Nuclear Power

Curly Judge

No

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And we have a serious amount of excess generating capacity so Nuclear just isn't needed for foreseeable future
http://www.eirgrid.com/media/2013%20D4WI%20Study.xlsx

Our record demand was 5,090MW compared to a minimum reserve at peak demand for the rest of the year of over 2,800MW

And our capacity is due to peak in 2016 and could be extended further by the simple measure of not decommissioning more old power plants.

Forward planning?
Or should we wait until the wolf is at the door before we fit a latch?

Capt'n Midnight

Curly Judge wrote: »

Forward planning?
Or should we wait until the wolf is at the door before we fit a latch?

Sorry I don't understand the point (really)

We don't need spare capacity.

The plan for the foreseeable future is to shift some generation from fossil fuel to renewables.


Nuclear probably has the longest lead time of any likely power sources here.
Dams may take longer, but we are already maxed out on this Island and something like the Shannon tidal barrage is unlikely.


I'm still waiting for a price for nuclear power that includes financing costs. (disposal and clean up costs would be nice too)

Predicted uranium costs would also be nice. But you would also have to factor in much increased demand because others are more likely than we are to build nukes. And a reminder that the megatons to megawatts program has ended, they've used up all the spare warheads.

old hippy

Curly Judge wrote: »

Logical???
Over 15,000 killed by the earthquake and tsunami and.... not a word about it
No one killed by nuclear power and.... the usual suspects are out in force.
Mark my words: most of the Japanese power stations will reopen!

They will reopen because Abe, like his predecessors knows that there's money to be made out of nuclear power and Japanese politicians only pay lip service to their people. It's a very big deal over there, the anti-nuclear sentiment. This stems right back to the A bombs dropped on Japan. Plenty died then and the legacy of those attacks left plenty dying over the years. We have no idea yet of the legacy of Fukushima.

And the Japanese people, my own family included, will continue to voice their fears over nuclear power.

As for not a word about the earthquakes and tsunami; are you kidding? There's been plenty of words, angry words, about safety procedures and preventitive actions since the disaster. I guess this doesn't count as "ths usual suspects" because you can't wave a banner at tsunamis?

spankmemunkey

old hippy wrote: »

They will reopen because Abe, like his predecessors knows that there's money to be made out of nuclear power and Japanese politicians only pay lip service to their people. It's a very big deal over there, the anti-nuclear sentiment. This stems right back to the A bombs dropped on Japan. Plenty died then and the legacy of those attacks left plenty dying over the years. We have no idea yet of the legacy of Fukushima.

And the Japanese people, my own family included, will continue to voice their fears over nuclear power.

As for not a word about the earthquakes and tsunami; are you kidding? There's been plenty of words, angry words, about safety procedures and preventitive actions since the disaster. I guess this doesn't count as "ths usual suspects" because you can't wave a banner at tsunamis?

Tsunami= Natural Disaster!

Nuclear Meltdown = Man made Disaster!

Curly Judge

No

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Tsunami= Natural Disaster!

Nuclear Meltdown = Man made Disaster!

Natural disaster = 15,000 dead!

Man made disaster = No one dead!

old hippy

Curly Judge wrote: »

Natural disaster = 15,000 dead!

Man made disaster = No one dead!

You don't know that. You have no idea how many may fall ill as a result.

Thousands have already been displaced from their homes in the region. That's not something that should be ignored.

stateofflux

ireland doesn't do efficient or responsible.....so no

wellboytoo

No

Nuclear power that kills nearly as many as fluoridisation.......

Curly Judge

No

old hippy wrote: »

[]You don't know that. You have no idea how many may fall ill as a result.

Thousands have already been displaced from their homes in the region. That's not something that should be ignored.

And, with respect, neither do you.

