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Turtwig · 03-12-2014 3:26am

First off let me preface this by saying this post is being written from my phone so apologies in advance for any oddities that may arise in its syntax. Most of my boarding is done from my phone but that's another matter. (Moderating through a phone is rather cumbersome)

Any thread on boards typical follows the pattern of several posters posting in the first three pages. Thereafter the number of posters tends to dwindle into the single digits and the thread may continue for a long period. Simply put, assessing post count is not always an accurate way of assessing interest or disinterest in a topic. Any opinion poll in after hours almost overwhelmingly favours towards the anti libertarian. Start a thread about minimum wage and I predict the following. :
A lot of emotive vitriol directed towards those who propose abolishing it.
A staunchly blunt post representing both sides that will be thanked by the respective supporters.
Posters who've seen the topic all before and don't really feel like contributing.
A small select group of posters that will keep the thread going for hundreds and hundreds of posts until a mod closes it.

In politics you expect all demographics to be present. As that's what the forum is for. You'd also expect these views to be less representative of the broader site community. As you would expect boards to not be accurately reflecting attitudes in Ireland.

The atlas shrugged thread has less metrics than the creationism thread in every way. Creationism isn't even an issue in Ireland (The Republic anyway) that should tell you everything you need to know about attitudes to ayn Rand.

Turtwig · 03-12-2014 3:29am

Only if you post interesting stories.

MrPudding · 03-12-2014 9:59am

OK, I want to stay in the A&A forum so when you are kicking out left-leaning (which I am assuming I am) posters to make the mix 'healthy' can I stay please?

Whilst it is a fairly well read thread I am not sure 981 posts and 41k of views of a single thread on a bulletin board is a sufficient sample to form any valid views on 'most people in Ireland.'

But the majority view of people in Ireland is different to the majority view in this particular forum. Unless you are proposing some kind of positive discrimination in favour of the minority view for this forum I can't see what your point is... Do you go to the soccer forum and complain that the majority of posters there prefer football?

As you have said yourself, most of the people on this forum are of a particular outlook, there have been a few political compass threads over the years, check for yourself. This has less to do with the moderators and more to do with you know, the fact that most of the posters on this forum are of a particular outlook.

You mean no other credible explanation other than the vast majority of the poster in this forum happen to hold a particular political viewpoint as compared to other 'healthy' forums where the demographic is more balanced?

MrP

Delirium · 03-12-2014 10:03am

+1

Last political compass results for the forum;

crowdgraphpng.php?Kiwi_In_Ie=-3.6%2C-5.3&The_Chizler=-2.1%2C-4.5&Pherekydes=-6.9%2C-5.9&Sulla_Felix=-3.3%2C-4.8&Orion=-5.6%2C-6.5&Pope_Palpatine=-4.5%2C-6.8&Turtwig=-4.5%2C-7.4&Legspin=-8.3%2C-9.1&Ninja900=-5.3%2C-6.7&Calibos=-7.0%2C10.0&Bluewolf=9.8%2C-7.8&Thedoctor=-1.4%2C-0.8&Absolam=-5.6%2C-2.8&Redfacedbear=-4.3%2C-5.2&Bannasidhe=-6.8%2C-7.3&Skrynesaver=-8.4%2C-4.5&Obliq=-5.4%2C-7.7&Doctor_Doom=-7.0%2C-5.4&Diego_Simeone=-5.0%2C-6.5&Sink=-0.6%2C-5.1&Spacetime=-7.3%2C-8.2&Sw=12.0%2C10.5&Keane=-6.5%2C-6.9&Rughdh=-5.6%2C-8.1&Sciencenerd=-0.8%2C-5.8&Fouxdafafa=-5.4%2C-4.8&Agent_Smith=0.4%2C1.7&Marienbad=-5.9%2C-9.2&Mark_Hamill=-7.0%2C-5.5&Dazmarz=-2.5%2C-1.8&Benny_Cake=-8.8%2C-7.7&Robindch=-4.0%2C-6.4&Wprathead=-6.5%2C-6.8&Ulysses1874=-3.5%2C-5.4&Gvn=6.9%2C-7.0&Pauldla=-4.9%2C-5.9&Oscarbravo=-4.3%2C-7.5&Blowfish=8.3%2C-6.3&Smacl=-4.1%2C-4.6&Recedite=-4.8%2C-1.4&Karl_Stein=-7.5%2C-6.4&G_K=-2.3%2C-6.2&Brian_Shanahan=-10.0%2C-7.8&Tordelback=-7.9%2C-7.3&Fred_Swanson=-3.9%2C-1.6&Bellatori=-3.1%2C-3.8&Jank=10.0%2C-4.5&Nagirrac=-4.5%2C-5.3&Penn=-3.3%2C-6.0&Misty_Moon=-8.0%2C-7.5&mr_a=-6.3%2C-3.2%3Cdiv%20style=

Link to results on charting site

Penn · 03-12-2014 10:05am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpKqMC2YfwI

The reason After Hours and Politics have such different political tones is because they're generally forums which attract the widest possible spectrum of beliefs and political standpoints, and largely represent the general public (who are of an age and mindset to use discussion forums). A&A isn't. It's a forum which attracts certain subsets of the general public. After Hours is for general discussion on a wide range of topics. A&A isn't, it's a forum largely based around discussion of one topic (and topics which derive from it). Politics is for general discussion about one particular topic, but for a wide ranging set of poster. A&A isn't, it's for people who wish to discuss A&A.

