Roisin Shortall resigns as junior minister

sheeper

Fair play to her going
How could she stay under that clown !! Two hospitals in his own area and we still get branded drugs !!!
No self respecting person could stay under him

solas111

ninja900 wrote: »

So what's the alternative and how are we going to pay for it?

I know three guys who live out in a remote place called Craggy Island and I think that they would do a half decent job, compared to the present lot.

Their names are Father Ted Crilly, Father Dougal McGuire and Father Jack Hackett. Not sure how they would deal with the alcohol issue but I think that they would run the health service better than James ‘Thousand Cuts’ Reilly.

Executive Steve

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Was James Reilly right in what he did? I'm still unsure of this. Was Roisin simply overruled in the name of constituency politics or was her list simply a load of crap?

Few choice quotes from Colette Browne's excellent (I urge you all to read it straight away) piece in De Paper:

Minister of State at the Department of Health, Róisín Shortall, had drawn up the original list using the metric of economic deprivation to determine which areas were most in need of primary care teams, but the reason that she settled on this grading mechanism hasn’t yet been expounded on.

Instead, Mr Reilly preferred to rely on other, more nebulous, factors, like advice from the department, the HSE and his ministerial colleagues — although, how his colleagues are remotely qualified to assign health services to specific areas remains another baffling mystery.

One Fine Gael TD who did talk long and hard with the minister about the list was Frank Feighan whose own career was, sadly, looking pretty precarious after the party reneged on a pre-election promise to retain emergency services at Roscommon County Hospital.

One imagines he’s now feeling much more upbeat about his political future after the minister managed to include Boyle and Ballaghaderreen in the priority list — after both towns leapfrogged at least 200 other locations.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/colette-browne/ministers-should-be-exercised-about-reillys-perceived-bias-208782.html

touts

You had a Nanny state idealistic socialist working under a stroke politician focused on his own seat and investments. It was always going to end badly.

One gone. Many more to follow, hopefully.

Skrynesaver

Is anybody else finding it harder to spot the difference between FG and FF as time goes on? This kind of parochial, stroke pulling, abuse of ministerial power rather than governance in the interests of the people is what got us into this mess.

touts

Skrynesaver wrote: »

Is anybody else finding it harder to spot the difference between FG and FF as time goes on? This kind of parochial, stroke pulling, abuse of ministerial power rather than governance in the interests of the people is what got us into this mess.

Why are you surprised. When Fine Gael were in power for two years in the 90s they managed to produce ministeral resignations for corruption from Michael Lowery and Hugh Covney. That was fair going and a much higher rate of corruption per time in power than FF ever managed. The only difference was as least there were resignations.

dvpower

touts wrote: »

Why are you surprised. When Fine Gael were in power for two years in the 90s they managed to produce ministeral resignations for corruption from Michael Lowery and Hugh Covney. That was fair going and a much higher rate of corruption per time in power than FF ever managed. The only difference was as least there were resignations.

A higher rate of consequences for corruption you mean.

efb

Meant to post this is politics thread:
Stroke politics alive and well in Ireland. Ms Shorthall's biggest problem with many of the posters here seems to be 'nanny statism' largely because it meant increasing their cheap booze, they want the state to protect them on their terms.

With Minister Hogan and Reilly's actions over the last few days it proves nothing has changed in Irish politics- and as long as Irish people think they're getting some of the swill they don't seem to mind what's been thrown into the trough- and by whom.

touts

dvpower wrote: »

A higher rate of consequences for corruption you mean.

I never understood why Fine Gael were so proud of having "consequences" for corruption in their party. It's like the farmer being so proud of the new one way locking mechanism he just fitted to the stable door to prevent the horse getting back in but leaves it free to get out.

golfball37

solas111 wrote: »

I know three guys who live out in a remote place called Craggy Island and I think that they would do a half decent job, compared to the present lot.

Their names are Father Ted Crilly, Father Dougal McGuire and Father Jack Hackett. Not sure how they would deal with the alcohol issue but I think that they would run the health service better than James ‘Thousand Cuts’ Reilly.

I always thought of Reilly as Fr Stack

Conmaicne Mara

She could have got more done in Government than outside of it. I don't see the point of her resignation, or the previous spat. If she thought Reilly was mortally wounded then she could bide her time, do her work, and carry on after him. Short sighted thinking.

