Off The Ball Official Thread <Mod Note - Post #1, #533, #6651>

gormdubhgorm

RINO87 wrote: »

I am angry Tony

Roddy Collins comment at the end makes it “Well I think he was a bit angry”

Jim Leahy

that Higgins profile is angry

Blanco100

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Most of this is actually already in place, with the national player pathway, regionalised centres, restructuring of underage national leagues, coaching pathways etc. Slag off the FAI all we want, but they actually have a lot of good people working in Abbottstown and over the last few years they have got their house in order in this regard, and the fruits are being seen in some of our underage teams now.

The issue with the international manager, as I see it, is that the last few appointments, pre Kenny, have all been made in spite of all this work that is being done. The international team existed in isolation and they were high profile vanity appointments by Delaney, with Trap, Keane-O'Neill and Mick given the remit of qualifying for major tournaments and nothing else. They played a totally different style of football and there was no sense of a connection with the U21 or other underage teams.

This is why Kenny's appointment is important and why we need to stick with him and back what he is doing. He is moving us away from an era that delivered short term gains but for which there was no vision or plan for football overall in this county. Now we have a plan, and Kenny has been tasked with delivering it. In that sense, he has an opportunity to do so much more than anyone that has come before him in the recent past. That may simply be putting the caveman football of the last 30 years in the past but somebody has to do it and I have huge admiration for the bravery and determination with which he is doing it. It's a bigger picture than the quality of the current players and the results; somebody has to grasp the nettle and do what he is doing sooner rather than later. Time will tell if he is the right man for the job.

First half of that post is excellent.

We need more joined up thinking, the underage style should be an extension of the senior team. Getting former players involved in managing underage teams is a good habit aswell.

I think we should lower expectations for few years and put resources in building from the ground up.

Develop tactics and style that should be natural to our football culture. Courageous, determined, tough. But with the odd maverick street style player encouraged too. We need to move away from relying on UK clubs developing our players.

Sure let the cream go, and start building the leagues rep. Maybe we will see our clubs start selling players to English clubs at 20-23 for decent money even.

Kenny is no genius. Even as a LOI fan I had to laugh at this rep he garnered as a total football promoter. As was said, national team coaches job is to win games with a squad of players he sees for 3/4 days at a time. If he wants to develop players he'd have been better as a technical director or the like.

Rugby and more so GAA will always limit our potential as you have so many potential players wasting their time spreading themselves thin.

Piehead

RINO87 wrote: »

I am angry Tony

What was his beef with Stephen Kenny at the time?

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is one thing seeing the obvious. But it takes a special man to have the charisma, talent, and organisational nous to implement it. It is why Jack Charlton was so successful. Kenny is not that type of man.

Then on top of this you have to have the players of the requisite footballing intelligence and ability, required to implement the managers vision.

Ireland has none of the above, so it looks like 10-15 years of waiting for something to happen.

You're presenting your opinions as definitive facts. Only time will tell if Kenny is the right man and if the players have what it takes to play a different style of football.

Blanco100

Blanco100 wrote: »

First half of that post is excellent.

We need more joined up thinking, the underage style should be an extension of the senior team. Getting former players involved in managing underage teams is a good habit aswell.

I think we should lower expectations for few years and put resources in building from the ground up.

Develop tactics and style that should be natural to our football culture. Courageous, determined, tough. But with the odd maverick street style player encouraged too. We need to move away from relying on UK clubs developing our players.

Sure let the cream go, and start building the leagues rep. Maybe we will see our clubs start selling players to English clubs at 20-23 for decent money even.

Kenny is no genius. Even as a LOI fan I had to laugh at this rep he garnered as a total football promoter. As was said, national team coaches job is to win games with a squad of players he sees for 3/4 days at a time. If he wants to develop players he'd have been better as a technical director or the like.

Rugby and more so GAA will always limit our potential as you have so many potential players wasting their time spreading themselves thin.

I wouldn't say his remit is developing players, but I do think his appointment was important because we needed to change a culture that was starting to set in - the backs to the wall, long ball culture that had become embedded towards the end of the Trap and O'Neill eras and was carried on by Mick to a lesser extent. Defending in two deep banks of four and treating the ball like it is the enemy can yield results - Germany home, Wales away - but ultimately you get found out pretty quickly and it is not sustainable in the long run.

Not saying Kenny is the messiah, but at least we know that he'll try and change the culture here, move us into line with nearly every other international team out there and not make us some outlier, playing a brand of football that is totally out of kilter with our underage teams. I think it will take time but somebody has to do it and there'll be some (lots!) pain along the way. The first few campaigns under Mick were awful as we transitioned away from the Jack era.

BPKS

This is a bullsh1t non-story about Kenny and his motivational video before the England game. Some flakey non-playing member of staff has gone and got offended on him.


