Star Trek Into Darkness [** SPOILERS FROM POST 147 **]

Kirby

I think that perhaps I'm going mad or remembering things differently so perhaps somebody with a great memory can help me out. It's a fairly trivial thing but it bothered me on my last watch.

Was Khan's leg break of Carol Marcus cut from the Blu-ray?

I recall seeing it in the cinema and being fairly shocked by it but in the Blu-ray, they don't show it. In the Blu-ray, he slams his leg down and it cuts away and she screams....it's all implied. But I remember it being shown a lot better in the cinema release.

I haven't seen a mention of it and it seems like an odd thing to cut. Am I remembering things that never happened again? :P

MrVestek

I don't remember seeing it physically happen in the theatre either.

Sad Professor

I haven't seen the Blu-ray yet, but I don't remember seeing the leg break in the cinema either. However, editing and sound effects can make you think you saw something that you didn't. I thought that scene was very well done.

Oh and re: the Blu-ray, it seems the iTunes digital download that comes with it includes the commentary.

somuj

Kirby wrote: »

I think that perhaps I'm going mad or remembering things differently so perhaps somebody with a great memory can help me out. It's a fairly trivial thing but it bothered me on my last watch.

Was Khan's leg break of Carol Marcus cut from the Blu-ray?

I recall seeing it in the cinema and being fairly shocked by it but in the Blu-ray, they don't show it. In the Blu-ray, he slams his leg down and it cuts away and she screams....it's all implied. But I remember it being shown a lot better in the cinema release.

I haven't seen a mention of it and it seems like an odd thing to cut. Am I remembering things that never happened again? :P

Your not crazy it was in the movie. He had a very demonic face while doing it and then she let out one hell of a scream.

MrVestek

somuj wrote: »

Your not crazy it was in the movie. He had a very demonic face while doing it and then she let out one hell of a scream.

Yes I remember that but I don't think we actually saw him physically break her leg as the previous poster suggests. I seem to remember it cutting away to an exterior of the Vengeance.

SarahBM

I think I remember seeing him stamp on her leg and thinking "Janny Mack, did they have to do that?!?"

Kiith

I'm doing a 10 (+ the new ones if i have time) film marathon over the next few days, and watching all the Trek films back to back. Will be interesting seeing some of the older ones, as i've not seen any of them since watching the two most recent ones.

Can't wait :P

Goodshape

Kiith wrote: »

I'm doing a 10 (+ the new ones if i have time) film marathon over the next few days, and watching all the Trek films back to back. Will be interesting seeing some of the older ones, as i've not seen any of them since watching the two most recent ones.

Can't wait :P

Literally just about throw on The Motion Picture as I read this

Don't think I'll be doing any two-day marathon but I have the blu-ray versions here, so going to start at the start and work my way through over the next couple weeks or whatever. Been a while since I've seen any and first time in HD. Slightly disappointed they didn't get TMP Director's Cut on blu-ray, but I'll get over it.

the_monkey

I finally saw this and enjoyed it.
I thought the 1st one was better, this had a great story but I thought the action and fights went on a bit.

Lockedout

I think it was a good movie BUT I feel its not being creative enough. It seems to be rehashing stories from Star Trek Original Series Movies rather than going its own direction. Why cant it create its own villains? The First film did this but when I heard KHAN -again!! Groan. Sure, it improved on Star Trek 2 but its still Khan.

Even the death scene with Kirk was a direct lift.

norrie rugger

Improved on ST:II?????

Lockedout

norrie rugger wrote: »

Improved on ST:II?????

Im not sure of your point? Was it a better film than the wrath of Khan-I think so but you have to keep in mind ST2 had a small budget compared to the first film . Im sure the budget of this film was much higher-even adjusting for inflation. Budgets on their own dont make a good film of course but I stand over my assessment.

_Kaiser_

Lockedout wrote: »

Im not sure of your point? Was it a better film than the wrath of Khan-I think so but you have to keep in mind ST2 had a small budget compared to the first film . Im sure the budget of this film was much higher-even adjusting for inflation. Budgets on their own dont make a good film of course but I stand over my assessment.

A bigger budget and lens flare does not make this a better film.

WoK was far superior to this noisy, confusing mess. Better story, better characterisation and much better action and drama - despite the "inferior" effects.

