Phil Hogan and Parish Pump politics [MERGED WITH MOD WARNING]

expectationlost

wow hogan slimed the family, the issue of anti-social behaviour were about another family

steddyeddy

Merch wrote: »

Maybe they dont, I know of a family like that too, known but have no real record, when I told them I would report them regarding their actions, I was discreetly threatened.
I've no doubt why people like this have no record.

People like what exactly?

Bullseye1

This country is crying out for an end of petrol pump politics from our nationally elected TDs and ministers. Hogan should have left the issue with his FG councillors who were elected in Kilkenny to deal with such matters.

Merch

steddyeddy wrote: »

People like what exactly?

My neighbours, anti social behaviour is a by-word for them,
similarily I have had experiences of assault at the hands of others like them too,all the same background.
My experience tells me stay away from them where possible and while I even had an open mind about it in the past after these instances, now I wish to have no dealings with them whatsoever and can appreciate when someone else doesnt either.
I'll avoid them where possible, I would never turn my back to them, if you cant understand that then you fortunately haven't had my experiences of them.

Sierra Oscar

Merch wrote: »

Maybe they dont, I know of a family like that too, known but have no real record, when I told them I would report them regarding their actions, I was discreetly threatened.
I've no doubt why people like this have no record.

Come off it - you will find that in this case it has been the family itself that has been at the receiving end of threatening letters and comments.

Merch

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Come off it - you will find that in this case it has been the family itself that has been at the receiving end of threatening letters and comments.

Come off it? are you saying Im just making it up, in my case i have been threatened,
You are effectively saying you have intimate knowledge of these people and all their dealings and are fully aware they have never engaged in anti social behaviour.
Based on 100% of my experiences I find that hard to believe.
It seems you are surmising, well I surmise that its unlikely they would be so vehemently disliked that someone/a number of people would go to this lenght without some cause.
Maybe they are victims,if so I sympathise, but my experience doesnt tally with that.

and other experiences I hear, are virtually totally negative, do tally.
Even those that are without fault in that group (unsure what to call them for fear of being rounded on by the PC brigade) protect those that are with fault.

Sierra Oscar

Merch wrote: »

Come off it? are you saying Im just making it up, in my case i have been threatened,

You are claiming that there is a likelihood that this family has intimidated others to ensure that there have been no complaints made against them. The reality is that there is no evidence to suggest that this family has been engaged in anti-social behaviour or criminal activity. Evidence does however illustrate that the family itself has been receiving harassing correspondence since attempting to move into the locality.

I suggest you backup your thinly veiled assertion that this family has intimated others - if you cannot then you should drop the issue in my view.

Merch

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

You are claiming that there is a likelihood that this family has intimidated others to ensure that there have been no complaints made against them. The reality is that there is no evidence to suggest that this family has been engaged in anti-social behaviour or criminal activity. Evidence does however illustrate that the family itself has been receiving harassing correspondence since attempting to move into the locality.

I suggest you backup your thinly veiled assertion that this family has intimated others - if you cannot then you should drop the issue in my view.

Im not claiming it, I said along the lines its possible, it may or may not have happened, you said they have never, I repsonded by saying unless you have intimate knowledge of their every movement and action they you really dont know that, it could well be quite possible.

I didnt assert anything, so Im not backing it up as i didnt say it, I SAID ITS POSSIBLE.
I suggets you back up that they have never, see? its impossible for either of us to do that.
Drop it? drop the PC stuff yourself, some of them are engaged in anti social stuff, experienced it myself, way more than from others.

Then hiding behind the discrimination card.
If you had repeated negative interactions with them, that might colour your view a bit.

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy

He is the worst minister in the cabinet.

There are a million reasons for him to resign or be fired...this is just the latest one.

touts

It's a fundamental part of our political system that the local TD lobbies on behalf of people. He/she lobbies to get them a medical card. He/she lobbies to get them planning permission. He/she lobbies to get their estate taken over by the council. He/she lobbies to get speed bumps installed. He/she lobbies to....... etc etc etc

The locals did not want this family next door to them so Hogan lobbied for them. It is THEIR opinions and then the nature of the political system people should be directing their focus onto. If Hogan resigned the locals still would not want this family and the political system would still be based on electing the best pot hole fillers.

