BJJ for self defence

EnjoyChoke

A friend of mine, providing some useful fieldwork, into the fact that the choke (which is best applied in the art of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) is the single most effective technique for incapacitating someone (with the added bonus of no injury to either party)

http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/2012/09/20/bank-robbery-thwarted-by-bystander-and-banker?utm_source=addThis&utm_medium=addthis_button_facebook&utm_campaign=Convicted+killer+arrested+in+bank+robbery+%7C+Local+%7C+News+%7C+St.+Catharines+Standard#.UFwUweoVM19.facebook

Dermighty

Working as a bouncer I found that controlling someones head gives you almost complete control of their body. Though it's frowned upon by onlookers.

Choking someone is fine as long as it's not some form of choke that attacks the adams apple area. A blood or air choke is one thing, but a ten finger guillotine can really hurt someone :P

arybvtcw0eolkf

I use a RNC and collar chokes all the time (bouncer too), they look passive and non-threatening compared to punching or kicking someone (to the onlooker/witness).

But when the fur flies and the digs are thrown they're very hard to apply, against multiple opponents/attackers they become impossible and dangerous to use IMO.

Craptacular

Julissa Fat Crowbar wrote: »

against multiple opponents/attackers they become impossible and dangerous to use IMO.

Moment of serendipity. Just as I was reading this Star Trek was on in the background and Captain Picard was relating a tale from his younger days:

Captain Jean-Luc Picard wrote:

I had this one Nausicaan down in this, uh... somewhat devious joint lock, when, uh, unbeknownst to me, one of his chums drew his weapon and... impaled me through the back. Curious sensation, actually...

EnjoyChoke

Craptacular wrote: »

Julissa Fat Crowbar wrote: »

against multiple opponents/attackers they become impossible and dangerous to use IMO.

Moment of serendipity. Just as I was reading this Star Trek was on in the background and Captain Picard was relating a tale from his younger days:

Captain Jean-Luc Picard wrote:

I had this one Nausicaan down in this, uh... somewhat devious joint lock, when, uh, unbeknownst to me, one of his chums drew his weapon and... impaled me through the back. Curious sensation, actually...

Thanks for that, I'll keep it in mind the next time I fight a Klingon.

Craptacular

Back on topic then, when I did Wing Chun we worked on controlling the person by controlling the head in a clinch and using that control to use the person as a shield in the event of his mates getting involved.

EnjoyChoke

Craptacular wrote: »

Back on topic then, when I did Wing Chun we worked on controlling the person by controlling the head in a clinch and using that control to use the person as a shield in the event of his mates getting involved.

Not really on topic either TBH. How does that relate to the use of the choke as a self defence tool?

Craptacular

One post on chokes, followed by one on chokes and controlling the head and then one about the dangers of doing it around multiple attackers before I commented. It seemed pretty on topic to me.

To go right back on topic then, you mention the "added bonus of no injury to either party". Wasn't a fella choked to death by a bouncer in Cork a few years back? Google throws up more examples that clearly illustrate putting a choke on someone is far from risk free.

Stephen_King

Only thing I'd be worried with when people are using chokes is leaving it on too long and accidentally causing serious brain damage\death-not a likely mistake if you've been training awhile, but I'd think one even good white belts could make in a street scrap or with a bit of gargle in them. I’m in two minds which would be better for self-defence, a RNC or a wrestling front headlock\guillotine.

da-bres

Stephen_King wrote: »

Only thing I'd be worried with when people are using chokes is leaving it on too long and accidentally causing serious brain damage\death-not a likely mistake if you've been training awhile, but I'd think one even good white belts could make in a street scrap or with a bit of gargle in them. I’m in two minds which would be better for self-defence, a RNC or a wrestling front headlock\guillotine.

ze back, always ze back...!

cowzerp

Craptacular wrote: »

To go right back on topic then, you mention the "added bonus of no injury to either party". Wasn't a fella choked to death by a bouncer in Cork a few years back? Google throws up more examples that clearly illustrate putting a choke on someone is far from risk free.

I'm pretty sure that was a choke with a bar or something, basically crushing the wind pipe and not a choke such as seen in BJJ, Judo and MMA which would not kill someone unless you actually wanted too.

