The Assaults on Emergency Workers Bill 2012

starviewadams

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1005/assault-on-emergency-workers-bill.html

Another great decision from our beloved and modestly paid politicians.

A Bill was proposed within Dail Eireann today to create powers of mandatory sentencing for persons who cause violence or aggression towards members of the emergency services and frontline staff. It was however voted against and was not passed because some politicians thought it would "not allow for a subtle approach in some instances"

FatherLen

not allow for a subtle approach in some instances

What exactly does this even mean?

HerrScheisse

Just wonderful, a two tier justice system, whatever will they dream up next in their crooked little minds.

Jay D

Stupid idea.

Of course great that he'll get slapped on the back from Guards on the stairs but what happens then when another member has an issue with an individual, and decides to slap on extra charges after an arrest to boost the case?

So you have someone in a slight mishap suddenly facing the prospect of such a long stint in prison. Never mind that thugs who beat the absolute crap out of someone won't face anything like 5 years. Bravo minister.

Johro

In the case of serious assault like those shown in your pic, throw the f#ckers in jail for a long long time by all means, but try each case separately and punish the level of the crime.

Seaneh

I think applying it to firefighters, EMT's nurses etc is one thing but making it apply to gardai is idiotic.

IT would be totally abused, Gardai could batton rush a protest, the crowd reacts and then people get 5 years for assault?

**** off.

Johro

'Independent TD Finian McGrath said he was extremely disappointed that neither the Taoiseach or the Minister for Justice were present at today's sitting of the Dáil.'

Fuckin right too.

Pherekydes

Johro wrote: »

'Independent TD Finian McGrath said he was extremely disappointed that neither the Taoiseach or the Minister for Justice were present at today's sitting of the Dáil.'

Fuckin right too.

You left out the very next sentence:

He was informed that Minister for Defence Alan Shatter was ill today.

ArmaniJeanss

Opposition Party proposes a grandly titled bill, full in the knowledge that it won't have the support to pass.

Hardly something to make a fuss or start a thread over.

***
Fianna Fail had 11 years of continuous majority government to get this sort of bill through if they wanted.

Johro

Pherekydes wrote: »

You left out the very next sentence:

Fair enough, failure to read on, point taken. I'm often annoyed at how few of our so called representatives actually attend the dail so took it for granted.

reprazant

The Government has rejected a Fianna Fáil Bill to impose mandatory prison sentences on people convicted of assault on emergency workers while on duty.

Minister of State Paul Kehoe said there was legislation in place “which is more appropriate and comprehensive in meeting such requirements”.

...
...
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Speaking on behalf of the Government Mr Kehoe also said there were legal difficulties with the definition in the Bill of emergency workers.

A final report on mandatory sentencing is under preparation by the Law Reform Commission and Minister for Justice Alan Shatter has established a working group to conduct a strategic review of penal policy “which will also include an examination of sentencing policies”, Mr Kehoe said.

Sinn Féin’s Dessie Ellis highlighted the tactic of some people at Hallowe’en, often when they were on drugs, of acting to “entice emergency workers to bonfires to attack them”.

He said his party would support the legislation at the initial stage, but he believed “those engaged in such attacks do need to be punished but mandatory sentences are a crude measures. Applying mandatory sentences does not allow the court to take in the nuances of a particular offence”.

Independent TD Catherine Murphy said she broadly supported the legislation but said it was “not the entire solution”. The Kildare North TD said: “Too often we start thinking legislation on its own can solve the ills of the country”, but there were other considerations, including the “neglect of civic culture”.

It would seem that most parties, including independents, voted against the bill which would imply that the bill was badly written. Maybe blame the authors of the bill?

Chuck Stone

I'd much rather see mandatory sentences for child abuse and rape. Judges seem to be way too lenient when it comes to these nasty scum abusers.

It seems odd that they'd want to make special crimes for assault on people who shirley understand that the very nature of their job means there is a substantial risk of injury.

Mr Simpson

Jesus lads. Guards shouldn't be assaulted simply because they're Guards. They face a lot of challenges on a day to day basis, having the crap kicked out of them because of the uniform they wear shouldn't be one of them.

At the moment, there is absolutely no fear of reprecussion to stop people from assaulting them.

It wouldn't apply to a simple shove in the chests, it would be for serious assaults, which occur every day.

Cool_CM

If it specifies "on duty" then what's the problem?

mmcn90

mmcn90 wrote: »

At the moment, there is absolutely no fear of reprecussion to stop people from assaulting them.

It's the same for the rest of us.

