renting dead money

Halloran springs

Halloran springs wrote: »

I don't believe for a second that property tax will remain a "fairly small fee", (based on how other countries operate) eventually it will be between 1% and 2% of the property price every year. So it will become very significant in the future.

And every landlord will pass it on, they know if they all pass it on then renters will have no choice but to pay the increased rent. Also it will never get that high.

books4sale wrote: »

Bali, Indonesia, South East Asia.

...or Thailand, either is great and cheap to chill out for a few months.

I'd rather build a house in Ireland any day than wasting my money traipsing around indochina.

Some people need to understand that travelling for long periods of time is something a lot of people don't want to do, hell I don't even like to be living outside the area I grew up in never mind another country.

Monty Burnz

Shenshen wrote: »

Guy 2 found an apartment to share for €5 a month?
And consequently managed to save 1.5k a month??? :eek:

€500 per month (€.5k)

I'm assuming they both have 2k per month after non-accommodation living expenses - so one guy spends it all on his mortgage, the other guy puts it in the bank after taking out his €500 rent.

Steven81

Rented from July 2007 to May 2011 with rent varying from 750 to 675 approx 37k in total , The house if you wanted to buy new was 280k in 07 and 180k in 2011.

Bought in a different area with with a saving of 370k from what he was looking at during the boom. Dead money can save you in the long term.

Monty Burnz

Lacey Creamy Potato wrote: »

And every landlord will pass it on, they know if they all pass it on then renters will have no choice but to pay the increased rent. Also it will never get that high.

I've already addressed how difficult it will be to pass on - some people will not be able to afford rent at higher levels, some people will chose not to rent at the higher levels. The net result is reduced demand and empty properties. Empty property is no use to a landlord, so they will have to reduce rents again to fill them. Basic supply and demand.

Shenshen

Monty Burnz wrote: »

€500 per month (€.5k)

I'm assuming they both have 2k per month after non-accommodation living expenses - so one guy spends it all on his mortgage, the other guy puts it in the bank after taking out his €500 rent.

Well, even then he must have been on a really decent income to save 1.5k a month...
Personally, I manage to save a couple of hundered after the bills, food, insurances, petrol, etc.

Monty Burnz

Shenshen wrote: »

Well, even then he must have been on a really decent income to save 1.5k a month...

Um...he's on the same income as the guy with the 2k mortage...

It's funny how people find this stuff somehow counterintuitive.

Shenshen

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I've already addressed how difficult it will be to pass on - some people will not be able to afford rent at higher levels, some people will chose not to rent at the higher levels. The net result is reduced demand and empty properties. Empty property is no use to a landlord, so they will have to reduce rents again to fill them. Basic supply and demand.

That would be the case if the renters could actually chose to rent or not to rent.
For most people, the options are renting or buying. And most people I knwo who rent do so because they cannot afford to buy yet, or do not want to buy yet, so the only remaining option will be to rent.

So the demand situation will not change in the slightest. People need a roof over their heads, and landlords will raise the rents.

Monty Burnz

Shenshen wrote: »

That would be the case if the renters could actually chose to rent or not to rent.
For most people, the options are renting or buying. And most people I knwo who rent do so because they cannot afford to buy yet, or do not want to buy yet, so the only remaining option will be to rent.

So the demand situation will not change in the slightest. People need a roof over their heads, and landlords will raise the rents.

I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. Prices are set at the margins. You only need a couple of percent of all renters to move back home, share with friends, or emigrate, and you suddenly have thousands of empty properties scrabbling for tenants.

Shenshen

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Um...he's on the same income as the guy with the 2k mortage...

It's funny how people find this stuff somehow counterintuitive.

Ah, ok. Got it now.

I still would have to say that it bears little resemblance to my own experiences with renting and buying.
We used to rent a house up until 4 years ago, and paid €1k rent a month.
We then bought a house (similar size, similar location) 4 years ago and are now paying around €1.1k to repay the mortgage (it went up from €900 recently).

So I cannot help thinking that the two apartments in your example (the bought and the rented/shared one) must have been rather different in size, standard and/or location.

Shenshen

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. Prices are set at the margins. You only need a couple of percent of all renters to move back home, share with friends, or emigrate, and you suddenly have thousands of empty properties scrabbling for tenants.

