Auditor-general's report on Motor tax

H3llR4iser

RoverJames wrote: »

But there's Cork city, Galway City, Limerick City etc etc etc where the vast majority of people drive taxed cars...

Oh no, no, no...I noticed this a few days ago, walking back from Tesco in the Douglas area of Cork: a BIG chunk of the parked cars were out of tax, NCT, insurance or all of three alltogether. I was honestly shocked; A good 40% of the cars were illegally on the road in one way or the other.

Took a stroll to Mahon Point during lunch break yesterday and what do you expect, noticed the same in the parking lot...even flashy BMWs, Audis and Mercedes from 2008-2009 with tax that had expired 6 months ago.

awec wrote: »

...If I go out tomorrow and buy some sporty BMW I know that I'm going to be paying more tax than the guy in the nice efficient Ford, and that I'm always going to be paying more tax than him.

The cost of tax is part of the cost of the car. If you can't afford the tax you can't afford the car. Money dictates everything, that's like saying that the house people want to live in shouldn't be limited by the mortgage...

And that's where you go wrong. My 1.4 Renault, worth 1k, pays 358/year. A brand new BMW 320d, worth 45k, pays 160/year. Where is the equity in it? People that can't afford new cars have to pay more tax...and the same goes for the insurance. Is your car old? Pay more and shut up please, or get a loan and get a new car.

The whole system is really structured to put the following process in motion:

1. Paddy pays the tax for his 1999 Ford Mondeo;
2. Paddy is angry he has to pay almost 600€, when Connor down the road pays only 160 for his new BMW;
3. Paddy pays the insurance and again, he pays more than Connor;
4. Paddy is sick of paying "taxes to those government robbers" and decides he needs a new car like Connor's, so the government can stick it up their ...
5. Paddy goes to the bank and gets a loan for his new BMW;
6. THE BANK IS HAPPY ABOUT THE INTEREST RATES THEY'LL CHARGE;
7. Paddy goes to the dealership, pays for the car and VRT and drives off in his shiny new bavarian metal;
8. THE GOVERNMENT IS HAPPY WITH THE VRT;
9. BMW IS HAPPY THEY SOLD A YET ANOTHER CAR TO SOMEBODY THAT WOULD HAVE NEVER BOUGHT ONE;
10. Paddy thinks he's happy, but drives home experiencing an unexplained, slightly burning feeling around his anus;

Rest assured the whole tax system will change again once the entire circulating park has been replaced with post-2008 cars...

Bruthal

OU812 wrote: »

10¢ per litre.

I currently use about €45 per week. which at current pricing (€1.72 P/L) equates to 26 litres a week, which would mean my contribution would be €2.60 per week or €135.20 per year (figures are rounded up to nearest cent).

My tax is currently about €350, so I'd be better off by almost €215 per year which I could spend in the economy. In addition, I'm paying the tax in small increments per week, & have no way of avoiding paying it.

That`s a calculation for yourself, not the countrywide average. You have it a fair bit too low I`d say.
You might be able to avoid paying it if you live near the border.

H3llR4iser

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Oh no, no, no...I noticed this a few days ago, walking back from Tesco in the Douglas area of Cork: a BIG chunk of the parked cars were out of tax, NCT, insurance or all of three alltogether. I was honestly shocked; A good 40% of the cars were illegally on the road in one way or the other.

.........

Are you trying to suggest that 40% is anywhere near a representative number?

How many cars did you actually survey?

Green Diesel

H3llR4iser wrote: »

And that's where you go wrong. My 1.4 Renault, worth 1k, pays 358/year. A brand new BMW 320d, worth 45k, pays 160/year.

He did say a sporty BMW... a 335i is €1,129 a year to tax, and a 550i is €2,258.

It BeeMee

H3llR4iser wrote: »

My 1.4 Renault, worth 1k, pays 358/year. A brand new BMW 320d, worth 45k, pays 160/year. Where is the equity in it?

How many years, at 358/year, will it take to cover the VRT and VAT on the new 45k BMW?

H3llR4iser wrote: »

People that can't afford new cars have to pay more tax...and the same goes for the insurance.

A 1k Renault is more expensive to insure than a 45k BMW?
Can you back that up?

Yakuza

CiniO wrote: »

Wait a second.
Where did "not guilty unless proven" disappear.

When tax (income / motor) is concerned, I'm pretty sure there's an unwritten rule that the Revenue follow - guilty unless proven innocent :rolleyes:

CiniO

Yakuza wrote: »

When tax (income / motor) is concerned, I'm pretty sure there's an unwritten rule that the Revenue follow - guilty unless proven innocent :rolleyes:

So far they don't in any way I know.
In relation to motortax they don't expect anyone to pay it.
But you are caught driving without it (proven guilty) they you can get prosecuted.
But I still can't see a reason why should it change, that I would have to prove I wasn't or that I won't be using my car, just to not pay my motortax.

CiniO

awec wrote: »

If I go out tomorrow and buy some sporty BMW I know that I'm going to be paying more tax than the guy in the nice efficient Ford, and that I'm always going to be paying more tax than him.

No it's not that clear.
As at the moment with have 2 completely different tax systems which apply to cars of different age group, and they aren't even similar.
(f.e in older system car might pay big tax and small in new one, and vice versa).

The cost of tax is part of the cost of the car. If you can't afford the tax you can't afford the car. Money dictates everything, that's like saying that the house people want to live in shouldn't be limited by the mortgage.