Now what a load of BS.


But.......


...............given the stance Ger and his OTB presenters have taken before I am sure they will be calling for him to get sacked and publically flogged.

gormdubhgorm

Deleted User wrote: »

You're presenting your opinions as definitive facts. Only time will tell if Kenny is the right man and if the players have what it takes to play a different style of football.

If anyone is you are weren't you the person who claimed Ireland played 'caveman football' for 30 years? As if it was a fact? It appears to me you just do not like my comments. As this is the second snide comment you have made in succession to me. Following the previous one which said the following:

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you let anyone else know that you've found the answer? It would be a shame to let it go unseen in this dark corner of the internet.

However, rather then comment on the actual substance of my posts and observations - (which seem obvious to me and many others - even as non experts). You seem to continue to want to duck and dive rather than actually address my points. Bolded.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah I was going to like it until I read 'caveman football'.

Plus makes me laugh how some people think short passing is the answer.
Wrong! Penetrative forward passing is the answer (long or short) causing danger to teams.
Not tippy tappy sideways and backwards for the sake of it all the time = no threat. Like Georgia!

One of the best players in the world was involved in a Wales goal against Ireland which was not tippy tappy.

Direct ball in - Bale wins header flicked on and Brooks header goal. Simple and effective. There is not only one way of playing. As long it creates problems for opponents it is effective. No matter what the style.

As other posters have pointed out rightly - International football is about results regardless of the style.

Plus what is concerning now is: (as well as lack of goals which was always an issue)

1) The players lack fight and tempo

2) Team look more likely to conceed because of the above.

3) Team much easier to defend against than any Irish team in my lifetime - because of no penetrative passes - side to side at the back and backwards.

4) No focus on set pieces Ireland's previous strength - or variation - Duffy's head the only answer?

5) Team and players confidence appears to be at an all time low

6) No one knows who Kenny's no1 starting XI is - even Kenny himself

7) Ireland have no creative and confident midfielder who Kenny rates (he does not seem to rate Byrne). Such a midfielder is crucial for Kenny's system

8) Ireland have mostly hardworking central midfielders who lack creativity and Kenny seems to be trying to shoehorn them into a system/style of playing they are unable for. Instead of - playing a system which suits thier strengths

9) Questions why 3-5-2 was never tried? Abundance of centre backs. Plus Stevens/McLean and Doherty/Coleman/Christie could play wing backs. He is mostly wedded to a 4-3-3.

I believe most of the above is fairly self evident. Plus Kenny needs time maybe 2 years team in transition/covid and so on.

But surely the points I raised can't be simply ignored, as there are clearly many issues with the current approach?

Abel Ruiz

BPKS wrote: »

This is a bullsh1t non-story about Kenny and his motivational video before the England game. Some flakey non-playing member of staff has gone and got offended on him.


Now what a load of BS.


But.......


...............given the stance Ger and his OTB presenters have taken before I am sure they will be calling for him to get sacked and publically flogged.

In fairness to the muppet. He didn't say that. He was on the paddypower half hour advocating gambling for his wages. But he said the main issue with Stephen kenny and the Ireland team, is the rat that leaked it to the english media.

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

If anyone is you are weren't you the person who claimed Ireland played 'caveman football' for 30 years? As if it was a fact? It appears to me you just do not like my comments. As this is the second snide comment you have made in succession to me. Following the previous one which said the following:



However, rather then comment on the actual substance of my posts and observations - (which seem obvious to me and many others - even as non experts). You seem to continue to want to duck and dive rather than actually address my points. Bolded.



As other posters have pointed out rightly - International football is about results regardless of the style.

Plus what is concerning now is: (as well as lack of goals which was always an issue)

1) The players lack fight and tempo

2) Team look more likely to conceed because of the above.

3) Team much easier to defend against than any Irish team in my lifetime - because of no penetrative passes - side to side at the back and backwards.

4) No focus on set pieces Ireland's previous strength - or variation - Duffy's head the only answer?

5) Team and players confidence appears to be at an all time low

6) No one knows who Kenny's no1 starting XI is - even Kenny himself

7) Ireland have no creative and confident midfielder who Kenny rates (he does not seem to rate Byrne). Such a midfielder is crucial for Kenny's system

8) Ireland have mostly hardworking central midfielders who lack creativity and Kenny seems to be trying to shoehorn them into a system/style of playing they are unable for. Instead of - playing a system which suits thier strengths

9) Questions why 3-5-2 was never tried? Abundance of centre backs. Plus Stevens/McLean and Doherty/Coleman/Christie could play wing backs. He is mostly wedded to a 4-3-3.

I believe most of the above is fairly self evident. Plus Kenny needs time maybe 2 years team in transition/covid and so on.

