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PopePalpatine

Come to think of it, this would be a prominent example of trolling using "bless you" in this forum, although then again newmug's posts are pretty much in Fr. McKevitt territory.

KomradeBishop

When the opposing side in a debate stops taking non-fallacious argument seriously, and doesn't even bother to hide when they know their arguments are nonsense, then pejoratives/ridicule are a pretty appropriate response - so long as that is also accompanied by debunking the actual arguments too.

Condescension is pretty commonly used as a substitute for serious/non-fallacious argument, when someone wants to push their view but is trying to drag the debate down/away from evidence/logic and into rhetoric, and that's far more insidious/damaging to discussion than any straight-out pejoratives; if you ban pejoratives/ridicule, and keep the condescension (which there is no practical way to act upon), you hand those people a way to better control the narrative in many discussions, with crappy/condescension-based tactics that go uncontested.

When someone stops taking you seriously like that (in a way that is insulting to all readers intelligence), there's no need to them seriously either - just, you still need to actually respond to their arguments to debunk them, otherwise it's just unconstructive pejoratives.

Benny_Cake

Cabaal wrote: »

Saying "Jesus loves you" and other such nonsense in the atheist forum is borderline trolling and plain and simple its only looking and hoping for a reaction.

If I went into the Catholic forum or Islamic forum and said your god is only in your imagination or "have fun talking to your imaginary friend" I'd very much so expect to be banned or at the very least warned or infracted because my comment would be inflammatory and borderline trolling.

I'd be making a post in a manner that is only simply looking for a reaction, its not constructive.

I think that was the point Czarcasm was making though. I struggle to think of any context where comments such as "Jesus loves you" would be OK in A&A. In most cases it would represent trolling or proselytising. Trolling is out and I'm of the view that people shouldn't be proselytising for Christianity in A&A, for Islam in Christianity, and so on, any more than imaginary friend/sky fairy remarks are acceptable in the Christianity or Islam forums.

Dades

GreeBo wrote: »

Perhaps the mods should just go ahead and remove this part of the forum charter rather than just ignore it?
Taking it out is fine, but right now it only operates in one way.

Can you point out where someone has been refused the right to hold different beliefs? A right to hold a belief is respected... the belief itself doesn't get the same pass.

Or do you think J C was offended by mention of the FSM or blasphemy?

Czarcasm wrote: »

If Atheism and/or secularism is ever to gain any traction in this country, then this forum, being one of the most useful and important resources for Atheists in Ireland, needs to show some leadership and grow up an awful lot and start taking itself more seriously if it wants to be taken seriously by other adults and decision makers, regardless of their religious beliefs, affiliations, or indeed absence thereof.

Interesting point. Though personally I wouldn't be holding out for this place to be some sort of sounding board for anything. It's more of a magnet for the irreligious, which in turn makes the rest of Boards a safer place for people with beliefs. We are somewhere where people can vent about (or simply discuss!) religion without fear of upsetting others. People don't really get that. There is excellent discussion here but we also allow stuff flow from other orifices occasionally.

Secularism is a noble goal, but like with AI, I don't believe as a goal it sits well with Atheism (with a capital A).

Turtwig

Firstly, I feel I should point out that a former mod of the Christianity forum was a staunch secularist. Many devout Christians I know are also secularists. Secularism should never be considered something driven by Atheism. Secularism is much much more and far more important than that. It's the idea that any law or action enforced by the state must be justified by reasoning universal to all humans not just one particular ideology or group of ideologies be those religious or non religious.

Secondly, JC and Lucy have gotten the ultimate hand of leniency a forum can offer. There isn't really much else to say beyond that.

Thirdly, I don't feel that Greebo's "gets" the spirit of this forum. The posts s/he believes to be in breach of the charter really aren't. Even the Christianity forum isn't as a sensitive as they're expecting A&A to be.

Regarding "proselytising". Remarks like "Jesus Loves you". Most of the time these aren't acceptable, there are like everything exceptions. In general any form of soapboxing is frowned upon.