Johro

mmcn90 wrote: »

Jesus lads. Guards shouldn't be assaulted simply because they're Guards. They face a lot of challenges on a day to day basis, having the crap kicked out of them because of the uniform they wear shouldn't be one of them.

At the moment, there is absolutely no fear of reprecussion to stop people from assaulting them.

It wouldn't apply to a simple shove in the chests, it would be for serious assaults, which occur every day.

No argument there. It's true though that Gardai will be aware of the risks their position holds. Nobody's suggesting kicking the crap out of guards is okay, just that they're in a different position from firefighters and ambulance crew or hospital nurses. Protection and care in the case of firefighters and hospital staff, rather than enforcement.

woodoo

I agree with this. It is aimed at scummers who attack public workers. You are not going to get 5 years for a flailing arm grazing of the side of a cops head as you fall over. This will be for outright assault. I just hope the judges impose it on the sort of people that did the damage to those personnel in the OP link

greenmat

Copied from the act. Feck all wrong with it in my eyes. The skangers have more protection than the law abiding citizens.






Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply where the Court

is satisfied where there is exceptional and specific circumstances

relating to the offence, or the person convicted of the offence, which

would make a sentence of not less than 5 years imprisonment unjust

in all the circumstances and for this purpose the Court may have 20

regard to any matters it considers appropriate, including




a) whether that person pleaded guilty to the offence and, if

so:

(i) the stage at which he indicated the intention to plead

guilty, and 25

(ii) the circumstances in which the indication was given,

and



b) whether that person materially assisted in the investigation

of the offence.

Biggins

When I first heard about this latest bill I welcomed the idea - and STILL do.
As some have pointed out, there are aspects of it though which need to be further looked at.

Anyone who assaults an EMT or a fireman while on the job absolutely deserves to be sent away for as long as possible - vile people like that shouldn't deserve a free life. However with Gardaí it's a little more difficult. When it says, "mandatory", does that mean there will be any process involved or will they be locked up straight away? I mean, if a Garda unjustly assaults a member of the public, which has and can happen, admittedly rarely, does that mean that they cannot defend themselves, without risk of sentencing?

MagicSean

Just to address some points raised

1) A two-tier justice system
People have asked why emergency services personnel should be treated differently to others when the effects of the assault can be the same for everyone. This is true but this kind of law is not about the victim, it's about the effects of an assault on a bigger scale. If you assault a fireman you are not just affecting him, you are affecting the people he is trying to help. Same goes for medical staff. If you assault a nurse in a&e that is one less person to help patients during that night, same goes for a doctor on call. Then let's look at it on a wider scale. How long until firemen start refusing to go out on Halloween? You might say it's their job but its not really. Their job is to put out fires and help people. Their job is not to get pelted with stones and assaulted because someone wants to light a big fire in the middle of an estate. And every fire they go to will likely result in Gardaí having to go with them, pulling yet more resources away. So that's why I think people who attack emergency services workers should be punished harder. They are endangering more than just their victim.

2) Gardaí shouldn't be included because they should expect it in their job
Every Garda knows there is a likelihood they will be assaulted at some stage in their career. So what if they do? This doesn't make it alright. This doesn't make it in any way acceptable. Are we that kind of society that we just accept that people have a right to push a Garda or resist arrest and it should be accepted? Bull****. If you are placed under arrest you do not have any right to resist it. If you feel you were arrested unlawfully then sue the state. Same goes for protests. Being in a protest does not give you a licence to go where you want and do what you want. Trespass, assault and criminal damage are not legitimate forms of protest in a civilised society nor are they protected by any right under the constitution or human rights legislation. if you are part of a protest where the people around you are starting to throw stuff or are talking about charging then you remove yourself from that group. Otherwise you are as responsable for their actions as they are because you are supporting them.

3) Gardaí might use it against people they don't like
Gardaí cannot charge someone with assaulting a Garda. An investigation into such a crime must be conducted by a Sergeant or above. In cases with serious injury it will often be an inspector. Either the DPP or an Inspector must sanction any charge for assaulting a Garda. So it's not simply a matter of a Garda charging whoever they want. They have absolutely no say in it and are treated the same as any other person who has been assaulted. You could argue that they might lie, but this is a possibility in any crime so I don't see it's particular relevance here. If a garda is intent on lying and fabricating evidence to frame someone then it would be much easier for him to do it on a lesser crime.

It's also confusing the issue of guilt and punishment. A persons court case is in no way related to their sentancing. The decision on wether they are guilty or no is not affected by the possible sentence they might get. If a person is wrongly convicted of any crime it's a travesty but you cannot expect a judge to make allowances in sentencing on the possibility the person might be innocent.

