About time I upgraded

corblimey · 02-10-2012 3:07pm #1

I was sort of shocked to discover last night that both my PCs are now 5 years old. One is running Vista and various apps crash regularly, the other is XP, and while it's not used all year round, it is used for extended periods at a time (2-3 weeks, then off for a few months). I don't think the XP machine needs to be replaced, but if I get a good deal, I might upgrade both.

1. What is your budget? up to €1000

2. What will be the main purpose of the computer? Internet/Music/Watching Movies

3. Do you need a copy of Windows? Yes/Win 7

4. Can you use any parts from an old computer? Both old PCs are shop-bought HPs, so I don't know how well they lend themselves to cannibalising. I assume some RAM and the HD are reusable, but I'm not going to rely on that.

5. Do you need a monitor? No

5b. If no, what resolution is your current monitor and do you plan to upgrade in the near future? 1920x1080 and No

6. Do you need any of these peripherals? No, I'm happy with my current peripherals

7. Are you willing to try overclocking? Sure

8. How can you pay? Bank Transfer/Credit Card/Laser, all of the above

9. When are you purchasing? Before Xmas

10. If you need help building it, where are you based? East Cork, but I'm willing to try it myself first.

I've compiled a small list, but this isn't based on anything solid, I don't even know if these parts play well together, are necessary for my decidely low needs or if I'm missing anything important.

Component|Item|Price|
Processor|Intel Core i5-3470 3.3GHz|174.00|http://www1.hardwareversand.de/Socket+1155/66369/Intel+Core+i5-3470+Box%2C+LGA1155.article
Motherboard|Asus P8Z77-V LK|122.84|http://www1.hardwareversand.de/DDR3/60079/ASUS+P8Z77-V+LK%2C+Sockel+1155%2C+ATX%2C+DDR3.article
Memory|8GB-Kit Corsair Vengeance Low Profile schwarz PC3-12800U CL9|36.23|http://www1.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=48850&agid=1193
Graphics|MSI GeForce GTX 660 Ti Power Edition|281.24|http://www1.hardwareversand.de/2048MB/63717/MSI+N660Ti+Power+Edition+2GD5+OC%2C+GeForce+GTX+660Ti%2C+2048MB+DDR5.article
Storage|OCZ Agility 3 120GB|82.94|http://www1.hardwareversand.de/Solid-State-Disk/46680/OCZ+Agility+3+120GB+6%2C4cm+%282%2C5%29+SATA3.article
|WD Caviar Green 2TB Sata 6Gb/s|92.39|http://www1.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=46255&agid=1342
|Asus DRW-24B1ST|19.03|http://www1.hardwareversand.de/S-ATA/59333/ASUS+DRW-24B5ST+Retail.article
Audio|Asus Xonar DSX|49.99|http://www1.hardwareversand.de/7.1/58836/ASUS+Xonar+DSX+PCI-Express.article
Enclosure|NZXT H2|145.80|http://www1.hardwareversand.de/Midi/66917/Special+item%3A+Corsair+Special+Edition+White+Graphite+Series+600T%2C+ATX%2C+ohne+Netzteil.article
Power supply|Super-Flower Amazon 80Plus 450W|43.18|http://www1.hardwareversand.de/400+-+500+Watts/30074/Super-Flower+Amazon+80Plus+450W.article
Total||1047.64|

Monotype · 02-10-2012 7:17pm

I'd say get a 3570K instead for overclocking.
http://www1.hardwareversand.de/Socket+1155/56296/Intel+Core+i5-3570K+Box%2C+LGA1155.article

Let's see, where can we salvage money for that... Do you need that sound card? Onboard sound isn't bad these days but it depends on how fussy you are.

You could save a little on the motherboard too - is there any features that you want on the motherboard? Are you thinking of SLI down the road?... but the PSU wouldn't match with that, unless you upgraded that too.

I'd go with Crucial M4/Samsung 830 SSDs instead as these will perform much better with all types of data (rather than just compressible).

corblimey · 02-10-2012 8:04pm

Tks for the response, Monotype.

Ok, so to change the processor to this
http://www2.hardwareversand.de/Socket+1155/56296/Intel+Core+i5-3570K+Box%2C+LGA1155.article?lb

And the SSD to this
http://www2.hardwareversand.de/Solid-State-Disk/46110/Crucial+M4+128GB+SSD+6%2C4cm+%282%2C5%29.article

Would the onboard sound be good enough for tv, movies and music? I don't need anything major, just be able to hear the thing, dagnammit. If you think it would cope well, I'll drop the soundcard.

