Corrupted zoning of land ? . .

Drumpot

I know there are plenty across the country who have had to put up with the same (or similar) problems with the negative equity house they purchased in the boom, but I am fed up with the government igoring their responsibility to homeowners who have in essence been screwed by the state. .

Whether it be negligence or corruption, I find it hard for anybody to justify the zoning of my estate for building. Without going into technical details here are some basic hints that even the dumbest engineer in the world would of sensed alarm bells when considering whether or not to zone our estate:

• The field that was used was a marsh nicknamed locally "frog marsh"
• There is a small stream running through the middle of it that regularly flooded when it was just a field
• When the first part of my estate was completed, the 2nd part (where my hosue is built 4 years later), regularly flooded badly.
• There were concerns raised about the Bettystown Court hotel and Tescos in Bettystown being built because it would create even less area for waters to run off. In essence this only compounded the problems that exist in our estate.
• We were told that a new drainage system being built upstream would fix the problem, but it has done nothing to change it. Once there is a high tide they have to close this drainage off for fear of the tide coming back up!
• We were told 1st year it was a 50 year storm, the next year that it was a 100 year storm . . Since then we just get a shrug of the shoulders .

I am sure there are people with worse stories (I am lucky in that my house is slightly raised in my estate so we havent been flooded yet), but this is simply criminal.

I have spent most of the day helping residents sandbag their houses. Worked with neighbours to make sure older residents (and pregnant woman) were ok and not too shook. One of our residents has a fire engine (dont ask) which is being run on fuel we all chipped in to service for the day .

On one hand I am glad we live in a superb community, but on the other I am disgusted that we are being left to fend on our own in an estate that should of never been zoned for houses . .

http://www.tv3.ie/news.php?request=&tv3_preview=&video=53596

mikom

I thought the household charge was the solution to all this, what with all the services it was supposed to deliver............

Valetta

It might sound harsh, but if you were aware of any of the above negative points about the site why did you buy?

Also, have you any evidence that the zoning was corrupt? If not your thread title is very misleading.

Ave Sodalis

mikom wrote: »

I thought the household charge was the solution to all this, what with all the services it was supposed to deliver............

Oh yeah, kinda like road tax! It does a great job improving the state of the roads! Not a pothole or bad bend to be seen in the country and the road surfaces are just brilliant everywhere!


Oh wait...

Slurryface

Another "I did something dumb and someone else should take responsibility thread!

Chuck Stone

Is that Marsh Villas on Flood Plain Road?

How did you get caught out?

Slurryface

sup_dude wrote: »

Oh yeah, kinda like road tax! It does a great job improving the state of the roads! Not a pothole or bad bend to be seen in the country and the road surfaces are just brilliant everywhere!


Oh wait...

Whats "Road Tax" any link to it?
Is it anything like Motor Tax which is an annual tax on the ownership and use in a public place of mechanically propelled vehicles?

Dyr

Valetta wrote: »

It might sound harsh, but if you were aware of any of the above negative points about the site why did you buy?

Also, have you any evidence that the zoning was corrupt? If not your thread title is very misleading.

Come on, you had to get on the ladder, especially with all that floodingi :pac:

girl in the striped socks

If you knew all that why did you buy a house there?
The fact that the field was previously called froggy marsh would have me running tbh.

Boombastic

You knew all this and yet you bought

mikom

Slurryface wrote: »

Whats "Road Tax" any link to it?
Is it anything like Motor Tax which is an annual tax on the ownership and use in a public place of mechanically propelled vehicles?

Hello again banned user alastair.

alastair wrote: »

We don't have a road tax - we've a motor tax - which goes into general taxation revenues.

Guy:Incognito

sup_dude wrote: »

Oh yeah, kinda like road tax! It does a great job improving the state of the roads! Not a pothole or bad bend to be seen in the country and the road surfaces are just brilliant everywhere!


Oh wait...

Oh wait is right. We have Motor Tax and its not ringfenced for roads and they dont say it is.


EDIT, Dammit Slurryface.

the_syco

Slurryface wrote: »

Another "I did something dumb and someone else should take responsibility thread!

