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starling

Feathers wrote: »

Didn't so much mean tags, more the prefixes used on some boards, like here: http://touch.boards.ie/forum/25

PI could be good for some threads, but others, like "Why I need feminism?" mentioned above, probably fall outside that too - it's more of around 'solidarity' for want of a better word, than the type of support/advice threads in PI.

Ah those would be visible, that would eliminate any issues with mobile viewing

It's true it depends on the poster themselves whether they specifically want to go to PI or tLL. There would be many instances where a thread could belong in either. I'd see "solidarity" or empathy from people who have been in similar situations as a big part of what makes tLL so valuable for many posters.:)

IvyTheTerrible

Has anybody noticed that the level of "whataboutery" has increased a lot in the last while? I feel like we (women) are having to defend ourselves a lot more in here. It feels a lot more aggressive IMO.

This just struck me yesterday, but it seems to be since the "trending" tab was introduced to the main page. What do ye think?

IvyTheTerrible

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Has anybody noticed that the level of "whataboutery" has increased a lot in the last while? I feel like we (women) are having to defend ourselves a lot more in here. It feels a lot more aggressive IMO.

This just struck me yesterday, but it seems to be since the "trending" tab was introduced to the main page. What do ye think?

It's definitely on the rise Ivy, I only said it in the mod forum the other day!

Never even thought about the trending tab but you could be spot on. I'm away at the minute with crappy Internet but will follow that up when I'm back

Legs.Eleven

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Has anybody noticed that the level of "whataboutery" has increased a lot in the last while? I feel like we (women) are having to defend ourselves a lot more in here. It feels a lot more aggressive IMO.

This just struck me yesterday, but it seems to be since the "trending" tab was introduced to the main page. What do ye think?

Grrrrrrr.:mad: It's to the point of ridiculousness. Wreaking me buzz.

starling

I think Ivy's probably right about the "trending" tab encouraging drive-by trolling.

I was thinking, the soccer forum has its own rules about access, do you ladies think something like that might help in tLL?
It would stop re-reg trolls and mean that people would actually read the charter before posting.

Otoh it might discourage genuine posters, I don't know. There's also the risk that it might reinforce certain people's perception that tLL is a place where dissenting or antifeminist views are not tolerated, that it is in one poster's words "an echo chamber" - an inaccurate view, but one that some people believe nonetheless

I'm sure the mods must have considered the restricted access option before, I'd be interested to hear what kind of points came up in those discussion?

clairefontaine

I think you have to be careful that that things like mansplaining and whataboutery are not used as means to silence others. But maybe thats what you want.

Certainly "a woman's point of view" would imply a singular perspective, one that would alienate the point of view of women that don't fit in with melodic harmonies of particular voices here.

There are thesis posted here that do have some weird built in assumptions, that because of the charter can't be challenged, but deserve to be fro this particular woman's point of view.

Legs.Eleven

clairefontaine wrote: »

I think you have to be careful that that things like mansplaining and whataboutery are not used as means to silence others. But maybe thats what you want.

Certainly "a woman's point of view" would imply a singular perspective, one that would alienate the point of view of women that don't fit in with melodic harmonies of particular voices here.

There are thesis posted here that do have some weird built in assumptions, that because of the charter can't be challenged, but deserve to be fro this particular woman's point of view.

I think people are referring to the petty whataboutery whereby a poster who never posts in TLL jumps into a thread they haven't read at all and makes a comment totally unrelated to the topic that adds nothing to the discussion and leaves people having to explain that yes, that's also a problem but this is not what the discussion is about. It's got the point of ridiculousness. I love to see male posters in here who can debate with a bit of thought and add another perspective to the same topic but jumping in to a thread and stating that women who find men who sleep with prostitutes (when the topic was men CHEATING ON THEIR PARTNERS with prostitutes) are not as pathetic as women who buy an expensive bag ( That may or may not be so but there's more than one pathetic act out there. It's not a contest.). On the same thread, someone stated it was the OP's husband she was talking about and she was looking for "validation from her sisters (women :rolleyes:)" when she never said it was. They were snarky, condescending, trolling, pointless comments that had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I don't want an "Us v them" mentality in here but it's not helped when some male posters come in with "What about men" type comments. They're the ones creating the point scoring atmosphere in my view.