As for the motherboard, this is one area where I have no idea what I need. Is the one I chose no good? Too good? Mismatched? I'm open to suggestions.

Monotype · 02-10-2012 8:18pm

Yeah, most people use onboard sound nowadays.

Motherboard, it's not a bad one as it has some good features. Just if you wanted to save a bit:

http://www1.hardwareversand.de/DDR3/59321/ASRock+Z77+Pro4-M%2C+Sockel+1155%2C+mATX.article
http://www1.hardwareversand.de/DDR3/59322/ASRock+Z77+Pro3%2C+Sockel+1155%2C+ATX.article
http://www1.hardwareversand.de/DDR3/57133/MSI+Z77A-G45%2C+Intel+Z77%2C+ATX%2C+DDR3.article

marco_polo · 02-10-2012 8:39pm

Don't think a dedicated graphics cards is needed at all here, (No mention of any gaming requirements in the Op?).

corblimey · 02-10-2012 8:50pm

I don't really play games on my PC, preferring to sit on a couch and play with a console controller. Now and then, I take a fancy to a new PC game, but it's not my focus. So can I/should I replace the GeForce with something a bit cheaper?

As for motherboards, I'm liking the look of the Pro 4-m. I see some things online about it not playing nice with all RAM, but I can't see the Corsairs in the 'approved list'?

PS: I assume I don't need extra cooling?

PPS: I notice the Pro 4-m only has 1 SATA-600 port (another 2 are marked as SATA-600 (RAID) but I don't know what that means). Since both the SSD and the HD are SATA-600, do I need something a bit better motherboard-wise? Or can those 2 RAID ports be used for the HD or SSD aswell? Sorry to be dumb.

Monotype · 02-10-2012 10:46pm

Most problems with RAM tends to be with RAM that's >1.5V.
The one you picked is 1.5V so I wouldn't expect issues.

It doesn't make much difference whether the hard drive is on SATA 6Gbps or not since they don't need those kinds of speeds.

There's 4 SATA 6Gbps ports in total. 2 in one set and then the other two are split between an internal one and external. Nearly all Intel motherboards only have 4 6Gbps max - and they're in sets of two so you can't do RAID 5 or 10 across them. This is one area that AMD are better at.
They just call one pair 6Gbps RAID to let you know that you can do RAID 0 or RAID 1 on them.

Oh, a new version of the macho. I wonder if it's any easier to install. How about the true spirit?
http://www1.hardwareversand.de/Intel+AMD/52672/Thermalright+True+Spirit+120.article

Yeah, you should probably cut back on the graphics card. So a few games now and then? Do you like settings near max? What about something like a 7850? If it's just trying out a few games and you're not worried about detail much, a 7770 would do.

U_Fig · 02-10-2012 11:20pm

To be honest €1000 is very high budget without gaming..Although you can use a PS3 / Xbox 360 controller on your PC via Adapters...if you get such a high end GPU....

corblimey · 02-10-2012 11:29pm

Tks for your continued help, Monotype.

Monotype wrote: »

It doesn't make much difference whether the hard drive is on SATA 6Gbps or not since they don't need those kinds of speeds.

There's 4 SATA 6Gbps ports in total. 2 in one set and then the other two are split between an internal one and external. Nearly all Intel motherboards only have 4 6Gbps max - and they're in sets of two so you can't do RAID 5 or 10 across them. This is one area that AMD are better at.
They just call one pair 6Gbps RAID to let you know that you can do RAID 0 or RAID 1 on them.

Right, I need to read up on this, because I have no idea what any of that means

It sounds like you're saying I won't have any problem connecting my SSD and my HDD to the board? What about a second HDD?

I like the True Spirit, looks like a winner, but is cooling really necessary - is it going to add unnecessary noise to my setup?

Will this be alright for a graphics card? Or spend the extra 40 for the 2gig version?

Edit: on preview, U_fig, I'm open to ideas, my last few PCs have been shop bought (from PC World) so that's where my budget was. If I can get a nice fast well equipped PC that doesn't need to be high end for gaming, and chop a couple hundred off, I'll be happy.

corblimey · 03-10-2012 2:02pm

Monotype · 03-10-2012 3:39pm

corblimey wrote: »

I like the True Spirit, looks like a winner, but is cooling really necessary - is it going to add unnecessary noise to my setup?

It'll keep your noise down. You need to have a heatsink on the CPU and Intel's one is not quiet.

If it's silence you're after, you should take a look at the Fractal Design Define R4 case.

Just get the 1GB card, it's not going to make much difference and it's not worth €40 extra here.