But surely the points I raised can't be simply ignored, as there are clearly many issues with the current approach?

The first remark was a bit snide alright so apologies for that. The second one was not intended as being snide at all.

With regard to the "caveman" football comment, the 30 years was a bit of an arbitrary number, wasn't important in the overall context of the post and I was probably mostly talking about the last 12 years but I suppose if you are counting:

90-96: Charlton

2008 to 2018: Trap and then O'Neill

2018-2020: Mick Part 2

I would say I was at the vast majority of the home games and a good few away in that period and we played poor football for the most part. The start of the Trap and O'Neill eras were relatively ok but things went downhill quickly and some of my most depressing experiences as an Ireland fan came during those reigns despite qualifying for the Euros twice and some good results.

Overall, I can see where you are coming from with the points above but I think people need to give the man a break and take the ridiculous circumstances he's had to deal with into account before making definitive judgments. In the only game we had close to a team for, we played well against Slovakia away from home, were the better team and cut them open a few times. Our talent pool is very shallow and when we are missing key players we are going to be poor, but he's not going to throw his plan out the window just to get results in meaningless games.

People seem to think he wants us to play like Barcelona under Pep, but as he proved with the 21s, Kenny is well capable of playing the type of football you are promoting. I think for now he's trying to get the players to take responsibility and to pass under pressure and not allow them the outball of the hoof up the pitch. I'm sure with time the style will mature to reflect what you are suggesting.

Overall, I'm already growing weary of Kenny's detractors. It's like people are waiting for him to fail because he hasn't come the traditional path, as was the case with Kerr. I just hope he gets time to do the job, and as I said if he's not capable of it then he will be found out in the long run.

Did you smash it

We move the ball too slowly through the back to midfield. Slowly hit passes, players taking touches when they need to kill it and move it fast. We also have no good footballing and physical centre forward to take the ball and spread it and worry defenders.

These would always be problems but are huge problems in Kenny’s system.

I think It’s hard to see Kenny make it to 2022 as I don’t think we’ll improve in 2021. The problems are too inherent and insurmountable.

RugbyLover123

Is it not just as simple as we don’t have the players?

Years ago we had a number of players at the top end of the premier league, now we have Doherty and Coleman. Two right backs. With neither guaranteed their position. And you could argue Everton have hardly been top end PL the last few years.

We could have a management trio of Ferguson, Klopp and Guardiola and they’d even struggle to get results out of the current crop.

We can’t compare ourselves to even Wales and Scotland because at least they have a sprinkling of players playing for Juventus, Liverpool, United, Arsenal, Spurs. Which can often be the difference at international level.

Did you smash it

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

Is it not just as simple as we don’t have the players?

Years ago we had a number of players at the top end of the premier league, now we have Doherty and Coleman. Two right backs. With neither guaranteed their position. And you could argue Everton have hardly been top end PL the last few years.

We could have a management trio of Ferguson, Klopp and Guardiola and they’d even struggle to get results out of the current crop.

We can’t compare ourselves to even Wales and Scotland because at least they have a sprinkling of players playing for Juventus, Liverpool, United, Arsenal, Spurs. Which can often be the difference at international level.

It is that simple effectively but OTB and other media outlets have to get clicks and ratings so they form narratives that there are other reasons at play. People buy into these narratives.

Tell me how

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

Is it not just as simple as we don’t have the players?

Years ago we had a number of players at the top end of the premier league, now we have Doherty and Coleman. Two right backs. With neither guaranteed their position. And you could argue Everton have hardly been top end PL the last few years.

We could have a management trio of Ferguson, Klopp and Guardiola and they’d even struggle to get results out of the current crop.

We can’t compare ourselves to even Wales and Scotland because at least they have a sprinkling of players playing for Juventus, Liverpool, United, Arsenal, Spurs. Which can often be the difference at international level.

Think that sums it up.
Unless you have 80% or above of your first choice 11 regularly playing at a high level, you're going to struggle.

Just as an example, in the Irish team which lost to Holland at USA 94, 8 of the 11 starters finished that season in a team in the top 10 in the Premier league.
2 more were in teams in the top 4 in the SPL and the final players team was 16th in the PL.

In comparison, in the Irish team which lost to France at Euro 2016, 6 of the 11 starters were playing in the championship and of those in the EPL, most were in the lower half with Shane Long at Southampton being the highest finisher at number 6.

Focus on Irish grassroots (which others have said is happening) should lead to more players ultimately playing at a higher level and that is more likely to bring success to the senior team than any particular coach, bar alone an anomaly where one coach with a couple of special players on the form of their lives and a favourable draw can enjoy a period of success, but you can't really plan for that.

