renting dead money

Monty Burnz

ted1 wrote: »

I bought in June, at the end of the month i'm 210 Euro better off than I was when.I was renting on.a house thats not as good as the one I bought.Also the value of my house has gone up. Win win for me.

Yikes - it's the return of the smug property buyer!! :eek:

A word of advice for your mental health: don't pay attention to the short-term fluctuations in the perceived value of your house. It's probably going nowhere but down for the next few years.

ted1

MadsL wrote: »

Shhhhh!!! I'm trying to sell him a loan as he now need to "release the equity in his home"

No i'm doing grand, i'm actually up money since I stopped renting. No need to release money.

Monty Burnz

ted1 wrote: »

yes, adults really want to live their parents.

How is that relevant? We don't always get what we want, we deal with competing needs and limited resources. Some people (although not you?) would rather live at home and have money for clothes and clubbing than live in a cheap rental and sit at home staring at the walls all day.

ted1

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Yikes - it's the return of the smug property buyer!! :eek:

A word of advice for your mental health: don't pay attention to the short-term fluctuations in the perceived value of your house. It's probably going nowhere but down for the next few years.

I was paying close to 15k renting. I'm paying 10.5k in mortgage it can drop a good bit and i'm much better off.

DylanII

MadsL wrote: »

What if I told you you could get a better return on your mortgage payments by investing it elsewhere?

Go ahead, where could I get a better return?

1000 per month for the next 35 years. That would be 420,000 just in the deposits. You would then have to return that money to me plus make up for the 1200 per month (rent) which is 504, 000 so a return of 924,000 just to break even.

This investment would then have to be very low risk. The likely hood of prices falling further are extremely low and so makes property a very good and safe investment at the moment. Even if the value of your property was 0 at the end of your 35 years you will still have saved 84,000.

Monty Burnz

ted1 wrote: »

I was paying close to 15k renting. I'm paying 10.5k in mortgage it can drop a good bit and i'm much better off.

Do you mind sharing a bit of info? As in, what type of place you were renting, and where, and what type of place you moved to (and where).

Congrats on your new home, hope it works out for you.

ted1

Monty Burnz wrote: »

How is that relevant? We don't always get what we want, we deal with competing needs and limited resources. Some people (although not you?) would rather live at home and have money for clothes and clubbing than live in a cheap rental and sit at home staring at the walls all day.

can I ask how old you are, not many people over 20 would want to live with there parents

Monty Burnz

DylanII wrote: »

The likely hood of prices falling further are extremely low and so makes property a very good and safe investment at the moment.

On the contrary, I think it is extremely likely that most property in Ireland has another 30% or so to fall from here (depending on many variables, of course - perhaps a sudden US boom or something would change my mind). The good news is that it is falling from a much lower base, so buyers will lose less.

ted1

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Do you mind sharing a bit of info? As in, what type of place you were renting, and where, and what type of place you moved to (and where).

Congrats on your new home, hope it works out for you.

3 bed semi d in killiney, the two houses are 200m away from each other. The house I bought is in a nice estate that is traditionally mre expensive.

Monty Burnz

ted1 wrote: »

can I ask how old you are, not many people over 20 would want to live with there parents

I lived with my parents when I was in my mid-twenties. It suited me fine at the time, and I could see a time when I would do it in future too.

But what I do is irrelevant - the point is that if rents increase, some people will opt not to rent at all, reducing demand. That's economics 101.

Monty Burnz

ted1 wrote: »

3 bed semi d in killiney, the two houses are 200m away from each other. The house I bought is in a nice estate that is traditionally mre expensive.

Bayview? I was looking at that area myself, but I'd rather be closer to town if I live in Dublin.

ted1

Was Bayview, now seafield. Grew up in Terenure but prefer out here, 2 little girls love the beach, office is in bray.

Monty Burnz

ted1 wrote: »

Was Bayview, now seafield. Grew up in Terenure but prefer out here, 2 little girls love the beach, office is in bray.

Ah, dead handy. You're going the opposite way to most of the traffic. And I see you got it at a very good price too - no wonder your mortgage is so low.

Halloran springs

Lacey Creamy Potato wrote: »

Do you not think the property tax is going to passed on by landlords?

Also you cant compare a fairly small fee every year being paid after a mortgage is paid off to paying full rent.

