Off The Ball Official Thread <Mod Note - Post #1, #533, #6651>

Tell me how

Jayesdiem wrote: »

Who has died from doping? I can’t think of a single person and, if I could, how that could be proved. There is no evidence that doping causes death.

Doping Deaths

Between 1987, shortly after athletes are believed to have begun using EPO, and 1990, 20 young Belgian and Dutch cyclists died.

One of them was Johannes Draaijer, a 27-year-old racer from the Netherlands who finished 20th in the 1989 Tour de France. In February 1990 he died in his sleep of a heart blockage a few days after completing a race in Italy. An autopsy did not specify the cause of death – he had been passed fit to ride by a doctor – but in a television interview afterwards, his widow said she hoped his fate would serve as a warning to other athletes who take the drug.

Between 1989 and 1992, seven young Swedish orienteering enthusiasts died mysteriously and there was another cluster of cyclist deaths in 2003-4, when eight aged under 35 died.

Jayesdiem

generalgerry wrote: »

I think it's important to remember the context of this though. Kimmage has long had a bee in his bonnet about this "omerta" around the issue of drugs in rugby, and failure of anybody in the IRFU to at least acknowledge that there may be some people who are using performance enhancing drugs. I'm also conscious of the podcast where the incredibly smug Luke Fitzgerald, who seemed to be the self appointed representative of the rugby brethren, hit back at Kimmage and called HIM a drug cheat (for the few times that the used drugs in a few cycling races). So I'd say when Kimmage read Heaslip's book and found out that he had failed a drugs test, he must have thought that all his Christmases had come at once. And whether his motives are professional or personal, it is up to Jamie Heaslip to clear up any ambiguities that remain after his telling of the story.

Have to say, it was hugely naive of Heaslip to include the story in his book and not have all of the answers ready for the questions that would inevitably follow. He knows that Kimmage has had it in for rugby players, and it would have been an absolute certainly that he was going to jump on the story as soon as it was published. He can't just bury his head in the sand and hope that Kimmage will go away, because we all know for sure that he won't.

Heaslip has to clear up nothing for nobody. He CAN bury his head in the sand and I would encourage him to do so. Paul Kimmage is not WADA, USADA etc and Heaslip doesn’t have to give him the time of day. Heaslip’s crime is naively stating that rugby is clean. It probably isn’t, but few people care about that. It’s a tumbleweed issue for all but the most pious. Face to face, I’ve never met a single person -not one- who gives a sh1t about any of this. In fact many people get a kick out of guessing who’s on and who’s not. They just want to watch their sport in peace. Players’ bodies are their own and they know the score if they get caught: two to four years on the sideline. What the obnoxious Kimmage has to do with that, I just don’t know......

Jayesdiem

Tell me how wrote: »

Doping Deaths

Are you serious? Did you read the bit where it said an autopsy did not determine the cause of death? Yet you have concluded that doping was the cause. There are no documented cases of doping related deaths because it can’t and hasn’t been proven. People who died while doping does not count. People who don’t dope die every day for a multitude of reasons.

Jayesdiem

Tell me how wrote: »

Doping Deaths

While we are on it, here’s some actual evidence for you, rather than that that came from a agenda-seeking newspaper: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=doping+deaths&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3DdDz41Ts6ECMJ

Note in these cases of 24 dead bodybuilders, 23 had taken psychostimulants and had hypertrophied hearts, not unlike those seen in runners, whether dopers or non-dopers. Murder and suicide also accounted for one third of deaths. The causal relationship between suicide and a body builder suffering from body dysmorphia and subsequent suicide is a more plausible line of thinking.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&amp;as_sdt=0,5&amp;q=doping+deaths&amp;btnG=#d=gs_qabs&amp;u=#p=s4MBw8Rke7kJ

Tell me how

Jayesdiem wrote: »

Are you serious? Did you read the bit where it said an autopsy did not determine the cause of death? Yet you have concluded that doping was the cause. There are no documented cases of doping related deaths because it can’t and hasn’t been proven. People who died while doping does not count. People who don’t dope die every day for a multitude of reasons.

Did you read the rest of it? Clusters of deaths amongst groups in which doping had recently become common place.
Have you read any books on doping in cycling including the reports of cyclists wearing heart rate monitors to warn them if their hearts have slowed down too much and then getting on to stationary bikes to raise their heart rate and thin out their blood.