Sounds more like a "I have found out why the estate floods, and want someone to fix the flooding as they promised to do so but never have" thread.

OP; ring the local TD, and keep annoying them until they fix it!

Red21

Drumpot wrote: »

I
Without going into technical details here are some basic hints that even the dumbest engineer in the world would of sensed alarm bells when considering whether or not to zone our estate:

You can be sure the so called dumb engineer got paid for his/her days work and probably then headed home to their mansion built on a hill side, leaving you and your neighbours to fight it out over who got to live in the marsh.

Slurryface

mikom wrote: »

Hello again banned user alastair.

Post reported, I am not Alistair nor I have ever been registered as Alaister

Guy:Incognito

the_syco wrote: »

Sounds more like a "I have found out why the estate floods, and want someone to fix the flooding as they promised to do so but never have" thread.

From the sounds of the OP they knew plenty about the site before it was built on.

mikom

Slurryface wrote: »

Post reported, I am not Alistair nor I have ever been registered as Alaister

G'lad.

Dr. Greenthumb

Why would you even create this thread? You knew the field was a bog, that it regularly flooded, that it flooded particularly badly in the phase 2 area after phase 1 was built, and then you buy a phase 2 house.

After stating all that and making it quite clear that you're own stupidity has led you into this situation, you try and blame someone else for your position!

Sometimes i wonder if we would be doing a service to the world if we just sunk Ireland altogether.

Drumpot

Valetta wrote: »

It might sound harsh, but if you were aware of any of the above negative points about the site why did you buy?

Also, have you any evidence that the zoning was corrupt? If not your thread title is very misleading.

http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/features/heard-the-one-about-building-houses-in-a-marsh-its-no-joke-243217.html

Firstly, I never lived in Bettystown and was unaware of the history of the land .

Secondly, you dont have to be einstein to realise that building on a flood plain is not a good idea..

Thirdly, if you go against advice not to build on land by engineers (people educated in the field) for no logical reason other then that it will benefit youin some way, its corrupt . Corrupted principles at best , corrupted actions would be costly to prove (I checked) . .

Fourthly, I bought a house that was built in an estate that was cleared by the county councel. While its naive in hindsight, its not unreasonable to expect your government to zone land appropriatley.

Lastly, the fact that some people think the most important part of my thread is not at all to do with the zoning of land says it all about why this country is so screwed . .

MaxSteele

I'd love to know from the experts on landscape and civil engineering here, if they would have even had one iota that the estate they were scoping houses on would be built atop or near a marsh or prone to flooding ?

Hootanany

Ok I'll bite what's the Fire Engine your neighbour has for.

Fr_Dougal

Drumpot wrote: »

I know there are plenty across the country who have had to put up with the same (or similar) problems with the negative equity house they purchased in the boom, but I am fed up with the government igoring their responsibility to homeowners who have in essence been screwed by the state. .

Whether it be negligence or corruption, I find it hard for anybody to justify the zoning of my estate for building. Without going into technical details here are some basic hints that even the dumbest engineer in the world would of sensed alarm bells when considering whether or not to zone our estate:

• The field that was used was a marsh nicknamed locally "frog marsh"
• There is a small stream running through the middle of it that regularly flooded when it was just a field
• When the first part of my estate was completed, the 2nd part (where my hosue is built 4 years later), regularly flooded badly.
• There were concerns raised about the Bettystown Court hotel and Tescos in Bettystown being built because it would create even less area for waters to run off. In essence this only compounded the problems that exist in our estate.
• We were told that a new drainage system being built upstream would fix the problem, but it has done nothing to change it. Once there is a high tide they have to close this drainage off for fear of the tide coming back up!
• We were told 1st year it was a 50 year storm, the next year that it was a 100 year storm . . Since then we just get a shrug of the shoulders .

I am sure there are people with worse stories (I am lucky in that my house is slightly raised in my estate so we havent been flooded yet), but this is simply criminal.