Bannasidhe

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

She could have got more done in Government than outside of it. I don't see the point of her resignation, or the previous spat. If she thought Reilly was mortally wounded then she could bide her time, do her work, and carry on after him. Short sighted thinking.

Or perhaps she thought that Reilly was going to be allowed to carry on as is and couldn't in all conscience continue as part of our current Fianna Fáil lite government?

Conmaicne Mara

Perhaps she did, but it amounts to the same thing, the position she had gave her better ability to do justice to her principals then the position she now occupies. Politics is politics, no one ever said it was easy, fair, or nice. Why is she even there if she's just content to sit on opposition benches forever.

Bannasidhe

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Perhaps she did, but it amounts to the same thing, the position she had gave her better ability to do justice to her principals then the position she now occupies. Politics is politics, no one ever said it was easy, fair, or nice. Why is she even there if she's just content to sit on opposition benches forever.

Can't Martin, O Dea etc make the same argument for why they remained part of Cowan's government?

dvpower

touts wrote: »

I never understood why Fine Gael were so proud of having "consequences" for corruption in their party. It's like the farmer being so proud of the new one way locking mechanism he just fitted to the stable door to prevent the horse getting back in but leaves it free to get out.

Having consequences for corruption don't have any preventive effect at all?

Belfast

Good start.
Now how do we get there rest of them to resign?

Sierra Oscar

Belfast wrote: »

Good start.
Now how do we get there rest of the to resign?

Reilly will be next in line, should be gone by Christmas. No Labour junior minister will be able to work with him. The growing budgetary crisis within the HSE will do him no favours either - it will become clearly evident in the run up to budget day that he has managed to let the HSE go bankrupt due to his inaction all year.

Shea O'Meara

dvpower wrote: »

Nobody forced her to resign - she made that decision herself.

She lost one battle (I think she was right btw and Reilly was wrong) and decided to throw her toys out of the pram - she couldn't even get the backing of her own party. She wouldn't have lasted the full term.

I think that's over simplifying the issue. Standing up against possible corruption which nobody in either party seems in too much of a hurry to investigate is a damn good reason to take a stand. What other option had she? Don't know her, but in this instance it was more of a draw the line protest than a tantrum to be fair.

Conmaicne Mara

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Can't Martin, O Dea etc make the same argument for why they remained part of Cowan's government?

I wouldn't have thought so, that Govt was openly disintegrating, this one isn't.

Shea O'Meara

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Reilly will be next in line, should be gone by Christmas. No Labour junior minister will be able to work with him. The growing budgetary crisis within the HSE will do him no favours either - it will become clearly evident in the run up to budget day that he has managed to let the HSE go bankrupt due to his inaction all year.

It's like the good old FFail days again, the guy will need be caught eating babies on live television before Kenny gets rid. Labour need re-grow a pair.

ednwireland

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Reilly will be next in line, should be gone by Christmas. No Labour junior minister will be able to work with him. The growing budgetary crisis within the HSE will do him no favours either - it will become clearly evident in the run up to budget day that he has managed to let the HSE go bankrupt due to his inaction all year.

guarantee he wont take the blame, he'll just blame hospitals/hse for overuns and not tha fact that serviices are been centralized without the funding/organization to support extra patients or that he needs to figure out what is spent where and work out what can be cut / reformed with as little effect on front line services as possibe, if that means counting paperclips so be it.

recipio

I'd say most people outside the pale won't give a toss.
Resigning over a list of ( possible ) Primary care centres when injured children are being turned away from A/E units. ? Give me a break.

Bannasidhe

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I wouldn't have thought so, that Govt was openly disintegrating, this one isn't.

Was it?
Isn't it?

Sierra Oscar

ednwireland wrote: »

guarantee he wont take the blame, he'll just blame hospitals/hse for overuns and not tha fact that serviices are been centralized without the funding/organization to support extra patients or that he needs to figure out what is spent where and work out what can be cut / reformed with as little effect on front line services as possibe, if that means counting paperclips so be it.