Dyr

cowzerp wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that was a choke with a bar or something, basically crushing the wind pipe and not a choke such as seen in BJJ, Judo and MMA which would not kill someone unless you actually wanted too.

All chokes rely on compression of the windpipe though, with the risks associated with that

slammer187

Bambi wrote: »

All chokes rely on compression of the windpipe though, with the risks associated with that

Chokes that rely on blocking your carotid arteries don't attack the wind pipe, for example a reverse ezekiel choke!

Damo W

slammer187 wrote: »

Chokes that rely on blocking your carotid arteries don't attack the wind pipe

Is that not a strangle then and not a choke (airway v's bloodflow)??

OLDMAN1

cowzerp wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that was a choke with a bar or something, basically crushing the wind pipe and not a choke such as seen in BJJ, Judo and MMA which would not kill someone unless you actually wanted too.

No it was a RNC, no bar or anything like that

Dyr

slammer187 wrote: »

Chokes that rely on blocking your carotid arteries don't attack the wind pipe, for example a reverse ezekiel choke!

Thats because they're strangles, not chokes.

Pedantic but important difference.

yomchi

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

No it was a RNC, no bar or anything like that

The bouncer fell backwards while choking the guy when he fell the lads body weight added significantly to the choke. I think the result was the choke was on for too long.

SaoriseBiker

Craptacular wrote: »

One post on chokes, followed by one on chokes and controlling the head and then one about the dangers of doing it around multiple attackers before I commented. It seemed pretty on topic to me.

To go right back on topic then, you mention the "added bonus of no injury to either party". Wasn't a fella choked to death by a bouncer in Cork a few years back? Google throws up more examples that clearly illustrate putting a choke on someone is far from risk free.

Seen it on TV, it was actually a number of bouncers who tackled the fella, initially a good old fashioned grab around the neck from behind, possibly the weight of the other bouncers may have finished him.

( BTW, the dead fella was a scummer, clearly as seen on the clip, the bouncer in a civil fashion told him he couldn't come in, dress code etc. Yer man falseley kept nodding in agreement and took a few steps away, bouncer took his attanetion off him and started dealing with another person and scummer comes up from behind and throws a punch him and tries to leg it only for the injured bouncer to grab him and the others pile in like a rughy maul )

slammer187

Bambi wrote: »

Thats because they're strangles, not chokes.

Pedantic but important difference.

The term strangle is only used to refer to blood chokes in Judo usually, technically choke and strangle are interchangeable terms
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/strangle

SaoriseBiker

Craptacular wrote: »

Back on topic then, when I did Wing Chun we worked on controlling the person by controlling the head in a clinch and using that control to use the person as a shield in the event of his mates getting involved.

Not having a go at you mate but

(1) By "controlling the head in a clinch " is that just the good old fashioned schoolboy clinch or some kind of BJJ/Judo hold ?

(2) Again with respect, but sounds a bit like the sort of sh!te you hear in Krav Maga. When your attention and arms are preoccupied with holding a fella whose doing his best to pull away from you, I wouldn't be too hopeful of effectively swinging him around stopping Johno and Anto from landing punches etc.



BTW, I'm not a door man, at 5' 6" I guess I'm on the small side ( though I have used BJJ as a security man in St James's A & E waiting room once or twice in the past though, rear naked choke and kimura )

EnjoyChoke

Bambi wrote: »

slammer187 wrote: »

Chokes that rely on blocking your carotid arteries don't attack the wind pipe, for example a reverse ezekiel choke!

Thats because they're strangles, not chokes.

Pedantic but important difference.

They're blood chokes, most of the main BJJ chokes are. It's useful to use the same terminology and "choke" is the almost universal term for these.

SaoriseBiker

Interestingly, does has anyone ever used the Guillotine choke ? Handy one I would have thought when the d!ckhead is in your face and just wouldn't f**k off ?

Dyr

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

They're blood chokes, most of the main BJJ chokes are. It's useful to use the same terminology and "choke" is the almost universal term for these.

Why is it useful to use the same (inaccurate) terminology when there's an important distinction to be made between the two methods? Especially in the context of cases like the one previously mentioned.

