Current Junior Cert to be phased out

rainbowtrout

Boober Fraggle wrote: »

seavill wrote: »

Wheter or not Mrs. murphy down the road is happy with the grade I gave Johnny doesn't really bother me tbh.
Some teachers (construction studies) already correct their own Leaving Cert projects with external monitoring.

Mrs Murphy mightn't bother you so much, but if Johnny enjoys throwing eggs at houses, how would it influence the grade? If you had a son who was 3 years younger than Johnny and begging you to give him a good grade, how would you feel? Or let's say that you know mr Murphy would beat 7 shades out of Johnny for getting a c?

I didn't realise that about construction. If the external assessor looks at them all what's the point?

Ag science works the same way. External monitor there to make sure grades given out are fair. i.e. whole class aren't getting As or a child isn't being marked harshly because of a personal grudge or just because teacher is a harsh marker

seavill

Boober Fraggle wrote: »

Mrs Murphy mightn't bother you so much, but if Johnny enjoys throwing eggs at houses, how would it influence the grade? If you had a son who was 3 years younger than Johnny and begging you to give him a good grade, how would you feel? Or let's say that you know mr Murphy would beat 7 shades out of Johnny for getting a c?

I didn't realise that about construction. If the external assessor looks at them all what's the point?

Being 100% honest, if it became an issue for me outside of school I would involve management or the Gardai I would certainly not give anyone a good grade just becuase they try cause agro. If we did this the whold system as we know it would even be a waste of time never mind the new system.

If the child gets a beating over it again is not your responsibility by giving false grades, its your job to report it to the relevant people but are you really saying you will falsify grades to suit the situations you have outlined above?

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ag science works the same way. External monitor there to make sure grades given out are fair. i.e. whole class aren't getting As or a child isn't being marked harshly because of a personal grudge or just because teacher is a harsh marker

Do you get any feedback or get to see the external assessors grades compared to yours? Or are you marking completely blind each year as I have described?

rainbowtrout

seavill wrote: »

Being 100% honest, if it became an issue for me outside of school I would involve management or the Gardai I would certainly not give anyone a good grade just becuase they try cause agro. If we did this the whold system as we know it would even be a waste of time never mind the new system.

If the child gets a beating over it again is not your responsibility by giving false grades, its your job to report it to the relevant people but are you really saying you will falsify grades to suit the situations you have outlined above?

Would agree, you can't give grades based on what goes on in the child's home. Where would it stop? Mary tries hard when she is in school, which isn't often but her parents don't care about educating her and spend all their time in the pub, etc etc.

If you think there's an issue in the home, bring it to the attention of the principal so action can be taken, don't give the child a better grade that they don't deserve to alleviate the situation.

bdoo

I wonder could we do Chinese history and Culture, (torture), including practical demonstrations on (un)willing volunteers.

Boober Fraggle

I'm not saying I would grade on the basis of these things, but they would be there in my mind as I would grade. At the minute, they aren't, and that is a good thing.

seavill

Boober Fraggle wrote: »

I'm not saying I would grade on the basis of these things, but they would be there in my mind as I would grade. At the minute, they aren't, and that is a good thing.

Why are they not in your mind now but would be if it was the new JC. Surely the same scenarios apply if for example correcting summer or Christmas exams.

I know of a first year here last year who has been stopped from playing all sports inside and outside of school due to bad summer grades.
It still would not effect my grading of his work

Boober Fraggle

I'm talking about the state exams. They aren't in my mind at the minute because I don't know anything about the kid.

We have often been asked in school to be careful of grades and comments for some students by the hscl for child protection reasons.

implausible

I hope that the SEC will provide proper thorough training in how to grade student work. It's not ideal, but then again, neither is 100% of your grade being dependent on one terminal exam.

Speaking as someone who has marked for the SEC, it's amazing how your perception of what is good and bad changes. As another poster said, there are often huge arguments at conferences over the grading of a question and that is amongst teachers who are committed to and interested in marking. I would have doubts over the objectivity and fairness of let's say, Mr Kelly, who just wants to throw a mark onto the page to get it over and done with. From marking FETAC work, I know that the standard can fluctuate wildly, especially with some modules with which there is a good chance that the external examiner is unfamiliar.