4) It takes away the judges independence.
Having seen a child molestor walk free because the shame of it is punishment enough I couldn't care less about this point.

5)My own view
My own view is that minimum sentences should be imposed but I think five years is too much. Minimum 3-6 months for assaulting someone in the course of their work and minimum 3-5 years for injuring them. I think those sentences would be much fairer and effective and also allow for judges to accept mitigating factors. As far as i am concerned you have absolutely no right or excuse to assault any memeber of the emergency services but I'd hate to see some persons life ruined because they drank too much and took a swing at a Garda. A few weeks in prison followed by temporary release and remission might make a person less likely to drink so much and make that stupid decision in the future.

senordingdong

MagicSean wrote: »

5)My own view
My own view is that minimum sentences should be imposed but I think five years is too much. Minimum 3-6 months for assaulting someone in the course of their work and minimum 3-5 years for injuring them. I think those sentences would be much fairer and effective and also allow for judges to accept mitigating factors. As far as i am concerned you have absolutely no right or excuse to assault any memeber of the emergency services but I'd hate to see some persons life ruined because they drank too much and took a swing at a Garda. A few weeks in prison followed by temporary release and remission might make a person less likely to drink so much and make that stupid decision in the future.

Perhaps, but I think our system has proved that no sentence acts as a deterrent, harsh or otherwise. Furthermore, prosecutions in our courts always get multiple offences to run concurrently, with some portion of the sentence suspended...and then there is the mandatory remission.

Gardaí (and some judges) are often seeking or applying harsher sentences because they know that a significant portion of it will be written off anyway.

Chuck Stone

MagicSean wrote: »

Are we that kind of society that we just accept that people have a right to push a Garda or resist arrest and it should be accepted?

I certainly am. I would have had no problem flinging stones at and fighting the RUC if I'd lived in the Bogside of Derry a couple of decades ago.

Wearing a costume uniform does not automatically imbue its wearer with virtue.

History has shown this.

walrusgumble

HerrScheisse wrote: »

Just wonderful, a two tier justice system, whatever will they dream up next in their crooked little minds.

Eh, there are already provisions on the non fatal offence.against the person act deal with attacks on certain front line workers.

Considering front.line.workers receive treatment no different as if I was the north a few years ago eg fire brigades and ambulance being bricked nurses being attacked by drunken sub human scum in hospitals , considering the reason that they are exposed to parasites who act in such ways because of their job, as oppose to heading in a night out, it is highly unlikely you or others are in the same scope.

These provisions must be in place to deter scum from attacking them while they are coming to.the rescue of people. Far too many covers are out on sick leave due to obtaining severe injuries that were uncalled for. Many ordinary people who get injured.while at work, there is a chance that they can sue their employer for negligence and even due to acts of other employees.Not the same for many of these guys as attacks can be unforeseeable.

If they were not being attacked there would be no need for additional provisions.

walrusgumble

Chuck Stone wrote: »

MagicSean wrote: »

Are we that kind of society that we just accept that people have a right to push a Garda or resist arrest and it should be accepted?

I certainly am. I would have had no problem flinging stones at and fighting the RUC if I'd lived in the Bogside of Derry a couple of decades ago.

Wearing a costume uniform does not automatically imbue its wearer with virtue.

History has shown this.

Would you now. Even at risk of being batoned and charge.? Can never take the if I was....... or would have done... too seriously. Bar stooler. I assume that you were not out in force at love Ulster parade, what was your excuse that day, in school?

In Ireland an attack on a member of the police force is an attack on security of the country and a crime against the community. (like any other crime)

I know you are an idiot, but since when did th gardai become the RUC an the south part of Britain, since 1922?

Dont be talking about history either you indicate ignorance.

Wee Willy Harris

Contempt for such authority is still a relatively new phenomenon here, and calling out a fire engine or ambulance let alone to attack it wouldn't have been considered in my day so its a good barometer. Pity that didnt get passed, tbh as that culture needs to be made a example of and quashed

Chuck Stone

walrusgumble wrote: »

Would you now. Even at risk of being batoned and charge.? Can never take the if I was....... or would have done... too seriously. Bar stooler. I assume that you were not out in force at love Ulster parade, what was your excuse that day, in school?

I've been writing a response to this but I can't post it because I'll be banned.

Just look at my history and you'll see my stance.

*clenches teeth*

So basically we don't trust our judges to enforce laws as they are so some people's answer is to pass worse laws and trust them with those? Can't see any flaw with that.