I don't believe for a second that property tax will remain a "fairly small fee", (based on how other countries operate) eventually it will be between 1% and 2% of the property price every year. So it will become very significant in the future.

starlit

It probably is but its better than be held for dear life by a mortgage! It might be money down the drain but its better until property prices improve. At least you know how much you are paying on a weekly/monthly basis! You can at least know what you are paying into from what ever income you have and you know you can afford the place even if its renting! So what!

Logical Fallacy

Kyrie Hallowed Gloom wrote: »

Is it even possible to buy a reasonably sized, modest house for a small family without taking out a fifty year, 100% mortgage?

I just bought a reasonably priced, modest house for cash.

So yeah.

apache

The negative equity thread is really fun too.

nacimroc

Halloran springs wrote: »

I don't believe for a second that property tax will remain a "fairly small fee", (based on how other countries operate) eventually it will be between 1% and 2% of the property price every year. So it will become very significant in the future.

You think the charge will be €10k/yr on a 500k house? It will go up obviously, but you can't compare it to the US or UK (Completely difference taxation system and services supplied and the same for the UK).

As for dead money renting, there are times and arguments for both cases. Great to rent for last few years, great time not to rent now.

MadsL

DylanII wrote: »

Go ahead, where could I get a better return?

1000 per month for the next 35 years. That would be 420,000 just in the deposits. You would then have to return that money to me plus make up for the 1200 per month (rent) which is 504, 000 so a return of 924,000 just to break even.

This investment would then have to be very low risk. The likely hood of prices falling further are extremely low and so makes property a very good and safe investment at the moment. Even if the value of your property was 0 at the end of your 35 years you will still have saved 84,000.

No need to stretch too far.

If you had borrowed $300k into Gold in 1999 with interest only repayments at 1250 (30 year term) you could have sold at $1.1m now and cleared $920k profit.

From that profit deduct $172k in rent payments made and put that back in the bank. Go shopping for your $748k house. Pay cash.

On the other hand your $300k house costs you $635,905.20 over 30 years and that assumes you fix your mortgage for 30 years.

Now - risky strategy, but property is far from the only game in town, if you can put your money to use where it will achieve a higher rate of return, generally you should.

The stock market has returned almost all of its losses since the Lehrmann's crash, the same is far from true for property.

Rigol

Most of us haven't been 'smart' or stupid in our decisions about property anyway.
That was 90% dictated to us by life. You're not going to be buying if you're a youngster from the country who moved to Dublin with for a college course and stayed there for a related job....in which case buying might not be a good idea.


Or you probably won't be renting if you have 5 kids and have a long history with a single company which is local to where you and your other half grew up and where your kids are attending school...in which case buying might be a good idea.

its all subjective and depends on your age, ambitions and financial stuff beyond your control. man plans god laughs, some youngwan who forced drink on you and took advantage of your innocence might turn round and tell you shes having your kids, or your aunt who you were sure hated you may have taken sympathy on your sorry ass in her will and left you fifty grand.

it all just a big monopoly game.

the_syco

wendell borton wrote: »

We should revert back to a cave men lifestyle. Go hunter gathering and live in a cave no expenses then.

Well, caves are on land, so you'd have to buy the land or you'd be trespassing... :pac:

eth0

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Would you not get a 110% mortgage and take a holiday or update the car with the extra cash. The interest is dirt cheap, sure you'd be mad not to.

Jetski, 30k kitchen you won't use because you get take-away, landscaping as done by a "landscaper" i.e lad who barely knows how to hold a spade, investment property abroad. Full iProduct range for when the weans go back to school

ScumLord

Rigol wrote: »

Most of us haven't been 'smart' or stupid in our decisions about property anyway.
That was 90% dictated to us by life. You're not going to be buying if you're a youngster from the country who moved to Dublin with for a college course and stayed there for a related job....in which case buying might not be a good idea.

That guy got screwed because they gave him the money anyway, now he's a slave to the bank for the rest of his life.

Or you probably won't be renting if you have 5 kids and have a long history with a single company which is local to where you and your other half grew up and where your kids are attending school...in which case buying might be a good idea.

Those people lost their jobs and are also slaves to the overpriced house the bank convinced them to buy.