We get a mainly male point of view everywhere else on Boards and it'd be nice to be able to discuss things that affect women without having to compare and contrast how men are treated in totally different and unrelated situations.

starling

clairefontaine wrote: »

I think you have to be careful that that things like mansplaining and whataboutery are not used as means to silence others. But maybe thats what you want.

Whoa, I think that's a bit harsh. Genuine instances of whataboutery and mansplaining derail threads and drag them into the same arguments time after time; whataboutery is off topic and mansplaining is dismissive and insulting. Whatboutery is against the forum rules for a good reason.
Men are allowed to express their opinions in tLL, but they're not entitled to remain unchallenged if their opinion is just sexism. Everybody has a right to their own opinion. That doesn't mean you have the right to express an opinion and not have it challenged.

clairefontaine wrote: »

Certainly "a woman's point of view" would imply a singular perspective, one that would alienate the point of view of women that don't fit in with melodic harmonies of particular voices here.

I'm assuming you're talking about feminists? It's a forum for women; if a large number of women happen to be feminists or to express opinions that are commonly expressed in feminist discourse that's hardly surprising? There's no rule that says you have to be a feminist to post in tLL. It's just that by the law of averages there's probably going to be a fair few posters who are feminists.

clairefontaine wrote: »

There are thesis posted here that do have some weird built in assumptions, that because of the charter can't be challenged, but deserve to be fro this particular woman's point of view.

A lot of posters have pretty weird assumptions tbf. I don't think the charter stifles discussion, it just helps to prevent threads designed for women to discuss things from their perspective from being ruined by having to deal with the same old bs from men.

clairefontaine

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

I think people are referring to the petty whataboutery whereby a poster who never posts in TLL jumps into a thread they haven't read at all and makes a comment totally unrelated to the topic that adds nothing to the discussion and leaves people having to explain that yes, that's also a problem but this is not what the discussion is about. It's got the point of ridiculousness. I love to see male posters in here who can debate with a bit of thought and add another perspective to the same topic but jumping in to a thread and stating that women who find men who sleep with prostitutes (when the topic was men CHEATING ON THEIR PARTNERS with prostitutes) are not as pathetic as women who buy an expensive bag ( That may or may not be so but there's more than one pathetic act out there. It's not a contest.). On the same thread, someone stated it was the OP's husband she was talking about and she was looking for "validation from her sisters (women :rolleyes:)" when she never said it was. They were snarky, condescending, trolling, pointless comments that had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I don't want an "Us v them" mentality in here but it's not helped when some male posters come in with "What about men" type comments. They're the ones creating the point scoring atmosphere in my view.

We get a mainly male point of view everywhere else on Boards and it'd be nice to be able to discuss things that affect women without having to compare and contrast how men are treated in totally different and unrelated situations.

I understand what you are saying and agree its annoying. Perhaps if you asked posters to read the last ten pages of a thread, to write mor than one sentence, to stick to the subject, and to be respectful, you might get more helpful responses even if they disagreed with the thesis of the subject.

Sometimes it's incredibly frustrating to see, what I consider very bigoted theses or language here, on the part of the female posters, and not be able to challenge some of the axioms held in the thesis, because it doesn't concur with the sacred woman's point of view. I am a woman. If my point of view does not glide with another posters does that make it NOT a woman's point of view. Hardly. It's just another woman's point of view.

To take of or example, a subject that comes up from time to time. The issue of reporting rape or domestic violence to the police. So many people assume this is a woman's issue. Well it is. But it's also an everyone's issue. The assumption in calling it a woman's issue, is that is that men and children have an easier time reporting their victimisation to the police, which is not the case. Victims across the board have trouble getting the cops to believe them, have trouble with evidence, have trouble in courts and the system. And because of the inherent bias in positing this as a woman's issue exclusively, is it will lead to whataboutery, because that is generally what bias does...it excludes. So you want inclusivity, but then practise exclusionary philosophy.