I might add, I would be much more in favour of this grass roots development rather than chasing players in the EPL squads with Irish heritage and ending up with Grealish and Rice type scenarios.

Did you smash it

Tell me how wrote: »

Think that sums it up.
Unless you have 80% or above of your first choice 11 regularly playing at a high level, you're going to struggle.

Or if you have one absolute stud it can take you to a very high level. See Poland. Their squad is better than ours but not by that much until you get to Lewandowski who basically is a cheat code at international level.

Ireland have no attacking “stud” to build their team around. One individual can make a huge difference at international level.

The future development of Troy Parrott is therefore absolutely huge.

Did you smash it

Did you smash it wrote: »

Or if you have one absolute stud it can take you to a very high level. See Poland. Their squad is better than ours but not by that much until you get to Lewandowski who basically is a cheat code at international level.

Ireland have no attacking “stud” to build their team around. One individual can make a huge difference at international level.

The future development of Troy Parrott is therefore absolutely huge.

Gareth Bale at Wales too. You can build an international team around one superstar.

I'm not sure comparing the '94 and and 2016 squads is relevant. '94 was before the globalisation of football and foreign players arrived in England en masse. Plenty of the guys in the '94 squad and team would be lower end Premier League or championship players now. The number of young Irish guys going over to England has gone through the floor and there are far fewer opportunities for Irish players in general. It's a totally different climate.

gormdubhgorm

Deleted User wrote: »

The first remark was a bit snide alright so apologies for that. The second one was not intended as being snide at all.

With regard to the "caveman" football comment, the 30 years was a bit of an arbitrary number, wasn't important in the overall context of the post and I was probably mostly talking about the last 12 years but I suppose if you are counting:

90-96: Charlton

2008 to 2018: Trap and then O'Neill

2018-2020: Mick Part 2

I would say I was at the vast majority of the home games and a good few away in that period and we played poor football for the most part. The start of the Trap and O'Neill eras were relatively ok but things went downhill quickly and some of my most depressing experiences as an Ireland fan came during those reigns despite qualifying for the Euros twice and some good results.

Overall, I can see where you are coming from with the points above but I think people need to give the man a break and take the ridiculous circumstances he's had to deal with into account before making definitive judgments. In the only game we had close to a team for, we played well against Slovakia away from home, were the better team and cut them open a few times. Our talent pool is very shallow and when we are missing key players we are going to be poor, but he's not going to throw his plan out the window just to get results in meaningless games.

People seem to think he wants us to play like Barcelona under Pep, but as he proved with the 21s, Kenny is well capable of playing the type of football you are promoting. I think for now he's trying to get the players to take responsibility and to pass under pressure and not allow them the outball of the hoof up the pitch. I'm sure with time the style will mature to reflect what you are suggesting.

Overall, I'm already growing weary of Kenny's detractors. It's like people are waiting for him to fail because he hasn't come the traditional path, as was the case with Kerr. I just hope he gets time to do the job, and as I said if he's not capable of it then he will be found out in the long run.

I think what you describe as 'caveman football' shows a lack of knowledge of what was done.

Charlton for instance played football of his time 4-4-2. But was also he was innovative because international football teams did not play direct football. Nor did they 'press'. They all played with playmakers in the 86 WC and Charlton saw Ireland were miles behind teams playing like that. Even with the pool of players they had.
He had to find a way to get results quickly and go direct play it simple with a strategy.
It was not just direct football for the sake of it and lumping it there was a clear strategy to it. Charlton was at pains to explain his strategy time and again and bristled when it was merely referred to as long ball football.

Not only that but Charlton was the first in international football of what now would be called 'gegen pressing'. Charlton often lamented the fact that the Danes won a Euros using this strategy mixed with direct football.

Explained here @15.00

Also explained very well here: @21.34 why it is not 'kick and rush' - also mentions pressing. Plus even mentions how he picked a style that was familiar to Gaelic Football players.

To call what Jack Charlton did 'caveman football' does the great man a disservice, shows a lack of insight, and does a disservice to the players who had success playing under him.

You mention MON, Trap, and Mick second time around.

Mick played a mix of slightly direct and at times attractive football the first time around. With his club teams he was not a lump it long for the sake of it merchant.
Would it not stand to reason that Mick just did not have the same quality of players to work with? In his second spell?
Mick would not have wanted the players to lump it for the sake of it.

MON came from the Clough school of football but was not afraid to go direct when required. Look at his club teams who were successful Celtic and Leicester gives you a great idea how he wanted his teams to play. Fast aggressive football.It seems to me at the start the players implemented a good style and strategy. But in time the players were just incapable of implementing it. Wes Hoolahan was used under MON - he was getting on though and would struggle to play for a few games in succession for the full 90.