You should see the houses that got built out here in my small town, one single guy got a 7 bedroom house built for himself. Another guy gets to cry into his swimming pool. Another guy got all the work done by friends for free but the Italian tiles and other millionaire furnishings mean he's still in debt to the bank.

AlmightyCushion

eth0 wrote: »

Jetski, 30k kitchen you won't use because you get take-away, landscaping as done by a "landscaper" i.e lad who barely knows how to hold a spade, investment property abroad. Full iProduct range for when the weans go back to school

Ah the kitchen was well worth it though. I got one of those rangemasters for it. It cost €3,000 but it was totally worth. I cooked food on it earlier and it was unbelievable, probably the best cheese on toast I've ever had.

eth0

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Ah the kitchen was well worth it though. I got one of those rangemasters for it. It cost €3,000 but it was totally worth. I cooked food on it earlier and it was unbelievable, probably the best cheese on toast I've ever had.

Have you a granite counter top as well? Mighty yokes for setting the take away down on when you walk in the door I hear

AlmightyCushion

eth0 wrote: »

Have you a granite counter top as well? Mighty yokes for setting the take away down on when you walk in the door I hear

Course I do, the whole kitchen is granite, the counter top, floor, walls, even the plates are granite. Do you think I'm gonna live like a hobo eating my chinese off a ceramic plate.

books4sale

dirtyden wrote: »

Where is Indo?

Bali, Indonesia, South East Asia.

...or Thailand, either is great and cheap to chill out for a few months.

books4sale

MadsL wrote: »

No need to stretch too far.

If you had borrowed $300k into Gold in 1999 with interest only repayments at 1250 (30 year term) you could have sold at $1.1m now and cleared $920k profit.

From that profit deduct $172k in rent payments made and put that back in the bank. Go shopping for your $748k house. Pay cash.

On the other hand your $300k house costs you $635,905.20 over 30 years and that assumes you fix your mortgage for 30 years.

Now - risky strategy, but property is far from the only game in town, if you can put your money to use where it will achieve a higher rate of return, generally you should.

The stock market has returned almost all of its losses since the Lehrmann's crash, the same is far from true for property.

So true, what's with the Irish obsession with property? So many other and more lucrative ways to make money.

Red21

earlyevening wrote: »

I imagine their income is higher than it was in the mid nineties and that interest rates are lower than they were then.

Incomes are falling, inflation is low and I would expect interest rates to rise from current historical lows. 3 good reasons why it wont be "easy" to repay mortgages for many in 10 yrs.

In a normal environment, one could expect their income to rise steadily roughly in line with inflation and the principal to be repaid steadily by those on repayment mortgages and with inflation devaluing further the value of the sum borrowed.

No. The reason their repaymant are so low is because their morgages were so low to begin with.
Every single address in this country weather it be flat/app/house when looked at over a 25 or 30 year period would cost far more to rent out than to buy, yet people are specualting that now is a good time to rent long term. I wouldn't be surprised if your average house cost 1 million in 10 years, with rents at 3000 per month.
Every decade people claim to shocked at the price of houses and 20 fags only to find them at unimaginable levels 10 years later.

msg11

books4sale wrote: »

So true, what's with the Irish obsession with property? So many other and more lucrative ways to make money.

Drugs?

Red21

MadsL wrote: »

No need to stretch too far.

If you had borrowed $300k into Gold in 1999 with interest only repayments at 1250 (30 year term) you could have sold at $1.1m now and cleared $920k profit.

From that profit deduct $172k in rent payments made and put that back in the bank. Go shopping for your $748k house. Pay cash.

On the other hand your $300k house costs you $635,905.20 over 30 years and that assumes you fix your mortgage for 30 years.

Now - risky strategy, but property is far from the only game in town, if you can put your money to use where it will achieve a higher rate of return, generally you should.

The stock market has returned almost all of its losses since the Lehrmann's crash, the same is far from true for property.

All this shows is if you have money you can make money, if he spent his morgage on gold where would he live? he wouldn't be able afford rent as he'd be paying back on your gold investments

MadsL

Confession time - I forgot to pay back the bank in those Gold investments. Must have been hanging around property threads too much.

Profit is reduced to 620k

Ok so, house owned outeoght after 12 years.