So I get that frustration also.

starling

clairefontaine wrote: »

I understand what you are saying and agree its annoying. Perhaps if you asked posters to read the last ten pages of a thread, to write mor than one sentence, to stick to the subject, and to be respectful, you might get more helpful responses even if they disagreed with the thesis of the subject.

Sometimes it's incredibly frustrating to see, what I consider very bigoted theses or language here, on the part of the female posters,....

Listen, I really don't want to get personal, and you know I don't have anything against you personally. But let's be fair, I've heard you saying some fairly choice stuff yourself, so maybe you shouldn't be throwing stones.

clairefontaine wrote: »

and not be able to challenge some of the axioms held in the thesis, because it doesn't concur with the sacred woman's point of view. I am a woman. If my point of view does not glide with another posters does that make it NOT a woman's point of view. Hardly. It's just another woman's point of view.

What sacred woman's point of view? We all know that we women don't all hold the same views on anything; we're all entirely free to disagree with each other and challenge each others statements here. But "what about the men" just isn't appropriate for this forum.

clairefontaine wrote: »

To take of or example, a subject that comes up from time to time. The issue of reporting rape or domestic violence to the police. So many people assume this is a woman's issue. Well it is. But it's also an everyone's issue. The assumption in calling it a woman's issue, is that is that men and children have an easier time reporting their victimisation to the police, which is not the case. Victims across the board have trouble getting the cops to believe them, have trouble with evidence, have trouble in courts and the system. And because of the inherent bias in positing this as a woman's issue exclusively, is it will lead to whataboutery, because that is generally what bias does...it excludes. So you want inclusivity, but then practise exclusionary philosophy.

So I get that frustration also.

Such things as rape and domestic violence are generally referred to as "women's issues" because they a) affect women disproportionately and b) are committed by men disproportionately. And while I would absolutely agree that these things are everybodys issue, tLL is specifically for discussion of these things from our perspective as women.

That doesn't mean we're not aware that these things happen to men too. It doesn't mean that we are ignoring or dismissing men's experiences. It just means that in this particular forum we're looking at the female perspective.

By bringing up the experiences of men in these areas a poster would be shifting focus away from the female perspective needlessly, thereby making tLL the same as any other forum.

If you look at any rape thread on AH you'll find plenty of time, energy and attention being devoted to men's perspectives. TLL is for women's perspectives.

Stheno

starling wrote: »

Listen, I really don't want to get personal, and you know I don't have anything against you personally. But let's be fair, I've heard you saying some fairly choice stuff yourself, so maybe you shouldn't be throwing stones.



What sacred woman's point of view? We all know that we women don't all hold the same views on anything; we're all entirely free to disagree with each other and challenge each others statements here. But "what about the men" just isn't appropriate for this forum.



Such things as rape and domestic violence are generally referred to as "women's issues" because they a) affect women disproportionately and b) are committed by men disproportionately. And while I would absolutely agree that these things are everybodys issue, tLL is specifically for discussion of these things from our perspective as women.

That doesn't mean we're not aware that these things happen to men too. It doesn't mean that we are ignoring or dismissing men's experiences. It just means that in this particular forum we're looking at the female perspective.

By bringing up the experiences of men in these areas a poster would be shifting focus away from the female perspective needlessly, thereby making tLL the same as any other forum.

If you look at any rape thread on AH you'll find plenty of time, energy and attention being devoted to men's perspectives. TLL is for women's perspectives.

I'd pretty much have the same view, sometimes it can be very refreshing to see debate from a female point of view on here in this forum.

And it can be very interesting, we've had plenty of examples against the norm, women who pay maintenance e.g. which has raised awareness of here that it's not just men who pay maintenance.

One small pedantic point though, domestic violence when looked at by gender, does appear to be pretty much 50/50 committed by males/females against their partners, it's far better publicised when it comes to women suffering domestic violence though in terms of awareness. It's been debated a few times on various fora (not AH) on boards, and there are plenty of links to back that up.

starling

Stheno wrote: »

I'd pretty much have the same view, sometimes it can be very refreshing to see debate from a female point of view on here in this forum.

And it can be very interesting, we've had plenty of examples against the norm, women who pay maintenance e.g. which has raised awareness of here that it's not just men who pay maintenance.