I think the most likely of all of these is the emigration, and up until now that doesn't seem to have had much of an effect on rent prices.

Not many people can move back in with their parents, either because the parents downsized once the kids had moved out or because the parents live in a different part of the country), and from my experience most people who rent (with the exception of families who rent houses) already do share.

In my view, rent increases are similar to increases in the price of pertol : People will shout and scream, but not all that many will actually drive less or give up their car.

Monty Burnz

Shenshen wrote: »

So I cannot help thinking that the two apartments in your example (the bought and the rented/shared one) must have been rather different in size, standard and/or location.

Not at all. I could actually give real-life experiences and name names, but I'll just dig out a few current examples:

2 bed apartments to let:
Cabinteely €950
Glenageary €985
Stepaside €1000

This last one, in Stepaside - I know that people were paying about 400k for those apartments in 2006. That's over 2k per month in rent on a 30 year mortgage at 5% interest.

Edit: freudian slip - meant 2k per month in mortgage payments

Shenshen

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Not at all. I could actually give real-life experiences and name names, but I'll just dig out a few current examples:

2 bed apartments to let:
Cabinteely €950
Glenageary €985
Stepaside €1000

This last one, in Stepaside - I know that people were paying about 400k for those apartments in 2006. That's over 2k per month in rent on a 30 year mortgage at 5% interest.

Edit: freudian slip - meant 2k per month in mortgage payments

Which begs the question : how can they afford to rent them out at half the mortgage repayment?

Emeraldy Pebbles

usernamegoes wrote: »

I wish we had more of a culture of empty renting here; I hate the stuff Landlords ram into places here.

Also, I'd like to be able to do stuff like add a kitchen to the style I like. Hard to do in a renter, perhaps if we had more of a professional landlord system with longer term renting.

krudler wrote: »

hell with that, its expensive enough moving without having to provide your own furniture as well, i'd only buy my own furniture for my own house.

+1, furniture and white goods are expensive!

Monty Burnz

Shenshen wrote: »

Which begs the question : how can they afford to rent them out at half the mortgage repayment?

That's a real can of worms. Here are some ways:

1. Bought as investments, but rent doesn't cover mortgage: landlord subsidises tenant
2. Bought when single, can't sell when married (happened a lot to colleagues of mine): landlord subsidises tenant
3. Landlord is in default on mortgage, still collects rent: landlord is stealing from banks/state (see Eugene Dooley, the Louth eviction protest guy)
4. Property was bought without mortgage or small mortgage: landlord is making an income, but has lost a lot of capital
5. Property has already been repossessed/sold: new owner is making an income or at least covering costs

I'm sure there are other possibilities too.

Monty Burnz

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. Prices are set at the margins. You only need a couple of percent of all renters to move back home, share with friends, or emigrate, and you suddenly have thousands of empty properties scrabbling for tenants.

Its not that easy, I'd love to live at home, we have a big house Its the area I want to live in and I could save the money I'm paying in rent every month and add it to my savings towards buying. But I cant live in Co. Galway and work in Cork. The same is the case for the majority of people who rent. Also people are not going to leave jobs and emigrate if their rent gets a bit more expensive, people were happy to pay higher rents a few years ago, hell people are still happy to pay 100's more in rent than they would have to pay for the equivalent mortgage even if they plan on staying in an area long term.

Shenshen

Lacey Creamy Potato wrote: »

Its not that easy, I'd love to live at home, we have a big house Its the area I want to live in and I could save the money I'm paying in rent every month and add it to my savings towards buying. But I cant live in Co. Galway and work in Cork. The same is the case for the majority of people who rent. Also people are not going to leave jobs and emigrate if their rent gets a bit more expensive, people were happy to pay higher rents a few years ago, hell people are still happy to pay 100's more in rent than they would have to pay for the equivalent mortgage even if they plan on staying in an area long term.

I suspect it's going to happen as follows :

Some landlords will be cheeky and raise their rents.
People will still rent those properties (for whatever reason, just take a look at the "Funny flats to rent" thread to see what dives actually get rented out for serious money)
Other landlords will take note and raise their rents as well
People will pay those prices, because there is not a lot available any more that's cheaper.