I'm not against the idea, but the chances of the implementation not being thorough and the system being open to abuse makes me a bit apprehensive.

evolving_doors

I think grading comes back to our own confidence in our professional competencies (we don;t need the TC to tell us that with BTW). I find that The issues people discuss here with problems grading the JC themselves, usually play themselves out in 1st 2nd and 5th year anyway. The way we deal with the JC issues 'shouldn't' be any different with how we deal with gradings in other years. If parents wanted to discuss my marking criteria I'd be delighted to point out why their son did or didn't achieve their grade as long as systems are in place to manage the meetings.

The fact that the pressure of a 'High stakes exam' is to be dissipated by continuous assessment etc is a good thing. Was the Junior cert ever meant to be a 'high stakes' trial run for the Leaving Cert? No, but for a lot of students that is what has transpired, the ones that don't engage with the JC know this and opt out because of the possibility of failure or low grades. I know of many JC students who are up to their eyeballs in grinds, this is just bananas.

As teachers, do we always need our hands held by the NCCA/Marking Schemes/Past Papers... Finally we get the chance to shape our own courses (albeit in a small way) and we're acting like headless sheep worrying about integrity. After all, the changes that are taking place were through public consultation with teachers/parents etc...

Dare I say it...It's only the Junior Cert folks!!

implausible

Armelodie wrote: »

As teachers, do we always need our hands held by the NCCA/Marking Schemes/Past Papers... Finally we get the chance to shape our own courses (albeit in a small way) and we're acting like headless sheep worrying about integrity.

Handholding? No. A universally applied standard? Yes.

Unless you have marked exam papers and/or have worked in a lot of schools, it is extremely difficult to have an accurate view of the overall national standard. You can become institutionalised by the standard in your own school. Marking Schemes, exemplars and decent thorough inservice are essential to retain the integrity of the system and our schools.

rainbowtrout

Armelodie wrote: »

I think grading comes back to our own confidence in our professional competencies (we don;t need the TC to tell us that with BTW). I find that The issues people discuss here with problems grading the JC themselves, usually play themselves out in 1st 2nd and 5th year anyway. The way we deal with the JC issues 'shouldn't' be any different with how we deal with gradings in other years.


As teachers, do we always need our hands held by the NCCA/Marking Schemes/Past Papers... Finally we get the chance to shape our own courses (albeit in a small way) and we're acting like headless sheep worrying about integrity. After all, the changes that are taking place were through public consultation with teachers/parents etc...

Dare I say it...It's only the Junior Cert folks!!

To be honest some teachers do. Some are easy markers, some have a rough bell curve of grades where the best student in the class will get an A even if they are not A standard. I've met teachers who've said this to me. If my best student is a C student then a C is what they'll get from me.

Some teachers have never corrected with the SEC and have no idea what the national standard is like and correct according to their own personal opinion on what they think is acceptable.

The very fact that almost every student in the country gets the full 10% for writing up the mandatory experiments in science is indicative of this. I don't believe for one moment that practically every student in the country completes every experiment and writes them up satisfactorily yet practically everyone gets full marks.

Also if say the test for presence of starch is part of coursework and my student gives correct result of 'blue black colour change is positive result' and I give full marks and the teacher in the school down the road gives full marks for same question where student writes 'turns purple' and the teachers justification is 'sure its more or less right and I know Johnny so I knew what he was on about' then the standard required to achieve a particular grade in two schools varies wildly. One student will have to be exact and factually correct and try other only has to be vaguely in the ball park area of being correct.

Standards could end up varying wildly between schools simply because teachers have different standards.

As it stands there are 5 exam boards which provide A level exams in the UK not like our one standard SEC exam. Some of those exam boards are considered to be of a better standard than others to the point that some universities would have a greater value for A levels from board X over board Y.

I wouldn't like to see schools here compared like that. i.e. it's much easier to get an A in science in school A than school B because of varying standards.

While students here by and large don't need their junior cert for work purposes or college entry as most students do the LC I wouldn't like to see the school be the determining factor in a students grade rather than the students ability, hence the need for some sort of standardisation and training of some description

evolving_doors

implausible wrote: »

Handholding? No. A universally applied standard? Yes.