If you want to ignore a link between this practice and deaths associated with cardio failure amongst what should ordinarily be supremely fit athletes, then you do that.

An editorial in a publication relating to Haematology are convinced there is a link.

In endurance sports, such as road cycling, there has been evidence of injury and death from doping.

Beechwoodspark

The one thing about kimmage

The man is extremely determined and persistent

Heaslip can’t really just “hope this goes away”

Solicitors letters in post to kimmage next ?

Tell me how

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

The one thing about kimmage

The man is extremely determined and persistent

Heaslip can’t really just “hope this goes away”

Solicitors letters in post to kimmage next ?

In Heaslip's favour is the ABC affiliation with rugby and I expect some comments to Independent management about the risk of alienating those who buy advertising.

Jayesdiem

Tell me how wrote: »

Did you read the rest of it? Clusters of deaths amongst groups in which doping had recently become common place.
Have you read any books on doping in cycling including the reports of cyclists wearing heart rate monitors to warn them if their hearts have slowed down too much and then getting on to stationary bikes to raise their heart rate and thin out their blood.

If you want to ignore a link between this practice and deaths associated with cardio failure amongst what should ordinarily be supremely fit athletes, then you do that.

An editorial in a publication relating to Haematology are convinced there is a link.

I had a whole answer written that disappeared with a dropped internet line. The gist: genetics, training and doping all play a role in low blood pressure and heart rate in cyclists. Do drugs have no effect? Almost certainly not. Do they kill people? Not on their own (PEDs that is).

Tell me how

Jayesdiem wrote: »

I had a whole answer written that disappeared with a dropped internet line. The gist: genetics, training and doping all play a role in low blood pressure and heart rate in cyclists. Do drugs have no effect? Almost certainly not. Do they kill people? Not on their own (PEDs that is).

I think the numbers of endurance athletes who died during periods where EPO use was known to be rampant is in of itself a very strong indicator of a link.

Also, there are not stories of regular deaths of endurance athletes (or other athletes) in similar numbers which have been said to be linked to genetics and or training.

You might be interested in the career of Riccardo Ricco.
He was ejected from the 2008 Tour de France for Doping violations and returned to compete again before drawing attention to the fact that he was once again doping.

n 6 February 2011 Riccò was admitted to a hospital in critical condition, with sepsis and kidney failure, allegedly due to a blood transfusion he performed on himself with 25-day-old blood. Riccò admitted he had performed the transfusion to the doctor treating him in the presence of his girlfriend Vania Rossi. The doctor treating him reported this information to authorities leading to an investigation being opened against the professional cyclist by police and the Italian Olympic committee (CONI).[22] He was well enough to be released from hospital within two weeks, and was sacked by his team Vacansoleil–DCM.[23] Riccò later denied blood doping, but also stated that he was finished with the sport

Now, even though Ricco nearly died through how he managed the self-administered transfusion, you might argue that had he done so, it would not have been as a result of doping. I disagree.

Jayesdiem

I’m not disputing any of that, you’ve clearly come up with some facts. What you, or anyone else, can’t do is uncouple the potential effects of PEDs from the coexisting punishment cyclists put their bodies through during their careers. What role does that play? WWE wrestlers is another example. Traditionally they have taken steroids. Alongside that they have:

-Taken repeated blows to the head
-Travelled 300 days a year
-Taken cocktails of illicit street drugs with god knows what in them
-Barely ever see their families
-Drank alcohol on a regular basis

Now, which of the above do you think is more likely to kill a man over time, or maybe a combination of those will do it?

Then take the likes of Louis Symmons. He’s been on testosterone non stop for the best part of four decades. Same with Arnold Schwarzenegger. 73 year old Svylvester Stallone does not maintain that physique with protein shakes. Christ, testosterone itself is a widely available drug available on prescription!

In my opinion, all of the above takes Kimmages “I’m worried for their health” argument off the table. If that’s his gig, campaign for better work conditions for wrestlers or for rugby players HIA protocols.

ButtersSuki

Tell me how wrote: »

I admire Kimmage greatly for his stance on doping. If you look behind the scenes at the number of players and athletes who have died or suffered health concerns as a result of doping then you don't even need to think about the 'cheating' element to be concerned.

If we didn't have Kimmage trying to shine a light on this, the fan base would be even less aware and so their ignorance could be seen as tacit approval.