Monty Burnz

Lacey Creamy Potato wrote: »

Its not that easy, I'd love to live at home, we have a big house Its the area I want to live in and I could save the money I'm paying in rent every month and add it to my savings towards buying. But I cant live in Co. Galway and work in Cork. The same is the case for the majority of people who rent.

But this is my point: you don't need a majority to change their behaviour, you just need a tiny minority to do so. If you jack up rents by - say - 10% to cover this new tax, you will easily shift 2% or 3% of renters around the country into moving home or sharing with friends (or just leaving the country). And that leaves thousands of empty properties forcing prices down looking for new tenants.

Let me put it like this: if the market will bear a 10% increase in rents - as you say it will - why don't landlords put up prices by 10% today?

Monty Burnz

Monty Burnz wrote: »

But this is my point: you don't need a majority to change their behaviour, you just need a tiny minority to do so. If you jack up rents by - say - 10% to cover this new tax, you will easily shift 2% or 3% of renters around the country into moving home or sharing with friends (or just leaving the country). And that leaves thousands of empty properties forcing prices down looking for new tenants.

Let me put it like this: if the market will bear a 10% increase in rents - as you say it will - why don't landlords put up prices by 10% today?

I didn't say it would necessarily raise the rent to fully cover the cost of the property tax but I definitely see rents rising somewhat to offset some of the costs. I also don't see the tax getting as high as people appear to think it will.

Also there are already landlords out there happy to leave a place empty rather than reduce the rent so things might not go the way you think they will.

Monty Burnz

Lacey Creamy Potato wrote: »

I didn't say it would necessarily raise the rent to fully cover the cost of the property tax but I definitely see rents rising somewhat to offset some of the costs. I also don't see the tax getting as high as people appear to think it will.

Also there are already landlords out there happy to leave a place empty rather than reduce the rent so things might not go the way you think they will.

We'll have to wait and see I guess. The only problem from a predictive viewpoint is that rents could rise for reasons other than the new taxes, or could fall or stay flat despite being pushed up by the new taxes (if you get me). But it will be interesting to see where rents lie in a year's time.

Emeraldy Pebbles

ted1 wrote: »

I could do the same, if I rented out my house it would cover my mortgage, house expenses and accommodation in Info.
win, Win, Win, Win

That's if you are able to get it rented. And rent might not cover your payments.

Emeraldy Pebbles

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

I just bought a reasonably priced, modest house for cash.

So yeah.

Good for you. It's very rare that people are in a position to do that though.

cena

i WOULD RATHER be able to buy my own house. Where I would feel right in hanging pictures etc up. I could have damn good garden to what I have now a swamp.

I would love half a acre of land to plant trees and loads of room for the dog to run around.

areyawell

I have a good friend from Cork whos 22 who was renting a room a room in a three bedroomed apartment for around three years, paying four hundred a month. Thats 15k. He decided to buy a house because he felt it was dead money and was very similar to this one in cork city centre.

http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=671128

His house cost 55k and was very nice inside similar to the above one. He got a mortgage for 500 a month. He rents out a room in the house for 250 a month so he only pays 250 a month himself for the mortgage. House is due to be paid off when hes 32. He gets his parents to collect the rent and act like they own the house so easier to find a tenant instead of living with landlord.

This house is not going to be the house he lives in for the rest of his life or maybe it will depending on circumtances. When the mortgage is paid off he is going to rent this house out which will pay off most of the mortgage on the new house he plans on getting around that age and this is the age most people buy house at.

Clever or stupid? Ye decide?

books4sale

Lacey Creamy Potato wrote: »

I'd rather build a house in Ireland any day than wasting my money traipsing around indochina.

Some people need to understand that travelling for long periods of time is something a lot of people don't want to do, hell I don't even like to be living outside the area I grew up in never mind another country.

Bit naive aren't ya?

Who said anything about travelling, those days are long gone. Asia is going through an economic boom right now.

I have friends in my hometime exactly like this, each to their own but they never really did anything with their lives, down to the pub every weekend drinking, smoking, sh*ting on about the weather and the GAA. Paying off huge mortgages and loans from the boom now. Can't say I would want to swap.