Unless you have marked exam papers and/or have worked in a lot of schools, it is extremely difficult to have an accurate view of the overall national standard. You can become institutionalised by the standard in your own school. Marking Schemes, exemplars and decent thorough inservice are essential to retain the integrity of the system and our schools.

I'm not really concerned about about the overall national standard when I see a group of students with different abilities in front of me. Also, have we not become institutionalised by "THE EXAM" and teaching to "THE EXAM"? ,to the detriment of comprehension. I agree that marking schemes, exemplars, and inservices are valuable but at the end of the day we need to have trust in our own abilities as teachers to be impartial. We should be teaching to the level and abilities of the class and not the 'bell curve' that so many of us complain about.

Granted the LC requires that level of impartiality, but for 14 and 15 year olds!!! I think I'm more than happy to judge and be accountable for my own students. I'd much prefer to teach my subject rather than teach how to game the exam.

As regards bell curves and average students... For there to be an 'average student' it is necessary that just less than 50% of students fall below the average! How fair is that

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

To be honest some teachers do. Some are easy markers, some have a rough bell curve of grades where the best student in the class will get an A even if they are not A standard. I've met teachers who've said this to me. If my best student is a C student then a C is what they'll get from me.

Some teachers have never corrected with the SEC and have no idea what the national standard is like and correct according to their own personal opinion on what they think is acceptable.

The very fact that almost every student in the country gets the full 10% for writing up the mandatory experiments in science is indicative of this. I don't believe for one moment that practically every student in the country completes every experiment and writes them up satisfactorily yet practically everyone gets full marks.

Also if say the test for presence of starch is part of coursework and my student gives correct result of 'blue black colour change is positive result' and I give full marks and the teacher in the school down the road gives full marks for same question where student writes 'turns purple' and the teachers justification is 'sure its more or less right and I know Johnny so I knew what he was on about' then the standard required to achieve a particular grade in two schools varies wildly. One student will have to be exact and factually correct and try other only has to be vaguely in the ball park area of being correct.

Standards could end up varying wildly between schools simply because teachers have different standards.

As it stands there are 5 exam boards which provide A level exams in the UK not like our one standard SEC exam. Some of those exam boards are considered to be of a better standard than others to the point that some universities would have a greater value for A levels from board X over board Y.

I wouldn't like to see schools here compared like that. i.e. it's much easier to get an A in science in school A than school B because of varying standards.

While students here by and large don't need their junior cert for work purposes or college entry as most students do the LC I wouldn't like to see the school be the determining factor in a students grade rather than the students ability, hence the need for some sort of standardisation and training of some description

For 14 or 15 year olds a simple question a teacher needs to ask is:

Do they understand it?

not

How do my students compare with the national average

rainbowtrout

Armelodie wrote: »

For 14 or 15 year olds a simple question a teacher needs to ask is:

Do they understand it?

not

How do my students compare with the national average

But at what level are you happy that they understand it? Are you happy if they just have a vague notion of the concept you are talking about or are you happy if they have an indepth understanding of the concept. If you give your assessment of your students do you say 'they all understand it' when some have a great understanding and some understand only the basics? How do you differentiate between students of different abilities?

Well if that was the case why do we have qualifications for anything? Why did you need a qualification to become a teacher?

A standard of some sort states that you have reached a particular level of learning and for certain jobs or tasks states that you are capable of completing that job to a certain level.

If you hire an electrician to wire your house, you get the guy that's qualified, not the guy that 'knows a bit about electricity, did a bit in his own house'. If you go to a doctor you want someone who knows how to diagnose you and prescribe the best course of action.


It has very little to do with national averages really, but if you want a fair comparison of your students you assess them all on the same criteria. If you are an employer and you want to compare two students from different schools/parts of the country, how do you compare them? Well it's easy if they have been assessed on the same criteria, you can see the difference between the two.