Trap it was clear he did not rate Ireland's ability to play possession football by not including Andy Reid / Hoolahan regularly. However he still managed to qualify Ireland for Euro 2012. I would argue that Robbie Keane masked over a lot of the problems Ireland had. As by 2008-2013 28 years of age - 32 years of age Ireland had the last years of Robbie where he went from a force to a fading one.

But Trap was a very successful manager and picked his team as he saw it. A great judge of a player. If he did not think Ireland were good enough to play a more possession based style with a Hoolahan or Reid at the fulcrum you have to ask why.

At the moment Ireland clearly does not have the players to play a possession based football style. I would suggest that when Kenny eventually leaves the job in over two years at least. That he be given a director of football role in the FAI as that would suit him far better. Let him work from the grassroots up.
Something that should have been done with Brian Kerr as well. Always found it mystifying that a man like that of such football knowledge was discarded completely by the FAI.

You mention the Ireland u21's I was at Ireland v Italy u21's when Kenny was manager it was 0-0 attractive at times. But lacked a cutting edge from Ireland. Sound familiar?

https://www.fai.ie/ireland/match/13/2021/2026499

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think what you describe as 'caveman football' shows a lack of knowledge of what was done.

Charlton for instance played football of his time 4-4-2. But was also he was innovative because international football teams did not play direct football. Nor did they 'press'. They all played with playmakers in the 86 WC and Charlton saw Ireland were miles behind teams playing like that. Even with the pool of players they had.
He had to find a way to get results quickly and go direct play it simple with a strategy.
It was not just direct football for the sake of it and lumping it there was a clear strategy to it. Charlton was at pains to explain his strategy time and again and bristled when it was merely referred to as long ball football.

Not only that but Charlton was the first in international football of what now would be called 'gegen pressing'. Charlton often lamented the fact that the Danes won a Euros using this strategy mixed with direct football.

Explained here @15.00

Also explained very well here: @21.34 why it is not 'kick and rush' - also mentions pressing. Plus even mentions how he picked a style that was familiar to Gaelic Football players.

To call what Jack Charlton did 'caveman football' does the great man a disservice, shows a lack of insight, and does a disservice to the players who had success playing under him.

You mention MON, Trap, and Mick second time around.

Mick played a mix of slightly direct and at times attractive football the first time around. With his club teams he was not a lump it long for the sake of it merchant.
Would it not stand to reason that Mick just did not have the same quality of players to work with? In his second spell?
Mick would not have wanted the players to lump it for the sake of it.

MON came from the Clough school of football but was not afraid to go direct when required. Look at his club teams who were successful Celtic and Leicester gives you a great idea how he wanted his teams to play. Fast aggressive football.It seems to me at the start the players implemented a good style and strategy. But in time the players were just incapable of implementing it. Wes Hoolahan was used under MON - he was getting on though and would struggle to play for a few games in succession for the full 90.

Trap it was clear he did not rate Ireland's ability to play possession football by not including Andy Reid / Hoolahan regularly. However he still managed to qualify Ireland for Euro 2012. I would argue that Robbie Keane masked over a lot of the problems Ireland had. As by 2008-2013 28 years of age - 32 years of age Ireland had the last years of Robbie where he went from a force to a fading one.

But Trap was a very successful manager and picked his team as he saw it. A great judge of a player. If he did not think Ireland were good enough to play a more possession based style with a Hoolahan or Reid at the fulcrum you have to ask why.

At the moment Ireland clearly does not have the players to play a possession based football style. I would suggest that when Kenny eventually leaves the job in over two years at least. That he be given a director of football role in the FAI as that would suit him far better. Let him work from the grassroots up.
Something that should have been done with Brian Kerr as well. Always found it mystifying that a man like that of such football knowledge was discarded completely by the FAI.

You mention the Ireland u21's I was at Ireland v Italy u21's when Kenny was manager it was 0-0 attractive at times. But lacked a cutting edge from Ireland. Sound familiar?

https://www.fai.ie/ireland/match/13/2021/2026499

Thanks for engaging and for the detailed response.

I've been going to Ireland games for 25 years and have been to the majority of home games since the mid 90s and plenty of away. Without wanting to sound smart, I know what I saw and don't need a lesson in football or a lesson in revisionism at this stage.

I've played to a good level for many years and am still playing for my club at 40, albeit at a modest level. I've started my coaching badges and coach underage at my club and would like to think I know the game enough and have enough experience to be able to make an informed comment on it. You've gotten stuck on one comment I made.

As I said, thanks for engaging and for taking the time to post the material, nearly all of which I have seen, heard and read before, particularly the stuff about Charlton.

Fingers crossed, we can move on from the current mess and get back to playing at a decent level at international level. I think it's best we just leave it at that.

Wilbury Twist

Joe Molloy is the Pat Kenny of sports broadcasting.