All added up, turns out out i'm the one flying it now, cash in the bank, contacts and experience all over the world, successful business, not bad for a lad who used to get slagged off for not knowing where or what I was doing.

Shoes on the other foot.

books4sale

books4sale wrote: »

Bit naive aren't ya?

Who said anything about travelling, those days are long gone. Asia is going through an economic boom right now.

I have friends in my hometime exactly like this, each to their own but they never really did anything with their lives, down to the pub every weekend drinking, smoking, sh*ting on about the weather and the GAA. Paying off huge mortgages and loans from the boom now. Can't say I would want to swap.

All added up, turns out out i'm the one flying it now, cash in the bank, contacts and experience all over the world, successful business, not bad for a lad who used to get slagged off for not knowing where or what I was doing.

Shoes on the other foot.

No I'm not naive, I just have no interest in moving away from Ireland, I moved to London for a year and couldn't wait to get back never mind moving further away. I like to be near home, family and friends. There are plenty of opportunities in Ireland for those who want them. Also whats wrong with following GAA etc too and having the few pints I don't get this "never did anything with their lives". I am happy to visit places on holidays, though Europe and especially the US are the places I like to go, places like asia and Australia don't really interest me even for holidays.

Staying in Ireland also gives me things like having land at home where I can build my own house without the expense of having to buy a site if I want to etc etc.

My ideal scenario would be moving back to/near home getting a job and staying there for good.

areyawell

Lacey Creamy Potato wrote: »

No I'm not naive, I just have no interest in moving away from Ireland, I moved to London for a year and couldn't wait to get back never mind moving further away. I like to be near home, family and friends. There are plenty of opportunities in Ireland for those who want them. Also whats wrong with following GAA etc too and having the few pints I don't get this "never did anything with their lives". I am happy to visit places on holidays, though Europe and especially the US are the places I like to go, places like asia and Australia don't really interest me even for holidays.

Staying in Ireland also gives me things like having land at home where I can build my own house without the expense of having to buy a site if I want to etc etc.

My ideal scenario would be moving back to/near home getting a job and staying there for good.

Im the same as you, was working in cork for a year away from home in Carlow. Also had to work most weekends. Loved getting home the weekends I was off to people who you grew up with and family. Made a lot of friends in Cork but nothing is like getting home to your homeplace. Id be happy to work anywhere as long as my weekends are free to get home.

Emeraldy Pebbles

Shenshen wrote: »

I suspect it's going to happen as follows :

Some landlords will be cheeky and raise their rents.
People will still rent those properties (for whatever reason, just take a look at the "Funny flats to rent" thread to see what dives actually get rented out for serious money)
Other landlords will take note and raise their rents as well
People will pay those prices, because there is not a lot available any more that's cheaper.

IMO, a lot of the properties in that thread aren't let and the ads are just taken down, because many seem to disappear after being posted on that thread.

areyawell

areyawell wrote: »

Im the same as you, was working in cork for a year away from home in Carlow. Also had to work most weekends. Loved getting home the weekends I was off to people who you grew up with and family. Made a lot of friends in Cork but nothing is like getting home to your homeplace. Id be happy to work anywhere as long as my weekends are free to get home.

Yeah same as, ideally Id live and work in co.Galway/Galway city or somewhere nearby but working in Ireland is acceptable so I can head home when I want at weekends etc. I don't head home every weekend (go home maybe 70% of weekends and also spend time off at home) but I love always having the option and all you have to do is hop in the car.

Milk & Honey

Monty Burnz wrote: »

But what I do is irrelevant - the point is that if rents increase, some people will opt not to rent at all, reducing demand. That's economics 101.

If rents drop some landlords will opt not to rent at all, reducing supply. That's economics 101.

Monty Burnz

Milk & Honey wrote: »

If rents drop some landlords will opt not to rent at all, reducing supply. That's economics 101.

Agreed. But I wonder how many landlords are in a position to let property lie empty?

Halloran springs

areyawell wrote: »

I have a good friend from Cork whos 22 who was renting a room a room in a three bedroomed apartment for around three years, paying four hundred a month. Thats 15k. He decided to buy a house because he felt it was dead money and was very similar to this one in cork city centre.

http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=671128

His house cost 55k and was very nice inside similar to the above one. He got a mortgage for 500 a month. He rents out a room in the house for 250 a month so he only pays 250 a month himself for the mortgage. House is due to be paid off when hes 32. He gets his parents to collect the rent and act like they own the house so easier to find a tenant instead of living with landlord.

