availability of knowledge regarding estate

have2flushtwice

Hi all,
heres a hypothetical situation we were speaking about at lunchtime, and I would like some opinions on the following scenario:

assuming an individual dies intestate, leaving a house, a car and no other posessions as their only assetts. Administration would be taken out by one benificary to close out the estate by selling both assetts, and dividing the estate equally among all beneficaries of equal entitlement.
straight forward enough so far.

then....
However, the administrator moves into the house, and claims to be paying approximate market value in rent, while also claiming to be maintaining the house, and driving the deceased car around the village


The beneficaries are getting edgy, as the deceased has passed approx. five years ago.


So a letter is written to the administrator asking for the reason of delay, and the reply is that there "complications with the disposal of the house and car, and the estate cannot be wound up in the short term. the administrator is working through the complications"

Is five years too long to sell a standard car? The value of the assett would have decreased dramatically, who is responsible for the shortfall?
is five years too long to sell a house? again, the value five years ago would have been almost double the value now.
It would appear that there are no complications and the administrator is squatting in the assetts, but this cannot be proven, as no details are released.
It is not worth taking the case to the high court, as costs will outweigh the value of the estate.
what can a beneficary do? of course letters can be written, but letters can also be ignored. would the beneficary be in line for another 5 year wait?

pk82

You do know that there are rules governing who inherits assets and in what proportion of the deceased when intestate (no will)?

Also certain assets *may* fall outside of these rules, depending on the situation

In the hypothetical situation would the deceased have a wife, who is still living and /or children who are still living.? If neither wife nor children exist would he have siblings?

Have letters of administration (LOA) actually being taken out or are you relying on hearsay? Have you actually seen the LOA? (You can obtain a copy through the probate office)

Claire McCarthy Cork

You're not wrong about the costs of HC action by the aggrieved beneficiaries likely depleting the estate dramatically. This does give the sidelined beneficiaries some leverage though. They could could start the proceedings, and then suggest meeting for negotiation or better still mediation, and seek to settle early/ get the admin to get the finger out.

Or just take advice about the merits of the case and likely cost and outcomes - get it in writing from a solicitor who is also agreeable to avoiding litigation - and then suggest a mediated negotiation take place with a view to resolving the issue early without depleting the estate.

Bit of encouragement might go a long way. Good luck.

have2flushtwice

PK82,
the desceased has beneficaries would be all of equal standing. eg all brothers, no children, no partner.
LOA have been issued to all parties.

Clare McCarthy Cork,
mediation would have been suggested but declined. it the Administrator is aware that a high court ruling would deplete the estate, and therefore is not worth the while of the beneficaries to follow through.

In relation to costs, should the admin continue to "squat" for a further period of time, the eventual outcome will be that there will be little or no monies left to divide, and the only "actual beneficary" will be the squatting administrator, who has refused to engage with any beneficaries throughout the timeframe of administration.

at that point, its game over.

What interventions are possible in the interim, considering the administrator is refusing to engage, but holds the legal ground by right of the LOA?

pk82 wrote: »

You do know that there are rules governing who inherits assets and in what proportion of the deceased when intestate (no will)?

Also certain assets *may* fall outside of these rules, depending on the situation

In the hypothetical situation would the deceased have a wife, who is still living and /or children who are still living.? If neither wife nor children exist would he have siblings?

Have letters of administration (LOA) actually being taken out or are you relying on hearsay? Have you actually seen the LOA? (You can obtain a copy through the probate office)

Milk & Honey

The beneficiaries other than the Administrator should get together and hire a solicitor to represent them. A few letters threatening legal action of various kinds might provoke a reaction.

have2flushtwice

Milk & Honey wrote: »

The beneficiaries other than the Administrator should get together and hire a solicitor to represent them. A few letters threatening legal action of various kinds might provoke a reaction.

Legal letters have been sent throughout the years, up to and including a summons being issued which has been ignored.
a typical letter would outline how long the admimistration has being going on, and requesting the details of delay, of which a minimalist reply full of waffle and no fact has been given. a summons has been issued, and accepted. however should the case not be pursued to court for financial reasons, the summons is of no real threat.