I wish we had more journalists like him who weren't afraid to ask the awkward questions, I had high hopes for McKenna but unfortunately I think he is motivated now by being negative. There's a grain of truth in his stories which need to be considered, but they are completely overwhelmed by rhetoric and a righteous attitude at the moment.

Shockingly I find myself agreeing with TMH for once. :pac::rolleyes:

Open declaration; I have a degree in Sports Science and have played my own sport at International level. I admire Kimmage enormously. The work he (and David Walsh) did in exposing (amongst others) Lance Armstrong at enormous cost to both is to be welcomed, not derided. No one could say he's chosen an easy path, it would be much easier to write gushing puff pieces that have become almost the norm for many of the Sunday papers. Is his style irritating to some? Undoubtedly. But we need more of this type of journalism, not less.

What I find very strange about the Heaslip revelation is why Matt Cooper didn't recongise the significance of it and fully investigate this incident (factually) before commiting this to paper. I'd lay a lot of the blame at his door for this exploding (relatively) like it has. I'm shocked he didn't tbh.

On McKenna, likewise, I had high hopes for him, but his style is quite off-putting for the casual fan I'd imagine. I agree there's an element of truth in his stories, but he could perhaps tell the tale a little better.

Beechwoodspark

Cooper prob gave him the soft soap shuffle. Cooper is on course to make royalties for the book he’s hardly going to start a serious investigation into his “prize goose”

Kimmage and drico comes to mind....

ButtersSuki

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Cooper prob gave him the soft soap shuffle. Cooper is on course to make royalties for the book he’s hardly going to start a serious investigation into his “prize goose”

Kimmage and drico comes to mind....

I get where you're coming from but I do think Cooper has a duty of care (of sorts) to Heaslip on this. I'd like to think he's not cynical enough to allow this to come to light like it has for the sake of some extra publicity around the book, but maybe I'm wrong?

I think he should either have quizzed Heaslip fully (and sought back up on Heaslip's version, plus the Sports Council's version) on the matter, or buried it. To allow it to go to print with shall we say "numerous inconsistencies" is I'd argue somewhat negligent, if not unprofessional. If a source came to Cooper with any other story he'd ask for evidence of some sort, yet strangely seems to have taken one person's word here as gospel.

Beechwoodspark

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Cooper prob gave him the soft soap shuffle. Cooper is on course to make royalties for the book he’s hardly going to start a serious investigation into his “prize goose”

Kimmage and drico comes to mind....

Very little money to be made from Irish sports books so Cooper wouldn't have made much from it. While Cooper should have been more diligent, whoever published it would have had editors and legal people reading over it and fact checking it. Strange how it made it to print...

BPKS

Deleted User wrote: »

Very little money to be made from Irish sports books so Cooper wouldn't have made much from it. While Cooper should have been more diligent, whoever published it would have had editors and legal people reading over it and fact checking it. Strange how it made it to print...

Usually The Last Word would go after a story like this big time. Kimmage used to be a regular on the Friday sports hour a couple of years back IIRC.

I dont listen to it much anymore but I wonder has it got any coverage?

Or has Matt just decided to censor the story.

Jayesdiem

BPKS wrote: »

Usually The Last Word would go after a story like this big time. Kimmage used to be a regular on the Friday sports hour a couple of years back IIRC.

I dont listen to it much anymore but I wonder has it got any coverage?

Or has Matt just decided to censor the story.

It isn’t a story. Anywhere. It’s Kimmage doing what he does best which is making a big deal out of nothing. Nobody cares about it.

Tell me how

Jayesdiem wrote: »

It isn’t a story. Anywhere. It’s Kimmage doing what he does best which is making a big deal out of nothing. Nobody cares about it.

That's just not true. You are happy with people using drugs in sport, many, if not most people have a problem with that.

If you had a kid, and they showed some promise playing rugby at 16, would you want a coach suggesting they take growth hormone or testosterone boosters to increase their performance even though there will very likely be some unexpected side affects to this?

Did you hear about the athlete who was coached by Alberto Salazar and who must not now take thyroid medication for the rest of their life after being mistreated by the coach. Would you be happy if that was your child?

Beechwoodspark

When you say little or no money in Irish sport books. I presume heaslip would’ve been given a fairly substantial advance for the book? And then he’d pass on a cut of that to cooper?

robo

BPKS wrote: »

Usually The Last Word would go after a story like this big time. Kimmage used to be a regular on the Friday sports hour a couple of years back IIRC.

I dont listen to it much anymore but I wonder has it got any coverage?