Thus, george w bush choked on a pretzel rather than being strangled by one

EnjoyChoke

Bambi wrote: »

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

They're blood chokes, most of the main BJJ chokes are. It's useful to use the same terminology and "choke" is the almost universal term for these.

Why is it useful to use the same (inaccurate) terminology when there's an important distinction to be made between the two methods? Especially in the context of cases like the one previously mentioned.

Thus, george w bush choked on a pretzel rather than being strangled by one

Rear Naked Choke, Guillotine Choke, Triangle Choke, North South Choke... All blood chokes. If you don't know what these are and how they're applied you can't really add to this thread. If you do and are just arguing about terminology you not contributing either.

Clive

Damo W wrote: »

Is that not a strangle then and not a choke (airway v's bloodflow)??

I know that in judo they differentiate between chokes and strangles, but in BJJ they're all referred to as chokes. It's not inaccurate, that's just BJJ terminology. Understanding the mechanics is far more important than a naming scheme. Some martial arts refer to a strangle meaning a blood choke, in the common parlance it means squeezing the windpipe.

RainMaker

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Rear Naked Choke, Guillotine Choke, Triangle Choke, North South Choke... All blood chokes. If you don't know what these are and how they're applied you can't really add to this thread. If you do and are just arguing about terminology you not contributing either.

Guillotine can be either a blood choke or an air choke depending on how it's applied - just to confuse matters like

Dyr

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Rear Naked Choke, Guillotine Choke, Triangle Choke, North South Choke... All blood chokes. If you don't know what these are and how they're applied you can't really add to this thread. If you do and are just arguing about terminology you not contributing either.

You can call them shime waza, blood chokes or anything else, the terminology doesn't matter but the difference between both does when it comes to not killing people, as the fella in cork found out. So if you're lumping both under one term it's not just being pedantic to point out that's wrong.

EnjoyChoke

Bambi wrote: »

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Rear Naked Choke, Guillotine Choke, Triangle Choke, North South Choke... All blood chokes. If you don't know what these are and how they're applied you can't really add to this thread. If you do and are just arguing about terminology you not contributing either.

You can call them shime waza, blood chokes or anything else, the terminology doesn't matter but the difference between both does when it comes to not killing people, as the fella in cork found out. So if you're lumping both under one term it's not just being pedantic to point out that's wrong.

Any chance at all you could post on topic?

Dyr

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Any chance at all you could post on topic?

Funny, that's the second time you've made your post about me rather than the topic, if you have problem with a post take it a to a forum mod. Simple really

SaoriseBiker

Bambi wrote: »

You can call them shime waza, blood chokes or anything else, the terminology doesn't matter but the difference between both does when it comes to not killing people, as the fella in cork found out. So if you're lumping both under one term it's not just being pedantic to point out that's wrong.

Terminlology does matter, a leg lock and a guillotine choke for example are very different two techniques. And no point in calling them say, a guillotine lock and a leg choke as no one will know what specific technique your on about.

EnjoyChoke

Bambi wrote: »

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Any chance at all you could post on topic?

Funny, that's the second time you've made your post about me rather than the topic, if you have problem with a post take it a to a forum mod. Simple really

Do you know what those chokes are, how to apply them and can you evaluate their practicality in a self defence situation? Simple really.

Dyr

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Do you know what those chokes are, how to apply them and can you evaluate their practicality in a self defence situation? Simple really.

You looking for a pissing contest still? Ah fair enough. What were you training back in the 90's? Chokes and strangles? I was. Kata gatame and sankaku were the ones I got mostly, that was back then of course. Some people catch up but some people move on. :P

As to evaluating practicality, I'd defer to Makikomi on the practicality of choking people in a self defence situation, I've never had to. Y'see, I know where experience ends and making assumptions starts. How about yourself? Lots of experience of putting people to sleep in self defence situations?

Richy06

I reckon he's got enough experience in utilising the techniques against trained, fully resisting opponents to enable him to evaluate their practicality in a self defence situation against untrained assailants, yes.

Craptacular

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Craptacular wrote: »

Back on topic then, when I did Wing Chun we worked on controlling the person by controlling the head in a clinch and using that control to use the person as a shield in the event of his mates getting involved.