Agreed, he will try and pass the buck for as long as is possible - and every time he does so he sacks (or forces the resignation of someone) within the HSE in the process. However it will only be a matter of time before people start to realise that it is Reilly himself who is the problem, and not those who he is interacting with. This week is a good example of that, we have seen Shorthall having to vacate her position because it is impossible to work with Reilly. Only a mere few weeks ago Cathal Magee also stepped down for similar reasons - although Reilly continues to pass the buck and deny any wrong doing on his behalf.

When you couple the above with the disastrous finances within the HSE alongside his own personal financial situation (which we have not heard the end of!) it spells a rough ride ahead for Reilly. It will not be all that long before he will be too much baggage for Kenny to carry.

recipio wrote: »

Resigning over a list of ( possible ) Primary care centres when injured children are being turned away from A/E units. ? Give me a break.

If he is to resign it will not be as a result of one minor discrepancy - rather it will be due to his litany of failures within the HSE, his inability to work with others alongside his own dubious financial position. He is a walking disaster for the coalition.

recipio

If he is to resign it will not be as a result of one minor discrepancy - rather it will be due to his litany of failures within the HSE, his inability to work with others alongside his own dubious financial position. He is a walking disaster for the coalition.[/QUOTE]

Eh........... I meant Roisin Shorthall resigning. I'm afraid this coalition is drifting away from the people it serves without knowing it. Its time for a radical overhaul but no one has the guts to do it.

hallelujajordan

Skrynesaver wrote: »

Is anybody else finding it harder to spot the difference between FG and FF as time goes on? .

Was there ever a difference ? I have always felt that politically FF and FG were closer to each other than any other two parties in Ireland. . Ever since the decline of the PDs the country has been run by coalitions who are too far apart politically to be effective .. Is it not time for a FF-FG coalition and for the country to have a clear choice between left and centre-right ?

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

If he is to resign it will not be as a result of one minor discrepancy - rather it will be due to his litany of failures within the HSE, his inability to work with others alongside his own dubious financial position. He is a walking disaster for the coalition.

Reilly secured his long term future during the 2010 FG leadership heave when he stood by Enda. . Kenny will never ask him to resign and unfortunately Reilly is too arrogant to recognise himself that he should go . .

I honestly think Enda would allow the government to collapse before he asks Reilly to stand down ..

Sierra Oscar

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Reilly secured his long term future during the 2010 FG leadership heave when he stood by Enda. . Kenny will never ask him to resign and unfortunately Reilly is too arrogant to recognise himself that he should go . .

I honestly think Enda would allow the government to collapse before he asks Reilly to stand down ..

There will come a time when having Reilly in cabinet will be a threat to the Kenny's leadership, and when that day comes he will drop him like a stone to save his own skin.

dvpower

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

I think that's over simplifying the issue. Standing up against possible corruption which nobody in either party seems in too much of a hurry to investigate is a damn good reason to take a stand. What other option had she? Don't know her, but in this instance it was more of a draw the line protest than a tantrum to be fair.

I think that's over egging it.
If she resigned shouting about corruption from the rooftops I'd buy it, but she didn't and she won't.

hallelujajordan

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

There will come a time when having Reilly in cabinet will be a threat to the Kenny's leadership, and when that day comes he will drop him like a stone to save his own skin.

If Kenny loses Reilly, then he will already have lost his leadership . .

I wonder what the odds are on Richard Bruton being the next Taoiseach ?

edanto

recipio wrote: »

I'd say most people outside the pale won't give a toss.
Resigning over a list of ( possible ) Primary care centres when injured children are being turned away from A/E units. ? Give me a break.

You've missed the point spectacularly.

A good number of the cases that present at an A&E can be dealt with at a primary care centre.

So, a fair ranking of the places that really needed a primary care centre is very important when it comes to relieving pressure from A&Es.

And more importantly, if we see this type of parish pump politics from Reilly in this instance (where we happen to have the ranking list - that never happens), where else have his self-interested fingers been poking?

The man has to go.

Hotblack Desiato

recipio wrote: »

I'd say most people outside the pale won't give a toss.
Resigning over a list of ( possible ) Primary care centres when injured children are being turned away from A/E units. ? Give me a break.

Right, because inside 'the Pale' we have gold plated care, and five second waiting lists.
I'm thoroughly sick of this sort of nonsense, attempting to turn every issue into Dublin vs the rest.
Does Tallaght hospital ring any bells with you?