MagicSean

Chuck Stone wrote: »

MagicSean wrote: »

Are we that kind of society that we just accept that people have a right to push a Garda or resist arrest and it should be accepted?

I certainly am. I would have had no problem flinging stones at and fighting the RUC if I'd lived in the Bogside of Derry a couple of decades ago.

Wearing a costume uniform does not automatically imbue its wearer with virtue.

History has shown this.

We neither live in the past nor in Derry, despite what your eirigi pals might have told you. None of what you said is relevant to the post you quoted to be honest.

end of the road

MagicSean wrote: »

if you are part of a protest where the people around you are starting to throw stuff or are talking about charging then you remove yourself from that group. Otherwise you are as responsable for their actions as they are because you are supporting them.

absolute rubbish, you are only responsable for your actions, unless you order others in your group to start throwing things at the police your not responsable at all, following that logic, someone who supports someone screwing the system is just as responsable for them doing it, no, time people took responsability for their own actions and the laws reflected that rather then blaming others for ones actions or holding them responsable for someone else doing something unless they actually told them to do it.

charlemont

Johro wrote: »

In the case of serious assault like those shown in your pic, throw the f#ckers in jail for a long long time by all means, but try each case separately and punish the level of the crime.

An innocent man is currently inside for one of them.

Randy Anders

Deleted User wrote: »

So basically we don't trust our judges to enforce laws as they are so some people's answer is to pass worse laws and trust them with those? Can't see any flaw with that.

Spot on

There are more than enough laws in place to cover assaults on frontline staff. It's the empty sack judges who are allowing the scum away with it that are the problem

Also, it doesn't sit well with me that there will be different sets of laws applying to different people, based on their profession

Capt'n Midnight

starviewadams wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1005/assault-on-emergency-workers-bill.html

mandatory sentencing

[/B]

How have the judiciary applied "mandatory sentencing" to drug dealers ?

Capt'n Midnight

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Fianna Fail had 11 years of continuous majority government to get this sort of bill through if they wanted.

It wasn't just 11 years

Apart from 15 December 1994 – 26 June 1997 (2.5 years) they were in power from 10 March 1987 until 9 March 2011. :mad:

gctest50

Ex - nurse that destroyed that gardas face :

http://www.herald.ie/news/courts/the-nurse-who-lost-her-career-for-bottle-attack-on-young-garda-thats-left-him-scarred-for-life-1443334.html

FanadMan

FatherLen wrote: »

What exactly does this even mean?

Exactly - what the hell are they on about? So it's fine to attack a Garda, fireman or nurse? Seen plenty of thugs attacking Guards and nurses in my local A&E - just a shame that the security there couldn't just throw a couple of punches. All they could do was phone for more Guards

walrusgumble

Chuck Stone wrote: »

walrusgumble wrote: »

Would you now. Even at risk of being batoned and charge.? Can never take the if I was....... or would have done... too seriously. Bar stooler. I assume that you were not out in force at love Ulster parade, what was your excuse that day, in school?

I've been writing a response to this but I can't post it because I'll be banned.

Just look at my history and you'll see my stance.

*clenches teeth*

Do us a favour, instead of clinching those teeth,how about breaking them up and swallowing them.

On the basis of.th stupidity of what you said earlier I rather not bother reading your history.

None of it dispels the fact that you never attacked RUC men, probably would not unless there were 30 of ye and 5 of them ( no matter how they deserved it) and more importantly, we are talking about southerner makes ans not that loss pot white hole that is Derry city or any other dump in the north. Neither are we living in the past. Th attitude of the majority towards the police etc is pretty healthy

walrusgumble

Randy Anders wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

So basically we don't trust our judges to enforce laws as they are so some people's answer is to pass worse laws and trust them with those? Can't see any flaw with that.

Spot on

There are more than enough laws in place to cover assaults on frontline staff. It's the empty sack judges who are allowing the scum away with it that are the problem

Also, it doesn't sit well with me that there will be different sets of laws applying to different people, based on their profession

Explain to me since when are.the judges the provider and builders or prisons? Judge sends them to jail , minister and governor have them out well in advance.

