jobs and were not under financial pressures.

Am still a little bit in Shock. But not suicidal.. just usual sadness. I have some good mates and we talk things out.

Anyway.. I decided to get some objective help to make sure I was coping and if I needed to do anything better. I called AWARE, Their lines were busy but there was a message to call the SAMARITANS instead, Which I did and they were helpful. pretty much gave me the advise I already knew, but not harm getting your problems checked and getting objective advise.


What I have found out..

1. There is no dedicated Mens Charity for Mental or Suicide Issues.
2. 87% of Suicides in Ireland are men.
3. 400+ Men take their lives in the republic every year
4. There is no unified suicide support helpline.. How many of you would know the number of any of them? Why don't we have one number that could direct users to the various charities that support this? Everyone would know the number for directory enquiries 11890... Why don't we have a number like this for Crisis Support?

I suppose the worst thing about the whole experience was that people won't talk about it. Its happened, they are buried. In fact the 2nd suicide was nearly rushed to get him buried. Too painful to give more facts.

I am not from the area.... But one guy I heard said.. This is the start of it. That before the winter was out there would "normally" be 2 or 3 more.

And if this is my town... What's it like all over Ireland. We know when a person is killed on the Road,, but there are nearly double deaths to suicide.

Is it not time to build awareness of the issue and to teach boys from an early age to talk about their problems and to have a service that everyone knows about that is available to help.

Or do we go with the existing attitude that ... sure its bound to happen.

Lastly many of the Charities that offer help have Women on the end of the line.. And a BIG thank you to them for their extremely valuable work. Extremely professional and dedicated. But should we not also look to get men involved to help other men in this area.


I know suicide is an issue that effects Men and Women.. But I think Men are more drastic with this nuclear option, While women may attempt it, more of them survive it than men.

Anyway my thoughts on it. I posted in Gentlemen's Club,, to get a male view on this. I hope no women get offended with anything on this post, that was not my intention.

LeeHoffmann

excellent post martin new.

Priori

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

excellent post martin new.

+1

martinnew wrote:

What I have found out..

1. There is no dedicated Mens Charity for Mental or Suicide Issues.
2. 87% of Suicides in Ireland are men.
3. 400+ Men take their lives in the republic every year
4. There is no unified suicide support helpline.

These points definitely bring the issue into stark contrast. Can you tell me where I might read more about the second point above? I've just done a quick search and worked it out at 80% based on figures from this article in the Irish Times from Oct 2, 2012.

I certainly don't mean to nitpick, I just want to read more on this.

martinnew wrote:

We know when a person is killed on the Road,, but there are nearly double deaths to suicide.

I know... that really puts it into perspective.

martinnew

Priori wrote: »

+1



These points definitely bring the issue into stark contrast. Can you tell me where I might read more about the second point above? I've just done a quick search and worked it out at 80% based on figures from this article in the Irish Times from Oct 2, 2012.

I certainly don't mean to nitpick, I just want to read more on this.



I know... that really puts it into perspective.

Hi, I think I googled the figures for 2011 the the Republic. But I stand corrected on the %. The 2010 figures were 80:20 Men/Women.

Here locally the suicides that I have seen over the last number of years were men, one guy I spoke to said he knew personally 40 men who took their life over the past 20 years. As far as I know 2 women took their lives here. But that's just anecdotal, I don't have exact figures.

And the town here is rural Connaght population about 10K. So small ish.

Kimia

Completely agree Martin. It's so sad. I would echo your point about noone talking about it, I was under the impression that the Samaritans were mostly into crisis support but I could be wrong.

Movember have now (from this year) included men's mental health issues to their fundraising efforts. Men's mental health charities will receive half of the funds raised and prostate cancer will receive the other half. I hope Irish men (and women) embrace Movember and support it just as much as the Pink campaign for women.

LeeHoffmann

I know suicide is an issue that effects Men and Women.. But I think Men are more drastic with this nuclear option, While women may attempt it, more of them survive it than men.

I wonder how true this is. I´ve heard it a few times myself. From my own experience, I´ve personally known 2 women who attempted suicide and 2 men who planned their suicide but never went through with it. Both the men planned a fairly violent end - i.e. one that would have been nearly certain to kill them. The two women both attempted suicide multiple times - one of them only used relatively non-violent methods such as overdoses. The other began with overdoses but finally used a more violent method and succeeded. I´ve heard of more women and girls attempting (ie. unsuccessfully) suicide - usually overdoses, and I´ve heard of more men committing suicide - usually hanging. This is all just my experience. I´d be interested to know whether this would be typical. In other words, how much truth is there in the claim that men are more likely to choose violent/certain methods (such as shootings, accidents/crashes, hanging, etc) from the first attempt, whereas women are more likely to choose non-violent methods (such as overdoses) at first before graduating to more violent methods?

martinnew

The reality is One in every 38 male deaths and one in every 143 female deaths in Ireland is by suicide.