One small pedantic point though, domestic violence when looked at by gender, does appear to be pretty much 50/50 committed by males/females against their partners, it's far better publicised when it comes to women suffering domestic violence though in terms of awareness. It's been debated a few times on various fora (not AH) on boards, and there are plenty of links to back that up.

That's not pedantic - I'd say that's pretty damn important! I genuinely didn't know that and it just shows how underpublicised domestic violence against men is! I'm glad you mentioned it, thanks

athtrasna

I've got a very random issue but it's why I rarely post on here. The threads are too big! TLL doesn't seem to get many new threads on a daily basis but it's quite common for threads to run to 10+ pages. In my opinion that makes them too hard to follow. I follow about 12 forums on boards and only two long threads keep my attention, one in rugby and the management company one in Accommodation & Property. There are just too many long threads in TLL for me.

Anyone else feel the same way?

Stheno

athtrasna wrote: »

I've got a very random issue but it's why I rarely post on here. The threads are too big! TLL doesn't seem to get many new threads on a daily basis but it's quite common for threads to run to 10+ pages. In my opinion that makes them too hard to follow. I follow about 12 forums on boards and only two long threads keep my attention, one in rugby and the management company one in Accommodation & Property. There are just too many long threads in TLL for me.

Anyone else feel the same way?

I skim the long threads, now I'm a quick reader so that's an easy solution for me.
But I tend to ignore a lot of the posts and focus on those I am most interested in.

Also are you using the "last unread post" feature? That makes it easier too.

clairefontaine

starling wrote: »

Listen, I really don't want to get personal, and you know I don't have anything against you personally. But let's be fair, I've heard you saying some fairly choice stuff yourself, so maybe you shouldn't be throwing stones..

My point is if you are going to make big statements about the opposite gender, or refer to blogs which to, that are not backed up by numbers and research, it is understandable, for men to want to argue with it, or women to.

I think I have come to the conclusion, that despite being one, I don't know what a woman's point of view actually means or what people here mean by it.

starling

clairefontaine wrote: »

My point is if you are going to make big statements about the opposite gender, or refer to blogs which to, that are not backed up by numbers and research, it is understandable, for men to want to argue with it, or women to.

Yea but there are threads in tLL where detached, or 'academic' discussion of things like that is appropriate and then other threads where it's more about women needing a place where they can post about their experiences without having men drop in and basically drown their voices out, without being told they're overreacting, basically without having someone who's never experienced what they're describing nonetheless try to explain it to them or tell them how they should feel about it.

Pretty much any issue discussed in tLL can also be discussed in the gentlemans club or after hours where posters are free to indulge in as much whataboutery as they like, but tLL gives us a place where we can get on with discussing things that affect us without constantly having to stop and deal with how these things may or may not affect men, how men feel about them, with educating men about them, with justifying to men how we feel about them and why we care about them, and so on ad nauseum.

Basically, the focus here is on women, and although male posters can and do contribute to discussions with positive results, the rules about whataboutery etc keep that focus on women.

IvyTheTerrible

For me, personally, the fact that I brought up "whataboutery" in the feedback thread is absolutely nothing to do with silencing one point of view. I like reading a good debate.

I brought it up because this forum was/is supposed to be a place where women feel comfortable and safe posting. And to be honest, in some threads here lately with the whataboutery I mentioned, no, I don't feel comfortable posting in those threads.

Das Kitty

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

For me, personally, the fact that I brought up "whataboutery" in the feedback thread is absolutely nothing to do with silencing one point of view. I like reading a good debate.

I brought it up because this forum was/is supposed to be a place where women feel comfortable and safe posting. And to be honest, in some threads here lately with the whataboutery I mentioned, no, I don't feel comfortable posting in those threads.

+1

I actually don't really feel like posting in very many threads here anymore.

clairefontaine

starling wrote: »

Yea but there are threads in tLL where detached, or 'academic' discussion of things like that is appropriate and then other threads where it's more about women needing a place where they can post about their experiences without having men drop in and basically drown their voices out, without being told they're overreacting, basically without having someone who's never experienced what they're describing nonetheless try to explain it to them or tell them how they should feel about it.