Finally, the mods don't read every post on this forum. Heck, I haven't read the Origin of Specious Nonsense thread in almost a year! Most of the time we just skim stuff. If you feel a discussion is immature or poorly progressing then report the posts. Only this way is there a possibility for threads that feel like chewing glass through a barbed wire to be dealt with. Reported posts draw attention, lack of reported posts leads us to assume most things are functioning adequately and we continue to nibble on our biscuits.

legspin

Turtwig wrote: »

Firstly, I feel I should point out....
.....we continue to nibble on our biscuits.

+1

Can say nothing better.

GreeBo

Dades wrote: »

Can you point out where someone has been refused the right to hold different beliefs? A right to hold a belief is respected... the belief itself doesn't get the same pass.

Or do you think J C was offended by mention of the FSM or blasphemy?

So you dont think referring to someones beliefs as a spaghetti monster is inflammatory or offensive?

Turtwig wrote: »

Secondly, JC and Lucy have gotten the ultimate hand of leniency a forum can offer. There isn't really much else to say beyond that.

"If you're not prepared to do that, then keep your snide comments to yourself lest you get moderated again."
I dont think thats an appropriate way for a mod to speak publically to a poster, whatever the poster does, it should be handled with respect and behind closed doors.

Turtwig wrote: »

Thirdly, I don't feel that Greebo's "gets" the spirit of this forum. The posts s/he believes to be in breach of the charter really aren't. Even the Christianity forum isn't as a sensitive as they're expecting A&A to be.

Oh I get it alright, if you are A or A then you get to rididule those with religious beliefs.
How can calling a devout catholics God a FSM not be offensive or inflammatory?
But hey its fine, because this is A&A and as long as you arent offending an Atheist fire away, charter doesnt apply.

Turtwig

GreeBo wrote: »

Oh I get it alright,

No quite clearly you don't.

Let's take a sample of a post you reported.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=92167285#post92167285

This thread, and the posts by those who seem horrified that a mere child would challenge religious orthodoxy, remind me of two aspects of my childhood:

(1) When my brother made friends with a classmate who was an atheist, of atheist parents. You would think this lad had the plague, such was the panic, and we were actually prohibited from talking to him. What struck me so forcibly at the time was the genuine sense of fear that I picked up from my parents.

(2) Religion class in primary and secondary school was all about indoctrination. There was never any appetite from the teachers to engage or answer questions, all tricky questions were just ignored. In fact any really challenging questions from students (no matter how sincere) could result in official retribution.

I think this panic among parents and teachers boils down to this: religion is, by and large, actually indefensible. There are too many hard questions that a child can ask that simply cannot be answered, instead the child is fobbed off with some waffle about "faith" and "divine mysteries".

It's funny how a small child asking simple questions or making simple statements can so badly expose the insecurities of grown adults.

Reason:
Breach of charter rule 2.
Offensive and inflammatory.

Religious beliefs are not waffle.

---

The post is a perfectly valid opinion. Calling religious beliefs waffle in A&A is perfectly acceptable. Though in this instance, that's not necessarily what the poster meant.

Fwiw, the Christianity forum would require modification of:

"religion is, by and large, actually indefensible." the remarks about waffle would still be acceptable.

And no, I don't regard the notion of God being compared to a flying spaghetti monster as being offensive. It's parody, one I'm not the biggest fan of anymore, but it's certainly not outside the limits of the forum.

Again, fwiw, in Christianity calling God a 'sky fairy' or equivalent would be frowned upon.

Hence, my point that you don't get the spirit of this forum. I hope that contrasting the styles of moderation between the fora has helped illustrate the difference in the fora. Here, any idea whatever that may be including Atheism (you should check out the threads on Atheism+) is open, within reason, to ridicule, mockery, criticism etc. This forum is, among other things, the home for people that don't particular like or agree with religion. Being offended by such remarks is like someone with a penchant for classical music walking into a heavy metal concert and being offended by the obnoxiously loud music!

IT-Guy

GreeBo wrote: »

So you dont think referring to someones beliefs as a spaghetti monster is inflammatory or offensive?



"If you're not prepared to do that, then keep your snide comments to yourself lest you get moderated again."
I dont think thats an appropriate way for a mod to speak publically to a poster, whatever the poster does, it should be handled with respect and behind closed doors.