Serious risks remain at Tallaght hospital - HIQA

HIQA's Tallaght Hospital report critical of State and former hospital board

Tallaght Hospital confirms bed closures

for starters.

Wider Road

Vinny has O'Reilly on his show tonight!
Should be interesting.

Hotblack Desiato

First ministerial resignation live on TV???











(hardly)

Hotblack Desiato

edanto wrote: »

(where we happen to have the ranking list - that never happens)

Selective leaking FTW.

Conmaicne Mara

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Was it?
Isn't it?

:rolleyes: meaning it's not that long ago, you should remember.
:rolleyes: meaning, have you a crystal ball?

Wider Road

Wider Road wrote: »

Vinny has O'Reilly on his show tonight!
Should be interesting.

I've seen an ad for the V Browne show & no mention of Reilly being on it! Sorry in advance but I got a text telling me he'd be on Vincents show at 11.

Laminations

James Reilly gave his explanation to the Dail last night about adding primary care centres to Shortall's list. Basically saying that her criteria were different from an earlier set and triple weighted the social deprivation criterion meaning some sites were bumped off the list. But

This is not borne out, however, by documents obtained by The Irish Times under Freedom of Information legislation last week. They show that Balbriggan ranked 44th and Swords 127th in a draft list compiled last June – before Ms Shortall ordered officials to increase the weighting attached to deprivation.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0928/1224324536458.html

On radio this morning it was suggested that Reilly was confusing lists or that he meant to be referring to a HSE list that was drawn up in 2007 that nobody has seen yet. He needs to clarify his reasoning and ministers shouldn't be jumping in behind him until he does.

Whatever about his personality issues and clashes with his juniors, Reilly has expertise in the area and I think he can make in roads into health reform and universal care - given time. Shortalls resignation and Cathal Magees leaving the HSE are very different events. But while personality clashes are minor, stroke politics is not something to be ignored for the sake of expertise or progress.

edanto

That sounds like he lied to, or certainly misled, the Dáil. Doesn't he win a permanent pension for that? Oh, wait, he's already got one.

OMD

Why would Reilly want a GP practice in his area to benefit. Voters wouldn't care too much at not having a primary care centre (they are a load of nonsense really, but that is a separate issue). However, if a primary care centre was opened then that would be in competition with Reillys practice which would loose business.

Shorthall appears to have made a bit of an arse of deciding on the best areas. All she did was look at the most deprived areas. She doesn't seem to have used any thought as to how the centres would be rolled out and how they could improve healthcare. It sounds like a civil servant told her what to put in the report as her report has HSE/Health Board incompetence all over it. Producing reports that cannot be implemented.

We should be glad she is gone.

dvpower

OMD wrote: »

Voters wouldn't care too much at not having a primary care centre.

I'm a voter and I do care.

If I perceive that my area is getting screwed out of a Primary Care centre that it would otherwise have got, I care even more.

edanto

I wonder which areas did lose primary care centres because of this. Which areas got bumped off the list?

OMD

dvpower wrote: »

I'm a voter and I do care.

If I perceive that my area is getting screwed out of a Primary Care centre that it would otherwise have got, I care even more.

Really. So if you don't have a primary care centre that you can go to by the next election it will influence your vote? Fair enough. How did that effect your vote in the last election?

Anyway my point was not about being "screwed out of a primary care centre". It was the opposite. If your area got the promise of a primary care centre would that make you more likely to vote FG or Labour in the next election? This is the allegation that Reilly was looking after his own voters. I would be surprised if many people were so swayed. They offer very little except to the GPs working in them as they get shiny new premises and pay almost nothing/ actually nothing for them. Reilly is also trying to change this and make GPs pay more. Shorthalls plan would have made it easier for GPs to get away with paying very little.

dvpower

OMD wrote: »

Really. So if you don't have a primary care centre that you can go to by the next election it will influence your vote? Fair enough. How did that effect your vote in the last election?

I voted for a party that promised health reform, including a promise to build a network of Primary Care centres.

OMD wrote: »

Anyway my point was not about being "screwed out of a primary care centre". It was the opposite. If your area got the promise of a primary care centre would that make you more likely to vote FG or Labour in the next election?