Happyman42

touts wrote: »

It's a fundamental part of our political system that the local TD lobbies on behalf of people. He/she lobbies to get them a medical card. He/she lobbies to get them planning permission. He/she lobbies to get their estate taken over by the council. He/she lobbies to get speed bumps installed. He/she lobbies to....... etc etc etc

The locals did not want this family next door to them so Hogan lobbied for them. It is THEIR opinions and then the nature of the political system people should be directing their focus onto. If Hogan resigned the locals still would not want this family and the political system would still be based on electing the best pot hole fillers.

But is it right that we have allowed central government to be like that.
It's a very inefficient way to do it as very soon TD's are compromised by local concerns, instead of being free to govern the country as a whole.
James O'Reilly's actions kinda underlining the point.
The criteria didn't fit so he 'just widened the criteria' to look after his vote base, as another of his party said last night.
It's a classic of sleeveenism. 'He widened the criteria'

touts

Happyman42 wrote: »

But is it right that we have allowed central government to be like that.
It's a very inefficient way to do it as very soon TD's are compromised by local concerns, instead of being free to govern the country as a whole.
James O'Reilly's actions kinda underlining the point.
The criteria didn't fit so he 'just widened the criteria' to look after his vote base, as another of his party said last night.
It's a classic of sleeveenism. 'He widened the criteria'

We elect the best pot-hole-fillers and coffin-chasers to be TDs but then that means the pool of people to pull from when it comes to appointing ministers to run the government is hopelessly shallow. When you think about it at the moment Luke Ming Flanagan and Mattie McGrath are eligible to be Irish government Ministers but Michael O'Leary and David McWilliams are not.

Conmaicne Mara

I would not want a family living beside, or near, me that had an anti social track record. It is incidental that they are travellers IMO.

Grudaire

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I would not want a family living beside, or near, me that had an anti social track record. It is incidental that they are travellers IMO.

Do they have an anti social track record?

I have yet to see any evidence that says so...

Conmaicne Mara

Cliste wrote: »

Do they have an anti social track record?

I have yet to see any evidence that says so...

According to Hogan yesterday they do, was on the radio.

Grudaire

That eijit will be hit by a slander case next.

I definitely think it is poor form for Phil Hogan to feel that he has the power and right to decide who is and isn't anti-social.

The local families have every right to not want anti-social people to move in next door. The local TD isn't the one who gets to make that decision though.

Conmaicne Mara

He wrote a letter, he didn't decide anything. It's not his job to decide this, but he's free to represent people in his constituency.

Grudaire

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

He wrote a letter, he didn't decide anything. It's not his job to decide this, but he's free to represent people in his constituency.

All people, or just some people?
Or are TD's only meant to represent those who vote for them?

He wrote the letter, and he claimed to have sorted it out for the constituents. I would say he made a few decisions in that lot.
The fact that he actually turned out as not having any influence on the decision is immaterial.

Technocentral

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

You are claiming that there is a likelihood that this family has intimidated others to ensure that there have been no complaints made against them. The reality is that there is no evidence to suggest that this family has been engaged in anti-social behaviour or criminal activity. Evidence does however illustrate that the family itself has been receiving harassing correspondence since attempting to move into the locality.

I suggest you backup your thinly veiled assertion that this family has intimated others - if you cannot then you should drop the issue in my view.

But the racist/prejudiced type doesn't need evidence, it would be like saying a black family 2 doors down were engaged in anti social behavior so all blacks are low lifes, unfortunately this country is full of such small minded people,

antoobrien

Cliste wrote: »

he claimed to have sorted it out for the constituents. I would say he made a few decisions in that lot.

Actually no he did not, he just stated that they would not be housed there. There's no indication as to who made the decision, where he got his information fro etc. It's a remarkably short note, a waste of an A4 page really.

Conmaicne Mara

Cliste wrote: »

All people, or just some people?
Or are TD's only meant to represent those who vote for them?

He wrote the letter, and he claimed to have sorted it out for the constituents. I would say he made a few decisions in that lot.
The fact that he actually turned out as not having any influence on the decision is immaterial.

If someone makes a case to him who lives outside of his constituency then I'm sure he can decide for himself whether he can help them or not.

If you don't tell them, or make it widely known, then TD's don't know who does or doesn't vote for them.

If it's a genuine case where the family has an anti social record then more power to his, or any other representatives, elbow.

People make rods for their own backs by their actions, it'll come out in the wash whether it's the family or Hogan in this instance.

If it's true they have an anti social record, I'm not here to vouch for anyone, then I don't see anything wrong with that Hogan done.