If you've got more money, maybe a 256GB SSD? How much programs do you tend to have? Maybe not necessary if you don't have many and since you don't go for games that much.

corblimey · 03-10-2012 4:43pm

I have a fair few programs I need to install (I have a copy of every browser, some graphics packages, some video stuff, etc), so I think the extra 40 quid for twice as much space is money well spent.

One question: currently I shy away from watching 720p movies and tv - it stutters and crashes on my current pc - would the 1gig gpu be able to deal better with it?

corblimey · 03-10-2012 4:56pm

Monotype wrote: »

If it's silence you're after, you should take a look at the Fractal Design Define R4 case.

I'm not too concerned about noise, I wear headphones most of the time, but I am concerned about getting my big awkward man hands into the case in order to fit everything I need. Is there a cheaper alternative that has plenty of space and will fit all my components?

Monotype · 03-10-2012 5:40pm

corblimey wrote: »

One question: currently I shy away from watching 720p movies and tv - it stutters and crashes on my current pc - would the 1gig gpu be able to deal better with it?

You can run 1080P on integrated graphics of what's for sale now. That card will easily handle that.

corblimey · 03-10-2012 7:14pm

Thanks Monotype, I've to sort out a few things at the weekend, wrt what sort of cables I need to get dual monitor working on (I think one of my monitors has a DVI connection, but I'm not going to start messing with just now) but then I can see getting my act together with hwvs pretty quickly. I found out today my nephew is also looking to build his own PC (a fairly meaty gaming rig) so I just have to be done before him

Monotype · 03-10-2012 7:24pm

You'll need a few extra SATA cables for that build. You'll usually get 2 and you need 4.

That motherboard has VGA, DVI and HDMI connectors. You can use any two of those for two monitors. You can't use all three at the same time, I think.

Edit: Sorry was thinking that you were running on onboard graphics-
the 7770 has 2 DVIs, 1 HDMI and a Displayport. For dual monitor, you can connect to any two. For three monitors, one has to be connected to the displayport connector. If you want to use a VGA connection, you can use an adapter on one of the DVI connectors.

Edit 2: Pictures of these connectors are in the monitor guide.

corblimey · 03-10-2012 8:24pm

Is the case overkill? Instead of the Graphite, I could save myself 60 odd euro by going for the Carbide (http://www2.hardwareversand.de/Midi/57761/Corsair+Carbide+Series+300R%2C+ATX%2C+ohne+Netzteil.article, or http://www2.hardwareversand.de/Midi/48719/Corsair+Carbide+Series+400R%2C+ATX%2C+ohne+Netzteil.article?)

PS: The more I look at hwvs and other sites, the more I start going "what if..." and "but then...", so I really will stop with the questions.

Monotype · 03-10-2012 8:32pm

I don't really like the 300R - it's a bit too boxy. I think the 400R is a bit better. To be honest, I'm not hugely gone on Corsair's cases.

I'd probably go for a microATX case myself since I've had my fill of big towers.
http://www2.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?&aid=49191

corblimey · 03-10-2012 8:54pm

Monotype · 03-10-2012 9:10pm

Yeah, I'd say it's a nice case. It has soundproofing and I know the bigger R3 from them is great.

Only thing is the sound card, whether you think you need it or not. It's compatible anyway as it's PCI-E and you have a few of those slots (you can put it in the full length ones if the graphics card covers the small PCI-E x1 slot).

corblimey · 03-10-2012 9:29pm

Heheh, the soundcard is one of the things unchanged since my original list, so I had forgotten all about it. I'm not altogether sure I need one, but for 50 quid, it's only going to add to the quality I get from my movies and music, right? And as you say, I should have the room regardless.

marco_polo · 03-10-2012 9:56pm

corblimey wrote: »

Heheh, the soundcard is one of the things unchanged since my original list, so I had forgotten all about it. I'm not altogether sure I need one, but for 50 quid, it's only going to add to the quality I get from my movies and music, right? And as you say, I should have the room regardless.

Thing is a 50 euro soundcard is unlikely to be of much if any better quality than the onboard. If anything to improve your audio experience the money would be better put towards higher quality speakers or headphones. I'd probably just go with the onboard and only get a dedicated card if you were unhappy with it for some reason.

For my build ended up getting a dedicated card afterwards because I was having issues with electromagnetic interference (presumeably due to poor/inadequate audio shielding on the motherboard), but by default I'd definately give the onboard a chance, especially on a mid/high end motherboard.

corblimey · 03-10-2012 11:31pm

marco_polo wrote: »

but by default I'd definately give the onboard a chance, especially on a mid/high end motherboard.