Here's my own review from the Films thread:

As a fan of the original/Prime continuity and series/movies I really didn't think I'd enjoy the 09 reboot but despite myself I enjoyed it, even more on repeat viewings.

But this... this is just godawful tripe! Half the cast/crew barely gets a look-in this time round (including Bones surprisingly) - it seems they went down the route of Enterprise with Archer, Trip and T'Pol being replaced by Kirk, Spock and Khan in this one, right down to Scotty's vaguely Enterprise-styled uniform but grey instead of blue. Carol Marcus was clearly just included to strip off for the teenage boys in the audience.

Speaking of uniforms.. what were they all wearing during Kirk's speech at the end? Caps and all?!

Then there's the "story" - a confused mess of noisy, random action set-pieces and lens flare, out-of-place nods to the original continuity, the virtually line-by-line copy of the Spock death scene from Wrath of Khan (but with Kirk this time - and the ridiculous Spock "NOOOOOOOOOOO!" er... I mean "KHHHAAAAAAAANNN!" scream?! Please!) only to undo the whole thing 15 minutes later with "superblood"

Speaking of Spock.. Nimoy's cameo was criminally underused this time to the point that they should have just cut it entirely. Then there's Kirk's 20-minute demotion at the start.. he made Captain (again) even quicker than the first time!

"Old" Trek did need a fresh start and while I didn't agree with everything the 09 film did, it did work as a decent Trek-themed sci-fi blockbuster but this latest one is a shambles from start to finish. The original sequel (Wrath of Khan) had genuine heart, emotion, action and consequences that resonated through the next 2 movies in the series - this I'll have probably forgotten by next week.

2/10 and that's only because I like Peter Weller and his Admiral Cartwright impression.

After sleeping on it, I concluded that:

Slept on it and no, it's still a mess!

In fact, it reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAgODVbPq78

... right down to the whole "frat-boy" atmosphere between the senior staff and the way communicators are now apparently long-distance mobiles too (and yea I know you can say Kirk's call to Scotty in the bar was routed through the ship's comm system but we've never seen them do that before either - it's always from a console or the bridge).

Martin's intro in the above clip about execs wanting to recast with younger, edgier crew is something I could really imagine happening during the 09 reboot discussions.

FutureGuy

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

A bigger budget and lens flare does not make this a better film.

WoK was far superior to this noisy, confusing mess. Better story, better characterisation and much better action and drama - despite the "inferior" effects.

Here's my own review from the Films thread:



After sleeping on it, I concluded that:

Sorry man but I find that to be ridiculously nit-picky.

norrie rugger

FutureGuy wrote: »

Sorry man but I find that to be ridiculously nit-picky.

Inter system teleporters... why have ships (it was bad enough in the first film, beaming to Enterprise)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B22Uy7SBe4

FutureGuy

I'm sorry but to be fair, I could pick apart a lot of those criticisms but I'd be here for the day.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_trek_into_darkness/

Alot of the angst and annoyance I have read about STID is based on the fact that it is different from the original timelime.

How can they have transwarp beaming? Differnt timeline.
How can the enterprise take so much damage? Different timeline.
Why has Marcus an English accent? Different timeline.

The only thing I have an issue with is the superblood, but a quick throwaway line in the next movie can fix that. The same way that transwarp beaming was buried in STID (Scotty saying his equation was confiscated). And remember that S31 have incredible powers to appear out of nowhere in DS9.

I wonder if we had the internet when TMP came out, would it have been picked apart as viciously as the new films?

"Klingons with forehead ridges? What the fcuk were they thinking?"

"New Enterprise? That looks stupid and looks nothing like the old one - it can't be a refit!!!"

"Those new uniforms look nothing like the old ones!"

"What the hell, look at those starbases!"



Putting it simply, any attempt to produce a movie like TWOK today would bomb. We live in an age of super spies, superheroes and supervillains.

TWOK is a good film, but as a standalone film, I think STID is incredibly rewatchable and highly enjoyable.

norrie rugger

FutureGuy wrote: »

I'm sorry but to be fair, I could pick apart a lot of those criticisms but I'd be here for the day.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_trek_into_darkness/

Alot of the angst and annoyance I have read about STID is based on the fact that it is different from the original timelime.

How can they have transwarp beaming? Differnt timeline.
How can the enterprise take so much damage? Different timeline.
Why has Marcus an English accent? Different timeline.

