TITLE EDIT..DIFFERENCES IN GENERATIONAL EDUCATION AND CUTE WHOORISM CULTURE

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy

OK
I have to get this off my chest.

It seems to me there is a huge education gap in the generations in Ireland.

I was working in the UK for a few weeks (I freelance and i am back in Dublin now).

I found the culture there towards age and qualifications different. My education, qualifications and ability mattered more. And older people were willing to listen and accept instruction.

I am young, female, Irish; I have a B.A, a postgrad and two languages.

I know i am not all that. In most other European countries i am the norm.

But i am tired of the older generation’s lack of qualification and knowledge. It is not ageism i have no issues with people retraining or having experience. But really I notice it in every area of the public and private sector...in my area everyone over 40 in Ireland is not educated or trained enough to deal with the aspects of their profession as professionally as they would in other countries.

They seem surprised at my perceived 'brightness'.

The youth are told that they are the most molly coddled generation. I disagree it is the older generation of bankers business men and those in the public sector and public office holding those positions without much education or intelligence that are the most molly coddled.

We bailout their incompetence and corruption and deal with the personal economic crisis of ex millionaires in their middle age who can't understand what they did wrong.

It just seems like an elephant in the room.

When i speak to younger people...they are often over educated if anything and tired of being patronised by incompetents.

yore

You can't learn everything in your lecture halls princess. Even if they really like your "qualifictaions" in the UK.

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy wrote: »

I found the culture there towards age and qualifictaions different. My education, qualifications and ability mattered more. And older people were willing to listen and accept instruction.

big b

Wouldn't normally go down this route, but for this smug, self-satisfied & sweepingly arrogant post, I'll make an exception.

Learn spelling & grammar before belittling the education of others.

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy

big b wrote: »

Wouldn't normally go down this route, but for this smug, self-satisfied & sweepingly arrogant post, I'll make an exception.

Learn spelling & grammar before belittling the education of others.

Fair point, I should not give it if i can't take it. I will proof it.

Chuck Stone

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy wrote: »

It is not ageism

Yes it is.

The entire rant was ageist.

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy

yore wrote: »

You can't learn everything in your lecture halls princess. Even if they really like your "qualifictaions" in the UK.

I expect criticism where criticism is due. I appreciate that even in a non professional enviroment. So thank you.

yore

You do also realise that there is a difference between "education" and "intelligence".... right?

Galwayguy35

You may have your BA and your two languages but you don't seem to have much respect for other people.

Wee Willy Harris

Maybe they're just weary and resigned to our generation but depends on what you value and I'm staunchly of the view its the other way 'round.

Maybe your focus on education with the common view to sitting on ones hole, pretending to punch some keys for money saps the wanderlust out of self education but I see a ****load of frankly robotic people today and we certainly didn't have that pre-millenium n it's not much different in the uk so leave ihr ourhh

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Yes it is.

The entire rant was ageist.

I don't think so. I accept it is not altogether true.

I apologize if it seems to be offensive.

I accept the 'rant' criticism.

ruthloss

OP,
are you including your parents in your sweeping statement? Presumably, they worked hard to pay for you to attain your lofty position in life?.

baztard

sounds to me like you're in need of a good ride! Might loosen you up a little :pac:

shantolog

My father's formal education ended when he was 13, then he went to work in a mill during the 1950s.

My father reads Chomsky, knows what a prion is, and has recently been telling me about Hawkin's radiation...

Perhaps you are unwise to cast a whole generation in such a negative light, and should lay the blame at the feet of the people responsible...maybe the profession you are in doesn't demand a high caliber of employee?...jus' sayin

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy

yore wrote: »

Just to make a point. It is this attitude that is unhelpful.

But a couple of days ago would be a prime example; I was working as an interpreter for a private company. They had arranged a meeting to last an hour with a foreign client. But they had hired me for 30 mins. I had advised them that communication would be difficult if not impossible. I was told something akin to the above.