I think you're right, I read up a little bit and it seems these days, the onboard is pretty good. I suspect that 6 months from now, I'll have a list as long for all the upgrades I want and need, so will stick with the basics for now.

Oh, and I realised I had the wrong version of Win7 on my list, the SB version (which I assume to mean 'System Builders') is nearly 50 quid cheaper!

corblimey · 04-10-2012 12:59pm

Right, one more thing: I don't think I need to bother with overclocking for the forseeable, based on what I know about it and what I know about my own computing needs. So rather than the 3570K, I'm thinking the 3450 will suffice?

Monotype · 04-10-2012 10:38pm

Welllllllll... I think it's a good idea to have the 3570K there anyway. You might decide in a year's time that you'd like to give overclocking a go. With the 3570K, you'll be pretty much at the top of the food chain for that socket and it's unlikely that we'll see any more big releases from Intel for it.

Overclocking this CPU is really easy and you can squeeze some extra life out of a system a few years down the road even if you're not sure what about doing it or if you want it do it now. It increases the resale value too.

It keeps your options open.

corblimey · 05-10-2012 11:51am

Ok, might have to throw the cat amongst the pigeons a little. I forgot completely that I'm probably going to buy the new SimCity when it comes out next year. I might not, and if it pumps up my spec too much to cover it, I won't bother, but I'd like to see what I need to add in order to play it. The specs given are:

Processor|AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual-Core 4000+ or better
|Intel Core 2 Duo Processor 2.0 GHz or better
Operating System|Windows XP/Vista/7
RAM|Windows Vista and Windows 7: 2GB
|PCs using a built-in graphical chipset are recommended to have 2 GB RAM
Graphics Card|ATI X1800 or better
|nVidia 7800 or better*
|Intel 4100 Integrated Graphics or better*
DVD-ROM|8x or better
*Minimum of 256 MB of on-board RAM and Shader 3.0 or better support.

These are likely specs and might change, but taking this list, I believe I'm covered on Processor (the 3570 is 3.4 Ghz and Quad-core); OS, RAM and DVD are fine; that just leaves the gpu - the 1gig should be enough, but I don't see any mention of "Shader" support.

Also I don't want to put it all together, buy the game next year, and have it moping along. If it's going to cost me an extra couple hundred to get a decent framerate, so be it, but what exactly should I be looking at?

Monotype · 05-10-2012 12:27pm

7800 and X1800 are old cards. Shader support refers to Pixel Shader Version 3 which was a feature of DirectX 9.0c, but not present in earlier versions. We're on DirectX 11 now and it's fully supported by the 7770 (shader version 5). You'd be talking about cards that are over five generations old.

The 7800GT and X1800 were top cards in their day but a 7770 would be twice as powerful now, probably a good bit more.

corblimey · 05-10-2012 12:39pm

Yeah, I'm not sure at all about those specs. I suspect it's far too early and it's really just 'well this might work'. I think I'll go ahead with my build as is, and sure if SimCity doesn't work on it next year, that just leaves more time to not play SimCity

corblimey · 05-10-2012 4:33pm

Darn.

The ASUS EAH7770-DC-1GD5 V2, AMD Radeon HD 7770, 1GB, PCI-Express is due back in stock on the 9th (next Wednesday) and the Super-Flower Amazon 80Plus 450W is due back on the 10th.

Is it worth waiting for them, or are there suitable alternatives? To make it a little trickier, the Thermalright True Spirit 120 only has 1 left right now, which I assume will be sold before next Thursday. If that goes out of stock, are there more suitable alternatives for that aswell?

Basically, should I wait until my gpu and psu are back in stock and take a chance that I can pick up an alternative cooling kit next Thursday? Or change the psu and gpu now and get it out the door?

Monotype · 05-10-2012 5:04pm

Arctic Freezer 13 Pro would do for the heatsink.
Just pick another 7770.
PSU is a bit harder... next best one up is really the 550W one. If you were to go down, the Antec ones are OK, but the amazon would be better.

corblimey · 07-10-2012 9:53am

I put in my order on friday evening and paid by online transfer as soon as I got the confirmation email. I didn't really expect to have any updates over the weekend, but just looking at my basket notice now, 2 items are due back in stock next week and one is saying 'delivery date unknown'. The confirm email I got stated everything was 'ready for dispatch'.

I'm happy to wait for a week for the whole order, but the 'unknown' one - the Thermalright 120 - what will tend to happen there? Will they sit on the order until they've got stock, or just send everything out but the heatsink?

About time I upgraded

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