MadsL

Red21 wrote: »

All this shows is if you have money you can make money, if he spent his morgage on gold where would he live? he wouldn't be able afford rent as he'd be paying back on your gold investments

In the house he rents...

fasttalkerchat

Its a service rather than a product. If renting is dead money, a warranty on a product is valueless unless you have to use it.

areyawell

Yes it is, but buy a house if ya can afford it

Red21

MadsL wrote: »

In the house he rents...

How could he afford to rent and pay back on the 300k,

B.A._Baracus

Is it wasted money?

Lets create a scenario here. Three 23 year olds move out of the family home (late bloomers? cause of recession? it dont matter. they move out) Lets call them Jack, John and Adam.

Adam gets a mortgage straight away. Buys a 200k property, has to pay back 410k over 35 years. But he decides to rent out his mortgaged property and rent somewhere cheap for himself (a dive for 150 euro a week) - Mental! But lets come back to him much much later .... Whilst John & Jack rent.

Lets skip forward 5 years. Rent has been €900 euro a month. That works out at €54,000 euro each both John and Jack paid to rent for the last 5 years. Both are now 28. Jack likes renting. John gets a pain in his hole and decides to buy a house. Getting himself in debt. But buys a house for 250k. He has a bit of savings but is still paying back a hefty mortgage.

Fast forward another 5 years both lads are 33. John has already knocked off 54k off his hefty mortgage. Jack is still happy renting & moving around from place to place but still paying that average of 900 euro (lets take out inflation of course) ... he just sinked another 54k into renting. Adam is married now. No kids but still renting a place. But also still renting his place. But again lets forget about Adam.

Fast forward another 10 years. Both lads are 43. Recessions come in cycles dont they? both loose their job. John has knocked off 162K off his mortgage ... while Jack is still renting. At this point Jack blew 216K on rent. Its gone. For what to show to his name? he fails to pay the rent ... he's evicted.

But what about Adam? I mean he had that 35 year mortgage! But renting his place, right!? .... well over the last 20 years he bagged himself €144,000 euro profit for doing nothing. Of course he would of had to spent a portion of that. Thats life. But none the less, was always out of the red.




So the question to boards.ie is ... is it not "dead money" ?
Everyone needs a roof over their head. Hotels are profitable. Who is the fool in this example? the guy paying the rent? the guy paying the mortgage and living there? or the guy making money?

After my minor run in with debt (11k, alot of it poker) when I was 20, I don't think I'll even take a car loan out again.. Or have a credit card. 2 years paying it off with a relatively good job made me learn the value of money and I never want a standing order coming out of my account for any significant loan again.

Now, I'm just building a 20k cash pile that will be sitting in Singapore and used for buying cars/motorbikes outright and will continue to rent forever I'd say. I've three brothers in their 30s who never got a mortgage and they've been jumping around the world for years and years.. I'm doing the same and the idea of owning a rented property in Ireland isn't appealing. Apart from the stress and worries of a house lying empty for a couple of months, I'd much rather use that 20k (if and when I get it) for buying stuff outright than use it as a deposit and then be forced to take out car loans etc.

In the long run, it mightn't be as financially wise but life isn't a race to see how much assets you can accumulate by 65. Ease of mind day in day out is way more important.

MadsL

Red21 wrote: »

How could he afford to rent and pay back on the 300k,

1250 repayments on the 300k + 700 month rent.

or 1950 monthly repaymemts on the mortage.

He lives a slightly lower standard of living to cash his investment sooner.

MadsL

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

So the question to boards.ie is ... is it not "dead money" ?
Everyone needs a roof over their head. Hotels are profitable. Who is the fool in this example? the guy paying the rent? the guy paying the mortgage and living there? or the guy making money?

Jack fails to invest anywhere..therefore he is the fool. Nothing to do with his choice to rent.

eliot756

cena wrote: »

Would you say its dead money renting

wtf is this? Renting the money to the dead?

steve9859

Renting is dead money (ie. after 30 years you have nothing to show for it) unless you are putting money in the bank and building up investment funds as well. A mortgage effectively forces you to invest in an asset (the only question being what the return on your investment is....right now, very poor....in 20 / 30 years time, who knows).

Buying a house might cost more in mortgage interest now than rent, but it is a fact that when the mortgage is paid off, then you have an asset that can stay in your family....maybe live in for free in old age, give to the kids, let your student age grandkids live in it while they go to college, provide an income stream etc.