Move forward to the actual date I of course have to spend an extra 30 mins there that was unscheduled. They just could not understand that I was actually trying to help them.

And they tried to make out that extra 30 mins was 'grace time' and that they should not be charged.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:


I realize that education and intelligence are not interchangable.

But there are certain tasks and skills that require training or education.

mikemac1

The arrogance of youth

OP, if you are doing a job for decades and have risen to a mangers job then you don't need a piece of paper


Maybe talk to your parents OP.
Many of that generation couldn't afford secondary school fees or had to leave at 12 to work for the family

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You may have your BA and your two languages but you don't seem to have much respect for other people.

I do actually. However i am wary of how professionally competent Ireland is.

My complaint would be lack of respect for rigour in qualifications and knowledge.

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy

ruthloss wrote: »

OP,
are you including your parents in your sweeping statement? Presumably, they worked hard to pay for you to attain your lofty position in life?.

No they did not financially assist me.

One has a PHD, two other B.A's and one other M.A and my other parent a B.A. They would be of the same opinion as myself.

The older generation (even their peers) do not seem to value education and are often not willing to retrain or keep current with training.

It is very much the case in the public sector and certain parts of the private sector with middle aged men sitting pretty and not having a clue.

I will accept there are many who have contributed to society and 0perhaps my OP was harsh. Infact i accept it was harsh.

Perhaps i would be better expressing it like this. Ireland does not value expertise and knowledge.

Pherekydes

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy wrote: »

I am young, female, Irish; I have a B.A, a postgrad and two languages.

Doesn't ring true. Sounds too conceited. Must try harder.

mikemac1

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy wrote: »

One has a PHD, two other B.A's and one other M.A and my other parent a B.A. They would be of the same opinion as myself.

The older generation (even their peers) do not seem to value education and are often not willing to retrain or keep current with training.

Few enough went to college back in the 70's OP

You're clearly from a well off background

Doesn't mean you have to look down on others

Wee Willy Harris

The parents of teens and beyond of today provided our cultural peak in terms of how and how much of us the world saw. And it was all good, right up til we sold our soul. Back when independence meant independence? when republic meant republic. What exposure have we had lately footie failures, bailouts and boybands. vein, greedy, lazy, derpy ultimately soft in the head kids.

Hurts; I know but we have situation for the first time and likely only time in history where most teens parents can say they were cooler than them in a nutshell - and more savvy and obviously more stylish - and probably still are.

RobbingBandit

Smug much OP, have you ever stopped to think without the taxes from these uneducated stupid people how the fcuk could you have gone to college.

Dr Turk Turkelton

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy wrote: »

big b wrote: »

Wouldn't normally go down this route, but for this smug, self-satisfied & sweepingly arrogant post, I'll make an exception.

Learn spelling & grammar before belittling the education of others.

Fair point, I should not give it if i can't take it. I will proof it.

Still waiting for you to proof it.

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy

mikemac1 wrote: »

Few enough went to college back in the 70's OP

You're clearly from a well off background

Doesn't mean you have to look down on others

It was more the eighties for my parents. Ok I accept that it may be economics is a cause of the situation for that generation. Infact that may be part of my point though few did have enough money to go to college in the 70's.

They are the generation that are running NAMA.
The fact that economics caused it does not change the situation.

Take Berie Ahern..he worked for years in accounting without having a qualification. He had no third level education but consistantly lied about it.

kneemos

You seem to be rowing back a lot on your op,"if"your so smart you should think through your statements and have the integrity to stand by them.It will stand you well in the future.

Where To

Educated you may be OP, but a lot to learn you has.

BizzyC

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy wrote: »

Perhaps i would be better expressing it like this. Ireland does not value expertise and knowledge.

Having all the knowledge in the world does not make you the best employee.

Some of the most difficult people to deal with that I know are people like yourself who have excelled academically.

A person's attitude and social skills are hugely important. The most educated person in a field is not necessarily the best person to manage it...