Or has Matt just decided to censor the story.

Kimmage used to have the whole hour on a Monday to discuss all the sports news from the weekend & had all his little stories and analogies ready - they really must have fallen out as he is never on now, but he is never on OTB either so is it a Commincorp thingy?

Tell me how

robo wrote: »

Kimmage used to have the whole hour on a Monday to discuss all the sports news from the weekend & had all his little stories and analogies ready - they really must have fallen out as he is never on now, but he is never on OTB either so is it a Commincorp thingy?

If it was, I think we might have heard about it. I don't think he would sit quiet if he was being censored in that way.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was an advertising thing. Lots of heavy hitting advertisers around sport and particularly rugby and I'm sure they wouldn't be too pleased with a negative light being shone on it.

Somewhat similar with Ewan Mackenna who hasn't been near NT since his head to head on OTB with Ruaidhri O'Connor about the Irish rugby team. Mackenna, unlike Kimmage, is very vocal about being alienated.

deisedude

Tell me how wrote: »

If it was, I think we might have heard about it. I don't think he would sit quiet if he was being censored in that way.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was an advertising thing. Lost of heavy hitting advertisers around sport and particularly rugby and I'm sure they wouldn't be too pleased with a negative light being shone on it.

Somewhat similar with Ewan Mackenna who hasn't been near NT since he's head to head on OTB with Ruaidhri O'Connor about the Irish rugby team. Mackenna, unlike Kimmage, is very vocal about being alienated.

To be fair to NewsTalk Mackenna is a libel lawsuit waiting to happen. Likely to talk about rumours he gets in a whatsapp group and present it as fact

Dots1982

deisedude wrote: »

To be fair to NewsTalk Mackenna is a libel lawsuit waiting to happen. Likely to talk about rumours he gets in a whatsapp group and present it as fact

Cant recall him saying anything remotely libelous on air?

deisedude

Dots1982 wrote: »

Cant recall him saying anything remotely libelous on air?

I seem to recall him implying about a year ago on OTBAM that a member of the current Ireland team was on PEDs

CatFromHue

Tell me how wrote: »

Somewhat similar with Ewan Mackenna who hasn't been near NT since his head to head on OTB with Ruaidhri O'Connor about the Irish rugby team. Mackenna, unlike Kimmage, is very vocal about being alienated.

How many times was he on OTB before this?

What topics that he covers have we missed out on?

Tell me how

CatFromHue wrote: »

How many times was he on OTB before this?

What topics that he covers have we missed out on?

I can remember him being on numerous times when he was living in Brazil.

He doesn't cover a particular sport as such but he used to have a good take on topical pieces. Remember him covering the Chapecoense plane crash and also the impact of the World Cup being held in Brazil with White Elephant stadiums.

He was very vocal on twitter and wrote a lot about the Dublin GAA funding which would have been an interesting topic to hear him discuss on OTB.

CatFromHue

He was on a couple of times but I don't remember him being a regular or even on it regularly.

As he's not a specialist in any one subject and doesn't cover the beat, like Dan McDonell or Ruaidhri O'Connor, there's not whole lot that he offers. Other than slagging off rugby which gets old very quickly. Even say with the election of Balsanaro in Brazil OTB had that English lad who lives in Brazil who covered it far better than MacKenna did in his various bits on it.

OTB have covered the funding issue too so it's not like they ignored it.

Tell me how

CatFromHue wrote: »

He was on a couple of times but I don't remember him being a regular or even on it regularly.

As he's not a specialist in any one subject and doesn't cover the beat, like Dan McDonell or Ruaidhri O'Connor, there's not whole lot that he offers. Other than slagging off rugby which gets old very quickly. Even say with the election of Balsanaro in Brazil OTB had that English lad who lives in Brazil who covered it far better than MacKenna did in his various bits on it.

OTB have covered the funding issue too so it's not like they ignored it.

I'm not sure what point you are making, the curious thing about it (for me) was how they stopped having him on after he was so vocal on the rugby team being over-hyped last autumn.

CatFromHue

Oh right, the point I was trying to make is that I didn't think he was on much before that interview so him not being on since isn't something noteworthy.

Also I don't see much reason to have him on since that interview as what ever he does cover is covered better by others.

styron

CatFromHue wrote: »

He was on a couple of times but I don't remember him being a regular or even on it regularly.