If you have had the discipline to save money at the same time as renting, and thus build up assets, then I have no doubt that it will have been better to rent in recent years. But I suspect that some renters don't build up savings and investments.

In 20 years time, I will have an unencumbered asset, worth something (whether less than what I paid for it is an aside....the fact is that I have an asset, and the return is just a matter of market timing). If I had rented for 20 years, and had the discipline to save money, my assets might be bigger (and sometimes I wish that I had done just that). But then again, I might not have saved anything, and blown it all on booze, women and trips to Vegas!

I feel pretty comfortable that I have a house in Dublin (which, incidentally, I can't live in any more as I've had to emigrate to get good work....so, yes, someone is paying my mortgage, but I, in turn, am paying someone elses). I know my house will be there in 20 years if I need cash or somewhere to live.

I am renting in London and therefore see both sides of the argument. I must admit though, I really struggle to get used to renting. The fact that I can be thrown own of this house in London which not much notice....I have just been given 6 months notice that I have to move next summer....just as I was getting comfortable. It is a bit of a pain, but I can deal with it. But how people bring up families in our dysfuctional rental markets, I will never know. I would want to know that my kids can stay put in the same place for their school life without upheaval. That is probably the most persuasive argument for buying....and I am sure than many have bought in recent years for that very reason.

The other problem is that we don't know what the government will do to your house in 30 years. Maybe they will take it off you in some asset grab to pay for healthcare or something. Or increase inhertiance tax to penal levels. Or some other such scam to punish people that have worked hard. That is undoubtedly a risk with property ownership, but IMO opinion is outweighed by having an asset in your old age.

Monty Burnz

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Is it wasted money?

Lets create a scenario here. Three 23 year olds move out of the family home (late bloomers? cause of recession? it dont matter. they move out) Lets call them Jack, John and Adam.

Adam gets a mortgage straight away. Buys a 200k property, has to pay back 410k over 35 years. But he decides to rent out his mortgaged property and rent somewhere cheap for himself (a dive for 150 euro a week) - Mental! But lets come back to him much much later .... Whilst John & Jack rent.

Lets skip forward 5 years. Rent has been €900 euro a month. That works out at €54,000 euro each both John and Jack paid to rent for the last 5 years. Both are now 28. Jack likes renting. John gets a pain in his hole and decides to buy a house. Getting himself in debt. But buys a house for 250k. He has a bit of savings but is still paying back a hefty mortgage.

Fast forward another 5 years both lads are 33. John has already knocked off 54k off his hefty mortgage. Jack is still happy renting & moving around from place to place but still paying that average of 900 euro (lets take out inflation of course) ... he just sinked another 54k into renting. Adam is married now. No kids but still renting a place. But also still renting his place. But again lets forget about Adam.

Fast forward another 10 years. Both lads are 43. Recessions come in cycles dont they? both loose their job. John has knocked off 162K off his mortgage ... while Jack is still renting. At this point Jack blew 216K on rent. Its gone. For what to show to his name? he fails to pay the rent ... he's evicted.

But what about Adam? I mean he had that 35 year mortgage! But renting his place, right!? .... well over the last 20 years he bagged himself €144,000 euro profit for doing nothing. Of course he would of had to spent a portion of that. Thats life. But none the less, was always out of the red.




So the question to boards.ie is ... is it not "dead money" ?
Everyone needs a roof over their head. Hotels are profitable. Who is the fool in this example? the guy paying the rent? the guy paying the mortgage and living there? or the guy making money?

Let's take another example -

2 guys. They even have the same income. One buys a 2 bed apartment for 350k, mortgage repayment @ 4% = about 2k per month. The other guy rents a 2 bed apartment with a friend, repayment €.5. per month. After 5 years, there has been a massive economic collapse, and the apartment is now worth 150k (being generous). First guy has no savings and owes €320k on a property worth €150k. The other guy has been saving 1.5k per month for 60 months and has 90k in the bank and no debt.

Guy 2 is €260,000 euros better off than Guy 1 after 5 years.

We could also explore what happens when Guys 1 and 2 (now aged 28 after 5 years) lose their jobs, need to move for work, decide to start families etc. etc. - in every case, Guy 1 is pretty f*cked.