Pretty much any issue discussed in tLL can also be discussed in the gentlemans club or after hours where posters are free to indulge in as much whataboutery as they like, but tLL gives us a place where we can get on with discussing things that affect us without constantly having to stop and deal with how these things may or may not affect men, how men feel about them, with educating men about them, with justifying to men how we feel about them and why we care about them, and so on ad nauseum.

Basically, the focus here is on women, and although male posters can and do contribute to discussions with positive results, the rules about whataboutery etc keep that focus on women.

That's reasonable enough but if the topics are about men, like saying thousands of men a day are raping women, or feminist men, or anything a about men, then do you consider it changing the subject of someone says, hold on a minute... Lets think about that again.

One thing that bugs me is when an individual prefaces an opinion with "from a woman's point of view..." Or "from a man's point of view...." " No it's not. It's from YOUR point of view, don't try to universalise it as if you can speak for the entirety of your gender.

I'm going to look more into the trending tab issue today if I can.

With regards to the increase in gobshytery from some posters - I ask this; don't feed the trolls!

Please please report the posts and let the mods deal with them, we do try our very best to keep on top of reported posts. Do not enter into discussion with those who appear to be trolling or those who are breaching the charter with whataboutery. Feeding trolls just makes them hang around for longer. Report and ignore is the best way forward for now.

Just to give you a small update - I've opened a discussion with admin regarding the possibility of the trending tab having affecting the forum. You'll have to leave that with us for a while as it could take some time to come to any conclusions.

starling

clairefontaine wrote: »

That's reasonable enough but if the topics are about men, like saying thousands of men a day are raping women, or feminist men, or anything a about men, then do you consider it changing the subject of someone says, hold on a minute... Lets think about that again.

If the topic is the fact that thousands of women are raped every day, let's discuss this from our perspective or talk about how it affects us, then it's not really about men, and we don't need someone dropping in because they're offended that anyone might think they're a rapist. It is a derailment of the thread if we have to stop talking about our own viewpoints in order to explain that we know not all men are rapists. And knowing that you're going to have to defend your own experiences against people who drop in to ask "why didn't you fight back" or "what did you expect to happen when you got drunk/danced with him/went back to his house/fell asleep in his company" makes it harder for people to talk about things that were already hard to talk about in the first place.

If you make a statement that's factually incorrect, someone might (and possibly should) correct you. Like just there when Stheno corrected me about DV. But we all know that that's not whataboutery.

clairefontaine wrote: »

One thing that bugs me is when an individual prefaces an opinion with "from a woman's point of view..." Or "from a man's point of view...." " No it's not. It's from YOUR point of view, don't try to universalise it as if you can speak for the entirety of your gender.

I don't like that either. I especially don't like it when other people point to a particular man or woman's viewpoint and take that to represent the whole gender. If nothing else it's completely illogical.

It's the kind of logical fallacy that a lot of people make: assuming that one experience is representative of a universal truth. For example "all the women I know are bad drivers. Therefore all women are bad drivers." People do it all the time. Like the thread about the bus strike: someone there said "There is a huge increase in the number of people getting free bus passes" and they based this solely on the fact that they themselves had noticed more people using bus passes.

But I do think there's a difference between that and saying something like "as a woman this thing affects me in a different way from how it would affect a man". We do experience things differently and sometimes that difference has to do with what sex we are, so sometimes it's relevant to mention your sex. As long as we keep in mind that not all men or women are the same it's fine.

Well the lovely admins and developers have already sorted this for us and they have removed tLL from the trending forums list. Let's keep an eye and see if it makes any difference.

Thanks for that Ivy, I wouldn't have copped it at all

clairefontaine

I have a question.

Sometimes if not often very big questions and assumptions come up here about men and women. Sometimes references made or links are from other countries, most often the US and the UK.

Is the assumption on this board for an Irish women's point of view? I ask this because its an Irish website. However, its also on the www. And even though its on an Irish website, Ireland still has many people from different countries living in ireland or having lived in Ireland.

The other question is when talking about men and women, is the assumption that you are talking about Irish men and women? And if this is the case, it can be confusing when someone starts a thread using a US or UK link.

Can you clarify?