What rights to the administrators knowledge has a benificary? (who is not the administrator) For example; typically the sale of the desceased assetts will fund the estates legal bill. Any legal costs and files are therefore taken from all beneficaries entitlements. Therefore are beneficaries (who are paying the solicitor) are/should be entitled to view corrospondance which is held at the administrators office?

Milk & Honey

If a personal representative is sued under a breach of trust they would not be entitled to take the costs from the estate. Another option is to petition the High Court to have the administrator removed. The new administrator can then distribute the estate and demand the old administrator account for the assets of the estate.

have2flushtwice

Milk & Honey wrote: »

If a personal representative is sued under a breach of trust they would not be entitled to take the costs from the estate. Another option is to petition the High Court to have the administrator removed. The new administrator can then distribute the estate and demand the old administrator account for the assets of the estate.

Is there a period of time (6 years?)of which the petition of removal of administration can be applied for?
Also what cost would this involve, and is it a lenghtly process?

thanks.

Hippo

Still a 'hypothetical' situation, is it!

have2flushtwice

Hippo wrote: »

Still a 'hypothetical' situation, is it!

Strictly speaking, in terms of the administrator doing as they please, it appears that there is no law to govern their activities.
In the instance of a small estate, once all assetts are disposed of, and the delays and excuses continue, the administrator lives the high life, anserable to nobody.
Finally when all monies are "spent on administration duties", and it becomes a burden of inconvienence for the administrator, the administration will be closed out. There is then no point in pursuing the administrator for lost inheritance as they have nothing to furnish any outcomes of such a case, as all has been squandered.

so to interrupt the pattern of events unfolding, as per my first sentence within this post, is there a law to govern the activities? The succession act does not appear to cater for such events.

Claire McCarthy Cork

have2flushtwice wrote: »

Strictly speaking, in terms of the administrator doing as they please, it appears that there is no law to govern their activities.
In the instance of a small estate, once all assetts are disposed of, and the delays and excuses continue, the administrator lives the high life, anserable to nobody.
Finally when all monies are "spent on administration duties", and it becomes a burden of inconvienence for the administrator, the administration will be closed out. There is then no point in pursuing the administrator for lost inheritance as they have nothing to furnish any outcomes of such a case, as all has been squandered.

so to interrupt the pattern of events unfolding, as per my first sentence within this post, is there a law to govern the activities? The succession act does not appear to cater for such events.

That's about right. There's a simple enough procedure you can get on with if the administrator has failed to extract the LOA. However, if he has done so but failed to distribute the estate, you are left with the option of an administration suit, ie suing the administrator in the High Court. Not much in the way of legislation to deal with this, no, so you're looking at common law. The decisive case as far as I know is still Flood v Flood 1999. There has to be a very serious reason indeed for the court to order the removal of the administrator - the bar is set incredibly high, which leaves admins with a lot of scope to just sit on assets, as in this case. A properly informed sol'r/barrister would be in a position to advise properly about the risks and merits of this particular hypothetical example case...

have2flushtwice

where would i request the LOA from?
obviously not the administrator, for obvious reasons.... i presume the probate office?
thanks

Claire McCarthy Cork wrote: »

That's about right. There's a simple enough procedure you can get on with if the administrator has failed to extract the LOA. However, if he has done so but failed to distribute the estate, you are left with the option of an administration suit, ie suing the administrator in the High Court. Not much in the way of legislation to deal with this, no, so you're looking at common law. The decisive case as far as I know is still Flood v Flood 1999. There has to be a very serious reason indeed for the court to order the removal of the administrator - the bar is set incredibly high, which leaves admins with a lot of scope to just sit on assets, as in this case. A properly informed sol'r/barrister would be in a position to advise properly about the risks and merits of this particular hypothetical example case...

pk82

have2flushtwice wrote: »

where would i request the LOA from?
obviously not the administrator, for obvious reasons.... i presume the probate office?
thanks

Yes, the probate office, which is usually part of the Circuit Court office

Here a link to the location of same

http://tinyurl.com/cd7xy8s

If you are in Dublin, you will need to go to the Dublin office.

For regional areas one office may cover a number of counties e.g. Cavan Probate office covers co. Cavan and Longford

The office responsible is determined by the address of the deceased.

I believe a search costs approx €7 and an ordinary copy €6 so ca. €13 in all. I believe one can obtain a certified copy, which costs more.

hope that helps. Good luck :-)