That's not a good comparision.
Comparing motor tax to properties in your way, should be more to property tax. The more property is worth, the bigger the tax. (I know that system doesn't work in Ireland).
But with cars there's complete mess. It's neither tax on car value. It's neither tax on milage driven. It's neither tax on car size or weight.
Older tax system discouraged big engine vehicles, while newer discourages high emission vehicles. No one know what other ideas might come in in next 5 years, and possibly then a guy in nice efficient ford, is going to pay more than you pay for your BMW.

munchkin_utd

robbie7730 wrote: »

That`s a calculation for yourself, not the countrywide average. You have it a fair bit too low I`d say.
You might be able to avoid paying it if you live near the border.

I'd say the opposite.

Got stopped near Ballyconnell on the way to Northern Ireland last month by the guards. They were well suss on an irish lad driving a german car but I had all answers (and paperwork to back it up) so I was on my way after a barrage of questions.

Anyhow, being near the border you'd have more folks trying to get away with driving a northern reg car without importing it properly so they're be more garda checkpoints to detect this type of stuff, one of which I had the pleasure of encountering.

H3llR4iser

Green Diesel wrote: »

He did say a sporty BMW... a 335i is €1,129 a year to tax, and a 550i is €2,258.

Oh my...are you suggesting that a BMW 320 is not a better car than a 1.2 or 1.4 Fiat/Renault/Opel/Toyota runaround? Of course a 335i pays in the region of the 1,000 euro, it would be a scandal if it was otherwise. Still, is it in any way fair that somebody that can fork out a few thousands for a newer car has to pay less taxes than the guy that is forced to go around in a banger?

RoverJames wrote: »

Are you trying to suggest that 40% is anywhere near a representative number?

How many cars did you actually survey?

It was quite a few; About 30-40 between the two occasions. Now, I don't want to affix labels but in the case of the first "survey" the cars I checked were parked in a certain estate, let's call it "government backed".

For the shopping mall parking lot, that was more shocking; Perhaps being lunch time the cars belonged mainly to housewives and self-employed people who might just drive to the supermarket for groceries and those driving more KMs on a daily basis pay all the due taxes/insurance etc.

Still, I had never seen so many cars with no insurance, test or tax - not in Ireland at least.

It BeeMee wrote: »

How many years, at 358/year, will it take to cover the VRT and VAT on the new 45k BMW?

If you buy the BMW as a recent second-hand (and in some cases the "0km" offers) you pay less than 45k, let's say 25-30, no VRT, no VAT and still pay much less yearly tax than somebody owning an old banger.
There's just no way the current system is fair, it's not a problem of "ah, sure, you pay more money for the car anyway, the little tax saving is irrelevant" as much as it's a matter of principle: taxes should be proportional to wealth, and current road tax is working exactly the other way around.

A 1k Renault is more expensive to insure than a 45k BMW?
Can you back that up?

I will admit that I am talking about a very peculiar case here - I am being shafted by the insurance because my car is older than 10 years and I own an EU license (pretty sure one could send a note to the EU committee because of this, but they'd just raise the prices for Irish license owners anyway). Had my car been a 2004 rather than a 2001 (with similar spec), the quote would have been HALF what I'll be paying. Of course, in the case of say a 40 years old driver with 3 years no claim, there's little or no difference at all - you got a very valid point.

Joe 90

ShadowHearth wrote: »

girl at work drives 1.3 KA ad she complains about paying tax... :rolleyes:

made me want to give her a good wee slap, after i payed 360eu for both cars 3 month tax.

How much is it to tax the Ka at home these days?

Joe 90

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I'd say the opposite.

Got stopped near Ballyconnell on the way to Northern Ireland last month by the guards. They were well suss on an irish lad driving a german car but I had all answers (and paperwork to back it up) so I was on my way after a barrage of questions.

Anyhow, being near the border you'd have more folks trying to get away with driving a northern reg car without importing it properly so they're be more garda checkpoints to detect this type of stuff, one of which I had the pleasure of encountering.

I think he was referring to the increased tax on fuel.

Guy:Incognito

CiniO wrote: »

Wait a second.
You are saying that anyone owning a car should be automatically believed to be using it on public roads, and if he/she isn't then it's up to him/her to prove it.

Where did "not guilty unless proven" disappear.

This is not a bloody court case. :rolleyes:

The system works fine in the UK. If you dont SORN or tax your car, you get a fine issued. Very simple.

astaines wrote: »

One of my concerns was that when the lower taxrates for more efficient cars were introdcued, they were only applied to nely registered cars. I got a Fiat Panda diesel - at the time one of the lowest carbon cars on the market, about six months before the tax change, and have got no motor tax benefit at all from it.

If you had just bought a 2litre petrol that under the new system that would be 2k a year to tax, would you have the same concerns?


It's easy to look for equality when its working in your favour.

Bruthal

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I'd say the opposite.

Got stopped near Ballyconnell on the way to Northern Ireland last month by the guards. They were well suss on an irish lad driving a german car but I had all answers (and paperwork to back it up) so I was on my way after a barrage of questions.

Not many answers or documents needed to drive an irish reg car across the border and filling the car with petrol, thus avoiding the motor tax on fuel, if motor tax was incorporated into the cost of fuel here.

You probably though I was talking about avoiding motor tax as it is now.

September1

CiniO wrote: »

Wait a second.
You are saying that anyone owning a car should be automatically believed to be using it on public roads, and if he/she isn't then it's up to him/her to prove it.

Where did "not guilty unless proven" disappear.

It did not disappear, it was never there in case of taxes, Revenue always expects you to prove being innocent.