It would be an important factor, yes. But only if I could trust the promise - for example if my area was earmarked for a centre using some kind of objective criteria and I didn't think it would be knocked off the list on the whim of a minister.

rockclover1

My view is that roisin shorthall really shot herself in the foot here,asking to resign then without adequate discussion with her superior eamon gilmore decides to resign fully,and while he was in new york on business!hardly appropriate,very rash decison making i would say,its a ridiculous move from what could have been a person that could have changed things for the better..very foolish on her part

Bannasidhe

rockclover1 wrote: »

My view is that roisin shorthall really shot herself in the foot here,asking to resign then without adequate discussion with her superior rabbitte decides to resign fully,and while he was in new york on business!hardly appropriate,very rash decison making i would say,its a ridiculous move from what could have been a person that could have changed things for the better..very foolish on her part

Gilmore is the leader of the Labour Party not Pat Rabbitte and it was Gilmore who was in NY not Rabbitte.
Your 'view' is somewhat undermined when you can't get even basic facts corrects.

OMD

dvpower wrote: »

I voted for a party that promised health reform, including a promise to build a network of Primary Care centres.

The promise still stands. They have added extra to the original list, so if primary care centres is your thing you get even more.

dvpower wrote: »

It would be an important factor, yes. But only if I could trust the promise - for example if my area was earmarked for a centre using some kind of objective criteria and I didn't think it would be knocked off the list on the whim of a minister.

Other places were not knocked off.
Shorthall made a list of deprived areas in Ireland. Pretty pointless list but she felt that was a good job. As I said this is typical HSE thinking. No actual thought of "how can we deliver" . Shorthalls list includes areas that would never get a primary care centre. Fine they are now on a list. The people get a promise of a centre but that promise can never be realised. The land is not available and or the doctors are not available. I am astounded at the easy ride she is getting over this.

OMD

Shorthall was on radio this morning about this. She says Reilly gave her 15 reasons why her list needed to be changed. One thing he told her was that there should be no new public servants employed. GPs using the centres, and getting private income, by using public facilities should be expected to contribute more and to contribute to staff costs according to Reilly. Shorthall could not go for this as, according to her people had been given the expectation of getting public sector jobs. I mean FFS, what planet is this woman on? The last thing this health service needs is more public servants especially if employing these people will help increase the income of GPs. I mean it's only public money. Who cares if it is wasted?

expectationlost

the point of this list was areas that needed a government boost, and that other areas would have market demanded centres

any sign of the list from 2007 with swords and balbriggan near the top, nope.

rockclover1

Gilmore is the leader of the Labour Party not Pat Rabbitte and it was Gilmore who was in NY not Rabbitte.
Your 'view' is somewhat undermined when you can't get even basic facts corrects.

NO.It doesnt undermine what i said,it was a small typo,get over it..

jumpguy

OMD wrote: »

Why would Reilly want a GP practice in his area to benefit. Voters wouldn't care too much at not having a primary care centre (they are a load of nonsense really, but that is a separate issue). However, if a primary care centre was opened then that would be in competition with Reillys practice which would loose business.

Shorthall appears to have made a bit of an arse of deciding on the best areas. All she did was look at the most deprived areas. She doesn't seem to have used any thought as to how the centres would be rolled out and how they could improve healthcare. It sounds like a civil servant told her what to put in the report as her report has HSE/Health Board incompetence all over it. Producing reports that cannot be implemented.

We should be glad she is gone.

She commissioned a report to look for the areas most in need of a PCC. Then she went about actually trying to implement a report, which, god knows, is something many a previous government haven't bothered doing.

"All she did was look at the most deprived areas." Like, really, what else does one look for when allocating public health resources? You look at who needs it most. Rolling out the centres is an issue you deal with when you know where they're be rolled out, you don't just roll them out where it's easiest for the sake of it.

James Reilly is doing a terrible job as Minister of Health, and he must be one of the most disappointing cabinet ministers so far. MoH is always a losing position in my opinion, especially in a government with a Labour party in it - since you can't touch pay, you're just expected to do more with less. But he's taking all the soft options and for some reason just seems reluctant to go after the obvious drugs savings to be made. I wonder if there are any vested interests.