This house is not going to be the house he lives in for the rest of his life or maybe it will depending on circumtances. When the mortgage is paid off he is going to rent this house out which will pay off most of the mortgage on the new house he plans on getting around that age and this is the age most people buy house at.

Clever or stupid? Ye decide?

My god, he's a financial genius!! Why hasn't anyone else thought of this idea before?

Milk & Honey

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Agreed. But I wonder how many landlords are in a position to let property lie empty?

Many will sell off. Others will not enter the market. A certain number of landlords sell off every year. Others enter the market. If rents fall the numbers of landlords active in the market fall.

Ciaracxx

No!! Friends and family told me not to do it!! But only for renting I have proved to the bank I can pay a mortgage and that's the strong point of my application

desertcircus

I don't quite understand the mad focus on the finances of renting v buying. My partner and I can comfortably afford to rent a cottage in Ranelagh, but wouldn't get a mortgage for one without a massive raise for one of us. We could probably buy a place somewhere on the outskirts of Dublin, and it'd probably be a lot bigger than what we have, but we'd lose a huge amount in terms of quality of life. So we rent for now.

Monty Burnz

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Many will sell off. Others will not enter the market. A certain number of landlords sell off every year. Others enter the market. If rents fall the numbers of landlords active in the market fall.

People who sell will be selling to people who are currently renting or to other landlords who will rent out the property - aggregate affect on demand will be zero in that case.

Milk & Honey

Monty Burnz wrote: »

People who sell will be selling to people who are currently renting or to other landlords who will rent out the property - aggregate affect on demand will be zero in that case.

They may sell to people who are currently renting (more likely at the moment). In many cases people who move from renting to buying increase the size of their living space. A couple may rent a one bed apartment and then buy a three bed house. In that case a 1 bed has been swapped for a 3 bed. Supply is lowered.

Monty Burnz

Milk & Honey wrote: »

They may sell to people who are currently renting (more likely at the moment). In many cases people who move from renting to buying increase the size of their living space. A couple may rent a one bed apartment and then buy a three bed house. In that case a 1 bed has been swapped for a 3 bed. Supply is lowered.

Yes this is a natural progression - household formation. I don't think though that people will start forming households simply because more houses are on the market. The converse of this is older people downsizing to smaller houses, apartments, or moving back down to the country. Again, they are unlikely to do it simply because there are more properties on the market.

StillWaters

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Shenshen wrote: »

So I cannot help thinking that the two apartments in your example (the bought and the rented/shared one) must have been rather different in size, standard and/or location.

Not at all. I could actually give real-life experiences and name names, but I'll just dig out a few current examples:

2 bed apartments to let:
Cabinteely €950
Glenageary €985
Stepaside €1000

This last one, in Stepaside - I know that people were paying about 400k for those apartments in 2006. That's over 2k per month in rent on a 30 year mortgage at 5% interest.

Edit: freudian slip - meant 2k per month in mortgage payments

To argue the rent v buy, and you need to compare current house prices, and not historic. So what do your sums look like at a purchase price of 180k?

Monty Burnz

StillWaters wrote: »

To argue the rent v buy, and you need to compare current house prices, and not historic. So what do your sums look like at a purchase price of 180k?

I'm not arguing rent versus buy. I'm arguing with "it's always a good time to buy" and its good friend "rent is dead money".

Milk & Honey

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Yes this is a natural progression - household formation. I don't think though that people will start forming households simply because more houses are on the market. The converse of this is older people downsizing to smaller houses, apartments, or moving back down to the country. Again, they are unlikely to do it simply because there are more properties on the market.

Household formation has an effect on the market, but older peope downsizing will be selling to people upsizing. There is no increase in rental bed spaces. Very few of them sell to landlords and these are more than offset by landlords getting out.

Monty Burnz

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Household formation has an effect on the market, but older peope downsizing will be selling to people upsizing. There is no increase in rental bed spaces. Very few of them sell to landlords and these are more than offset by landlords getting out.