The only thing I have an issue with is the superblood, but a quick throwaway line in the next movie can fix that. The same way that transwarp beaming was buried in STID (Scotty saying his equation was confiscated). And remember that S31 have incredible powers to appear out of nowhere in DS9.

I wonder if we had the internet when TMP came out, would it have been picked apart as viciously as the new films?

"Klingons with forehead ridges? What the fcuk were they thinking?"

"New Enterprise? That looks stupid and looks nothing like the old one - it can't be a refit!!!"

"Those new uniforms look nothing like the old ones!"

"What the hell, look at those starbases!"



Putting it simply, any attempt to produce a movie like TWOK today would bomb. We live in an age of super spies, superheroes and supervillains.

TWOK is a good film, but as a standalone film, I think STID is incredibly rewatchable and highly enjoyable.

Different timeline is fine, magic tech though? That is more in line with Sci-Fan like StarWars (where it works). I don't care about Enterprise taking hits, I care about it ignoring established series physics, warp is now seemingly as fast as transwarp. Earth to Kronos in a few minutes.
Transporters now beaming Earth to Kronos FFS; I'm sorry but that is really pushed beyond all techno babble.

Different timeline does not explain those.

I also hated the fact that it is a (bad) clone of ST:II. A new universe and different time line? Well do a story that is new and different please.
I really don't care about updated look and feel of the Enterprise/Technology but it should at least be somewhat close, to ability, of TOS and not randomly flexed beyond credibility, based on lazy scriptwriting

Myrddin

norrie rugger wrote: »

Different timeline is fine, magic tech though?

Was the Genesis device in the much loved TWOK not magic enough for you? :P

FutureGuy

norrie rugger wrote: »

Different timeline is fine, magic tech though? That is more in line with Sci-Fan like StarWars (where it works). I don't care about Enterprise taking hits, I care about it ignoring established series physics, warp is now seemingly as fast as transwarp. Earth to Kronos in a few minutes.
Transporters now beaming Earth to Kronos FFS; I'm sorry but that is really pushed beyond all techno babble.

Different timeline does not explain those.

They are not transporters. They are transwarp transporters. They are a result of Spock sharing knowledge from a different timeline. It was explained perfectly over the course of both ST2009 and STID. You proved my earlier point regarding complaints.

norrie rugger wrote: »

I also hated the fact that it is a (bad) clone of ST:II. A new universe and different time line? Well do a story that is new and different please.
I really don't care about updated look and feel of the Enterprise/Technology but it should at least be somewhat close, to ability, of TOS and not randomly flexed beyond credibility, based on lazy scriptwriting

Regarding the speed, would you rather they completely slow the pace of the film down to satisfy this need for consitency? These are action films, not space dramas. Which one will make $400m at the box office and which will make $80m.

As for you point regarding the consisteny of speed in the ST Universe, I have to laugh at that comment tbh.

"Where no man has gone before" - Let's all go to the edge of the galaxy right away!!!"

"Star Trek 5" - Lets all go to the centre of the Galaxy right away!!!

Hmm, shouldn't both journeys take hundreds of years given the fact that a ship as fast as Voyager (crusing speed of 9.975) would take 30 years to make either journey from Earth?

And yet you complain about STID that it seemingly takes minutes to reach Kronos? Please.

Klingons now have forehead ridges in TMP! Out of absolutely nowhere! The entire morphology of the species rewritten overnight! Again, no problems with that? Thankfully we had a TV show on air that did a good job to explain this in a 2-part epidose (25 years later).

Lazy scriptwriting causing random flexibility...hmm, let's see.

Star Trek IV: "Let's all time travel on a whim because it serves the purpose of the story" - Scientist in TNG era still cannot timetravel ffs. 130 years later!But again, that's no problem but the events of the alt timeline are!

Star Trek III: "Spock is alive now!!! Why? Oh something about that planet did it! Death is cured! Yay!!!"

Star Trek TOS and V "Lets go super fast because it serves a plot point"

And yet you call out STID because it is inconsistent with previous Star Trek? It's like getting angry about an apple not being like an orange because the orange is exactly like a pear.

Finally, comparing this film to SWE2 removes most of the credibility you had imho.

FutureGuy

EnterNow wrote: »

Was the Genesis device in the much loved TWOK not magic enough for you? :P

This x 1000000

norrie rugger

EnterNow wrote: »

Was the Genesis device in the much loved TWOK not magic enough for you? :P

It did not counter anything previously explored.