I would like to know how many Women V Men attempted Suicide so we could get the complete picture.

Men are more nuclear about this decision, But experts say we should not discuss the how people take their lives on internet forums.

I think we should discuss suicide, but keep well away for the details of how men do it. Its what a women for the Samaritans told me.

Please do not discuss ANY methods here. Just keep it as general as possible. Its bad enough the fact people take their lives.

LeeHoffmann

But experts say we should not discuss the how people take their lives on internet forums.

Why? Because we´ll "give them ideas"?

I don´t want to write a list of suicide methods - just discuss whether men choose more violent methods.

Edit: maybe that woman was referring more to the kind of suicide forums where people discuss the ´best way´ and arrange to meet up in so-called suicide pacts? I don´t see how it helps anyone to just ignore a very pertinent aspect of the issue

Kimia

martinnew wrote: »

But experts say we should not discuss the how people take their lives on internet forums.

I think we should discuss suicide, but keep well away for the details of how men do it. Its what a women for the Samaritans told me.

Please do not discuss ANY methods here. Just keep it as general as possible. Its bad enough the fact people take their lives.

I seriously question this. I think it was very bad advice for someone from the Samaritans to give. Not talking about it openly and freely keeps it cloaked in secrecy and shame and to hell with that.

Talking about suicide isn't going to make someone attempt suicide. Asking someone straight out 'Are you thinking about killing yourself?' and 'Have you ever tried to kill yourself before?' will not make suicidal people actually take the final step. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

Talking about it openly normalizes it. I can see why people wouldn't want to do this for fear of appearing to 'approve' of suicide but that's not what we're doing here. We're normalizing it so that the suicidal people who may be reading this forum don't feel like they're the only people in the world who feel that they are in a hole so deep they can't get out. They are not alone and it is okay to talk about it.

martinnew

Kimia wrote: »

I seriously question this. I think it was very bad advice for someone from the Samaritans to give. Not talking about it openly and freely keeps it cloaked in secrecy and shame and to hell with that.

Talking about suicide isn't going to make someone attempt suicide. Asking someone straight out 'Are you thinking about killing yourself?' and 'Have you ever tried to kill yourself before?' will not make suicidal people actually take the final step. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

Talking about it openly normalizes it. I can see why people wouldn't want to do this for fear of appearing to 'approve' of suicide but that's not what we're doing here. We're normalizing it so that the suicidal people who may be reading this forum don't feel like they're the only people in the world who feel that they are in a hole so deep they can't get out. They are not alone and it is okay to talk about it.

Talk about Suicide Yes.. But not HOW people did it.


http://www.nosp.ie/practical_guide.pdf

Kimia

martinnew wrote: »

Talk about Suicide Yes.. But not HOW people did it.

Doesn't matter. They can google methods. Talking about it will not increase suicidal attempts just the same as not talking about it will decrease attempts. We've seen how well not talking about suicide is working out.

The point is not talking about methods/means still cloaks it in secrecy, like it's this big huge shameful terrible thing that we should never talk about.

LeeHoffmann

The way I see it, if we don´t understand a problem we have little to no chance of dealing with it effectively. Only discussing things in an extremely general sense could limit our understanding and prevent us from gaining insights that could revolutionise the way we deal with suicide. Revolutionise is a strong word but, considering our (society´s) current understanding of and approach to suicide, I can only assume that we have a huge amount to learn.

Talk about Suicide Yes.. But not HOW people did it.

again, why? The link is taking a long time to open

Kimia

martinnew wrote: »

Talk about Suicide Yes.. But not HOW people did it.


http://www.nosp.ie/practical_guide.pdf

From the link you've shared:

However, contrary to popular belief, talking about ‘suicide’ does not increase the risk or ‘plant the idea in someone’s head’. In fact it reduces the risk of suicide by allowing the person to find relief in being able to talk about their problems. Having the chance to express acute worries and concerns with someone who cares often greatly reduces the pain that the person is experiencing. In most situations it leads to a greater sense of hope, encouraging the person to explore ways to move forward and access support.

Silverfish

Presumably because it's better to draw focus away from the 'how' and instead focus on the 'why'.