As he's not a specialist in any one subject and doesn't cover the beat, like Dan McDonell or Ruaidhri O'Connor, there's not whole lot that he offers. Other than slagging off rugby which gets old very quickly. Even say with the election of Balsanaro in Brazil OTB had that English lad who lives in Brazil who covered it far better than MacKenna did in his various bits on it.

OTB have covered the funding issue too so it's not like they ignored it.

You nicely dismantled a ludicrous fabrication of his on rugby finance bias at the Tribune, that those in the studio should have picked up on. ( ... four years ago!, time flies)

Tell me how

styron wrote: »

You nicely dismantled a ludicrous fabrication of his on rugby finance bias at the Tribune, that those in the studio should have picked up on. ( ... four years ago!, time flies)

I thought MacKenna's argument on Rugby bias related to Neil Francis and his wife being sent to that 2007 World Cup because she actually typed his copy for him to fax it back and at the same time, the paper was struggling financially.

Tell me how

CatFromHue wrote: »

Oh right, the point I was trying to make is that I didn't think he was on much before that interview so him not being on since isn't something noteworthy.

Also I don't see much reason to have him on since that interview as what ever he does cover is covered better by others.

Well, I think, given his stance on the rugby and how people reacted to it, he would have been in pole position to discuss the actual performance in the world cup and how we allow ourselves to fall in to a trap of blind confidence time and again.
But, partly because of how he would really rub it in that he was right and also because no one really wants to hear the players and management team being ridiculed, he didn't get the opportunity to.

Also, just because something is covered by others, does not mean it is covered in the same way.

CatFromHue

His stance on rugby is that he hates, which isn't a great starting point for a good discussion.

Actually going into this World Cup the team was playing well so all the hype from last November was well and truly gone. There was no blind confidence.

Depends on how you mean by being ridiculed? Calling them losers and other personal insults I've no time for, actually discussing their abilities and how they performed was covered by others on the show.

Tell me how

CatFromHue wrote: »

His stance on rugby is that he hates, which isn't a great starting point for a good discussion.

Actually going into this World Cup the team was playing well so all the hype from last November was well and truly gone. There was no blind confidence.

Depends on how you mean by being ridiculed? Calling them losers and other personal insults I've no time for, actually discussing their abilities and how they performed was covered by others on the show.

I agree with not ridiculing players/managers but I think some do fall on the side of not calling out poor performances when they are happening in front of everyone.

I've said before I think Mackenna has a valid source point on a lot of his arguments but he no longer defends them well. I've also said I think that he is now talking himself out of work/money with his attitude which seems like a very naive thing to do for a journalist.

(BTW Have you a typo in your post? I'm not sure it can be said the team was playing well going in to the WC. Poor 6 nations, hiding by England in warm up was not playing well.)

Jayesdiem

Tell me how wrote: »

That's just not true. You are happy with people using drugs in sport, many, if not most people have a problem with that.

If you had a kid, and they showed some promise playing rugby at 16, would you want a coach suggesting they take growth hormone or testosterone boosters to increase their performance even though there will very likely be some unexpected side affects to this?

Did you hear about the athlete who was coached by Alberto Salazar and who must not now take thyroid medication for the rest of their life after being mistreated by the coach. Would you be happy if that was your child?

No I wouldn’t agree with any of that. But I do believe in personal agency and that PEDs are not the horror they are made out to be. Rather than go after drug users, why doesn’t Kimmage expose child abusers in sport? At least then his outrage could be justified. He’s just.so.ANGRY at something that, at most, we as a public just aren’t bothered about.

As for Ewan McKenna, he’s a bigot. A sports sociologist, not a sports journalist.

Tell me how

Jayesdiem wrote: »

No I wouldn’t agree with any of that. But I do believe in personal agency and that PEDs are not the horror they are made out to be. Rather than go after drug users, why doesn’t Kimmage expose child abusers in sport? At least then his outrage could be justified. He’s just.so.ANGRY at something that, at most, we as a public just aren’t bothered about.

As for Ewan McKenna, he’s a bigot. A sports sociologist, not a sports journalist.

He wrote in depth articles, including follow up pieces, on the treatment of minors in Athenry GAA Club and also a Clare soccer club in the last 18 months or so.
There are many sports journalists out there, Kimmage shouldn't be the only one having to write the difficult pieces.

You and I are on different pages in terms of PED, I think Kimmage is to be applauded for his continued efforts in highlighting it. My issue is that if it is accepted at any level then the boundary will always be pushed as some seek an extra advantage thus meaning people (and children) will be put in harms way.