Without being rude, can you offer any sort of objective support for these claims?

Red21

Your averge house cost 2k in 1960
7/8k in the 70's
14k in the mid 80's
80/90k in the 90's
350k in the mid 00's
Land values followed a similiar trend, if you talk to anyone who has involved in buying property over the last 50 years they'll tell you there has always been all kinds of "naysayers" saying that paying X amount was madness, if there was no recession you'd still have the "naysayers" they just make a lot more noise in those very rare times of negative equity in the long run they've all been proved wrong, only to find house prices at inconceivable levels 10/15 years down road.
The bottom line is that morgages repayments are not tied into inflation whereas renting is. Every morgage that has ever handed out in this country has shown its true worth once you're into the 2nd half of the term. Nobody here knows what house prices will be in 2025 but you can hardly act surprised if they're in excess of a million euro and you're left crying into your €20 pint.

Monty Burnz

Red21 wrote: »

The bottom line is that morgages repayments are not tied into inflation whereas renting is.

Do you think that interest rates have any tie to inflation?

dirtyden

areyawell wrote: »

I have a good friend from Cork whos 22 who was renting a room a room in a three bedroomed apartment for around three years, paying four hundred a month. Thats 15k. He decided to buy a house because he felt it was dead money and was very similar to this one in cork city centre.

http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=671128

His house cost 55k and was very nice inside similar to the above one. He got a mortgage for 500 a month. He rents out a room in the house for 250 a month so he only pays 250 a month himself for the mortgage. House is due to be paid off when hes 32. He gets his parents to collect the rent and act like they own the house so easier to find a tenant instead of living with landlord.

This house is not going to be the house he lives in for the rest of his life or maybe it will depending on circumtances. When the mortgage is paid off he is going to rent this house out which will pay off most of the mortgage on the new house he plans on getting around that age and this is the age most people buy house at.

Clever or stupid? Ye decide?

Where is this house for 55k in cork city centre? A well maintained 3 bedroomed terraced city centre house for 55k (that is if it is like the one you have shown above)? Unless it floods every year or is built on an indian burial ground I find this hard to believe.

The house you have shown is Dunmanway which is a long way from Cork city centre. i take it you cannot find something similar on daft, or just the original ad of the house your friend bought to back this up?

Monty Burnz

dirtyden wrote: »

The house you have shown is Dunmanway which is a long way from Cork city centre. i take it you cannot find something similar on daft, or just the original ad of the house your friend bought to back this up?

Maybe he was just talking about Cork County, rather than Cork City?

Milk & Honey

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Without being rude, can you offer any sort of objective support for these claims?

Without being rude, but you make suggestions and offer no objective support and when contradicted ask for objective support.

dirtyden

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Maybe he was just talking about Cork County, rather than Cork City?

Maybe although his post said he bought a house similar to that one in Dunmanway in Cork city centre. So I am assuming he did mean the city centre. i could be wrong. Now there are some very dilapidated old terraced houses going cheap close enough to the city centre in Cork but most would not be in great shape, generally rented to students.

Monty Burnz

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Without being rude, but you make suggestions and offer no objective support and when contradicted ask for objective support.

Such as? I don't understand how you are in a position to say who downsizers will sell to, and how many landlords will leave the market, and how many of those will sell to other landlords.

Have I made similarly controversial claims?

StillWaters

Monty Burnz wrote: »

StillWaters wrote: »

To argue the rent v buy, and you need to compare current house prices, and not historic. So what do your sums look like at a purchase price of 180k?

I'm not arguing rent versus buy. I'm arguing with "it's always a good time to buy" and its good friend "rent is dead money".

I don't think anyone would argue the case that it is always a good time time to buy, burned as we are by our recent history. I think the issue is in a normal functioning property market is it economically more efficient to buy or rent.

I argue the former, and and renters pay a premium for mobility.

FrogMarch

Rent was dead money when all my mates were buying apartments for €500k that were actually only worth about €200k (if even). I'm still hearing from the same circles that rent is dead money. Some people never learn.

I'm still renting. I have no debt. No negative equity. And soon, I'll be able to pay for a property in cash. Yeah, I'm smug. And proud.