Sierra Oscar

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I would not want a family living beside, or near, me that had an anti social track record. It is incidental that they are travellers IMO.

There is no evidence that the family in question have a track record of anti-social behaviour or criminal activity. Phil Hogan's word is not exactly the most reliable in this case considering it is he who is in the centre of the ****storm.

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

He wrote a letter, he didn't decide anything. It's not his job to decide this, but he's free to represent people in his constituency.

You are correct in saying that he personally did not decide on the case - however he made representations to the County Manager, who ultimately makes the decision, and considering his ministerial position his letters would be highly influential.

People keep harping on that it is the duty of a TD to make representations on behalf of their constituents, which is true. However it is not the duty of a TD to go out of their way to attempt to deny individuals access to housing - especially when the TD in question has responsibility for social housing. Not only is it morally wrong, but it is bordering on illegality also.

Conmaicne Mara

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

There is no evidence that the family in question have a track record of anti-social behaviour or criminal activity. Phil Hogan's word is not exactly the most reliable in this case considering it is he who is in the centre of the ****storm.

He has claimed they have, I'm not vouching for him or them, but as I said it'll come out in the wash who is or isn't being entirely truthful about that. The family are claiming they don't have an anti social record yet people seem to take their word

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

You are correct in saying that he personally did not decide on the case - however he made representations to the County Manager, who ultimately makes the decision, and considering his ministerial position his letters would be highly influential.

People keep harping on that it is the duty of a TD to make representations on behalf of their constituents, which is true. However it is not the duty of a TD to go out of their way to attempt to deny individuals access to housing - especially when the TD in question has responsibility for social housing.

Highly influential to the point where his letter was ignored

Personally, I value quality of life above a lot of other things. If I was in a situation where an anti social family was about to be plonked in beside me I would be delighted if any TD in my constituency represented my view that they shouldn't be.

Mr.Micro

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

There is no evidence that the family in question have a track record of anti-social behaviour or criminal activity. Phil Hogan's word is not exactly the most reliable in this case considering it is he who is in the centre of the ****storm.



You are correct in saying that he personally did not decide on the case - however he made representations to the County Manager, who ultimately makes the decision, and considering his ministerial position his letters would be highly influential.

People keep harping on that it is the duty of a TD to make representations on behalf of their constituents, which is true. However it is not the duty of a TD to go out of their way to attempt to deny individuals access to housing - especially when the TD in question has responsibility for social housing. Not only is it morally wrong, but it is bordering on illegality also.

Yeah, Hogan has an arrogance and superiority complex IMO. The unelected County Manager quango would be influenced by the minister's letter and Hogan knew what he was doing. Power is everything to this man and little accountability.

Grudaire

In the absence of any evidence (other than Phil Hogans remark) can you stop referring to/implying anti-social behavior?

You're perfectly right when you say "I said it'll come out in the wash". In the meantime there's been no actual evidence to suggest this.

Conmaicne Mara

Cliste wrote: »

In the absence of any evidence (other than Phil Hogans remark) can you stop referring to/implying anti-social behavior?

You're perfectly right when you say "I said it'll come out in the wash". In the meantime there's been no actual evidence to suggest this.

No, I don't see it as an irrelevance, if true it's an important part of what happened. It's been reported on radio and in national newspapers. I haven't seen evidence that the family have no anti social behaviour record either.

Grudaire

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I haven't seen evidence that the family have no anti social behaviour record either.

Oh jaysus now! I not even bothered explaining how wrong this argument is!

Conmaicne Mara

Cliste wrote: »

Oh jaysus now! I not even bothered explaining how wrong this argument is!

Sauce for the goose hogans word seems to be dismissed so readily. I want to know why the family's claim to the contrary is believed so readily?

There is an answer to this somewhere, until it's found then it's just guesswork.

Technocentral

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

No, I don't see it as an irrelevance, if true it's an important part of what happened. It's been reported on radio and in national newspapers. I haven't seen evidence that the family have no anti social behaviour record either.

Bloody hell! Wheres the evidence that you don't have an anti social record? Thank f*ck people like you aren't running the country.

Conmaicne Mara

Technocentral wrote: »

Bloody hell! Wheres the evidence that you don't have an anti social record? Thank f*ck people like you aren't running the country.

Apparently we are :cool:

Technocentral

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Apparently we are :cool:

I mean in sufficient numbers to spread hatred and prejudice even more than it is at the moment. :mad:

Conmaicne Mara

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

It is incidental that they are travellers IMO.