CatFromHue

Tell me how wrote: »

I agree with not ridiculing players/managers but I think some do fall on the side of not calling out poor performances when they are happening in front of everyone.

I've said before I think Mackenna has a valid source point on a lot of his arguments but he no longer defends them well. I've also said I think that he is now talking himself out of work/money with his attitude which seems like a very naive thing to do for a journalist.

(BTW Have you a typo in your post? I'm not sure it can be said the team was playing well going in to the WC. Poor 6 nations, hiding by England in warm up was not playing well.)

Yeah that was a typo, we weren't playing well. No one was saying we were though and there was almost panic in the media during the warm up games for the World Cup.

There are some who don't call out stuff but plenty others who do. After the Japan game the papers were full of articles giving out about the team.

He has a point in some of his articles but he goes so far overboard with stuff that when you check it isn't either true or not how he's portraying it that the whole article falls down.

Beechwoodspark

Although I’d have issues with both of them on various opinions they have I find both mckenna and kimmage “good listening”. They would enhance the OTB offer.

generalgerry

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Although I’d have issues with both of them on various opinions they have I find both mckenna and kimmage “good listening”. They would enhance the OTB offer.

Yeah I'd be the same. Far too often on the airwaves there is nothing but group think, and everybody slapping each other on the back. At least these two have an opinion that you know is what they believe, and not something that they are saying to make their employers or sponsors happy.

robo

generalgerry wrote: »

Yeah I'd be the same. Far too often on the airwaves there is nothing but group think, and everybody slapping each other on the back. At least these two have an opinion that you know is what they believe, and not something that they are saying to make their employers or sponsors happy.

I'd agree on that somewhat sometimes but when OTB have Kenny Cunningham on, he is not just agreeing with everyone, he gives good insights and will say when he thinks that something is stupid. I do like him but he has been missing from their broadcasts lately.

Kimmage can come across as sanctimonious but he probes at things that others don't like to and does his homework.
McKenna - he can sometimes be his own worst enemy in his delivery but he is not afraid to say what others might be thinking or not thinking.

Eire-Dearg

Is the Off The Ball Open in Abu Dhabi still going ahead? Seems to have gone silent after all the ads and mentions online.

Say Your Number

F-bomb from Giles :eek:

Tell me how

Eire-Dearg wrote: »

Is the Off The Ball Open in Abu Dhabi still going ahead? Seems to have gone silent after all the ads and mentions online.

Think it's not happening.
Someone mentioned here not so long ago that it was removed from the travel companies website.

Eire-Dearg

Tell me how wrote: »

Think it's not happening.
Someone mentioned here not so long ago that it was removed from the travel companies website.

Have they been called out on it? Seemed quite dodgy at the time and I can't imagine there'd have been much if any interest in playing golf in Abu Dhabi with Conor Sketches and Kevin Kilbane.

dr.kenneth noisewater

Seemed a crazy idea to me at the start, real Celtic tiger idea with matching prices. Why not do one in Spain/Portugal first and see how it goes before organising a junket out to Abu Dabai

Tell me how

Eire-Dearg wrote: »

Have they been called out on it? Seemed quite dodgy at the time and I can't imagine there'd have been much if any interest in playing golf in Abu Dhabi with Conor Sketches and Kevin Kilbane.

What do you mean called out on it?

They tried to make money with an I'll conceived plan, and it seems it was rejected by the potential customers. That's the best type of calling out.
Cant fault them for trying to make money, but they learnt some sort of a lesson there.

JoeA3

Say Your Number wrote: »

F-bomb from Giles :eek:

Heard that on the podcast today. Ooops, I knew the host would sh1t his kacks and apologise to the offended. Poor John.

CatFromHue

no paper review today, looks like that slot might be gone now as there was none last week either.

robo

CatFromHue wrote: »

no paper review today, looks like that slot might be gone now as there was none last week either.

That's a shame if it is gone - or is it a case they don't have room for it with the premiership live games? Do they now broadcast 2 games on a Sunday? Even before when they ran out of time for the Newspaper review, they'd podcast it & also have it on their live YouTube channel.

rrs

Joe Molloy hasn't been on off the ball in a while. On holidays?

dr.kenneth noisewater

rrs wrote:

Joe Molloy hasn't been on off the ball in a while. On holidays?

Honeymoon I think they said one evening, hopefully the paper review returns when he's back