Someone mentioned FETAC earlier on in the thread, I've taught FETAC modules for years. The odd time I've had students come from another centre who have other FETAC qualifications and if they've showed me their results and I see distinctions I think 'Great, this student should have no trouble in the follow on course' but the odd time I have students come in with good results and the reality is not the same, and they haven't a clue because clearly the standards applied in that other centre were not as stringent as they should be and grades were awarded that were not deserved. It devalues the grades a student gets in that centre who genuinely deserves it because when they move on to further education or work, if standards are not high enough word gets around, certainly on a local level if the grades awarded actually mean anything. E.g. if we give everyone distinctions in Word Processing because they 'understand' how to do it, a local employer takes on some of our students and finds they can't type up a letter to a satisfactory level, then our award becomes redundant because the student can't do what their grade implies they can do.

I've had such students come to my course with Distinctions in word processing who couldn't type a basic paragraph without it being littered with mistakes. I would feel the same about other courses in this case Junior Cert. Awards grades and qualifications that have some definite meaning and value.

implausible

Armelodie wrote: »

I'm not really concerned about about the overall national standard when I see a group of students with different abilities in front of me. Also, have we not become institutionalised by "THE EXAM" and teaching to "THE EXAM"? ,to the detriment of comprehension. I agree that marking schemes, exemplars, and inservices are valuable but at the end of the day we need to have trust in our own abilities as teachers to be impartial. We should be teaching to the level and abilities of the class and not the 'bell curve' that so many of us complain about.

But surely a national standard is exactly what having state exams is all about! "Teacher X thinks I'm really good at English" is not as valuable an assessment as "I got a B in a state exam". It's not the teaching I'm concerned with, it's the assessment. Using different exam companies and assessment has screwed up the English system. We have a good system as regards integrity and standards, we need to be very careful before we jump into messing this up.

I, for one, do not doubt my ability to impartially judge my students' work on a national standard. It's not about confidence, it's about the Dept or the SEC providing us with the tools and skills needed to judge that work fairly across the board and stringent external examining - the example of the Science experiments prove that the latter is needed.

Coming from a DEIS school where we break our backs to ensure our students can perform in a state exam despite their difficulties, I worry that we (for example) might judge the work fairly, while other schools might implement their own standards and use it as a rod to beat us with. Likewise, what might be considered a 'good' result in our school might be average in another.

I'm in favour of changing the system as long as its integrity remains intact.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But at what level are you happy that they understand it? Are you happy if they just have a vague notion of the concept you are talking about or are you happy if they have an indepth understanding of the concept.

I'm happy if all of them have at least some comprehension of the basics. I'm even happier if most of them can progress to a production stage. I'm happiest in the extreme if a small few of them can progress to understanding at a deeper level.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

If you give your assessment of your students do you say 'they all understand it' when some have a great understanding and some understand only the basics? How do you differentiate between students of different abilities?

That's just differentiation which we learned about in the HDip No? i.e. differentiation by outcome/process etc. Are you asking how to differentiate a mixed ability class?

rainbowtrout

Armelodie wrote: »

I'm happy if all of them have at least some comprehension of the basics. I'm even happier if most of them can progress to a production stage. I'm happiest in the extreme if a small few of them can progress to understanding at a deeper level.



That's just differentiation which we learned about in the HDip No? i.e. differentiation by outcome/process etc. Are you asking how to differentiate a mixed ability class?

No I'm not talking about mixed ability teaching, I'm well capable of teaching mixed ability classes, I have been teaching long enough.

I'm talking about how do you differentiate in the standard and ability of a student involves stating that they understand the concept on a scale that the students understand?

We use grades to do just that. Students getting an A grade have an excellent understanding of a topic, B is good but maybe not the same level of detail, C is a good grasp of basic concepts etc....

A national standard ensures that your interpretation of what an excellent standard is and the teacher's interpretation in the school down the road is the same, so you can compare two students fairly.

If it gets to the point where the LC includes similiar coursework (not unlike the UK A-levels) if your interpretation of what constitutes an excellent student and mine are completely different I could be giving my students a B grade for what you think is good enough for an A grade. It could well be that I'm marking too harshly or you're marking too easy. Either way, it's the student that gets the A grades that will be offered the place in third level first, a place which they may not deserve because they don't have the standard needed for the course due to the way they were graded or it could mean that the B grade student missed out because they weren't given the grade that they meritted.

A national standard means that a student in school A should get the same grade as they would in School B for submitting the same piece of coursework.