Travel to Kronos does not need to be hours long, just not shown to be immediate. If you take it to the furthest extreme the Federation could launch a surprise attack to the heart of the Klingon Empire, without any forewarning!

Spock coming back with magic transporters is the same thing. The Prime universe could not even get transwarp working and (in the returned Scotty lifetime) they get transwarp beaming perfected and applicable to transporters 100+ years in tech. Never mind that they can now transport troops directly to enemy planets from Earth.


I liked the fact that they were rebooting the universe, I forgave the way they did it (red frikken matter) but this film has too many stupid Dues Ex Machina moments. And plain character stupidity

Myrddin

norrie rugger wrote: »

It did not counter anything previously explored.

No, it was too busy creating a class M planet, conveniently in the middle of the goldilocks zone of a brand new sun to have time to counter anything :P In all honesty, I'd a huge post written out here about two weeks ago, detailing all the 'magic' & stupid plot holes of every single Star Trek movie to date. I decided against posting it because it was too long, & I get the feeling that no matter what anyone says, people are still going to nit pick holes in the new films, while singing the praises of the classics and conveniently ignoring the problems with them.

Travel to Kronos does not need to be hours long, just not shown to be immediate. If you take it to the furthest extreme the Federation could launch a surprise attack to the heart of the Klingon Empire, without any forewarning!

As has been mentioned, these are action films that don't have the luxury of seven seasons of air-time to indulge in conveying travel times. How long did it take the Enterprise to travel from neutral space to Rura Pente to rescue Kirk? After Uhura bluffed her way through a border check {:rolleyes:} it seemed to get there very quickly no? That's just one of tons of examples. I really don't see why things like this are an issue, the film has the run time of three standard episodes...why waste the time?

Spock coming back with magic transporters is the same thing. The Prime universe could not even get transwarp working and (in the returned Scotty lifetime) they get transwarp beaming perfected and applicable to transporters 100+ years in tech. Never mind that they can now transport troops directly to enemy planets from Earth.

Section 31 in DS9 were able to do it? Plus who knows how things progressed after Voyager returned home, loaded with future tech...of which Spock was no doubt able to bring with him to the alt timeline. It's silly things like why the heck was the Enterprise studying a primitive species from the ocean floor that'd bother me more than anything like this.

I liked the fact that they were rebooting the universe, I forgave the way they did it (red frikken matter) but this film has too many stupid Dues Ex Machina moments. And plain character stupidity

Again, you could be talking about any one of the classic films there, they're literally full of holes if you're prepared to look for them

_Kaiser_

EnterNow wrote: »

Section 31 in DS9 were able to do it? Plus who knows how things progressed after Voyager returned home, loaded with future tech...of which Spock was no doubt able to bring with him to the alt timeline.

I don't think it was ever established that Section 31 used interplanetary beaming? For all we know Sloan may have just had a ship with a non-standard/hi-tech cloaking device nearby.

Voyager got upgraded armor and weapons but even with Admiral Janeway's future shuttle, the Borg Queen was still able to beam her out of it. Janeway also couldn't beam from Voyager's transporter room into the Borg complex.

Presumably alt-Starfleet is already en-route to wipe out the Borg of their era (ST3 perhaps). With ultra-transwarp drive that should take about 3 months maybe?

Anyway, leaving aside the tech differences the biggest problem for me is they have completely thrown away what made the original film (the even-numbered ones anyway) work.. the characters and story. Instead we get a bunch of fratboys that we're supposed to believe would be given command of a starship and responsibility for hundreds of lives, recycled - and butchered - plots, lots of "action" and splosions, and women that are only there to get em out for the lads.

All of which is fine in something like Starship Troopers because that's the universe that's been established (and I enjoy that film in that context), but this nonsense is not Star Trek and the "alternate timeline" excuse is just an opportunity for lazy writers and directors to slap a brand on "generic sci-fi action film #56767" and watch the money roll in.

Myrddin

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I don't think it was ever established that Section 31 used interplanetary beaming? For all we know Sloan may have just had a ship with a non-standard/hi-tech cloaking device nearby.

No it was never established the actual method, we were just handed it as a form of secret way of beaming, & we lapped it up. Sure the Iconians had intergalactic transporters millenia ago in one universe, what's to say some 23rd century genius wasn't born in the alt universe & figured out how interplanetary beaming? Why should one time line be held accountable for another?