Oh I get it alright, if you are A or A then you get to rididule those with religious beliefs.
How can calling a devout catholics God a FSM not be offensive or inflammatory?
But hey its fine, because this is A&A and as long as you arent offending an Atheist fire away, charter doesnt apply.

This forum needs a smiley for the sound of satirical belief systems flying over people's heads! Nobody is calling the Christian God the FSM (may sauce be upon him :P) nor using the concept as an insult. I suggest you read up a little more on satire and in in this instance how it has lead to a belief system that satires organised religions.

GreeBo

Turtwig wrote: »

No quite clearly you don't.

Let's take a sample of a post you reported.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=92167285#post92167285


Reason:
Breach of charter rule 2.
Offensive and inflammatory.

Religious beliefs are not waffle.

---

The post is a perfectly valid opinion. Calling religious beliefs waffle in A&A is perfectly acceptable. Though in this instance, that's not necessarily what the poster meant.

Fwiw, the Christianity forum would require modification of:

"religion is, by and large, actually indefensible." the remarks about waffle would still be acceptable.

And no, I don't regard the notion of God being a flying spaghetti monster as being offensive. It's parody, one I'm not the biggest fan of anymore, but it's certainly not outside the limits of the forum.

Again, fwiw, in Christianity calling God a 'sky fairy' or equivalent would be frowned upon.

Hence, my point that you don't get the spirit of this forum. I hope that contrasting the styles of moderation between the fora has helped illustrate the difference in the fora. Here, any idea whatever that may be is open, within reason, to ridicule, mockery, criticism etc. This forum is, among other things, the home for people that don't particular like or agree with religion. Being offended by such remarks is like someone going along to a rapper stand up battle thing and then complaining that they're offended by the remarks made against them.

So what is offensive or inflammatory about sometimes beliefs?
I find FSM offensive.
You call it parody, where is that line?

Why have it in the charter if it doesn't really come into play?
Fwiw, I'm fine with it not being in play, but it seems that anti religious parody is fine, those with pro religious beliefs get shouted down; either it's a forum for everyone or it isn't.
If it isn't then make it like soccer, access must be requested.

GreeBo

IT-Guy wrote: »

This forum needs a smiley for the sound of satirical belief systems flying over people's heads! Nobody is calling the Christian God the FSM (may sauce be upon him :P) nor using the concept as an insult. I suggest you read up a little more on satire and in in this instance how it has lead to a belief system that satires organised religions.

This isn't the comedy or satire forum though, if that's what you want to post then why not post in those fora?
Either that or rename this the religious satire forum.
A&A shouldn't be about religious satire and parody.

oscarBravo

GreeBo wrote: »

I find FSM offensive.

Hotblack Desiato

GreeBo wrote: »

So what is offensive or inflammatory about sometimes beliefs?
I find FSM offensive.

Um, why?
And what you (or indeed I, or anyone else) may take offence or not has no bearing whatsoever on what is within the rules here or not.
One can be offended by anything if one is sufficiently determined.

You call it parody, where is that line?

Parody?
It's a religion, as valid as any other, and frankly it's your anti-FSM view which is judgemental and offensive! You're just lucky the new incitement to hatred law isn't in yet.

Delirium

GreeBo wrote: »

This isn't the comedy or satire forum though, if that's what you want to post then why not post in those fora?
Either that or rename this the religious satire forum.
A&A shouldn't be about religious satire and parody.

Why can't atheists, agnostics or any other group talk about religious satire within this forum? No idea is so sacred that it can't be mocked, or examined critically, in this forum.

There are plenty of topical forums that allow for levity. Why should this forum be any different?

IT-Guy

GreeBo wrote: »

This isn't the comedy or satire forum though, if that's what you want to post then why not post in those fora?
Either that or rename this the religious satire forum.
A&A shouldn't be about religious satire and parody.

Plenty of room and scope within this forum for satire, parody, comedy as well as serious discussion, debate and argument. I don't think anyone has the right to limit discussion to terms or methods only they approve of. I've had serious as well as humorous posts in this forum and love reading the serious and not so serious viewpoints of others here on many topics. We would all lose out were this forum restricted to posts meeting your approval, if I ever feel the need to post in the golf forum then and only then can you tell me how and where to post or dictate what the forum should be about.

