Darlings going crazy on bus

MadsL

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Just because parents have a legal obligation does not mean they do it. Most parents send in a note after the event to explain the absence.

There is no "of course" about it. You are making assumptions. I find it much more likely that some parents simply decided to allow their kids have a day off to attend the ploughing. It happens every day that parents allow kids off for all sorts of events. Bringing kids to the ploughing and allowing older teens to attend the ploughing is very common in certain parts. You may not agree with it but does happen and it is nothing to do with the school.

A large contingent of pupils will be absent on a given day and the school is not told of the plans? Sure.

You seem very keen to defend the school.

Miss Lockhart

Boombastic wrote: »

Surely the school would have noticed if 40+ students didn't turn up to class and thought to themselves, something is afoot, we might just call some of the parents to see what is going on

And if they phoned and were told the kids were at the ploughing, then what? Parents can and do allow their kids to miss school all the time. The school can do nothing unless it reaches a certain number of days.

Bobsammy

Boombastic wrote: »

Surely the school would have noticed if 40+ students didn't turn up to class and thought to themselves, something is afoot, we might just call some of the parents to see what is going on

It's quite possible they did. But at that stage the kids are already gone. Very little the school can do.

Miss Lockhart

MadsL wrote: »

A large contingent of pupils will be absent on a given day and the school is not told of the plans? Sure.

You seem very keen to defend the school.

You seem very keen to blame the school.

Even if the school is told of the plans, what do you think they can do? Parents are the primary educators of their children and they are entitled to make such decisions.

Boombastic

I think it was said that the parents should be held accountable from the first post, no need for all the teachers to be getting defensive.

Miss Lockhart

Boombastic wrote: »

I think it was said that the parents should be held accountable from the first post, no need for all the teachers to be getting defensive.

Disagreeing and discussing the issue is not "getting defensive".

There have been other posts than the OPs - can we not engage with those posters too?

Boombastic

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Disagreeing and discussing the issue is not "getting defensive".

There have been other posts than the OPs - can we not engage with those posters too?

:rolleyes:

MadsL

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Disagreeing and discussing the issue is not "getting defensive".

There have been other posts than the OPs - can we not engage with those posters too?

What would you disagree with about what I have said?

In summary

1. It is likely the school were informed in advance as to the trip
2. There is a duty on the school to ensure the trip was supervised
3. If it goes badly then the school has a measure of responsibility for allowing pupils out of school without adequate supervision.

Miss Lockhart

MadsL wrote: »

What would you disagree with about what I have said?

In summary

1. It is likely the school were informed in advance as to the trip
2. There is a duty on the school to ensure the trip was supervised
3. If it goes badly then the school has a measure of responsibility for allowing pupils out of school without adequate supervision.

Yes, I disagree.

1. I think it is unlikely the school were informed in advance.
2. There is not a duty of care to ensure supervision of a trip organised by parents, independently of the school.
3. The school has not, according to the given information, allowed pupils out of school.

If the trip is organised by the school and the students were unsupervised then the principal should lose their job.

Maggie 2

I Am Kong! wrote: »

Whoever told the driver he had to collect the scumbags needs to grow a pair and his superiors should sack him.

He didn't. It was another bus company.

Maggie 2

MadsL wrote: »

I would have turned around and taken them back to the School, calling the Principal on the way. Why deliver this busload of muppets to a public event?

Incidentally, how were they allowed on the bus without teacher/adult supervision?

It had nothing to do with a school. It was a privately hired bus.

Sound of Silence

Maggie 2 wrote: »

It had nothing to do with a school. It was a privately hired bus.

If it's privately hired, then I would've assumed that the driver would immediately pull over and tell everyone to get off. Any sane Taxi driver would do the same thing.

No point in allowing those muppets to cause a fortune in damage.

MadsL

Maggie 2 wrote: »

It had nothing to do with a school. It was a privately hired bus.

They lost "out of school" privileges when they started causing criminal damage. I'm speechless that after four stops by Gardai they were not escorted by Gardai back to the school in order for the school to contact parents.

The bus driver surely cannot be expected to put up with this; and returning them to the school where they would normally be attending is the best solution for a mass transfer of "in loco parentis" responsibility. That or the local Garda Station.

That said I'm astonished that the bus company accepted "in loco parentis" responsibility in the first place.

Maggie 2

MadsL wrote: »

Sorry, let me get this straight. Instead of getting an education, teenagers are allowed out on a day's drinking unsupervised and parents and the school are fine with this?

Wtf?

The more I learn about transition year, the more I can't help thinking it is a colossal waste of time.