Thelonious Monk

Jasus this Northern Irish golf wan sounds like she went to the G Mac school of elocution

cms88

Talking about GAA All-Stars etc this morning and once more Ger makes a fool of himself becasuse someone dares to say something he doesn't agree with him :rolleyes:

gluppers

Anyone else finding Joe is becoming that bit posher? His pronunciation of 'ball' for starters is sounding like 'baul'. It must be a private school thing

Felexicon

Joe was certainly not loving Richie during the Newsround this evening.

siblers

Felexicon wrote: »

Joe was certainly not loving Richie during the Newsround this evening.

Why so?

Felexicon

Felexicon wrote: »

Joe was certainly not loving Richie during the Newsround this evening.

Richie definitely seems to rub Joe up the wrong way regularly. The fact that he is an insufferable pain in he arse might be the main reason.

Does Joe Molloy actually like sport?

Felexicon

Edz87 wrote: »

Does Joe Molloy actually like sport?

I'd say he loves it yeah. That's why he is so concerned about the direction certain sports e.g rugby are going.

Golf definitely his favourite

LletiRed

John Giles, whats the point anymore? It's like they don't wanna break the news to an old man that he's not a good pundit anymore.

NM: "Coming up, we have John Giles where we'll be discussing Caoimhin Kellehers debut for Liverpool"


NM: "So John, great night for the Irish lad in goals for liverpool, what do you think of him?"

JG: "Haven't seen much of him to tell you the truth Nathan, but he did well. He's a big strong lad and it's nice to see the young lads take their chance

NM: "It must have been a very proud night for him, do you remember your debut?"

And then a whole chat on his debut and his dad going over for it etc.

LletiRed

I like listening to the show with Molloy. Turned over when they talk about womens sports and often when the in depth gaa ones come on. Couldn't be arsed with the small talk about who's the best singer in the Limerick hurling panel. Yawn

Abel Ruiz

LletiRed wrote: »

John Giles, whats the point anymore? It's like they don't wanna break the news to an old man that he's not a good pundit anymore.

You signed up just to abuse Giles.
He is what he is, and he is popular whether you like it or not.
What pundits do you like??? Clown

What is supposed to say about a young goalkeeper with only 3 appearances?

Edz87

Edz87 wrote: »

Does Joe Molloy actually like sport?

I like Joe and think he's a good broadcaster, but you do get the sense that he could take or leave most sport, golf and football (at a stretch) aside.

I also have a feeling he is starting to outgrow OTB and could see him moving on very soon, possibly to something outside of sport.

I think he probably sees how limited and narrow what he is doing at the moment is and I would imagine the TV work he has done has given him a taste for more.

When you see what Mark Horgan from Second Captains has done with the George Gibney series, you can see how far off the mark OTB has fallen. It's all quantity over quality at the moment.

Feenix

Abel Ruiz wrote: »

You signed up just to abuse Giles.
He is what he is, and he is popular whether you like it or not.
What pundits do you like??? Clown

What is supposed to say about a young goalkeeper with only 3 appearances?

I’m not quite sure that is considered abuse really. Directly calling someone a clown for not liking the same football pundit as you is however.

There is literally nothing Giles could have said about him. Going by his track record I doubt he knows his age, where he’s from or that he’s been in the Ireland senior squad for the last year or so. I think the casual sports fan might like listening to him but he offers no insight whatsoever.

Tell me how

There's a nostalgic element to Giles, no doubt, but, he has earned this sentiment towards him through 30 odd years of decent punditry.
There are few pundits who are universally applauded and even Gary Neville who significantly upped the punditry game when he started on Sky has shown himself to be slow to critique his former team mate correctly and the same could be said for several other former Utd players.

I still maintain Giles ability to see the strong foundations players should have (attitude and technique) is still relevant rather than talking dramatically about patchy moments of brilliance or the influence a managers comments in the media the day before a game can have.

gormdubhgorm

Tell me how wrote: »

There's a nostalgic element to Giles, no doubt, but, he has earned this sentiment towards him through 30 odd years of decent punditry.
There are few pundits who are universally applauded and even Gary Neville who significantly upped the punditry game when he started on Sky has shown himself to be slow to critique his former team mate correctly and the same could be said for several other former Utd players.

I still maintain Giles ability to see the strong foundations players should have (attitude and technique) is still relevant rather than talking dramatically about patchy moments of brilliance or the influence a managers comments in the media the day before a game can have.

"Giles ability to see strong foundations players should have attitude and technique" = moral courage, demanding the ball etc etc?

It just ends up seeming like a visitor to a nursing home trying to draw chat out of an elderly relative, which can be long and drawn out. Did you have tea to today? what did you have what was it like in your day? Elderly relative gets names mixed up etc. "Ah he was/is a good lad".