And before anyone accuses me of making all this stuff up - this is what has actually happened up and down the country to thousands of people including people I know in the last 5 years.

Monty Burnz

steve9859 wrote: »

Renting is dead money (ie. after 30 years you have nothing to show for it) unless you are putting money in the bank and building up investment funds as well. A mortgage effectively forces you to invest in an asset (the only question being what the return on your investment is....right now, very poor....in 20 / 30 years time, who knows).

This is a reasonable point - you have to assume that a rational renter puts the money he is saving into savings and investments rather than on the 3.30 at Haydock. Not everybody is rational of course.

earlyevening

Red21 wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if your average house cost 1 million in 10 years, with rents at 3000 per month.

lol.
I disagree. The end.

Monty Burnz

Red21 wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if your average house cost 1 million in 10 years, with rents at 3000 per month.

How did this post get stuck in the internet since 2006?

jester77

jsd1004 wrote: »

I never heard of a tenant ever..ever wanting to put in a kitchen..keeping the cooker clean is usually a challenge..

I did after moving into my current apartment. Spoke with the landlord and it was no problem. Threw out the old kitchen, he paid for all the new wiring and plumbing and I paid for the kitchen.

Great system here, I will get the price of the kitchen (minus depreciation based on a set formula) back from either the landlord or the next tenant whenever I move out.

Ireland has a lot to learn about property. If you rent you should be able to make the property your home and not the BS that goes on in Ireland where most of the time you get cheap tacky furniture included in the apartment and you can't even put a nail in the wall to hang a picture in a lot of places. Much better getting an empty apartment and putting your own furniture in it that you can take with you when you move.

PhlegmyMoses

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Let's take another example -

2 guys. They even have the same income. One buys a 2 bed apartment for 350k, mortgage repayment @ 4% = about 2k per month. The other guy rents a 2 bed apartment with a friend, repayment €.5. per month. After 5 years, there has been a massive economic collapse, and the apartment is now worth 150k (being generous). First guy has no savings and owes €320k on a property worth €150k. The other guy has been saving 1.5k per month for 60 months and has 90k in the bank and no debt.

Guy 2 is €260,000 euros better off than Guy 1 after 5 years.

We could also explore what happens when Guys 1 and 2 (now aged 28 after 5 years) lose their jobs, need to move for work, decide to start families etc. etc. - in every case, Guy 1 is pretty f*cked.

And before anyone accuses me of making all this stuff up - this is what has actually happened up and down the country to thousands of people including people I know in the last 5 years.

None of this relevant if the first guy is happy to stay in his house. The fluctuation of the value of the property becomes meaningless if it wasn't bought as an investment and you can afford pay to back the mortgage. Some people just want to eradicate the need to pay rent when they get older, which isn't a stupid decision at all.

Monty Burnz

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

None of this relevant if the first guy is happy to stay in his house.

I totally agree*. And I hope he is happy to stay there - the problem comes when he decides he want the taxpayer to pay off his negative equity for him. Sorry, but we need that money for schools and hospitals.


*Well, it is somewhat relevant in that the second guy in the scenario can buy a similar place with a 60k mortgage instead of a 320k mortgage (as the first guy has) after 5 years.

Shenshen

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Let's take another example -

2 guys. They even have the same income. One buys a 2 bed apartment for 350k, mortgage repayment @ 4% = about 2k per month. The other guy rents a 2 bed apartment with a friend, repayment €.5. per month. After 5 years, there has been a massive economic collapse, and the apartment is now worth 150k (being generous). First guy has no savings and owes €320k on a property worth €150k. The other guy has been saving 1.5k per month for 60 months and has 90k in the bank and no debt.

Guy 2 is €260,000 euros better off than Guy 1 after 5 years.

We could also explore what happens when Guys 1 and 2 (now aged 28 after 5 years) lose their jobs, need to move for work, decide to start families etc. etc. - in every case, Guy 1 is pretty f*cked.

And before anyone accuses me of making all this stuff up - this is what has actually happened up and down the country to thousands of people including people I know in the last 5 years.

Guy 2 found an apartment to share for €5 a month?
And consequently managed to save 1.5k a month??? :eek:

I have been renting until 4 years ago, and I have to say, guy 1 must drive a hard bargain with landlords indeed. What I was paying in rent back then is pretty much exactly the same I'm paying in mortgage now.