Capt'n Midnight

It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2013/03/11/news/doc513d75cdcc89e757434823.txt

Since the 2010 report, almost 40 percent of the 104 U.S. reactors have had safety breaches serious enough to require the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to dispatch inspection teams

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-182_en.htm

All 14 Member States with nuclear power plants and Switzerland have prepared national action plans which include timetables for implementation. These plans will be peer-reviewed by national teams at the end of April 2013.
...
According to the estimations by nuclear power plant operators and national regulators, the improvement measures could cost up to €200 million per reactor unit. As there are 132 nuclear reactors in the EU, the overall cost of improvements could mount up to €25 billion.

In a nutshell this makes Nuclear power more expensive and next month we may find out if they are skimping on it.




Just a reminder that Fukushima was a triple meltdown.
And the reactors that didn't fail were already shutdown for maintainance. I'd say it's likely that had the other reactors been operating that they too would have failed.

Also take into account the near misses. The Nuclear Industry reckoned on a 4.68m tsunami but the Ibaraki prefecture did their own calculations and reckoned on 6 or 7 m.

Japan Atomic Power changed its wave level assumption to 5.7 meters. The reconstruction works were started in July 2009 to raise the height of the 4.9-meter protection around the plant to 6.1 meters, in order to protect the seawater pumps designed to cool an emergency diesel generator.

The seawall at Tōkai was completed two days before the tsunami :eek: (actually most of the wall was completed 7 months before - still a near miss)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%8Dkai_Nuclear_Power_Plant

The Tokai plant suffered a loss of external power-supply like what happened in Fukushima. Even the levee was overrun in Tokai, but only one of three seawater pumps failed, and the reactors could be kept stable and safe in cold shutdown with the emergency diesel generator cooled by the two remaining seawater pumps

They still lost external power and one of the three seawater pumps.

Onagawa was also a near miss.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onagawa_Nuclear_Power_Plant#2011

The April 7th aftershock damaged 2 of the 3 power lines connecting to the plant, the aftershock did not damage any of the backup cooling systems

I've seen 4 out of 5 power lines elsewhere. But if you dig a little deeper you find this http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2012/08/how_tenacity_a_wall_saved_a_ja.html

Hirai said the plant should be built almost 50 feet above sea level. He called for a unique cooling system that would provide water even if a receding tsunami temporarily left the plant high and dry. And Hirai said the plant should be protected by a seawall 49 feet high, not 10 feet as originally designed.

Colleagues told Tohoku Electric's president that 39 feet would be sufficient. But Hirai, trained by the formidable Yasuzaemon Matsunaga, known as Japan's king of electric power, disagreed.

"Matsunaga-san hated bureaucrats," Oshima said. "He said they are like human trash. In your country, too, there are probably bureaucrats or officials who never take final responsibility.

"So Matsunaga's attitude was that you've got to go beyond the regulations," Oshima said. "If you just follow the regulations, you end up with what happened at Fukushima Dai-ichi. That's what Matsunaga told Hirai, and Hirai taught me."

"Corporate ethics is different from compliance," Oshima said, echoing Hirai. "Just being 'not guilty' is not enough."

old hippy

Curly Judge wrote: »

And, with respect, neither do you.

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2013/02/12/fukushimas-children-are-getting-sick/

http://www.aljazeera.com/video/asia-pacific/2012/03/20123914421232874.html

http://ecowatch.org/2012/effects-fukushima-disaster/

http://www.examiner.com/article/fukushima-infant-deformities-fetus-deaths-are-not-mental-illness

http://enenews.com/reuters-interviews-fukushima-worker-i-get-stomach-aches-they-should-give-us-a-medal-nhk-thick-steel-plates-cover-ground-due-to-radioactive-substances/comment-page-1

http://www.naturalnews.com/038185_Fukushima_children_thyroid_disorders.html

spankmemunkey

wellboytoo wrote: »

Nuclear power that kills nearly as many as fluoridisation.......

Ha ha, looking me up and seeing what threads im involved in? im flattered!