After Hours & Politics are nowhere near comparable forums. Guess what, the majority of the posters on Conspiracy Theories are kinda distrustful of governments. Have the mods there fostered some sort of government-hating culture, or is the CT forum simply somewhere that people of that general mindset discuss topics?

You're saying that the mods own political and personal opinions have meant that the forum fosters this view. Rather, the majority of the posters (including the mod) may have this view, and that's why it's prevalent on the forum.

It's the forum regulars/majority who give an overall representation of the forum, not the political or personal views of one mod, and frankly it's ridiculous to suggest that he somehow wields this almighty power.

MrPudding · 03-12-2014 10:12am

Dude! Look where you are! Banned. Sh1t, I can't ban people.

MrP

Delirium · 03-12-2014 10:12am

:pac:

Hotblack Desiato · 03-12-2014 10:19am

These political surveys are all very Americanocentric though - they misrepresent as 'far left' what would be a centrist view in Ireland or indeed Europe. They ask questions about 'hot button' issues in America which are broadly accepted and non-controversial in Europe.

So Permabear your complaint is not only that A&A is 'left leaning' by US standards, but so is boards, so is Ireland and so is most of Europe and much of the world.

There must be quite a few posters here who certainly don't consider themselves left-wing, I don't, but who come out well left of centre in these surveys.

Indeed and a moderator is allowed hold and express a view within the rules same as any other poster.

Outside of libertarian circles, her books are generally held to be awful. It's not only a 'left' opinion.

KomradeBishop · 03-12-2014 12:53pm

Ya good point on how the survey shifts the whole spectrum of 'left vs right' rightwards. That's the trouble with the term 'left-wing' and 'right-wing' - 'the left' today is so weak ideologically and co-opted politically/economically (towards business and corrupted-union - rather than worker - interests, and support of neoclassical/market economics), that a lot of what people consider 'left wing' today, is actually just a 'lighter' version of right-wing market economics and business/state cronyism.

'The left' is so weak today on economic issues, that pretty much all economic discussion is shifted rightwards - left-leaning economic arguments, tend to get stuck on 'tax the rich' type discussion, as a solution to economic funding problems, which is extremely misguided (that will never be a solution for funding - though there are good non-funding reasons to push that); because 'the left' has adopted the neoclassical/neoliberal way of framing economic issues, that's pretty much trapped 'the left' into a limited range of policy options, that will never work in their favour (just unravel a lot of what 'the left' have gained, each time there's an economic crisis).

Permabear · 03-12-2014 3:04pm

This post has been deleted.

KomradeBishop · 03-12-2014 3:34pm

Reads like a call to have a more 'balanced' forum, where 'balance' means giving equal credibility to all sides, whether or not it is merited - which is fallacious:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Balance_fallacy

On an Atheist/Agnostic forum, where posters are presumably well equipped with critical thinking abilities, and have little patience for religious woo, I would expect the exact opposite - that people will not give equal credibility to all viewpoints/ideas (e.g. many aspects of Christianity/Islamism will get short-shrift), where it is not merited - and on the forum this extends well beyond religious views as well, to all aspects of society/politics/economics.

It's a bit like this description on the above wiki page - Politics is more like Wikipedia in avoiding the balance fallacy, A&A is more like RationalWiki

That's one of the things I like most about A&A: Nonsense/woo of all forms, is dissected and pilloried without discrimination - there's no mod conspiracy rooting against any one group, just a forum where a strong critical thinking and skeptic ability exists among posters, that is naturally hostile to nonsense.

Anything that changed or curtailed that critical-thinking/skeptic atmosphere of the forum, would damage it quite a lot - and it's not surprising that groups given short-shrift by it, would want to try and curtail it indirectly, by making it out as a mod issue and pushing for a change in moderation, to try and achieve the above fallacious 'balance'.

robindch · 03-12-2014 4:04pm

I have, repeatedly. And without looking back through this thread, or other similar ones, I believe other moderators and other posters have too.

If you have an issue with forum moderation by one or more forum moderators to the extent you have, then I suggest you take the issue up in feedback where you can make your case concerning what you believe is a "hostile environment".

Before doing so, I would politely suggest you consider whether reality's so-called "liberal/left-wing bias" might be distorting your view of things.

Nodin · 03-12-2014 4:04pm

Are we going to rename this thread "Grudge Bearing Finals 2014"?

Penn · 03-12-2014 5:05pm

Again, it's not the forum which leans one way or the other politically, it's the forum users, as demonstrably proven by the graph posted by SW. Robinch is neither in control nor trying to shift people towards that political leaning, it's simply the way the forum regulars lean, individually, through their own reasoning.