Voyager got upgraded armor and weapons but even with Admiral Janeway's future shuttle, the Borg Queen was still able to beam her out of it. Janeway also couldn't beam from Voyager's transporter room into the Borg complex.

And in the years since Voyager returned, how do we know what was or wasn't developed? And again, it's an alternate timeline, one universe's janitor is another universes prodigy, that''s the whole point, things are different

Anyway, leaving aside the tech differences the biggest problem for me is they have completely thrown away what made the original film (the even-numbered ones anyway) work.. the characters and story. Instead we get a bunch of fratboys that we're supposed to believe would be given command of a starship and responsibility for hundreds of lives, recycled - and butchered - plots, lots of "action" and splosions, and women that are only there to get em out for the lads.

All of which is fine in something like Starship Troopers because that's the universe that's been established (and I enjoy that film in that context), but this nonsense is not Star Trek and the "alternate timeline" excuse is just an opportunity for lazy writers and directors to slap a brand on "generic sci-fi action film #56767" and watch the money roll in.

We had three full seasons, & six feature length films to get to know & love the established characters we all know & love. We've got what, 240 minutes so far with this crew. It's a tall ask to expect the chemistry we're used to, in such a short time.

While I do agree that the whole graduate & become a Captain in a year or two malarky is madness & just not believable, I can forgive it. It's as if the film is saying "Hey, everyone knows who Jim Kirk is, here's some back story on him for a few mins, we'll get to the space battles in a few mins". It's grand, I really don't mind the direction they went. Trek as we knew it was done to death, & was puffing for breath on its last legs. Something different had to be done. I think given the circumstances, they've made two very enjoyable action films.

norrie rugger

The problem that I have is that it was heading towards StarWars level of random tech and SciFantasy, rather than Trek

MrVestek

Just re-watched this again last night on Bluray.

Have to say I enjoyed it alot more upon second viewing.

Alot of the gripes that I had originally when it was in the cinema have been addressed upon the second viewing as there were things I originally missed in the dialogue such as Scotty saying that his equation for transwarp beaming was confiscated.

It's still a little bit silly that somebody can transport from the Alpha to the Beta quadrant but that's a different debate.

It'll really change Voyager's timeline in this new continuity.

Ohh crap we're stuck on in the Delta Quadrant!

No problem, let's beam back safe and sound to our houses on earth and leave Voyager behind. Huzzah!

FutureGuy

Achilles wrote: »

Just re-watched this again last night on Bluray.

Have to say I enjoyed it alot more upon second viewing.

Alot of the gripes that I had originally when it was in the cinema have been addressed upon the second viewing as there were things I originally missed in the dialogue such as Scotty saying that his equation for transwarp beaming was confiscated.

It's still a little bit silly that somebody can transport from the Alpha to the Beta quadrant but that's a different debate.

It'll really change Voyager's timeline in this new continuity.

Ohh crap we're stuck on in the Delta Quadrant!

No problem, let's beam back safe and sound to our houses on earth and leave Voyager behind. Huzzah!

In getting my nerd on. Earth is exactly on the border of Alpha and Beta quadrants. But I do know what you mean.

I'm hoping the confiscation of the equation means the tech is buried for everyone but S31.

Remember, in STIII, Scotty literally ended all of Starfleets projects on Transwarp because, and this is hilarious if you think about it, he removed a few bolts :-D

So if we can forgive that, we can forgive translated beaming. :-)

I've watched it 5 times now. I'm wrapped up sick and I'll probably put it on again today. Very enjoyable :-)

MrVestek

FutureGuy wrote: »

In getting my nerd on. Earth is exactly on the border of Alpha and Beta quadrants. But I do know what you mean.

I'm hoping the confiscation of the equation means the tech is buried for everyone but S31.

Remember, in STIII, Scotty literally ended all of Starfleets projects on Transwarp because, and this is hilarious if you think about it, he removed a few bolts :-D

So if we can forgive that, we can forgive translated beaming. :-)

I've watched it 5 times now. I'm wrapped up sick and I'll probably put it on again today. Very enjoyable :-)

Ahh yes but don't forget that transwarp on this timeline wasn't going past Warp 10. It was going past their current warp scale - which was severely adjusted by the time TNG came around.

I can't remember my source for this, the Trek encyclopedia I think.
There's something about it on Wikipedia here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_drive_%28Star_Trek%29#Warp_velocities