Higgins5473

Tell me how wrote: »

There's a nostalgic element to Giles, no doubt, but, he has earned this sentiment towards him through 30 odd years of decent punditry.
There are few pundits who are universally applauded and even Gary Neville who significantly upped the punditry game when he started on Sky has shown himself to be slow to critique his former team mate correctly and the same could be said for several other former Utd players.

I still maintain Giles ability to see the strong foundations players should have (attitude and technique) is still relevant rather than talking dramatically about patchy moments of brilliance or the influence a managers comments in the media the day before a game can have.

Can you set up a separate “Giles is not past his sell by date pundit and remains an all time great and pundit and is just the best thing ever” thread or just a Giles appreciation thread?

This off the ball thread is just about how **** or good Giles is. Says a lot about the show.

gormdubhgorm

Higgins5473 wrote: »

Says a lot about the show.

I actually accidently clicked the first page of this thread. from 8 years ago. Had it zoomed in (so I did not realise the date) and it was positive comment, followed by glowing comments and joy about the show. I was baffled.

Then I realised what happened, a lot has changed in 8 years!

Felexicon

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I actually accidently clicked the first page of this thread. from 8 years ago. Had it zoomed in (so I did not realise the date) and it was positive comment, followed by glowing comments and joy about the show. I was baffled.

Then I realised what happened, a lot has changed in 8 years!

I think the show has been a victim of it's own success.
There isn't really enough happening in the sporting world to have 2, 2 hour shows 5 days a week and 2 longer format shows at the weekend.
I know they throw in a match commentary at the weekend but its probably not enough.

What they're left doing is filling space with power rankings and pressure rankings along with Monday night rugby, Wednesday night rugby and Rugby AM on a Friday. I love rugby but there is only so much you can talk about the 5 teams that interest people on this island. It's probably why Joe seems so fixated on the dementia case being brought against world rugby, it's just something to break the monotony of the usual "Leinster are class aren't they" discussions.

I used to be an avid listener but now find myself listening to the newsround in the evening while cooking the dinner and I'll download golf weekly and I always get the paper review on a Sunday but even that is becoming a little weak due to the guests they are getting. I want to hear journalists on it giving their take on a piece of writing. Not Hector blathering on or Bernard Jackman bringing everything back to a rugby view.

I really can't remember the last interview they did that was must listen for me. Might have been Lance.

Tell me how

Felexicon wrote: »

I think the show has been a victim of it's own success.
There isn't really enough happening in the sporting world to have 2, 2 hour shows 5 days a week and 2 longer format shows at the weekend.
I know they throw in a match commentary at the weekend but its probably not enough.

What they're left doing is filling space with power rankings and pressure rankings along with Monday night rugby, Wednesday night rugby and Rugby AM on a Friday. I love rugby but there is only so much you can talk about the 5 teams that interest people on this island. It's probably why Joe seems so fixated on the dementia case being brought against world rugby, it's just something to break the monotony of the usual "Leinster are class aren't they" discussions.

I really can't remember the last interview they did that was must listen for me. Might have been Lance.

Agree with a lot of this. I feel a lot of what they do, they do well, but they do stay within pretty strict margins and effectively wear these topics out.

Think there is a lot more scope of what could be covered without it being excessive or expensive to do so. I'd like to see more frequent coverage of other sports including cycling, motor sport, athletics, tennis etc.
Their top sports stars of each county was a great idea and very interesting throughout the summer as well and think there is scope for more interesting focus pieces than simply more of what they are already covering such as with the Bernard Brogan podcast.

Would love to see them do more of Irish amateur sports and think there is scope there which might still look at soccer, GAA, Rugby but at the non-top rank level which might be interesting.

Felexicon

Felexicon wrote: »

I think the show has been a victim of it's own success.
There isn't really enough happening in the sporting world to have 2, 2 hour shows 5 days a week and 2 longer format shows at the weekend.
I know they throw in a match commentary at the weekend but its probably not enough.

What they're left doing is filling space with power rankings and pressure rankings along with Monday night rugby, Wednesday night rugby and Rugby AM on a Friday. I love rugby but there is only so much you can talk about the 5 teams that interest people on this island. It's probably why Joe seems so fixated on the dementia case being brought against world rugby, it's just something to break the monotony of the usual "Leinster are class aren't they" discussions.

I used to be an avid listener but now find myself listening to the newsround in the evening while cooking the dinner and I'll download golf weekly and I always get the paper review on a Sunday but even that is becoming a little weak due to the guests they are getting. I want to hear journalists on it giving their take on a piece of writing. Not Hector blathering on or Bernard Jackman bringing everything back to a rugby view.

I really can't remember the last interview they did that was must listen for me. Might have been Lance.