You are right however, we have plenty of legislation as it is. Seems to be a sop to frontline in case things like croke park agreement is ended.

greenmat

gctest50 wrote: »

Ex - nurse that destroyed that gardas face :

http://www.herald.ie/news/courts/the-nurse-who-lost-her-career-for-bottle-attack-on-young-garda-thats-left-him-scarred-for-life-1443334.html

Sensational newspaper headline again, feckin scumbag who wasn't a nurse.

senordingdong

Randy Anders wrote: »

Spot on

There are more than enough laws in place to cover assaults on frontline staff. It's the empty sack judges who are allowing the scum away with it that are the problem

Also, it doesn't sit well with me that there will be different sets of laws applying to different people, based on their profession

Not entirely true.
The judges are bound by the laws we have, and it is these laws that often let the knackers off lightly.

thecornflake

I never understood why it should apply only to emergency service workers. It should apply equally harsh to everyone. Assault is assault, on a fireman or shopkeeper or any other member of the public.

This country has a terrible problem of soft sentencing and "slaps on the wrist".

Feeona

Unfortunately there are a few people out there who 'know their rights' and go out of their way to harass, fight, kick and assault members of the frontline knowing full well that all they have to do if they get caught is tell a few lies to get the 'tax payers' money' employee into trouble. The amount of crap frontliners sometimes take in order to ensure a person's rights aren't infringed has to be seen to be believed.

On a similar note, but obviously not as dangerous a job as emergency services, I was teaching in a an educate together school last year. There was a poster on every wall in every classroom stating the rights of children to be taught in a safe environment. Great I thought. I went to look for the poster which stated the rights of the teacher to teach in a safe environment and there was none to be found. Hardly surprising then that children (and I'm not talking about teenagers) can get away with kicking, hitting, spitting at teachers, smashing teachers' car windscreen windows, stealing laptops etc without so much as a slap on the wrist (all events which have happened in schools I have worked in).

When working with the public, the bulk of the rights always rest with the public. Personally I think it should be fifty-fifty.

minidazzler

HerrScheisse wrote: »

Just wonderful, a two tier justice system, whatever will they dream up next in their crooked little minds.

There should be a second tier when it's someones job to go into a dangerous situation that is made more dangerous by people.

Johro

charlemont wrote: »

An innocent man is currently inside for one of them.

That's nothing to do with the proposed bill. That's another thing altogether. They will get it wrong sometimes, that's why there is an appeal system, but tbh he won't be the only innocent man/woman inside. The point is, accepting the bill or not won't change his fate.

the_syco

Chuck Stone wrote: »

It seems odd that they'd want to make special crimes for assault on people who shirley understand that the very nature of their job means there is a substantial risk of injury.

Are you referring to the Gardai, or the firefighters trying to rescue people or the ambulance crew trying to save someones life?

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I would have had no problem

Chuck Stone wrote: »

but I can't post it because

I find it odd that you claim that you would stand up for your beliefs if you think you may get away with it, but would not state your belief when you know you won't get away with it.

fishy fishy

Pherekydes wrote: »

You left out the very next sentence:

is that the equivalent of "the dog ate my homework" ??:D

charlemont

Johro wrote: »

That's nothing to do with the proposed bill. That's another thing altogether. They will get it wrong sometimes, that's why there is an appeal system, but tbh he won't be the only innocent man/woman inside. The point is, accepting the bill or not won't change his fate.

No bother, I don't condone any of those assaults as they were sickening acts. I was in a house fire before so I think anyone who would do anything to an emergency worker is a shíthead and deserves a long stretch.

I haven't read up much on the bill so I can't really comment on it, But I would be of the opinion that there would be existing laws that would cover these assaults. Any judge worth his salt should be sentencing people who cause serious assaults on emergency workers to long stretches.

I seem to recall an incident in Tipp Town back in '99 when a Fireman got hit with a brick, I knew the prick who did it and I'm certain he never done any time and him being him I'll guess he had no remorse either. That sort of man should have been locked up.

greenmat

charlemont wrote: »

I seem to recall an incident in Tipp Town back in '99 when a Fireman got hit with a brick, I knew the prick who did it and I'm certain he never done any time and him being him I'll guess he had no remorse either. That sort of man should have been locked up.

Did you report what you seen to the Gardai? If not, why?

Damathon111

A few years ago, a friend of mine punched an undercover Garda over an incident outside a nightclub where I think the undercover grabbed one of my other friends. My friend didn't know he was a Garda but ended up in court anyway. I hope there's an exemption for undercover because they look like citizens, especially when you're pissed drunk.

charlemont

greenmat wrote: »

Did you report what you seen to the Gardai? If not, why?

I wasn't there for it, Only read about after my mum had sent the local paper to me, I was working in Holland at the time.

greenmat

charlemont wrote: »

I wasn't there for it, Only read about after my mum had sent the local paper to me, I was working in Holland at the time.

Sorry, read ur post wrong.