I have spent most of the day helping residents sandbag their houses. Worked with neighbours to make sure older residents (and pregnant woman) were ok and not too shook. One of our residents has a fire engine (dont ask) which is being run on fuel we all chipped in to service for the day .

On one hand I am glad we live in a superb community, but on the other I am disgusted that we are being left to fend on our own in an estate that should of never been zoned for houses . .

http://www.tv3.ie/news.php?request=&tv3_preview=&video=53596

Thinly veiled "I own my own house" thread.

mickgotsick

Hootanany wrote: »

Ok I'll bite what's the Fire Engine your neighbour has for.

It's for putting out floods with eh...

Drumpot

Hootanany wrote: »

Ok I'll bite what's the Fire Engine your neighbour has for.

Hes a fireman . . Its a 1953 antique .. Look at TV3 website at http://www.tv3.ie/news.php and scroll down to "wet weather"piece. .

Only way politicians listen is to people who shout . . Theres a free lesson for some of ye. Excusing/ignoring incompetent government action by blaming the victim is not the cleverest way of trying to improve society or indeed isnt really going to push for accountability within the political circles. .

Nor should it surprise you when that said government screws the country and an even more incomepetent (opposition) government is rewarded for its failed promises in boomtime . .

Ah but sure, if I hadnt of bought it, there would be no problem right ? Ok , there might be ghost estates built on flood plains but that would be no problem ? Well the taxpayer would own them and have to knock them down and then there would be no problem ?

Ah, ignorance is bliss . To be sure, to be sure . .

Fr_Dougal

Drumpot wrote: »

Hes a fireman . . Its a 1953 antique .. Look at TV3 website at http://www.tv3.ie/news.php and scroll down to "wet weather"piece. .

Only way politicians listen is to people who shout . . Theres a free lesson for some of ye. Excusing/ignoring incompetent government action by blaming the victim is not the cleverest way of trying to improve society or indeed isnt really going to push for accountability within the political circles. .

Nor should it surprise you when that said government screws the country and an even more incomepetent (opposition) government is rewarded for its failed promises in boomtime . .

Ah but sure, if I hadnt of bought it, there would be no problem right ? Ok , there might be ghost estates built on flood plains but that would be no problem ? Well the taxpayer would own them and have to knock them down and then there would be no problem ?

Ah, ignorance is bliss . To be sure, to be sure . .

Posting anonymously on After Hours isn't exactly shouting now is it?

To be honest I couldn't give two sweet fecks about some boggy sh1thole on Bettystown.

magicbastarder

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

From the sounds of the OP they knew plenty about the site before it was built on.

from the sounds of the OP he *knows* plenty about the site.
where did you pick up that he knew this before he bought?

Zab

Drumpot wrote: »

Fourthly, I bought a house that was built in an estate that was cleared by the county councel. While its naive in hindsight, its not unreasonable to expect your government to zone land appropriatley.

What you're saying does not gel with my understanding of what land zoning is. My understanding is that land zoning is for separating different uses of land what are deemed incompatible with each other, so that you don't get a car factory beside your house etc. Perhaps what you're talking about would be covered by planning permission? Even there I don't know if they have a remit to decide on the desirability or a location, although surely it would have to come into play if the planning for a large residential complex.

Drumpot

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Posting anonymously on After Hours isn't exactly shouting now is it?

To be honest I couldn't give two sweet fecks about some boggy sh1thole on Bettystown.

Nobody asked you to care about anything , why do you feel the need to let us know that this issue does not concern you ? . .

Cookie_Monster

magicbastarder wrote: »

from the sounds of the OP he *knows* plenty about the site.
where did you pick up that he knew this before he bought?

who spends several hundred thousand euro on anything without basic checks?
An engineering report by an independent contractor would have flagged it, or even checking about since it had clearly flooded previously and had several planning issues highlight by nearby businesses...

Drumpot

Zab wrote: »

What you're saying does not gel with my understanding of what land zoning is. My understanding is that land zoning is for separating different uses of land what are deemed incompatible with each other, so that you don't get a car factory beside your house etc. Perhaps what you're talking about would be covered by planning permission? Even there I don't know if they have a remit to decide on the desirability or a location, although surely it would have to come into play if the planning for a large residential complex.

I honestly dont know much about the zoning of land but in attached piece, the Councellors were warned about the possible/probable issues arising - http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/features/heard-the-one-about-building-houses-in-a-marsh-its-no-joke-243217.html

This was published 1 year before my estate was built :

"Meath County Council who voted to rezone the land - against the advice of Meath County Council's planners, who told members about an Office of Public Works report which gave details of flooding patterns in the area."

The main question is why ? Why go against professional advice not to ? we can all make cynical guesses, but nothing I can come up with shows these councellors in a good light . .

Then the paper gave one of the councellors reasons for zoning the land:

"As the waters rise and the house owners start thinking about compensation, then they will remember the words of Fianna Fail Councillor Pat Boshell, who told the council meeting last week that he did not accept the advice from planners that the land was subject to flooding. "That is the poorest, pathetic excuse I have ever heard for land not being rezoned," he said. "

Its pathetic not to build on a flood plain becuase houses will be at threat of flooding . . There we have it . . Complete logical explanation that trumps professional recomendations.

And just for the resident poster on this thread who "doesnt care about some bog in Bettystown" , perhaps your username suggests you are too close to this story:

"He said this, we can suppose, in the way that Father Dougal, the dim priest in the Father Ted series, would say it, with a glassy stare and a big grin. In fact if you add a 'Ted' there at the end of his sentence, to read: "That is the poorest, pathetic excuse I have ever heard for land not being rezoned, Ted," and you heard it from the lips of Ardal O'Hanlon, you can imagine loud slappings of thighs across the country at the wonderful drollery of this innocent in the sleeveless pullover.

Much of the comic pleasure in Councillor Boshell's remarks comes from the fact that, as with Father Dougal, what he was saying is, in a curious way, true: the fact of the land being a flood plain is indeed an excuse for not rezoning: if you build houses on it they will probably be flooded.

But he, possibly not seeing the connection between, on the one hand, the planners' advice that this was a flood plain and, on the other, actual houses getting flooded, is, like Father Dougal, operating in a different reality.

Let us remember the name of Councillor Pat Boshell and make sure that if houses do get built on this site, and if they do get flooded, there is no question of public money being applied to alleviating the damage done. Let us remember and say: "Send the bill to Boshell."

Perhaps councellors only zone land, but to zone land that they are warned against doing is at best questionable practise . .

Drumpot

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

who spends several hundred thousand euro on anything without basic checks?
An engineering report by an independent contractor would have flagged it, or even checking about since it had clearly flooded previously and had several planning issues highlight by nearby businesses...

In hindsight that would of been the right thing to do, since nobody else was doing it, I didnt either. My bad . .

How does that solve the issue of poorly planned estates ?

Oh wait, it doesnt, it just ignores the major issue to have a pop at the poster . . Wonder why this country seldom progresses or gets better politicians . . Certainly isnt because people focus on the minor issues at the expense of the big ones. .

magicbastarder

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

who spends several hundred thousand euro on anything without basic checks?
An engineering report by an independent contractor would have flagged it, or even checking about since it had clearly flooded previously and had several planning issues highlight by nearby businesses...

most surveyors will only check the structural integrity of the property itself, and will not check for any issues related to history of flooding, etc.
i once had a survey done on a house with a flat roof and in the report, the surveyor commented more on the state of the decor in the house than he did on the condition of the flat roof, which i was obviously much more interested in.
i was told this was standard practice when i queried it.

you cannot expect someone buying their first house to know all the ins and outs of buying - and it can be an intimidating experience - and the difference between a good solicitor and a bad solicitor can be a world of difference - and a house purchase is often the first contact people have with a solicitor, so they've no previous experience of choosing one.

the high and mighty 'it's your own fault' line being peddled by many in this thread is intensely smug.

Dravokivich

magicbastarder wrote: »

the high and mighty 'it's your own fault' line being peddled by many in this thread is intensely smug.

This is really sticking out to me as well. This thread isn't about 1 sap who got conned through some obvious folly. It's about an entire residential community being allowed to be built in an area unfit for purpose. This has happened in a crazy amount of places through out the country and is a valid issue of concern.

Valetta

If people didn't buy houses in these estates, then builders wouldn't build them.

That's not being smug- it's just common sense.

The OP has admitted that they were wrong and should have done basic checks before making their decision.

They are also making a huge leap to suggest that the zoning of the land was corrupt.

westendgirlie

I really don't get why people are blaming the homeowners.

If I buy a brand new car, should I employ the services of a mechanic to check it over before I purchase it? Or, should the manufacturers ensure that the car is safe for the road?

The same principal should apply to all purchases. If houses are given the go ahead by a government department to be built on a certain plot of land, Mr & Mrs Joe Soap would have trusted their decision that it was safe to do so. Otherwise, what is the point in a planning/zoning department?

secman

I have huge sympathy for people who bought in good faith and assumed that County Council planners were in fact suitably qualified to make good planning decisions. the same people who are now guarded and have their salaries protected by the "Croke Park Agreement" which at this stage should be renamed "South Park Agreement" as its pure comical now especially with the recent climdown on "Allowances" by Howlin.

Quite close to where i work there is a remarkable bit of "planning" lunacy. Right on the junction where the canal meets the beginning of the Naas Road and where the Luas cuts across this junction and heads down the canal. Literally, right on this junction a "tower block of appartments was built, with parking ! It really has to be seen to be believed, how it ever got planning ! Needless to say the developer went "belly up".

Scandalous decisions were made and we the taxpayers will be footing the bill for many years to come, in the meantime Noonan's head must be sore from all the patting on it everytime to goes to Europe to "get our bailout " sorted............ grat little man..... doing a super job........irish are great .....but fcuck off !

gets coat and leaves the room................



Secman

magicbastarder

secman wrote: »

I have huge sympathy for people who bought in good faith and assumed that County Council planners were in fact suitably qualified to make good planning decisions. the same people who are now guarded and have their salaries protected by the "Croke Park Agreement" which at this stage should be renamed "South Park Agreement" as its pure comical now especially with the recent climdown on "Allowances" by Howlin.

to be fair to the council planners, a lot of them would have left their jobs as their recommendations would have been overruled hand over fist by local gombeen politicians, to make sure developments went ahead.

'chaos at the crossroads' by frank mcdonald and james nix is a highly recommended read - if your blood pressure can stand it.

magicbastarder

Valetta wrote: »

If people didn't buy houses in these estates, then builders wouldn't build them.

i remember talking to people who were afraid *not* to buy. they weren't economists, they didn't know that house prices would not continue to rise, and they needed to get in on the bottom rung while the bottom rung was still affordable. what other option did they have? continue to pay spiralling rents?
hindsight is 20/20.

starbelgrade

magicbastarder wrote: »

most surveyors will only check the structural integrity of the property itself, and will not check for any issues related to history of flooding, etc.
i once had a survey done on a house with a flat roof and in the report, the surveyor commented more on the state of the decor in the house than he did on the condition of the flat roof, which i was obviously much more interested in.
i was told this was standard practice when i queried it.

A surveyor's report is generally a visual superficial inspection only and doesn't include any inspection of the structural integrity of the house. In order to check the structural integrity, you would need to employ the services of a structural engineer to carry out the inspection and can entail uncovering work such as removing roof coverings, plasterboard and more.

This is why it is always important to check with your surveyor what is and isn't included in their inspection & report. It's also equally important to ensure that they are suitably qualified and insured to carry out such work, otherwise you will have little or no comeback.

magicbastarder wrote: »

the high and mighty 'it's your own fault' line being peddled by many in this thread is intensely smug.

It is a little smug, but the reality is that when you purchase a house, the responsibility to ensure that you have employed the right people - be it architects, solicitors, engineers or surveyors is entirely your own.

This applies also to people building new houses. They often assume that ultimately the builder or architect is responsible to ensure that their house is built to the correct standards, however legally, it is the building owner who bears this responsibility.

It is, I'm afraid, not only a case of "buyer beware" but also one of "buyer's liability".

Drumpot

http://utv.vo.llnwd.net/o16/LMFM/2012/09/26/Loosetalk260912.mp3



http://2fm.rte.ie/colmhayes/



On first link, that’s me on LMFM, give it a minute and clickforward to about 3 quarters way through . .


For the 2fm one click on “listen” and the “floodinginterview”.


This is my life, while I accept responsibility for buying my house, I make no apologies for doing what I can for my family to get the problem fixed . . Maybe when some of the less empathetic posters have their own family, they might understand my motives for using as many mediums as possible to get our government to fix a problem they ultlimatley caused . .

Valetta

Drumpot wrote: »

http://utv.vo.llnwd.net/o16/LMFM/2012/09/26/Loosetalk260912.mp3



http://2fm.rte.ie/colmhayes/



On first link, that’s me on LMFM, give it a minute and clickforward to about 3 quarters way through . .


For the 2fm one click on “listen” and the “floodinginterview”.


This is my life, while I accept responsibility for buying my house, I make no apologies for doing what I can for my family to get the problem fixed . . Maybe when some of the less empathetic posters have their own family, they might understand my motives for using as many mediums as possible to get our government to fix a problem they ultlimatley caused . .

I'm genuinely sorry for your plight, but it wasn't caused by the government.

Builders built the houses and the people, including yourself bought them.

It is not as if the problems were not evident beforehand.

You still have not come up with any evidence of corruption in the process.

Drumpot

Valetta wrote: »

I'm genuinely sorry for your plight, but it wasn't caused by the government.

Builders built the houses and the people, including yourself bought them.

It is not as if the problems were not evident beforehand.

You still have not come up with any evidence of corruption in the process.

With all due respect, if the land is not zoned for building houses cant be built . . Problem solved before anybody is hurt . .

Did you read the clip and quote from a local counceller in the Irish Independent paper before our estate was built?

I provided evidence that the OPW warned and raised grave concerns of flood plains in bettystown .. You can try and argue semantics and push the whole "technically its not corruption, could be just incompetency" lame bullsh*t excuse , but at the end of the day, if there is no logical reason for the zoning of our estate, then you have to look at the probable motives for it happening. I cant quote people (other councellors/tds/OPW/County Council officials) who dont want to be publically quoted but my thread assumptions and suspicians are even shared by people prominent in the current government . .

I spoke with a junior engineer from the OPW yesterday and they said that there is no reasonable explanation as to why this land was zoned for building. They said you dont have to be a qualifed engineer to see it was always going to be a bad idea, epecially with the planned expansion that was always on the cards in Bettystown.

That aside, if our councels have nothing to fear (ie corrupted actions) , then they wouldnt mind sharing why councellors voted against professional advice . . I think people in this country think the word corruption is extreme simply because many wouldnt know what the word means because its so prominent in politics . . Im not trying to insult anybody, I think we have gotten used to being screwed so much we dont even realise it when we are letting the F**kers away with all sorts of dodgy dealings . .

Edit: Changed the thread name by adding a question mark . . There you go, you can draw your own conclusions as to the logic of why the land was zoned . .

Zab

Drumpot wrote: »

I honestly dont know much about the zoning of land but in attached piece, the Councellors were warned about the possible/probable issues arising - http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/features/heard-the-one-about-building-houses-in-a-marsh-its-no-joke-243217.html

Okay, that wasn't how I thought it worked. Even if it wasn't "supposed" to be addressed at zoning you'd still think it should be addressed at some stage prior to them being built, so perhaps my point wouldn't have mattered even if it was correct.

magicbastarder

Valetta wrote: »

It is not as if the problems were not evident beforehand.

you do know that many, many people were unable to afford houses in the area they grew up in, thus resulting in them buying houses in areas they had no previous connection with?
the only thing that would have brought the buyers to these areas would have been the fact that there were houses they could afford. so the suggestion that they would have known what the area was like beforehand doesn't stack up.