Technocentral wrote: »

spread hatred and prejudice even more than it is at the moment. :mad:

Slow down there chief before you fall all over your righteous indignation.

It's of no consequence to me whether the family are or aren't travellers, Irish, foreign, or martians.

It is the alleged anti social element that is of concern to me.

K-9

I'll remind posters of the previous mod warning, if posters are going to make claims they should provide a link to an article or a radio/TV show to back it up, otherwise it's just he said, she said nonsense. Also keep replies civil please.

Conmaicne Mara

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/im-not-anti-traveller-says-hogan-in-row-over-his-letter-3242102.html

The minister claimed the family was involved in anti-social behaviour before.


"There was an anti-social behaviour issue relating to that family who were already housed in that area going back to the 1990s," he said.

Radio station, it was either RTE or Newstalk, can't remember.

Technocentral

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/im-not-anti-traveller-says-hogan-in-row-over-his-letter-3242102.html




Radio station, it was either RTE or Newstalk, can't remember.

What about the anti social elements sending letters threatening to shoot the family? They're the scumbags in this story, but of course they are probably settled people so thats ok.

BlaasForRafa

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/im-not-anti-traveller-says-hogan-in-row-over-his-letter-3242102.html




Radio station, it was either RTE or Newstalk, can't remember.

The family were interviewed by TV3 and the interview was broadcast on the Vincent Browne show last night, it can be seen on the TV3 website. In the interview the father eventually admitted that he'd been in trouble with the law before but didn't see how that should affect how his neighbours perceived him.

Also on a tangential point but one which I noticed in the interview was that the family seemed to think that not only were they entitled for a house to be provided by the local authority but that when their children grew up that their children should automatically be entitled to a house also, I thought that was a bit much.

I'd be pretty horrified if a family of travellers moved in near where I lived but... Phil Hogan (or his office, whatever) was still wrong to get involved in this issue in an official capacity.

Conmaicne Mara

Technocentral wrote: »

What about the anti social elements sending letters threatening to shoot the family? They're the scumbags in this story, but of course they are probably settled people so thats ok.

I reported your post. I explained to you I am not interested in any families ethnicity.

Technocentral

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I reported your post. I explained to you I am not interested in any families ethnicity.

My point is that the revulsion should be aimed at the locals threatening to shoot these people not this family themselves, thats all.

Conmaicne Mara

Technocentral wrote: »

My point is that the revulsion should be aimed at the locals threatening to shoot these people not this family themselves, thats all.

The Gardai should be pointed at anyone threatening to shoot someone.

Sierra Oscar

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

The Gardai should be pointed at anyone threatening to shoot someone.

They have been, there is an ongoing investigation.

jay0109

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The family were interviewed by TV3 and the interview was broadcast on the Vincent Browne show last night, it can be seen on the TV3 website. In the interview the father eventually admitted that he'd been in trouble with the law before but didn't see how that should affect how his neighbours perceived him.

Also on a tangential point but one which I noticed in the interview was that the family seemed to think that not only were they entitled for a house to be provided by the local authority but that when their children grew up that their children should automatically be entitled to a house also, I thought that was a bit much.

I'd be pretty horrified if a family of travellers moved in near where I lived but... Phil Hogan (or his office, whatever) was still wrong to get involved in this issue in an official capacity.

Thats the most insightful post in this whole merry-go-round of a thread.

Patrick Carthy clearly makes reference to the fact that he's never done any harm to the people 'around here' on a couple of occasions(36mins30secs onwards in the clip). He stresses 'around here'.
He also goes on to mention that what happened in the past should'nt be held against him now as that punishes his kids and discriminates against them!!!!!- some serious logic there.
His wife talk's hypothetically about how if she or the husband caused damage/trouble in an area, will that make it hard for the myriad of their kids (and more to come I'm sure) to get houses free from the taxpayer when they grow up...."we're entitled to live in a house" she says...of course you are, buy one

the whole attitude just defies logic

Laminations

Phil Hogan was wrong to get involved, or at least his constituents were wrong to go to a national legislator and minister with their concerns over this housing issue - it is yet another example of a TD trying to interfere in local issues. But regardless of the 'system' he should have had more cop on and tact. He should be considering his position.

I don't believe it is that the family are travellers that was the cause of local concern, I think it was related to behaviour rather than ethnicity.