Not having a go at you mate but

(1) By "controlling the head in a clinch " is that just the good old fashioned schoolboy clinch or some kind of BJJ/Judo hold ?

I'm talking about a clinch as you'd see in Muay Thai.

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

(2) Again with respect, but sounds a bit like the sort of sh!te you hear in Krav Maga. When your attention and arms are preoccupied with holding a fella whose doing his best to pull away from you, I wouldn't be too hopeful of effectively swinging him around stopping Johno and Anto from landing punches etc.

I know nothing about KM but you'd have to experience it to see how easy it is. Try it with a mate. I'm not saying you can swing them like a pillow to fight their mates off but you can certainly move them between you and them (unless they are coming from different directions of course) to shield you from attack.

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

BTW, I'm not a door man, at 5' 6" I guess I'm on the small side ( though I have used BJJ as a security man in St James's A & E waiting room once or twice in the past though, rear naked choke and kimura )

As it happens I was a doorman but that makes no difference to whether this works or not.

OLDMAN1

Richy06 wrote: »

I reckon he's got enough experience in utilising the techniques against trained, fully resisting opponents to enable him to evaluate their practicality in a self defence situation against untrained assailants, yes.

I don't think it's the same...

EnjoyChoke

Bambi wrote: »

Lots of experience of putting people to sleep in self defence situations?

Yea, it's great craic.

Richy06

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

I don't think it's the same...

You're right. If it was an untrained assailant, he'd have a much easier time.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Damo W wrote: »

Is that not a strangle then and not a choke (airway v's bloodflow)??

Yes there is a difference between strangles and chokes but most people use 'chokes' to cover both.

Regarding the case of the bouncer killing the lad in cork, it was a head lock and crush injury.

arybvtcw0eolkf

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Yea, it's great craic.

I know your just taking the piss, but its actually not great craic.

I've choked out a few of people, I'm not bragging but I've been on the doors a long long time.. However, its not any kind of craic.

I've never choked someone out and not worried for a moment that I held the choke too long and hope they wake up ok.

I keep saying it, the club/dojo can not come close to replicating the violence of an altercation on the street, not in a million years and no matter how much mat time you have when it goes off for real and you get a rush of sh*t to the head thats when the craic ends.

Pat Mustard

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

A friend of mine, providing some useful fieldwork, into the fact that the choke (which is best applied in the art of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) is the single most effective technique for incapacitating someone (with the added bonus of no injury to either party)

http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/2012/09/20/bank-robbery-thwarted-by-bystander-and-banker?utm_source=addThis&utm_medium=addthis_button_facebook&utm_campaign=Convicted+killer+arrested+in+bank+robbery+%7C+Local+%7C+News+%7C+St.+Catharines+Standard#.UFwUweoVM19.facebook

Two questions.

1. With most chokes/strangles, your opponent's two hands are usually free and he could possibly injure you while you attempt to choke/strangle him. Given a choice, wouldn't an armlock offer more control over the opponent and be a safer option for you in a self defence situation, until the police arrive?

2. Describe favourite choke, effectiveness, speed, pros and cons.

arybvtcw0eolkf

The Mustard wrote: »

Two questions.

1. With most chokes/strangles, your opponent's two hands are usually free and he could possibly injure you while you attempt to choke/strangle him. Given a choice, wouldn't an armlock offer more control over the opponent and be a safer option for you in a self defence situation, until the police arrive?

If I can just answer that one from my own experience.

Once the choke/strange goes on the biggest danger you face is a head butt, in the RNC I keep my own head to one side to avoid it but I have been caught in the past.

Regarding free arms, again once the choke goes on the person has literally seconds before they pass out, but this is usually taken up with panic and they'll try use both hands to free your grip.

Personally speaking, the times I haven't got it on quick is usually in winter when I'm wearing heavier clothing but a quick switch to a collar choke works a treat in most cases.

Tbh over 90% of the times you're just controlling an assailant until help arrives but its only a tiny bit more presure until the choke is complete.

I hate typing this stuff up because to a casual reader it would seem bouncers with any grappling experience are just waiting to strangle people when in fact 99.99% of the time spent on a door is having the craic with customers and trying to keep warm!.