The 'how' could cause someone who is depressed to relate to a specific act and feel it would be easier, quicker, painless, or whatever reasoning they feel could apply. The surrounding conversation will fade could fade out in relation to the 'how'.

So by drawing focus away from it, they can expand and discuss the 'why'. I don't see a connection between how someone chooses to do it and understanding the problem, the problem is what drove them to do it, and that's the 'why'. They need to talk about that.

martinnew

Kimia wrote: »

Doesn't matter. They can google methods. Talking about it will not increase suicidal attempts just the same as not talking about it will decrease attempts. We've seen how well not talking about suicide is working out.

The point is not talking about methods/means still cloaks it in secrecy, like it's this big huge shameful terrible thing that we should never talk about.

On a learning curve here, You may well be correct.

martinnew

Silverfish wrote: »

Presumably because it's better to draw focus away from the 'how' and instead focus on the 'why'.

The 'how' could cause someone who is depressed to relate to a specific act and feel it would be easier, quicker, painless, or whatever reasoning they feel could apply. The surrounding conversation will fade could fade out in relation to the 'how'.

So by drawing focus away from it, they can expand and discuss the 'why'. I don't see a connection between how someone chooses to do it and understanding the problem, the problem is what drove them to do it, and that's the 'why'. They need to talk about that.

Exactly that was what I understood aswell. Talk about suicide yes,, but not the details of how a person did it. Raise awareness of the why's.

Its sad but Men don't talk about their problems.. And some just let them build until it goes too far.

For me the HOW a man takes his life is irrelevant. (as long as he does not take other people with him) The fact is, he did it and he is gone..


I would love to hear from any men on this forum if they seriously thought about it,but were able to get help and got over it. I think knowing some success stories could help other men look for help.

Kimia

martinnew wrote: »

On a learning curve here, You may well be correct.

I saw the part of the guide where it tells the media not to discuss the intricate details of how someone has killed themselves so I see what you mean about that part.

What I was highlighting was that I believe strongly that nothing should be off limits when discussing suicide. Including the hows. Someone who's very interested in the hows can be a sign that they are having suicidal thoughts and perhaps that's how someone in their circle/family etc can see this and try to help.

I can't really see how discussing ways people die by suicide will prompt someone (who was previously not suicidal) to say 'Oh that looks like that's for me'. I don't think someone who's thinking rationally will decide on a whim based on forum discussions that may possibly discuss how someone died by suicide to just out of the blue kill themselves.

If someone is suicidal, they're suicidal. They're going to google how, they are going to think about the ways they can die. Them happening to notice others talking about it online etc, isn't going to stop that.

What will, is education, support systems and a non-judgemental society where everything is open for discussion.

LeeHoffmann

So by drawing focus away from it, they can expand and discuss the 'why'. I don't see a connection between how someone chooses to do it and understanding the problem, the problem is what drove them to do it, and that's the 'why'. They need to talk about that.

Nobody´s saying not to talk about the why though. Obviously people have a vast range of reasons why. There is no one big reason why though obviously isolation is often going to be a factor.

Focusing on the generals of how - such as: do men choose more violent methods from the very first attempt? do women begin with non-violent methods? - will allow patterns and trends to emerge. Analysing these trends can further our understanding of the problem IMO. Let me jump ahead...if men do tend to choose more violent methods from the get go, and women do tend to begin with non-violent methods and only use violent/certain methods after multiple failed attempts...we need to ask why they tend to take such different approaches? Are non-violent methods more like cries for help than genuine attempts? If so, does this indicate a greater desire to communicate and/or hope that somebody or something could help? Does choosing a violent method from the get go (rather than a non-violent method) thus indicate total lack of belief that anything or anyone could help? Are violent methods chosen more because they are more certain to succeed or because of a greater sense of self-destruction? Are non-violent methods chosen because they seem less painful/more peaceful? Do non-violent methods communicate the same level of desperation as violent methods? If people who use non-violent methods are just as desperate and miserable as people who choose violent methods, should we focus on all suicide attempts rather than only ´successful´ suicides?

I think trying to find answers to these kinds of questions can help us to better understand and counter suicide

LeeHoffmann

I would love to hear from any men on this forum if they seriously thought about it,but were able to get help and got over it. I think knowing some success stories could help other men look for help.

I´m not a man so I´m not in your category, but I know a guy who was considering suicide. He was serious enough about it that he had decided upon the means and the date. We weren´t particularly close at the time but we had been previously. I don´t really know how it happened but we were talking and he opened up and told me about his plan. He let me tell somebody closer to him that he was going through a tough time and needed help. I think they talked about it though I don´t know the ins and outs. In any case, that person was there for him and I guess helped him through.
That was years ago. I still know the guy. He has a good job, he´s in a serious relationship, lots of friends, some hobbies. He seems happy and fulfilled.