Please don't let this antisocial criminality form your view of Transition year. It can be a very good character building year. If run properly, it needn't be a drain on the family finances. Most schools have ditched the foreign trip in favour of something like Delphi. Both my children benefitted greatly from it. Their school funded TY by letting the students run the tuck shop for the year, with the profits going towards the various activities.

MadsL

Maggie 2 wrote: »

Please don't let this antisocial criminality form your view of Transition year. It can be a very good character building year. If run properly, it needn't be a drain on the family finances. Most schools have ditched the foreign trip in favour of something like Delphi. Both my children benefitted greatly from it. Their school funded TY by letting the students run the tuck shop for the year, with the profits going towards the various activities.

I agree, TY can be a great opportunity. One that I think is probably wasted by leaving kids in school for the year. Why not afford them the opportunity of shaping and organising their own TY. This could be one third individual (extended work experience or travel/exchange) one third societal (sex education, financial education, political/citizenship) and one third communal (agreeing as a year what impact they will make on their community and going and doing it)

spurious

Badly behaved brats = the responsibility of their parents.

Ludicrous that anyone is trying to suggest otherwise.

Black cats, black kittens.

MadsL

spurious wrote: »

Badly behaved brats = the responsibility of their parents.

Ludicrous that anyone is trying to suggest otherwise.

Black cats, black kittens.

Spurious, as a teacher would you say there is any way in hell that the school did not know about this trip in advance?

I can't see a bunch of teenagers saying, "here, lets go to the Ploughing, will be great craic" - it sounds a lot more like a "traditional" trip as part of TY. I would be astounded if the school were unware.

As a former teacher myself, there is no way in my day, kids could have organised this themselves and set off without supervision.

Boombastic

vicwatson wrote: »

Thank you thank you thank you

Ya cheat, I thought that was a link to the radio piece :pac:

Just for you radio link

http://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A10062140%3A83%3A05%2D10%2D2012%3A


@25 mins:p

MadsL

"None organised by schools"

What are schools thinking allowing unaccompanied trips in school hours is the bigger question.

Infallable

This happens all the time in schools down the country for the ploughing championships, completely independant of the school. one student organizes a bus , charges everyone €20 a head and pockets a nice profit for their bother. students tell their parents it's a school trip , parents drop them to the bus at half 5 in the morning. Students head off to ploughing, get locked , covered in **** and have a great time. Great fun ....

noxqs

What kind of person, regardless of intoxicated state, thinks its OK to urinate in a bus, throw stuff out the window (potential to hit a car behind, person, etc), rip up the seats (why?) etc.

And what kind of person defends this as "arrrr shure they're just a bunch' o lads having the craic.."...

You'd have to be a gigantic ass to do the above and there is really no excuse for that kind of behavior. I'd expect more civilized behavior from a drunk chimpanzee.

Infallable

MadsL wrote: »

spurious wrote: »

Badly behaved brats = the responsibility of their parents.

Ludicrous that anyone is trying to suggest otherwise.

Black cats, black kittens.

Spurious, as a teacher would you say there is any way in hell that the school did not know about this trip in advance?

I can't see a bunch of teenagers saying, "here, lets go to the Ploughing, will be great craic" - it sounds a lot more like a "traditional" trip as part of TY. I would be astounded if the school were unware.

As a former teacher myself, there is no way in my day, kids could have organised this themselves and set off without supervision.

Don't underestimate today's youth! Many buses were organized purely by students with no outside help to go to the ploughing. Funnily enough, it's never the academic students that want to go, normally the so called trouble makers, who think the ploughing is the best thing from september to Christmas. No teacher in their right mind would bring students there. It was banned on my school to bring trips to the ploughing. And the schools are aware but can't do anything about it..

TossL1916

i think a few things need to be cleared up here.
1. the school had absolutely nothing to do with this trip. they would not have been wearing a school uniform nor would the school have known anything about it.
2. these buses are organised by students themselves. generally one person has the responsibility of contacting the bus company, hiring the bus and collecting the money from those going on the bus.
3. hundreds of buses with drunk and drugged teens like the one in question descend on the ploughing every year. they leave from almost every town in the country, especially within the vicinity of where the ploughing match is taking place.

MadsL

TossL1916 wrote: »

i think a few things need to be cleared up here.
1. the school had absolutely nothing to do with this trip. they would not have been wearing a school uniform nor would the school have known anything about it.

How do schools explain the lack of pupils at school then? I find it hard to accept that this isn't an annual event that schools are fully aware of.

2. these buses are organised by students themselves. generally one person has the responsibility of contacting the bus company, hiring the bus and collecting the money from those going on the bus.

And parents allow this? Wtf? No supervision at all?