Pat Mustard

Julissa Fat Crowbar wrote: »

If I can just answer that one from my own experience.

Once the choke/strange goes on the biggest danger you face is a head butt, in the RNC I keep my own head to one side to avoid it but I have been caught in the past.

Regarding free arms, again once the choke goes on the person has literally seconds before they pass out, but this is usually taken up with panic and they'll try use both hands to free your grip.

Personally speaking, the times I haven't got it on quick is usually in winter when I'm wearing heavier clothing but a quick switch to a collar choke works a treat in most cases.

Tbh over 90% of the times you're just controlling an assailant until help arrives but its only a tiny bit more presure until the choke is complete.

I hate typing this stuff up because to a casual reader it would seem bouncers with any grappling experience are just waiting to strangle people when in fact 99.99% of the time spent on a door is having the craic with customers and trying to keep warm!.

Good answer.

You make a fair point about it causing panic.

I see your point about people's perceptions. I would also guess that a properly executed choke or strangle would horrify most onlookers!

You didn't go for my favourite choke question, but I'm gonna guess that it's the ones you've mentioned; RNC and collar choke.

From years ago, back in my Judo days, my favourite choke was a thrust choke - tsukkomi jime. I used to find it fast, effective, hard for others to anticipate. It works fine standing up as well as on the ground. Similar to what you said, this choke could cause panic, but realistically much less so in the controlled environment of sparring/randori. The only problem is that it won't work unless the other guy has a shirt or coat to grab, in which case you need to look at a different choke.

In case anyone is interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AShK2luiv7w
http://www.bms-judo.org/Photos/Techniques_Shime/album/slides/Tsukkomi%20jime.html

SorGan

so...chokes:check.

.anything else in bjj noteworthy for SD?

cowzerp

SorGan wrote: »

so...chokes:check.

.anything else in bjj noteworthy for SD?

Controlling an opponent position wise-1 on 1 it's quite easy to incapacitate an attacker by just taking them down and pinning them, if your nastier you could GNP them or many other options.

arybvtcw0eolkf

cowzerp wrote: »

Controlling an opponent position wise-1 on 1 it's quite easy to incapacitate an attacker by just taking them down and pinning them, if your nastier you could GNP them or many other options.

GNP would be my preferred option if things went to the ground.

What a lot of BJJ'ers forget or don't appreciate is a lot of the stuff they do on the ground are also applicable standing too... I'm thinking in particular the kimura (and its variants) and 'head & arm' chokes.. Against an untrained opponent there is no need to go to the ground with a lot of Judo/BJJ sub's.

p to the e

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Terminlology does matter, a leg lock and a guillotine choke for example are very different two techniques. And no point in calling them say, a guillotine lock and a leg choke as no one will know what specific technique your on about.

A leg choke!?

EnjoyChoke

Julissa Fat Crowbar wrote: »

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Yea, it's great craic.

I know your just taking the piss, but its actually not great craic.

I've choked out a few of people, I'm not bragging but I've been on the doors a long long time.. However, its not any kind of craic.

I've never choked someone out and not worried for a moment that I held the choke too long and hope they wake up ok.

I keep saying it, the club/dojo can not come close to replicating the violence of an altercation on the street, not in a million years and no matter how much mat time you have when it goes off for real and you get a rush of sh*t to the head thats when the craic ends.

Yep taking the piss, a street altercation is no craic, no craic at all.

EnjoyChoke

The Mustard wrote: »

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

A friend of mine, providing some useful fieldwork, into the fact that the choke (which is best applied in the art of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) is the single most effective technique for incapacitating someone (with the added bonus of no injury to either party)

http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/2012/09/20/bank-robbery-thwarted-by-bystander-and-banker?utm_source=addThis&utm_medium=addthis_button_facebook&utm_campaign=Convicted+killer+arrested+in+bank+robbery+%7C+Local+%7C+News+%7C+St.+Catharines+Standard#.UFwUweoVM19.facebook

Two questions.

1. With most chokes/strangles, your opponent's two hands are usually free and he could possibly injure you while you attempt to choke/strangle him. Given a choice, wouldn't an armlock offer more control over the opponent and be a safer option for you in a self defence situation, until the police arrive?