Curly Judge

No

old hippy wrote: »

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2013/02/12/fukushimas-children-are-getting-sick/

http://www.aljazeera.com/video/asia-pacific/2012/03/20123914421232874.html

http://ecowatch.org/2012/effects-fukushima-disaster/

http://www.examiner.com/article/fukushima-infant-deformities-fetus-deaths-are-not-mental-illness

http://enenews.com/reuters-interviews-fukushima-worker-i-get-stomach-aches-they-should-give-us-a-medal-nhk-thick-steel-plates-cover-ground-due-to-radioactive-substances/comment-page-1


http://www.naturalnews.com/038185_Fukushima_children_thyroid_disorders.html

And.....from out of all the bumph..... the only one that really matters!:
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_WHO_Low_radiation_risk_from_Fukushima_2802131.html

Curly Judge

No

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Ha ha, looking me up and seeing what threads im involved in? im flattered![/QUOTE]

You shouldn't be!:)

spankmemunkey

Curly Judge wrote: »

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Ha ha, looking me up and seeing what threads im involved in? im flattered![/QUOTE]

You shouldn't be!:)

Ah its all just chat and arguments, all shouldnt be taken too seriously!:o

Full.Duck

Whoa, i am actually gob smacked at how many people are in favour of nuclear power. I honestly thought it was going to be roughly 5-1 against.

spankmemunkey

Full.Duck wrote: »

Whoa, i am actually gob smacked at how many people are in favour of nuclear power. I honestly thought it was going to be roughly 5-1 against.

So was I, I think it boils down to alot of people thinking i dont care i wont be alive to see the consequences, We live in a consumer society which live to consume consume consume,

old hippy

Curly Judge wrote: »

And.....from out of all the bumph..... the only one that really matters!:
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_WHO_Low_radiation_risk_from_Fukushima_2802131.html

Which freely admits to risks of cancer in the area. Well done, you proved my point.

Curly Judge

No

old hippy wrote: »

Which freely admits to risks of cancer in the area. Well done, you proved my point.

And of course Ireland is totally free of any cancer risk?
Dr. John Crown has being drawing his wages under false pretence all these years?

Curly Judge

No

spankmemunkey wrote: »

So was I, I think it boils down to alot of people thinking i dont care i wont be alive to see the consequences, We live in a consumer society which live to consume consume consume,

You paint us as very uncaring, selfish hedonists?
This is simply not true!
Speaking personally I live a very frugal lifestyle but I do not want to return to some pre-industrial Nirvana, or force anyone else to do so.
I came from such a society [mid fifties rural Ireland] and I have no desire to go back.
The hidden agenda of a large number [not all] of the anti nuclear brigade is to
force us all back to an existence which is only yearned for by those who have never experienced it.
I think I'll pass!

old hippy

Curly Judge wrote: »

And of course Ireland is totally free of any cancer risk?
Dr. John Crown has being drawing his wages under false pretence all these years?

Excuse me, what does a thread about nuclear power (focussing mostly of late on Japan) have to do with cancer rates in Ireland?

Stick with your convictions on Japan if you must but try not to evade the fact you've been caught out.

I posted links that prove the legacy of Fukushima and you attempted to counter that with a link of your own that - guess what - proved what I was saying with my links :rolleyes:

Over to you.

Chloe Pink

old hippy wrote: »

Excuse me, what does a thread about nuclear power (focussing mostly of late on Japan) have to do with cancer rates in Ireland?

What does a thread about Ireland have to do with tsunamis in Japan

old hippy

Chloe Pink wrote: »

What does a thread about Ireland have to do with tsunamis in Japan

Dunno, ask the other posters who brought it up. I guess, IMHO, some of us who were shocked by the events of 2 years ago have the worry of nuclear power becoming worldwide...

And not just 2 years ago. Chernobyl and 3 Mile Island spring to mind.

Curly Judge

No

old hippy wrote: »

Excuse me, what does a thread about nuclear power (focussing mostly of late on Japan) have to do with cancer rates in Ireland?