At the end of the day, he chose to talk to somebody. He didn´t say much. He just let somebody know that he was at the end of his tether.

Piliger

Kimia wrote: »

If someone is suicidal, they're suicidal. They're going to google how, they are going to think about the ways they can die. Them happening to notice others talking about it online etc, isn't going to stop that.

What will, is education, support systems and a non-judgemental society where everything is open for discussion.

It is a myth to believe that education and 'talking about it' will stop suicides. It will reduce them for sure. But the causes of the circumstances that lead of many suicides cannot simply be wiped away by talking or even by education. Bad things happen to people and sometimes they are just too much to handle.

Also this attempt to control the 'how' is a very selfish and damaging one. It results in people committing suicide in painful and brutal ways where they suffer a lot more than they would had they known about less painful and brutal ways.

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

He has a good job, he´s in a serious relationship, lots of friends, some hobbies. He seems happy and fulfilled.

At the end of the day, he chose to talk to somebody. He didn´t say much. He just let somebody know that he was at the end of his tether.

No offence intended but I think it is a stretch to suggest that talking about it was the solution. Happily he found some kind of solution and over came his desire, for now. I hope that continues, obviously.

Piliger

martinnew wrote: »

The reality is One in every 38 male deaths and one in every 143 female deaths in Ireland is by suicide.

I would like to know how many Women V Men attempted Suicide so we could get the complete picture.

Men are more nuclear about this decision, But experts say we should not discuss the how people take their lives on internet forums.

I think we should discuss suicide, but keep well away for the details of how men do it. Its what a women for the Samaritans told me.

Please do not discuss ANY methods here. Just keep it as general as possible. Its bad enough the fact people take their lives.

This is utter nonsense.

Samaritans do a good job but they are not experts, I simply do not accept that.

Condemning people to ignorance about how to take their own life only results in people being driven to chose even more brutal, painful and awful methods that cause them to suffer even more. I find this a deeply selfish and self indulgent view.

LeeHoffmann

It is a myth to believe that education and 'talking about it' will stop suicides. It will reduce them for sure. But the causes of the circumstances that lead of many suicides cannot simply be wiped away by talking or even by education. Bad things happen to people and sometimes they are just too much to handle.

I agree, but I think she meant reduce rather than completely get rid of the problem.

I think it is a stretch to suggest that talking about it was the solution.

:eek: How very presumptuous of you given that you don´t know him. If he hadn´t talked about it he would very likely have continued suffering and not received any help. Telling somebody what was going on gave somebody the chance to help him. The solution to his problems at that time was getting support for a difficult situation and seeing that somebody really cared about him. Somebody took the time and made the effort. Telling somebody how he felt was what enabled him to receive the support he needed. So yes talking helped.

Sometimes just knowing that somebody really cares gives a suicidal person enough strength to keep going. I know very well that sometimes that´s not enough. But let´s not dismiss the former just because it doesn´t account for every single case

Piliger

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

I agree, but I think she meant reduce rather than completely get rid of the problem.

Stop was the word used.

:eek: How very presumptuous of you ...

Errrr no. I was simply making an observation based solely on what you wrote yourself. Relax.

Pawwed Rig

I would think that if someone was willing to talk about their plans to commit suicide it is a cry for help rather than a definite plan. He is allowing you in to be aware of the issue which you are of course going to take action on.
Generally I would say a failed attempt that had little liklihood of suceeding is also a cry for help which unfortunatle often gets dismissed as a drama.
Many issues with suicide are in that is is performed by people who may not have a close family or network of friends they can draw on. This very isolation can make a bad situation worse and as I said previously in the thread it is not always the most likeable person that will commit suicide but may be the guy who keeps to himself, is not that well liked, is left on his own for his lunch hour etc etc.

I don't buy the point about discussing methods. There are infinite different ways that the act could be done and often the person will analyse many different ways before actually performing one.

LeeHoffmann

Stop was the word used.

ok I read that as what might stop an individual from committing suicide, not what will completely rid the world of suicide.

Errrr no. I was simply making an observation based solely on what you wrote yourself. Relax.

Your observation didn´t come from what I said. How did you derive the conclusion that ´talking wasn´t the solution´ from what I said?

LeeHoffmann

I don't buy the point about discussing methods.

I don´t know what you mean. Can you explain?

Pawwed Rig

I don't think it makes a difference if we discuss different methods of suicide or not as a poster claimed earlier.