2. Describe favourite choke, effectiveness, speed, pros and cons.

Armlocks not so good unless you're prepared to break something, even then no guarantee you finish the altercation. RNC leaves you behind your opponent and well covered from strikes, gullotine although executed from the front doesn't leave you exposed. In either case they'll be out quite quickly.

EnjoyChoke

Julissa Fat Crowbar wrote: »

What a lot of BJJ'ers forget or don't appreciate is a lot of the stuff they do on the ground are also applicable standing too... I'm thinking in particular the kimura (and its variants) and 'head & arm' chokes.. Against an untrained opponent there is no need to go to the ground with a lot of Judo/BJJ sub's.

Us "BJJ'ers" are a simple bunch...

SDTimeout

I may as well tell this story... I bumped into Joey on the street the other day and told him.

The place I work in was being robbed about a week and a half ago. I say robbed but as some of you know tills etc are taken out so these lads were taking as much drink as then can, 70cl and 1ltr's etc. Two of them. I walked out of cleaning the toilets ( glamorous ) and saw them crawling out from under the bar. The two guys were foreign and around 84/88KG each. Then got startled and one slipped breaking a few of his bottles and they tried to run past me. I grabbed one and the other slipped on the stairs breaking all his bottles. The other pulled me back by the back of my shirt and cut my neck open. I might as well include a photo.

Naturally I let go of his friend and they ran down the stairs, just as someone was coming up the stairs. They split up one went right and out in to the alley only to run into another part of the night club. The guy who cut me went left and into a dead end. I got a grab of the back of his collar and he kept running, as he went to turn I went with his momentum and was up on his back like a piggy back. I had my right hand gripping his left collar. I had two hooks in and he tried to buck me forward, those who do BJJ might understand me here we both went forward and rolled onto our sides with me hitting the ground first. He still had a bottle of Jack Daniels in his right hand so my right foot trapped his arm and my left foot kicked it out of his hand. He started to tell me he was going to get me in the street and calling me a mother f*cker etc. So I choked him unconscious. I knew right away when he was out and I let up, but then changed to a collar grip so I knew he would be uncomfortable.

Police came, arrested etc etc. Told they would ring me next week for a statement as the garda was off on holidays for the weekend. No phone call yet but I don't want to do anything about it.

I love JiuJitsu and it's helped me a few times like that in work, just not as impressively as it did most recently.

Dka e80

SDTimeout wrote: »

I may as well tell this story... I bumped into Joey on the street the other day and told him.

The place I work in was being robbed about a week and a half ago. I say robbed but as some of you know tills etc are taken out so these lads were taking as much drink as then can, 70cl and 1ltr's etc. Two of them. I walked out of cleaning the toilets ( glamorous ) and saw them crawling out from under the bar. The two guys were foreign and around 84/88KG each. Then got startled and one slipped breaking a few of his bottles and they tried to run past me. I grabbed one and the other slipped on the stairs breaking all his bottles. The other pulled me back by the back of my shirt and cut my neck open. I might as well include a photo.

Naturally I let go of his friend and they ran down the stairs, just as someone was coming up the stairs. They split up one went right and out in to the alley only to run into another part of the night club. The guy who cut me went left and into a dead end. I got a grab of the back of his collar and he kept running, as he went to turn I went with his momentum and was up on his back like a piggy back. I had my right hand gripping his left collar. I had two hooks in and he tried to buck me forward, those who do BJJ might understand me here we both went forward and rolled onto our sides with me hitting the ground first. He still had a bottle of Jack Daniels in his right hand so my right foot trapped his arm and my left foot kicked it out of his hand. He started to tell me he was going to get me in the street and calling me a mother f*cker etc. So I choked him unconscious. I knew right away when he was out and I let up, but then changed to a collar grip so I knew he would be uncomfortable.

Police came, arrested etc etc. Told they would ring me next week for a statement as the garda was off on holidays for the weekend. No phone call yet but I don't want to do anything about it.

I love JiuJitsu and it's helped me a few times like that in work, just not as impressively as it did most recently.

I love juijitsu aswell but I don't go around looking for opportunities to use it, why would you tackle 2 lads because they where robbing someone else's drink, not bashin but that could hav ended a lot differently