Stick with your convictions on Japan if you must but try not to evade the fact you've been caught out.

I posted links that prove the legacy of Fukushima and you attempted to counter that with a link of your own that - guess what - proved what I was saying with my links :rolleyes:

Over to you.

Okay, if that's the way you want to play it.........
Let's just take one example:
How does my link about the WHO report support in any way one of your links ludicrous assertion of genetic deformities?
Rolling out the odd picture of a deformed child was an old Adi Roche trick in the Chernobyl days.
Seems it has been dusted off again here for Fukushima.

old hippy

Curly Judge wrote: »

Okay, if that's the way you want to play it.........
How does my link about the WHO report support in any way one of your links ludicrous assertion of genetic deformities?
Rolling out the odd picture of a deformed child was an old Adi Roche trick in the Chernobyl days.
Seems it has been dusted off again here for Fukushima.

I suggest you read my links properly which you so blithely dismissed and then read your link which proves there is at the very least, a risk of radiation related illnesses - something which you also initially dismissed.

I'm certainly not playing with the idea of nuclear power. I have family in Japan and I plan to retire there, so it's something that's of the utmost importance to me.

Capt'n Midnight

Chloe Pink wrote: »

What does a thread about Ireland have to do with tsunamis in Japan

It shows that the nuclear industry doesn't prepare for the worst
or even learn from near misses in the past.

Anyway much closer to home

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Blayais_Nuclear_Power_Plant_flood

The 1998 annual review of plant safety for the plant identified the need for the sea walls to be raised to 5.7 m (19 ft) above NGF, and envisaged that this would be carried out in 2000

No prizes for guessing what happened on Dec 27 1999 :rolleyes:

Fukishima wasn't the first nuclear plant to have it's cooling system compromised because it's sea wall wasn't high enough to cater for historic floods at the site.

In the pumping room for unit 1, one set of the two pairs of pumps in the Essential Service Water System failed due to flooding; had both sets failed then the safety of plant would have been endangered.

Japan got lucky, as I posted earlier two other nuclear plants could easily have been flooded had the nuclear industry bean counters been left to do it their way.

Chloe Pink

old hippy wrote: »

Dunno, ask the other posters who brought it up. I guess, IMHO, some of us who were shocked by the events of 2 years ago have the worry of nuclear power becoming worldwide...

And not just 2 years ago. Chernobyl and 3 Mile Island spring to mind.

The events in Japan 2 years ago were shocking but Ireland doesn't get tsunamis.
Chernobly and 3 mile Island were shocking too.
And all the mining accidents are shocking.
And suprisingly, nuclear power has a good safety record compared with other methods of producing electricity.
It not the same thing but it is a parallel, air travel is safer than car travel yet it's the big plane crashes that stand out.

StickyIcky

No

In favour. Anything that can give me hot water 24/7 instead of having to heat my own in a big tin in my cupboard I'll be in favour of. Electricity prices in the country are a fecking disgrace. You get it for about 3 or 4 cent in countries like Sweden and Canada.

AlmightyCushion

No

StickyIcky wrote: »

In favour. Anything that can give me hot water 24/7 instead of having to heat my own in a big tin in my cupboard I'll be in favour of. Electricity prices in the country are a fecking disgrace. You get it for about 3 or 4 cent in countries like Sweden and Canada.

Are you sure about that? According to this electricity prices here are practically the same as Sweeden.

StickyIcky

No

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Are you sure about that? According to this electricity prices here are practically the same as Sweeden.

I was over there a few years ago. Was looking at a friend electricity bill. Seemed to be MUCH lower than here. I think I worked it out to be just a few cents a KWH. May have got my conversion wrong. Maybe there's something that we don't know that's not on that site.

In any case they have hot water 24/7 also in many apartment blocks the heating is on all winter. And they have houses that have actual insulation in them.

My point is give me nuclear power godmanit. I burn coal for half the day in my house yet the house is still cold and the water is still cold.