From earlier this year

Micheal Carty siad that he would be unwilling to give up their horses in exchange for housing. “We’ve been settled been settled for years and the horses are the only tie we have left to traveller culture,” said Micheal Carty. As Micheal Carty’s children get older his needs are also changing. One of his children got married last year and he’d not sure that the house the council will give him will suit his needs anymore, but he is realistic, “There are a lot of things we would want but the main thing is a house and a place for our horses,” said Mr Micheal Carty

http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/local/appalling-conditions-in-st-catherine-s-halting-site-1-3523646

I would certainly object to horses being moved into a residential estate and kept in totally inappropriate conditions. being a traveller shouldn't be a protection against any and all criticism of ones behaviour, whether it be previous anti-social issues or animal welfare issues. Mr. McCarthy was asked in a radio interview about anti-social behaviour - 'It's not as if you have a let of horses running around the garden', the interviewer asked. The reply was "Not at all, I only have the two." We need licences for dogs, its about time we got serious about horse ownership.

woodoo

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The family were interviewed by TV3 and the interview was broadcast on the Vincent Browne show last night, it can be seen on the TV3 website. In the interview the father eventually admitted that he'd been in trouble with the law before but didn't see how that should affect how his neighbours perceived him.

Also on a tangential point but one which I noticed in the interview was that the family seemed to think that not only were they entitled for a house to be provided by the local authority but that when their children grew up that their children should automatically be entitled to a house also, I thought that was a bit much.

I'd be pretty horrified if a family of travellers moved in near where I lived but... Phil Hogan (or his office, whatever) was still wrong to get involved in this issue in an official capacity.

I'm the same i wouldn't want them moving in beside me.

I have no respect for their culture of moving about the place in caravans, running horses, fighting, rarely working in steady jobs etc. I'd rather see them permanently settle and try and get jobs and live a normal anti-social free existence.

sparkling sea

I would agree that in my experience many travellers live outside the laws of this country.

I too would have grave reservations about any family with a history of law breaking moving into my neighourhood - life is hard enough and support is thin on the ground when people are confronted with anti social behaviour, so I wouldn't want to take the risk unless I had some pretty strong assurances that I had some right to recourse.

however

Phil Hogans behaviour as a national legislator with regard to this family was utterly disgraceful. He should have been sacked if he is so unaware of the fundemental rights of our own Constitution, not to mention to mention the charter of Human Rights we have signed up to.

Travellers who act like outlaws need to be dealt with - Phil Hogan needs to go.

McNulty737

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/traveller-in-phil-hogan-row-was-convicted-of-stealing-cash-3249451.html

I saw the Vincent Browne show where Vincent was screaming at a guest for being 'racist' (i thought travellers were irish, no?)

I would be extremely annoyed if I had PAID for a house in a certain area, only to find out travellers who are 'entitled' to a free house next door were moving in and bringing their horses with them. It is not 'discrimination', the fact is that travellers are heavily associated with criminal and anti social behaviour for a reason. That's not being 'racist' or 'prejudiced', its being realistic and I would love for a group of travellers to be housed beside a politically correct idealistic lefty idiot like Vincent Brown....lets see if he changes his tune when that (never) happens.

Grudaire

McNulty737 wrote: »

I saw the Vincent Browne show where Vincent was screaming at a guest for being 'racist' (i thought travellers were irish, no?)

You do know 'Irish' isn't a race?

*facepalm*

McNulty737

Errr....yes I am aware of that, what is your point?

If a non Irish person made a comment such as "all Irish are potato eating Neanderthals", would that not be considered "racist", regardless of whether or not Irish is a "race"?

McNulty737

My question is why is associating anti social behaviour with a group of Irish people (travellers) considered "racist"? I can understand why it could be considered "prejudiced", but not racist.

Are travellers considered an ethnic group, and therefore criticism of them can be defined as racist? If so can someone explain to me a bit about their culture apart from living in caravans, bare knuckle boxing and racing horses down motorways?

Grudaire

McNulty737 wrote: »

Errr....yes I am aware of that, what is your point?

If a non Irish person made a comment such as "all Irish are potato eating Neanderthals", would that not be considered "racist", regardless of whether or not Irish is a "race"?

McNulty737 wrote: »

My question is why is associating anti social behaviour with a group of Irish people (travellers) considered "racist"? I can understand why it could be considered "prejudiced", but not racist.

Not only have you answered your own question.

And I would worry that you might be a bigot...

McNulty737

Fine you can call me a bigot, but im actually being serious - tell me about their culture?