Robinch is, as is the case with all mods, a poster first and foremost. Poster first, mod second. He is perfectly entitled to voice his opinions and discuss whatever points he chooses to do so. Maybe the reason some posters may feel like they're being "ganged up on" is because their opinion isn't shared by the majority of the forum posters who challenge their opinions. The mods have got nothing to do with it unless there are breaches of the forum charter or site rules.

If you feel that strongly about it, go to a CMod. You've complained about this before. If you genuinely think there's a problem with the moderation of the forum and that your issues still aren't being addressed after both forum mods have replied to you on this thread, contact a CMod.

Permabear · 03-12-2014 5:37pm

This post has been deleted.

Penn · 03-12-2014 5:54pm

You have absolutely no basis for saying that the political views of either robinch or the majority of the existing forum users has in any way resulted in any tangible number of posters not contributing to the forum. Absolutely no basis whatsoever.

What leads you to believe that there would be a significant group of posters who would otherwise post here? Not just a few right-wing posters, but a significant group?

robindch · 03-12-2014 5:59pm

As above, you should really take your allegations concerning "baiting" and abuse of the position by forum moderators etc, etc to the feedback forum where they'll be reviewed by senior site admins.

There isn't much point in continuing to repeat your allegations here since -- if the local mods are as dreadfully one-sided as you're making out -- they'll continue to be ignored.

Alternatively, if you really don't like the forum, well, perhaps you should consider posting where your views aren't open to challenge. This might suit you a little better than A+A, where they are.

Permabear · 03-12-2014 5:59pm

This post has been deleted.

KomradeBishop · 03-12-2014 6:03pm

I could probably assume that a lot of Christians don't feel comfortable posting here either, but that doesn't mean they are being persecuted or are a victim of moderator bias (even though mods are very likely to have an actual bias against their views).

Penn · 03-12-2014 6:04pm

Okay, so it's either the old Girlfriend in Canada excuse, or this "significant group" is about maybe 3 other posters.

Cabaal · 03-12-2014 6:37pm

I don't feel comfortable in the Christianity forum, clearly there's something wrong with the forum

keane2097 · 03-12-2014 6:55pm

I would imagine for every friend that won't post here because Robindch is orchestrating lampooning of right leaning posters, there are nominally left leaning posters who would be only too happy to read the alternative.

I know for a fact I've thanked more than one post by jank in the politics forum.

If as much time was spent posting views as posting complaining about views being mocked things would probably be better.

Brian Shanahan · 03-12-2014 7:37pm

Honestly I wouldn't the numbers to be as large as the PFJ. The PLFJ maybe, but not the PFJ.

Turtwig · 03-12-2014 8:01pm

Mod:

This discussion has been done to death, resurrected and done to death again. Clearly no resolution is going to emerge from this thread. The logical step is to take it to CMods or feedback. Though personally I can't see them offering any better resolution.

Dades · 04-12-2014 11:47am

You just jumped the shark right there.

MrPudding · 04-12-2014 11:59am

He may even have nuked the fridge.

MrP

fisgon · 09-12-2014 9:51pm

Can I just ask, are there any criteria to decide what threads are relevant in A&A, or is it the case that pretty much anything goes on this forum, whether it is connected to atheism, agnosticism or religion or not?

We have a "left wing loonies" thread, and now we have two spin off threads from this thread that had nothing to do with this forum in the first place, "gender quotas" and "individual liberties...".

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask that on a forum called "Atheism and Agnosticism", the threads have something to do with one of the two topics in the title.

Turtwig · 10-12-2014 2:51am

The forum is largely a community based forum so anything goes- within reason:

The "within reason" criteria is rather complicated.
I'll use hurling as an example.
Start a thread on where to buy a Hurley: moved elsewhere.
Start a thread asking who plays hurling: acceptable but will be monitored closely.
A discussion ensues asking about where to buy Hurley's creating a spin off thread : now the topic becomes acceptable. It's just housecleaning the other thread. Keeping both strands of ideas separate. Even still, this thread may be moved considering the direction it takes.

Now hurling is an activity. So let's take a debate topic.
Start a thread on parenting autistic kids: this thread may most likely be moved. However should the OP make a strong case for keeping it in a and a it that likelihood may decrease to the point that the thread is allowed to stay provisionally.
Should such a thread emerge as a spin off it would be less likely to be moved but still could go either way.

Proportional volume is also important. If a and a was saturated with hurling threads that would be unacceptable. If it's only the odd thread among far more relevant ones then it's more acceptable.

Basically everything is assessed on a case by case basis. The blatantly wrong stuff is moved the stuff lying in the grey area is very often given a chance to see if it can establish a foothold. If it can't it's moved to other pastures or closed.

I hope that helps clarify stuff a little. Douglas Adams would have a field day explaining our vogon like topic relevantator.

keane2097 · 12-12-2014 1:23pm

Just wanted to say that while they're probably a little off-topic and all, the left wing thread and the couple of spin-offs have been great so far.

legspin · 12-12-2014 1:51pm

Not as off-topic as you may think. They are dealing with topics of a moral and ethical nature. We just discuss them without religion having any say in the matter.

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