Very similar to my experiences with OTB of late. Newsround, catch an odd football piece via podcast and then the paper review. I almost never listen to it live anymore but do scroll the podcasts for anything interesting.

They had great pieces with Cathal McCarron, David Walsh and Lance a few years ago but there has been very little edge of the seat radio since. It's all very bland and formulaic, which it probably has to be if you are churning out that much content.

bike2wkr

John giles is probably one of the only guests I listen to on OTB. He still a good judge of a game . Can't understand a word Pat Nevin says plus he hates Liverpool so I don't listen to him. They seem to have a lack of high quality guests. A regular Tim Vickery slot would be good.

Why not cover Athletics and cycling a bit more? And other sports.

Also is there even an Irish soccer league slot on? Seems to be constant premier league.

The guy from Dundalk Vinny Perth fairly good on football show last night. I rarely listen to OTB in evening anymore.

Abel Ruiz

Feenix wrote: »

I’m not quite sure that is considered abuse really. Directly calling someone a clown for not liking the same football pundit as you is however.

There is literally nothing Giles could have said about him. Going by his track record I doubt he knows his age, where he’s from or that he’s been in the Ireland senior squad for the last year or so. I think the casual sports fan might like listening to him but he offers no insight whatsoever.

Are you the mod?
Dry your eyes.
Its okay if you dont like giles.

gluppers

Felexicon wrote: »

I think the show has been a victim of it's own success.
There isn't really enough happening in the sporting world to have 2, 2 hour shows 5 days a week and 2 longer format shows at the weekend.
I know they throw in a match commentary at the weekend but its probably not enough.

What they're left doing is filling space with power rankings and pressure rankings along with Monday night rugby, Wednesday night rugby and Rugby AM on a Friday. I love rugby but there is only so much you can talk about the 5 teams that interest people on this island. It's probably why Joe seems so fixated on the dementia case being brought against world rugby, it's just something to break the monotony of the usual "Leinster are class aren't they" discussions.

I used to be an avid listener but now find myself listening to the newsround in the evening while cooking the dinner and I'll download golf weekly and I always get the paper review on a Sunday but even that is becoming a little weak due to the guests they are getting. I want to hear journalists on it giving their take on a piece of writing. Not Hector blathering on or Bernard Jackman bringing everything back to a rugby view.

I really can't remember the last interview they did that was must listen for me. Might have been Lance.

There's no other media in the northern hemisphere which puts so much emphasis on rugby. I swear it's a status thing. It's almost there to humour the corporate types. Also there's little banter around the rugby discussions, it's taken too seriously, like the business world. Oversaturation and pretentious

Did you smash it

gluppers wrote: »

There's no other media in the northern hemisphere which puts so much emphasis on rugby. I swear it's a status thing. It's almost there to humour the corporate types. Also there's little banter around the rugby discussions, it's taken too seriously, like the business world. Oversaturation and pretentious

I’m not a rugby fan but I can admit it justifies interest in it because the Ireland team and it’s clubs lift trophies and beat the best.

On the other hand the Irish soccer team gets huge interest and has being almost exclusively dismal for over ten years on account of having dismal players.

CatFromHue

There's not really that much rugby on the night time show.

Half an hour on a Monday and Wednesday and then maybe an extra slot on a Friday if there's a big game.

Compare that to a full hour of horse racing on a Friday and a full hour, at least, of football every show.

Did you smash it

I see Johnny Ward has left Twitter.

Brock Turnpike

Did you smash it wrote: »

I see Johnny Ward has left Twitter.

No idea how that list has manner to carve a career giving opinions on football..

JeffKenna

Did you smash it wrote: »

I’m not a rugby fan but I can admit it justifies interest in it because the Ireland team and it’s clubs lift trophies and beat the best.

On the other hand the Irish soccer team gets huge interest and has being almost exclusively dismal for over ten years on account of having dismal players.

Since when have Ireland beaten the best? They continue to fail at every world cup. Let them go and win the world cup and come back with that comment then.

Did you smash it

JeffKenna wrote: »

Since when have Ireland beaten the best? They continue to fail at every world cup. Let them go and win the world cup and come back with that comment then.

They’ve beaten every notable rugby country on earth in the last 5 years.

Brock Turnpike

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

No idea how that list has manner to carve a career giving opinions on football..

I know Johnny well, and he knows football very well. But I'm not sure he's all that interested in the Premier League and it probably shows. He's great on LOI football and horse-racing, two things he's genuinely passionate about. With regard to Twitter, he's not suited to the medium and I'm glad he's closed his account as he was always getting himself in trouble on it.

JeffKenna

Did you smash it wrote: »

They’ve beaten every notable rugby country on earth in the last 5 years.

In a friendly.