Edited to add - this is an example of what I'm talking about, comedy gold in the context of the thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92509420&postcount=1803

Do you find the above offensive or detracts from the discussion?

GreeBo

I reported a post that claimed religion was "made up nonsense"
Perhaps someone could explain the parody aspect that makes that quote non inflammatory and inoffensive?

Benny_Cake

GreeBo wrote: »

I reported a post that claimed religion was "made up nonsense"
Perhaps someone could explain the parody aspect that makes that quote non inflammatory and inoffensive?

Greebo, this is an atheist forum. You have to expect that the majority of posters here think that religion is "made up nonsense". You don't agree with that, neither do I, but if some one can't say that on A&A then they may as well shut the whole thing down.

Bannasidhe

GreeBo wrote: »

I reported a post that claimed religion was "made up nonsense"
Perhaps someone could explain the parody aspect that makes that quote non inflammatory and inoffensive?

Do you also report posts that claim the opposite?

Pherekydes

GreeBo wrote: »

I reported a post that claimed religion was "made up nonsense"

Religion is made up nonsense.

Hotblack Desiato

GreeBo wrote: »

I reported a post that claimed religion was "made up nonsense"
Perhaps someone could explain the parody aspect that makes that quote non inflammatory and inoffensive?

That's as ridiculous as going onto the christian forum and reporting a post that says god's law must be obeyed.
That's an idea I find offensive, but I manage to restrain myself.

GreeBo

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Greebo, this is an atheist forum. You have to expect that the majority of posters here think that religion is "made up nonsense". You don't agree with that, neither do I, but if some one can't say that on A&A then they may as well shut the whole thing down.

So then why pretend that the charter doesn't allow it?
Don't pretend it's an equal forum for all, it's clearly an atheist forum and that's fine, but be open about it. Religion is free to be ridiculed by any means on here, offensive, inflammatory or otherwise.

Thunderdome for religion.

PopePalpatine

Don't worry, you can wreak revenge by continuing to control the schools...and the hospitals...and let's throw in the majority of the Dáil, too.

Nodin

GreeBo wrote: »

So what is offensive or inflammatory about sometimes beliefs?
I find FSM offensive.
................

Why? His tasty noodlyness touches the darkest hearts

Turtwig

Homeopathy is made up nonsense.
Scientology is made up nonsense.
New age natural health care is made up nonsense.
Atheism is made up nonsense.
Libertarianism is made up nonsense.
Evolution is made up nonsense.

And finally religion is made up nonsense.


The above are opinions. We do not get to censor them because the proponents of these ideas may get offended by such remarks. I don't regard any of the above as offensive or inflammatory. Dismissing or criticising ANY idea should never be considered inflammatory or offensive. Unless you wish to live in the dark ages. The reason why I stuck with boards and in particular this forum long enough to become a mod is because it follows the rule that no idea is sacred. That's the "spirit" of this forum everything, including atheism, is open to dismissal and criticism.

shruikan2553

GreeBo wrote: »

I reported a post that claimed religion was "made up nonsense"
Perhaps someone could explain the parody aspect that makes that quote non inflammatory and inoffensive?

All the forums in this section would have to be shut down. The Muslims said Jesus isn't the son of god and the Christians said theyre the only true religion while the pagans....well they don't do much but I'm sure they are offended or offending someone.

GreeBo

Atheists are idiots for not believing in any faith.

Is that not equally inflammatory?
Or is it only a problem because it's against the common theme within AA forum?

Edit the charter to reflect the reality of how the forum is run, it says it's equal but it is not, it's (possibly rightly) biased towards AA beliefs, acknowledge that and be open about it.

Gordon

I can see why our Pastafarian Lord of the Colander could be offensive to some palettes, some diets demand a low carb intake, which totally defies His essence.

Nodin

Gordon wrote: »

I can see why our Pastafarian Lord of the Colander could be offensive to some palettes, some diets demand a low carb intake, which totally defies His essence.

There are those who claim that his essence contain no meatballs, still others that what meat is there is meat in appearance only, and is, in nature, noodly.

GreeBo

Yea!
Biscuits and inward thinking for all at the AA forum.

Nodin

GreeBo wrote: »

Yea!
Biscuits and inward thinking for all at the AA forum.

You've biscuits?