3. hundreds of buses with drunk and drugged teens like the one in question descend on the ploughing every year. they leave from almost every town in the country, especially within the vicinity of where the ploughing match is taking place.

In school time? And schools turn a blind eye.
Wow.

Miss Lockhart

MadsL, I'm genuinely interested in what you think schools should do in this situation.

Janedoe10

MadsL wrote: »

Maggie 2 wrote: »

It had nothing to do with a school. It was a privately hired bus.

They lost "out of school" privileges when they started causing criminal damage. I'm speechless that after four stops by Gardai they were not escorted by Gardai back to the school in order for the school to contact parents.

The bus driver surely cannot be expected to put up with this; and returning them to the school where they would normally be attending is the best solution for a mass transfer of "in loco parentis" responsibility. That or the local Garda Station.

That said I'm astonished that the bus company accepted "in loco parentis" responsibility in the first place.

This just shows the level of mayhem that's allowed now .
My secondary school would have certainly suspended the kids for damage of that nature .
Christ in our place ones got suspended for wearing the wrong coloured shoes with the uniform. It was seen as a lack of respect .We could not be belted cause it's not allowed but they got their point across.

They were doing this on school days and just because one mamma gave the go ahead does not make it right . Brats !!! Or is that politically incorrect .

Kids don't give a shi**, "some " parents don't give a sh**, and if these kids came from the same class . One would think the teachers would notice .

Boombastic

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

MadsL, I'm genuinely interested in what you think schools should do in this situation.

Well if it happens every year and is as widespread as some say they should contact the parents before the event and advise them that the school is not organising a trip to the ploughing match this year and all students will be expected to be in school on x, y, z dates

af_thefragile

spurious wrote: »

Black cats, black kittens.

Black cats/kittens are awesome!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX9mYcm52aU

Miss Lockhart

Boombastic wrote: »

Well if it happens every year and is as widespread as some say they should contact the parents before the event and advise them that the school is not organising a trip to the ploughing match this year and all students will be expected to be in school on x, y, z dates

And when the parents still allow their kids attend, then what should they do? Because this is the norm in many parts of the country.

TossL1916

MadsL wrote: »

How do schools explain the lack of pupils at school then? I find it hard to accept that this isn't an annual event that schools are fully aware of.


And parents allow this? Wtf? No supervision at all?



In school time? And schools turn a blind eye.
Wow.

I,ll take it that your not a culchie?
Anyway, schools do notice pupils being absent but the schools have no means of finding out whether the pupils are going with their responsible parents or with their friends on an unsupervised bus. Schools are well aware that its an annual event but they cant know for sure whether pupils are going with their parents or not. Its very common ( and very acceptable ) for a student to miss a day to go to the ploughing. Getting locked on an unsupervised bus was a celtic tiger invention and so the problem is only really being highlighted now.

Some parents probably dont know whats going on on these buses. others probably couldnt give a feck

Boombastic

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

And when the parents still allow their kids attend, then what should they do? Because this is the norm in many parts of the country.

Suspend the students

MadsL

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

MadsL, I'm genuinely interested in what you think schools should do in this situation.

If an entire class of kids is going to be out of school I think the principal should be asking some serious questions - it seems that it is common knowledge or practice for kids to go down to the Ploughing and get sh1tfaced.

Parents may be allowing this, but I would question why school principals are not aware and getting involved to ensure these trips are not booze cruises in school hours.

Can you think of a reason why school principals should permit these trips without supervision? School principals have the right to say no to planned absence or to announce that trips like these will not be granted absence unless they are supervised.

Bobsammy

Boombastic wrote: »

Suspend the students

But you can't suspend students for being absent from school with parental permission.

TossL1916

Boombastic wrote: »

Suspend the students

so even if a student goes to enjoy the machinery, livestock and other displays they should be suspended aswel? Not all teens go to get hammered and wreck buses.

Miss Lockhart

Boombastic wrote: »

Suspend the students

The students cannot be suspended for behaviour on a trip organised or sanctioned by their parents independently of the school. Suspending them for behaviour in school is difficult enough.

MadsL wrote: »

If an entire class of kids is going to be out of school I think the principal should be asking some serious questions - it seems that it is common knowledge or practice for kids to go down to the Ploughing and get sh1tfaced.

Parents may be allowing this, but I would question why school principals are not aware and getting involved to ensure these trips are not booze cruises in school hours.

Can you think of a reason why school principals should permit these trips without supervision? School principals have the right to say no to planned absence or to announce that trips like these will not be granted absence unless they are supervised.

But the fact is that principals do not permit these trips.

Principals cannot say no to planned absence by students if it is permitted by their parents, whether they will be supervised or not.