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy

kneemos wrote: »

You seem to be rowing back a lot on your op,"if"your so smart you should think through your statements and have the integrity to stand by them.It will stand you well in the future.

I still stand by the original premise, I was attempting to state it in less inflammatory terms.

Not many seem to disagree that the older generation are less likely to have a third level education.

mikemac1

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy wrote: »

I am young, female, Irish; I have a B.A, a postgrad and two languages.

They seem surprised at my perceived 'brightness'.

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy wrote: »

I was working as an interpreter for a private company.

Interpreters do good work but it's not like you're an official in department of foreign affairs here or working international extradition treaties for Alan Shatter.

You don't need any of your qualifications to be an interpreter for a private company.
A teenager with ability in the languages could do your job, no postgrad needed

Not exactly a top job at all

I'm not looking down on your job and maybe you should stop looking down on others

ruthloss

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy wrote: »

I do actually. However i am wary of how professionally competent Ireland is.

My complaint would be lack of respect for rigour in qualifications and knowledge.

OP,
might I suggest you do not receive the 'respect' you crave because you wave your qualifications in peoples faces and demand it?.

inmyday

mikemac1 wrote: »

Few enough went to college back in the 70's OP

You're clearly from a well off background

Doesn't mean you have to look down on others

But shes not looking down on anyone. She is the one that is tired of being looked down upon.

Shes right. She made a good point. Many are uneducated. I dont know why everyone is jumping down her throat. Probably cause she said they are stupid, but she said it was harsh.

And she was called smug in this thread, but the same person who called her smug, gave out about her spelling. When Im guessing English isnt her first language. Get down off the hobby horse smart ar$e.


I dont know why its a given we HAVE to respect elders in this country, we should respect everyone, man, woman and children.

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy

BizzyC wrote: »

Having all the knowledge in the world does not make you the best employee.

Some of the most difficult people to deal with that I know are people like yourself who have excelled academically.

A person's attitude and social skills are hugely important. The most educated person in a field is not necessarily the best person to manage it...

That is basically saying being 'A YES MAN' is more important than being qualified. And that is EXACTLY how the Irish private sector has been run.

inmyday

mikemac1 wrote: »

I'm not looking down on your job and maybe you should stop looking down on others

But you are looking down on her job. Re-read your post. "A teenager could do it".

mikemac1

Yeah maybe I am

Needs to be taken down a peg

This would have been a good debate in Humanities forum

But when an OP comes to After Hours they want to stir up a reaction

inmyday

Cuchulainn1. wrote: »

Still waiting for you to proof it.

Maybe you could come down now. Off the high horse, and have a chat in this thread. We all know what she meant.

inmyday

mikemac1 wrote: »

Yeah maybe I am

Needs to be taken down a peg

This would have been a good debate in Humanities forum

But when an OP comes to After Hours they want to stir up a reaction

Ah, I wouldnt say a reaction, just a good debate.
But yeah, humanities would be the place for a very good debate about this subject.

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Smug much OP, have you ever stopped to think without the taxes from these uneducated stupid people how the fcuk could you have gone to college.

I would have worked my behind off to do it the same way I financed my M.A.

I am actually good when it comes to money management. I don't fear having to finance myself.

gozunda

The OPs opening salvo is a bit of a sweeping statement imo and the title appears to assign stupidity with lack of education.

There are plenty of 'seniors' that I know that have degrees and postgraduate qualifications and I also know many intelligent people without formal third level qualifications.

However I do believe there is again of truth in what they have said. There appears to be a culture of (for want of a better term) cute hoors who have gained their employment (both public and private) preference through knowing someone rather than knowing anything.

I could cite dozens of examples of individuals who have been appointed to responsible positions without regard to either qualifications or experience. In my experience a number of these are a danger to both themselves and the public at large. Yet they continue to be cosseted and protected by the systems in place. For example I know of people who are employed to train in the field of adult education who have neither the aptitude or qualifications or other personal qualities to do so yet because they have been 'in' the position for years they get away with it.

Thankfully we are are moving towards a point where 'cute whoridism' is less tolerated and there are more controls on such practises.

Personally I believe we as a society should be much less tolerant of these individuals than we actually are.

MagicMarker

There is no debate required, the OP's assertions are moronic.

AngryHippie

OP,

I think part of the problem is that you are putting a very high value on academic achievements, the thing you find most frustrating about older people is one of their greatest values.
You would tend to be a tad idealogical but at the same time highly motivated but perhaps not experienced enough to be taken seriously....

whereas someone twenty years your senior, without any of your degrees could be very realistic, have heard your suggestions before and seen them fail, is respected enough to make a suggestion and have it taken seriously, be a skilled enough negotiator to implement it,be an equal in intellect and self education, but be confident enough in their own abilities to know that every single person you meet on a daily basis is an individual, with strengths and weaknesses, and can have hidden strengths that you cannot fathom.

Pull your head in

bernardo mac

Ironically,OP's heading and argument is revelatory

summerskin

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy wrote: »

kneemos wrote: »

You seem to be rowing back a lot on your op,"if"your so smart you should think through your statements and have the integrity to stand by them.It will stand you well in the future.

I still stand by the original premise, I was attempting to state it in less inflammatory terms.

Not many seem to disagree that the older generation are less likely to have a third level education.

As I have stated previously on here, as an employer, I'd always prefer to hire a non graduate where possible.

Many(not all of course, not going to go into a foolish, generalising rant...) graduates have an enormous level of smugness and entitlement that the non grads don't.

Would much rather someone had worked to gain experience in their field, than have to listen to the graduate who thinks they know it all after reading a few text books.

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy

inmyday wrote: »

Maybe you could come down now. Off the high horse, and have a chat in this thread. We all know what she meant.

To be fair i accept criticism. It seems only fair that I do if i want to give it.

Maybe as a society we are too sensitive.

On the one hand I hear people complain about a woefully uninformed electorate and an uneducated political class.

I am not saying these people are stupid. I am just trying to plainly say that there are many over 40's who are in obs that were they to re-apply for today, they would not get.

There are people in Ireland who work in accounting with no qualifications in accounting for instance.

Ronin247

Ireland,it's not what you know, it's who you know......

RobbingBandit

Jesus H Christ I think we have a winner for the most epic troll ever. If this does turn out to be a serious discussion I think we should all pool in a couple of euros each for the poor OP to get some help.

kneemos

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy wrote: »

That is basically saying being 'A YES MAN' is more important than being qualified. And that is EXACTLY how the Irish private sector has been run.

Being a yes man often is more important.A lot of people get promoted on personality,your superiors don't want to work with you if they don't like you or if your going to argue with them .Most people just wbnt to get through thier day without hassle.

The King of Moo

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy wrote: »

OK
I have to get this off my chest.

It seems to me there is a huge education gap in the generations in Ireland.

I was working in the UK for a few weeks (I freelance and i am back in Dublin now).

I found the culture there towards age and qualifications different. My education, qualifications and ability mattered more. And older people were willing to listen and accept instruction.

I am young, female, Irish; I have a B.A, a postgrad and two languages.

I know i am not all that. In most other European countries i am the norm.

But i am tired of the older generation’s lack of qualification and knowledge. It is not ageism i have no issues with people retraining or having experience. But really I notice it in every area of the public and private sector...in my area everyone over 40 in Ireland is not educated or trained enough to deal with the aspects of their profession as professionally as they would in other countries.

They seem surprised at my perceived 'brightness'.

The youth are told that they are the most molly coddled generation. I disagree it is the older generation of bankers business men and those in the public sector and public office holding those positions without much education or intelligence that are the most molly coddled.

We bailout their incompetence and corruption and deal with the personal economic crisis of ex millionaires in their middle age who can't understand what they did wrong.

It just seems like an elephant in the room.

When i speak to younger people...they are often over educated if anything and tired of being patronised by incompetents.

Stupid post is ironic.

Of course the older generation are generally less formally educated. Going to college only became a normal thing recently. Even in the 1980s, many people had to work straight after school to make money, or emigrate.
Everyone knows this. What new point are you trying to make?

Oh wait, I know: that as well as being less formally educated, they're also more stupid than young people, coincidentally.
What a nonsensical thesis.

Do you have no self-awareness at all? Did it not once occur to you not only that you're simply wrong to make such a sweeping, stupid statement, but that you also come across as a stereotype of a smug, snobby, selfish, clueless young person, lacking in basic common sense and empathy?
It's such a shame that you do come across like that, because the stereotype of ignorant, entitled Celtic Tiger cubs in contrast to less formally educated but more sensible people isn't completely true.
There are many smart young students and graduates with a lot of common sense out there, but I doubt you're one of them.

"Brightness" my arse.

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy

summerskin wrote: »

As I have stated previously on here, as an employer, I'd always prefer to hire a non graduate where possible.

Many(not all of course, not going to go into a foolish, generalising rant...) graduates have an enormous level of smugness and entitlement that the non grads don't.

Would much rather someone had worked to gain experience in their field, than have to listen to the graduate who thinks they know it all after reading a few text books.

So you would hire someone for your legal department with no law qualifications? No one in your accounting or finance department qualifications?

If you wanted to expand your business abroad you would find people with great personality but can't speak a word of the langauge?

YEP THAT'S THE IRELAND I KNOW!:):P:rolleyes:

That is exactly the attitude i encounter. Do you really think doing an engineering degree or a law degree is reading a few text books?

When you attain a professional degree it is considered an earned merit. It is not there to do anything but regulate the standards of that profession.


So when it says 'software developer' on a c.v. it means more than that person simply has a great personality.

The above post is EXACTLY what I am talking about.

Elsewhere they seem to regulate professional standards much better.

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy

The King of Moo wrote: »

Stupid post is ironic.

Of course the older generation are generally less formally educated. Going to college only became a normal thing recently. Even in the 1980s, many people had to work straight after school to make money, or emigrate.
Everyone knows this. What new point are you trying to make?

Oh wait, I know: that as well as being less formally educated, they're also more stupid than young people, coincidentally.
What a nonsensical thesis.

Do you have no self-awareness at all? Did it not once occur to you not only that you're simply wrong to make such a sweeping, stupid statement, but that you also come across as a stereotype of a smug, snobby, selfish, clueless young person, lacking in basic common sense and empathy?
It's such a shame that you do come across like that, because the stereotype of ignorant, entitled Celtic Tiger cubs in contrast to less formally educated but more sensible people isn't completely true.
There are many smart young students and graduates with a lot of common sense out there, but I doubt you're one of them.

"Brightness" my arse.

It was in refernce to a general institutionalized culture in Ireland.

And you would find that the case is not true abroad. Formal education is almost a requirement.

Perhaps the 'stupid' reference is unfair but the less educated one is not. And it is a point that is never made. And whatever grief is taken for making it i accept because it is a valid point.

It is generally accepted societies with high levels of education do better economically.

Quorum

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy wrote: »

One has a PHD, two other B.A's and one other M.A and my other parent a B.A. They would be of the same opinion as myself.

To have all that, your folks must have been from well-off families and have been fortunate enough to get scholarships. I don't think you or your parents realise how off-limits third level education was for many people back in the day.

Ficheall

I'm inclined to believe that the OP is trolling.

Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy wrote: »

Not many seem to disagree that the older generation are less likely to have a third level education.

That is hardly a point of contention.
Third-level qualifications are given to just about anyone who wants one these days.

king_of_inismac

When you think you've learned it all, you can still learn humility.


Older people built this country and paid for your education, giving you many opportunities they themselves didn't have.