Parents have the right allow their child to miss school and attend such events. They can and should be held accountable for the antisocial and criminal behaviour of their children, but that is a separate issue.

Boombastic

Bobsammy wrote: »

But you can't suspend students for being absent from school with parental permission.

TossL1916 wrote: »

so even if a student goes to enjoy the machinery, livestock and other displays they should be suspended aswel? Not all teens go to get hammered and wreck buses.

Right, Listen closely



Some say this happens every year
The dates of the ploughing match is well publicised
School contacts parents before the ploughing match and advises them
a)the school is not running an official trip
b) Every year unsupervised students head down on an organised bus and get p1ssed/ cause havoc
c)If your little darling is going with their parents, please can the parents of the child call the school principal directly
d)Investigate unauthorised absences

hardCopy

MadsL wrote: »

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

It is not "mitching" if their parents give them permission.

Whether the school knew or not is irrelevant if the parents gave permission and it was not a school trip.

Parents have a legal obligation to inform the school if their child will be absent.

Responsibilities and duties of parents
Under the Education Welfare Act 2000 parents must inform the school if their children will be absent from school on a school day and the reason for the absence, for example, illness. It is best to do this in writing

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/attendance_and_discipline_in_schools/school_attendance.html

Of course the school sanctioned this.

Never in my life have I heard of parents giving advanced notice to the school of an absence. I left school in 2003 and my sister is still in school, it doesn't happen.

The school finds out they're absent when they take a roll call, they find out why when the kid comes back with a note.

MadsL

Bobsammy wrote: »

But you can't suspend students for being absent from school with parental permission.

I'm really struggling to see that that school was not aware of this trip. If this was common occurrence this would not be the first year.

School: We will not sanction trips of this nature unless accompanied.
Pupil: But my parents say i can go! Wah! Wah!
School:Tough, show up for school or get suspended.

Why are schools allowing this carry-on? Seems a common thing to have to deal with.

Ploughing Championships

The school is not running a bus to the Ploughing Championships. As always we ask parents to let us know if for any reason their child is going to be absent or has been absent from school.

http://www.glenamaddycs.ie/index.php/school-information/2012-07-19-20-48-05/september-2012

Miss Lockhart

Boombastic wrote: »

Right, Listen closely



Some say this happens every year
The dates of the ploughing match is well publicised
School contacts parents before the ploughing match and advises them
a)the school is not running an official trip
b) Every year unsupervised students head down on an organised bus and get p1ssed/ cause havoc
c)If your little darling is going with their parents, please can the parents of the child call the school principal directly
d)Investigate unauthorised absences

I am listening very closely. That is a good plan, but it will do nothing to stop those attending unsuperivsed with the knowledge and consent of their parents. The school has no power to intervene or reprimand those students for their behaviour.

hardCopy wrote: »

Never in my life have I heard of parents giving advanced notice to the school of an absence. I left school in 2003 and my sister is still in school, it doesn't happen.

The school finds out they're absent when they take a roll call, they find out why when the kid comes back with a note.

The NEWB (who deal with school attendance) advises:

"You must tell the school that your child cannot attend and say why. It is best to do this in writing, so give the school a note to explain why your child was out."

http://www.newb.ie/parent_guardian/faq.asp

Providing a note to explain an absence that has already occurred is acceptable. However, if a child is missing for several days a school will often contact home to find out what the story is.

Boombastic

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I am listening very closely. That is a good plan, but it will do nothing to stop those attending unsuperivsed with the knowledge and consent of their parents. The school has no power to intervene or reprimand those students for their behaviour.

How many parents would let their children go on such a trip after warnings, not enough to fill a bus is my guess. What do you think?

MadsL

There is a difference between planned and unplanned absence. Fair enough, send a note for Johnny in bed with a cold. Perfectly well Johnny hopping on a bus to the Ploughing should be notified ahead of time - I would have thought Principals should have the right to suspend anyone not informing the school of a planned absence?

Strikes me teenagers are taking nice advantage of schools putting the responsibility on parents and parents looking the other way as "It's all organised Dad"

Schools should be saying loud "We will not tolerate illegal activity, and that includes underage drinking"

A fatality could have resulted from this incident.

Miss Lockhart

Boombastic wrote: »

How many parents would let their children go on such a trip after warnings, not enough to fill a bus is my guess. What do you think?

I know from experience that a bus full of children would most certainly be allowed go, despite such "warnings". (what is the warning? the school cannot intervene if the parents allow it).

Run_to_da_hills

If this happened on a Bus Eireann double decker the culprits would have been caught on CCTV. Each bus has four HD cams on the lower deck and three on the upper.

It would be difficult for the company to prove anything without CCTV images and DNA from pi*s samples.

Janedoe10

Bobsammy wrote: »

Boombastic wrote: »

Suspend the students

But you can't suspend students for being absent from school with parental permission.

I thought at the very least the parents should be responsible and there to answer why will little tommy and little larry and all x of their comrades will be missing on day x , and if there isn't prior arrangement that calls are made when teacher Betty x turns up at school room 12 and there is no one there .

Does she say Yaaah - parrrrty I have a free hour . Ok I'm exaggerating here but u get what I mean .

It does not wash that the school can say that they have no sense of responsibility .
As the report says the little darlings were brought back to school for their parents to be contacted .
There should NOT be a situation that the kids and their parents think that they can take off school when they like .

My attitude is if kids are contracted to be at school for the number if months - then they are under the schools juristiction .

Oh ya more I think of it me school also had a curfew . It was the schools way to control anti social behaviour - they were big asks and BOTH parents and teachers signed up for it .

@ what the little mites are up to ,

Miss Lockhart

MadsL wrote: »

I would have thought Principals should have the right to suspend anyone not informing the school of a planned absence?

They do not have that right if the planned absence is permitted by the parent.

Boombastic

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I know from experience that a bus full of children would most certainly be allowed go, despite such "warnings". (what is the warning? the school cannot intervene if the parents allow it).

The warning is

If little johnny tells you he is going on a school trip, he is not., There is no such trip sanctioned by the school. There will be no adult supervision and in previous years the children all had a big p1ss up. All absences for the ploughing match must be arranged in advance between the parents and the principal.

Boombastic

TossL1916 wrote: »

I,ll take it that your not a culchie?
Anyway, schools do notice pupils being absent but the schools have no means of finding out whether the pupils are going with their responsible parents or with their friends on an unsupervised bus. Schools are well aware that its an annual event but they cant know for sure whether pupils are going with their parents or not. Its very common ( and very acceptable ) for a student to miss a day to go to the ploughing. Getting locked on an unsupervised bus was a celtic tiger invention and so the problem is only really being highlighted now.

Some parents probably dont know whats going on on these buses. others probably couldnt give a feck

Have they never heard of a telephone?

Miss Lockhart

Boombastic wrote: »

The warning is

If little johnny tells you he is going on a school trip, he is not., There is no such trip sanctioned by the school. There will be no adult supervision and in previous years the children all had a big p1ss up. All absences for the ploughing match must be arranged in advance between the parents and the principal.

And when little johnny is absent without prior arrangement and the principal phones home to be told that, actually, little johnny is at the ploughing - what is the principal to do?

The fact is he can do nothing other than record the absence.

Edited to add: some people seem to think parents would not allow their children go unsupervised to the ploughing - many parents do.

MadsL

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

They do not have that right if the planned absence is permitted by the parent.

Can I take my child on holidays during term time?
Taking a holiday during term time means that children miss important school time - both educationally and for other school activities. It will be difficult for them to catch up on work later on. As a result they may fall behind with school work and lose confidence in their abilities. The NEWB believes that every day counts in a child's education and strongly advises parents against taking their children out of school for holidays during term time for this reason.

No need for legislation in this regard, Principals can write this into the Code of Behaviour under Section 23 of the 2000 Act.

Code of behaviour.

23.—(1) The board of management of a recognised school shall, after consultation with the principal of, the teachers teaching at, the parents of students registered at, and the educational welfare officer assigned functions in relation to, that school, prepare, in accordance with subsection (2), a code of behaviour in respect of the students registered at the school (hereafter in this section referred to as a “code of behaviour”).

(2) A code of behaviour shall specify—

(a) the standards of behaviour that shall be observed by each student attending the school;

(b) the measures that may be taken when a student fails or refuses to observe those standards;

(c) the procedures to be followed before a student may be suspended or expelled from the school concerned;

(d) the grounds for removing a suspension imposed in relation to a student; and

(e) the procedures to be followed relating to notification of a child's absence from school.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0022/print.html#sec18

Failure to notify planned absence could suspend a pupil at the Principal's discretion.

Boombastic

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

And when little johnny is absent without prior arrangement and the principal phones home to be told that, actually, little johnny is at the ploughing - what is the principal to do?

The fact is he can do nothing other than record the absence.

Edited to add: some people seem to think parents would not allow their children go unsupervised to the ploughing - many parents do.

That's why the parents should have to arrange in advance with the principal, if not suspension. They were warned beforehand.

A few parents might, but not all culchie parents:)


I'm beginning to think that some teachers wouldn't notice if their hair was on fire, never mind a heap of students MIA:pac: