Republic of Ireland v Germany - 12/10/2012 - 19:45 - RTE2/SS2

ArmaniJeanss

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

We play Greece next month in a friendly and Poland in February. How many do you think will attend those crackers? Especially given the current sentiment?

Sweden is next March, and that's an away fixture. Lose that and it's curtains. How many will attend the remaining home matches following that?

Trap's future is about economics now, more than anything. And everything points at his departure.

Any chance of doing the math as I'm a bit of a thicko.

How many extra paying punters would having say Don Givens as caretaker manager for the two friendlies put on the gate, compared to continuing with Trap. Would this difference cover the cost of paying Trap off?

If we win tomorrow our next competitive homegame is against Austria in March (3 days after the Sweden game so the Sweden result won't matter for pre-sales). How much would a new manager increase attendance by. Remember that some tickets are already sold anyway, via season ticket and block booking.

kincsem

19:00
RTÉ Sport on Two: Live International Football
RTÉ Two - 6:30 p.m. - Republic of Ireland Only
Faroe Islands v Republic of Ireland (Kick-off 7.00pm). Bill O'Herlihy presents all the action from the World Cup Group C qualifier, held at the Torsvollur in Torshavn

Felexicon

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

'Too late'? Too late for what?

We're not supposed to qualify for this tournament and are extremely likely to qualify for the next.

Trapp is year for one year or 20 months and then someone comes in with the easiest qualification task in history.

Go back to my post you quoted. Scroll down. Get answer already given.

Banjaxed82

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

simple question
do you think FAI have the money to buy him out of contract, YES OR NO

Yes.

Do I think they want to buy him out? No.

In the long run, do I think it's far worse economically not to buy him out? Definitely.

The FAI are hedging their bets, and they think this is going to go tits up sooner rather than later, so it makes economic sense for the FAI and their board's wallets to gamble on getting rid of him now.

Don't forget who's making the decision here: John Delaney. A man who's been in the FAI donkey's years now, and has no intention of anything getting in the way of his fat pay cheque. If sacking Trap deflects the heat from him, he'll do it in a heart beat.

kippy

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Yes.

Do I think they want to buy him out? No.

In the long run, do I think it's far worse economically not to buy him out? Definitely.

The FAI are hedging their bets, and they think this is going to go tits up sooner rather than later, so it makes economic sense for the FAI and their board's wallets to gamble on getting rid of him now.

Don't forget who's making the decision here: John Delaney. A man who's been in the FAI donkey's years now, and has no intention of anything getting in the way of his fat pay cheque. If sacking Trap deflects the heat from him, he'll do it in a heart beat.

Isn't DoB still involved in paying Traps wages? I doubt John Delaney has carte blance on Traps contract if that is the case and anyway, sacking Trap now would be crazy.

LuckyLloyd

Felexicon wrote: »

Go back to my post you quoted. Scroll down. Get answer already given.

Felexicon wrote: »

Before it's too late and a number of young Irish players feel so alienated by their first taste of the international experience that they turn their backs on it for good

"answer"

So if some players have to see out this qualification process with Trapp at the helm they are unlikely to make themselves available under a new manager for the 2016 Euros? Nah, not buying that.

kincsem

Go on Lloyd, you open the Faroe Islands v Republic Of Ireland thread.

Father Damo

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

simple question
do you think FAI have the money to buy him out of contract, YES OR NO

How much is this buy out clause? Another 2 million? That is pennys to Dennis O Brien. While I am greatful for his investment, he is a businessman, I am sure it would not be the first time he did not get the return he hoped for, that is business.

KELTICKNIGHTT

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Yes.

Do I think they want to buy him out? No.

In the long run, do I think it's far worse economically not to buy him out? Definitely.

The FAI are hedging their bets, and they think this is going to go tits up sooner rather than later, so it makes economic sense for the FAI and their board's wallets to gamble on getting rid of him now.

Don't forget who's making the decision here: John Delaney. A man who's been in the FAI donkey's years now, and has no intention of anything getting in the way of his fat pay cheque. If sacking Trap deflects the heat from him, he'll do it in a heart beat.

i dont see them paying trap off and i dont see next manager doing much till we have better squad , and thats not because of trap ,
ireland never does have a full class squad ,
players have to accept what they do and didnt do and not hide behind the manager as they always do , and a leader on the field would help alot too
keane and o shea are not leaders , has there been a good leader since roy keane , i dont think so

i have a diehard irish fan whos my brother whi goes to almost all the irish matchs and , he's not only not happy with trap but also with the so called players who are paid pro's , at least some of them ,
he doesnt see much changing even if traps was gone till we have better quailty there
his kid could play better in last 30 mins of game than the so called pro's and his kid only 6 years old lol

KELTICKNIGHTT

Father Damo wrote: »

How much is this buy out clause? Another 2 million? That is pennys to Dennis O Brien. While I am greatful for his investment, he is a businessman, I am sure it would not be the first time he did not get the return he hoped for, that is business.

i say more than 2 million and is d o brien still funding it
unless trap looses all the rest of his games, i dont see anything happening

Laois_Man

Trapp's contract expires when our involvement in WC 2014 ends - not when the actual world cup ends. So if we don't qualify, it's got about 13 months to run,.

No?

ArmaniJeanss

Father Damo wrote: »

How much is this buy out clause? Another 2 million? That is pennys to Dennis O Brien. While I am greatful for his investment, he is a businessman, I am sure it would not be the first time he did not get the return he hoped for, that is business.

I think it's incredibly cheeky, and borderline spoilt child behaviour, for people to expect DOB to pony up €2M or whatever the amount is just because the masses aren't happy with the way things are going. Maybe DOB will be happy with 6 points from 9, and four games to come against the two teams in the group who will be our rival for second place. His money, his choice.

I also suspect he didn't get to make his money by casually referring to a couple of million as pennies.

Banjaxed82

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

i say more than 2 million and is d o brien still funding it
unless trap looses all the rest of his games, i dont see anything happening

What are you on about?

A draw tomorrow and he's gone. A loss against Sweden, he's gone.

As mentioned, I still think he's gone by the weekend, regardless of tomorrow's result.

KELTICKNIGHTT

i know people who changed from following Irish soccer International team to Irish rugby team more
thats even before trap came along ,
that tells its own story
remember Steve Staunton lol

ColeTrain

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I think it's incredibly cheeky, and borderline spoilt child behaviour, for people to expect DOB to pony up €2M or whatever the amount is just because the masses aren't happy with the way things are going. Maybe DOB will be happy with 6 points from 9, and four games to come against the two teams in the group who will be our rival for second place. His money, his choice.

I also suspect he didn't get to make his money by casually referring to a couple of million as pennies.

It's a bit of a farce when someone like O'Brien is calling the shots

KELTICKNIGHTT

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

What are you on about?

A draw tomorrow and he's gone. A loss against Sweden, he's gone.

As mentioned, I still think he's gone by the weekend, regardless of tomorrow's result.

wake up
he won't be
FAI wont and neither will o brien buy him out

if your so sure, go to paddy power and bet your money on it :-), good luck winning

Felexicon

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

"answer"

So if some players have to see out this qualification process with Trapp at the helm they are unlikely to make themselves available under a new manager for the 2016 Euros? Nah, not buying that.

Not what I mean at all. He's already caused players to make themselves unavailable for selection e.g Gibson and Foley. It now looks as though Kelly could follow suit and there are a number of younger players who you couldn't blame for doing the same considering his very public criticism of them for non footballing matters.
Also, as our player pool is so small we look to get players who qualify for Ireland to choose us over Northern Ireland or Scotland. Do you think any player looking in at the moment would want to play under Trap.

Father Damo

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I think it's incredibly cheeky, and borderline spoilt child behaviour, for people to expect DOB to pony up €2M or whatever the amount is just because the masses aren't happy with the way things are going. Maybe DOB will be happy with 6 points from 9, and four games to come against the two teams in the group who will be our rival for second place. His money, his choice.

I also suspect he didn't get to make his money by casually referring to a couple of million as pennies.

Business is business. He was given a proposal (or offered it himself)- invest x amount of money in getting a manager who will get us challenging at a reasonable level internationally. The investment fell apart from last summer onwards. When an investment goes tits up, if a businessman has the funds he will usually try and prop it up.

With all due respect O Brien is worth 3 billion. I dont think investing 1/1000th of his finances in sorting this mess out would kill him. I would be more than eager if I had that money tbh.

djpbarry

SuperInfinity wrote: »

We're definitely still in with a shout against Sweden for second place...

Do you honestly think this Irish side can go to Sweden and get a result? Have you been watching Ireland's recent performances?

Idbatterim wrote: »

...assuming we win tomorrow...

That's a pretty bold assumption.

Idbatterim wrote: »

...were less than 50/50 to finish second...

On what basis?

applehunter

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Sure I do! But the witch hunt and vitriol on this forum stretching back to October 2010 is utterly ridiculous. Trapp has been painted as a cartoonish villain holding back the great future players of Ireland from playing wonderful football and competing in the knockout phases of major championships.

There are valid criticisms, but they are lost in a sea of hyperbole on here.

Give us a few because you seem to have taken the elitist view in this debate and scoff at the prevailing opinion that Ireland under Trapattoni is not working.

Pretend you are Henry Fonda in 12 Angry Men.

Idbatterim

On what basis?

well im trying to quantify our chances, the same way a bookie does. how would you rate our chances?

ColeTrain

applehunter wrote: »

Give us a few because you seem to have taken the elitist view in this debate and scoff at the prevailing opinion that Ireland under Trapattoni is not working.

Pretend you are Henry Fonda in 12 Angry Men.

We have no gameplan

** Slams knife into the table

simongurnick

Pro. F wrote: »

1 Yes you did. You said McCarthy and Coleman were two of the worst players. That is criticising them more than the other players, obviously.

It is criticising them more harshly than the other players, not criticising them more.

2 It's not that difficult when the other options are so inferior.

We qualified.

3 He has constantly appeared in friendlies under Trap, including the most recent ones.

Coleman has been part of the last 5 squads. McShane played in the home nation series and against Italy and Serbia, Coleman also featured in those games.

4 You used it as evidence against him and held it up as proof that the people calling for him to be brought in earlier were wrong. That is holding it against him. But now you say you wouldn't hold it against him? Fúck me you would say anything.

I wouldn't hold it against him for future appearances given how poor the whole team were, and yes it adds to the point that having him in the squad earlier would not make the slightest difference against the top teams.

5 No, I dismissed the fact that he has played in a few friendlies as evidence that Trap has given him as many appearances as he should have.

Consider all games, friendlies and competitive, and consider who has played in Coleman's place. Trap has been overlooking Coleman far more than he should have.

Even out of form he has always been a better winger than Cox and Keogh.

Even out of form? come on man! Yes, he is a better winger than Cox and Keogh, but Duff mainly played down the right and cover for him in the last qualifiers was Lawrence and I think Fahey and Hunt once each. So it was more those players that kept Coleman out. Bear in mind Lawrence played at the start of the campaign. The previous season Coleman finished out the year on loan with Blackpool.

6 Yes, any time that Cox played on the wing Coleman should have been playing instead of him. Coleman is a better winger than Cox.

Did Cox ever play right wing?

miralize

Apologies if posted already



We got more goals with Mick, but higher losses. Draws are Trapp's forté...

Pro. F

simongurnick wrote: »

It is criticising them more harshly than the other players, not criticising them more.

lol. That is pathetic.

We qualified.

That doesn't mean other players could not be brought in more effectively. When we got to the tournament Cox was used on the wing at times, that should have been Coleman.

Coleman has been part of the last 5 squads. McShane played in the home nation series and against Italy and Serbia, Coleman also featured in those games.

I don't think Coleman has ever played at fullback under Trap before Friday night. In the nations cup McShane got two starts, Coleman got one. In the Serbia game McShane got a full game and Coleman only got 10 minutes.

I wouldn't hold it against him for future appearances given how poor the whole team were, and yes it adds to the point that having him in the squad earlier would not make the slightest difference against the top teams.

You said you wouldn't hold it against him, but you did.

Even out of form? come on man! Yes, he is a better winger than Cox and Keogh, but Duff mainly played down the right and cover for him in the last qualifiers was Lawrence and I think Fahey and Hunt once each. So it was more those players that kept Coleman out. Bear in mind Lawrence played at the start of the campaign. The previous season Coleman finished out the year on loan with Blackpool.

Duff is more than capable of playing on the left. I don't know why you are going so far back, Coleman has been way down the pecking order until he was thrown in at fullback against Germany.

Did Cox ever play right wing?

Would McGeady or Duff moving over to the left be so difficult or unusual to accommodate?

.

SuperInfinity

While I commend the effort, those stats aren't great because they could be against anyone. The most obvious flaw is the lack of major competitions for some, had Stan or Kerr gotten through to the euros/world cup their records would be vastly worse. Also, back in Jack's day and maybe even Mick's to an extent there were a lot fewer minnow/bad countries. Stan's famous 2-1 win over San Marino counts for as much as Jack's over Italy. Luck of the draw is also significant, since some of the managers only had one or two competitions and sometimes groups have an extra (or less) minnow team.

They seem to be counting friendlies also, which is patently ridiculous. First of all they mean nothing, and secondly the teams selected are based on the manager's (or potentially association's) preferences at the time.

Another thing is that the only a far more valid and legitimate way to compare wins/draws would be to count exactly what they mean for the team at the time. Okay, back in Italia '90 and before there were 2 points for a win so draws were worth more, there are also playoffs..... this is complicated because either the 3 point period team or 2 point period team could be getting too much. I guess we should divide the amount of points the 3 point period teams were getting by a certain number so they don't have way more points, however keep a win meaning three times as much for them. We could simply divide the 3-point system teams' points by 4 (since for a win-draw-loss that's what they would get), and divide the 2-point system teams' points by 3. However, that would be assuming a 1:1:1 win-draw-loss on average, so if the teams were winning significantly more than they were drawing/losing, the 3-point system teams would again be ahead.

Overall, much better statistics would only take major competitions but exclude the MAJOR major competitions (I know, that seems a shame but what can we do), eliminate the results against the last two teams of every group, and have some way to calculate average unofficial "points" per game that would be reasonably fair.

LuckyLloyd

applehunter wrote: »

Give us a few because you seem to have taken the elitist view in this debate and scoff at the prevailing opinion that Ireland under Trapattoni is not working.

Pretend you are Henry Fonda in 12 Angry Men.

It is valid to criticise the lack of training ground prep and match time devoted to developing 4 - 5 - 1 with our squad. That said, such a criticism could have been labelled against every regime other than Kerr. Still, more should have been done.

On Friday it was obvious after 25 minutes that Germany were deliberately tucking their wide players in overloading our central midfield and allowing for the release of their fullbacks. In Moscow we probably needed to get more bodies through the center after 30 minutes. Like everyone, I'd love if we had a Hiddink / Mourinho / Benitez type capable of making the correct in game tactical adjustments. Again though, Kerr is the best we've ever had in that regard and the potential replacements will get those scenarios wrong in the future.

Ward is a problem. It isn't his fault. Even when he's getting destroyed he is clearly trying awfully hard, getting blocks in, etc. It isn't surprising that he doesn't have the tactical nous for the job given his background, and he should have been jettisoned before the Euros. Thing is, that error gets turned into 'every selection is crazy'. I've never been 100% happy with every selection of any team I've supported.

It would have been no harm if the likes of Mark O' Brien and Owen Garvan had a couple of squads over the past few years and our effective playing pool was wider. This gets turned into 'Trapp never tries people and picks the same squad every game' though. Meyler, Treacey and Brady show otherwise.

Paul Green. However Trapp gets no credit for bringing Cox and St. Ledger into the fold as two players no-one would have tried but have worked out well.

Being more positive against weaker opposition. When playing Andorra / Kazakstan I'd have no problem if the lads were told 'don't do the big one' before the game. That said, this is not a new thing for Irish sides. Iceland at home with Keane as sweeper anyone? This is not a group naturally predisposed to cutting loose. We have a distinct paucity of players plying their trade for refined outfits at club level.


Ultimately there are negatives that get way overblown. Things ARE working because our results have been acceptable. That's the bottom line.

djpbarry

Idbatterim wrote: »

well im trying to quantify our chances, the same way a bookie does. how would you rate our chances?

Well I'm asking you how you put our chances of finishing second at 50/50? That seems incredibly optimistic seeing as Austria and Sweden will (not unreasonably) fancy their chances against us both home and away.

SuperInfinity wrote: »

While I commend the effort, those stats aren't great because they could be against anyone. The most obvious flaw is the lack of major competitions for some, had Stan or Kerr gotten through to the euros/world cup their records would be vastly worse.

I wouldn't agree with that at all in the case of Kerr. Brian Kerr's Ireland were really hard to beat.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Ultimately there are negatives that get way overblown. Things ARE working because our results have been acceptable. That's the bottom line.

Ireland have suffered two of the heaviest defeats in their history in their last few games?

LuckyLloyd

djpbarry wrote: »

Ireland have suffered two of the heaviest defeats in their history in their last few games?

Playoffs, qualification results that matter from the last two campaigns.

Generally, under Trapp we've consistently beaten teams worse than us and drawn / narrowly lost to superior opposition.

We're on a poor run of five competitive games where four of our opponents were ranked in the top 10 in the world. It's less than a tenth of his total reign though. I know you know this too.

kfallon

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

With fans like you who needs opposing nations? Our fan base has always been dreadful. McCarthy, Kerr and 10 years with no finals but they never learn.

And what did you want me to do, stay til the end and afterwards say, "Ah sure I was only there for the craic anyway!"

The manager is a joke at this stage but I know you are one of his biggest apologists. €1.5m a year and he won't go to watch any of the players in action. His communication skills are every bit as bad as when he first came over, takes absolutely no interest in our domestic league and spends as little time as possible in the country. It's clear from his negative tactics that he doesn't rate or trust the players and it was only gonna be a matter of time before this permeated down thru the squad. We are now seeing the results of it.

And before you say "He got us to a Euros".....he got one of the easiest qualifying groups and the worst team to ever appear in a play off. And we struggled to finish second. I remember after the Armenia game and Shay Given was interviewed on the pitch, as I made my way out of the stadium he was practically begging fans to return for the play off, he knew how bad it was. And Russia, who totally outplayed us home and away, didn't even get past the group stages themselves in the Euros. In the WC Qualifiers we couldn't get past Italy and France and they turned out to be two of the worst teams in South Africa.

If people keep going to the games the FAI will see this as support from them. Sometimes you have to vote with your feet and I won't be back to The Aviva until Trapp is gone. You mention McCarthy and Kerr, I'd take them back in a heartbeat (esp McCarthy), they might instill a bit of passion in the team and they might even trust the players to play a little bit of football. At the moment we are set up like a bad U-12 team, kick it as far and as high as possible and hope something breaks for us.

Still, it's money for old rope for Gio, he must think it's Xmas!

LuckyLloyd

Kerr and McCarthy should not have been sacked when they were, but the football public were salivating at the mouth in both cases. This is the thing, Trapp's reign is shockingly similar to their reigns in terms of treatment from the media and fans. Kerr "had to go" just like McCarthy "had to go" just like Trapp "has to go".

Been here before, didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now.

SantryRed

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

We're on a poor run of five competitive games where four of our opponents were ranked in the top 10 in the world. It's less than a tenth of his total reign though. I know you know this too.

But Lloyd,

We didn't even look like having a chance in those 4 games. It is ridiculous. We were bent over and violated so badly in all 4 games. Not a hope. His tactics were lucky against other opposition but we had no hope in these games because their players are just too good for luck to bail us out.

kippy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Kerr and McCarthy should not have been sacked when they were, but the football public were salivating at the mouth in both cases. This is the thing, Trapp's reign is shockingly similar to their reigns in terms of treatment from the media and fans. Kerr "had to go" just like McCarthy "had to go" just like Trapp "has to go".

Been here before, didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now.

100% true and an indictment of some of the delusional thoughts going through some of the "fans" and indeed pundits minds.......

kfallon

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Kerr and McCarthy should not have been sacked when they were, but the football public were salivating at the mouth in both cases. This is the thing, Trapp's reign is shockingly similar to their reigns in terms of treatment from the media and fans. Kerr "had to go" just like McCarthy "had to go" just like Trapp "has to go".

Been here before, didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now.

I agree both were treated poorly in the end, the McCarthy one was especially hard to take. We'd had a decent World Cup and within 2 or 3 games people were wanting him sacked. Obviously the whole Saipan thing didn't help his cause as some people were ready to jump down his throat at the first opportunity.

Whatever about the fans, Trapp looks like he has lost the dressing room and when that happens you may pack your bags!

LuckyLloyd

kfallon wrote: »

I agree both were treated poorly in the end, the McCarthy one was especially hard to take. We'd had a decent World Cup and within 2 or 3 games people were wanting him sacked. Obviously the whole Saipan thing didn't help his cause as some people were ready to jump down his throat at the first opportunity.

Whatever about the fans, Trapp looks like he has lost the dressing room and when that happens you may pack your bags!

They said McCarthy and Kerr had lost the dressing room too! They said Benitez had lost the dressing room. That always gets said when the pressure comes on any manager.

Any manager will have players who buy in the whole way and those who don't. And there will always be players sulking in the corner simply because they aren't being picked.

miralize

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

They said McCarthy and Kerr had lost the dressing room too! They said Benitez had lost the dressing room. That always gets said when the pressure comes on any manager.

Any manager will have players who buy in the whole way and those who don't. And there will always be players sulking in the corner simply because they aren't being picked.

And are any of them currently employed?

Aenaes

What's with the double standards being thrown about?

Trap is a "stubborn/senile/old fool", he won't pick new players or change formation.
He changes formation against Germany and picks new players BUT that's because of fans/media pressure? Yeah right..

Trap "holds the team back and doesn't let the team play."
Ireland vs France in Paris "played the opposite of Trap's method."
What was stopping them doing that against Kazakhstan/Germany then?

The suggestions of other managers in the other thread instead of Trap make me feel ill.

Coillte_Bhoy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Kerr and McCarthy should not have been sacked when they were, but the football public were salivating at the mouth in both cases. This is the thing, Trapp's reign is shockingly similar to their reigns in terms of treatment from the media and fans. Kerr "had to go" just like McCarthy "had to go" just like Trapp "has to go".

Been here before, didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now.

There was not the same groundswell against Kerr or MacCarthy iirc. Mick had come to the end anyway and the saipan thing was still fresh in everyone's minds. As for Kerr there was not the same resentment towards him as there is now towards Trap. Results started to go against Mick and Brian, there was not the same complete disillusionment with the whole regime as there is now. Completely different situations.

Predalien

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

There was not the same groundswell against Kerr or MacCarthy iirc. Mick had come to the end anyway and the saipan thing was still fresh in everyone's minds. As for Kerr there was not the same resentment towards him as there is now towards Trap. Results started to go against Mick and Brian, there was not the same complete disillusionment with the whole regime as there is now. Completely different situations.

Absolutely, Mick's situation was impossible once Saipan was combined with losing the first two games of the next campaign. As for Kerr, the media did a lot of damage and he didn't respond well to the pressure, he was unlucky in a way.

LuckyLloyd

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

There was not the same groundswell against Kerr or MacCarthy iirc. Mick had come to the end anyway and the saipan thing was still fresh in everyone's minds. As for Kerr there was not the same resentment towards him as there is now towards Trap. Results started to go against Mick and Brian, there was not the same complete disillusionment with the whole regime as there is now. Completely different situations.

Eh, no, there absolutely was. "Mick had come to the end anyway"...wtf does that mean?

Kerr's results were quite consistent but people were furious over the Israel games which they blamed on him for 'sitting back' once we'd scored; they were boiling mad about the final game against the Swiss. The media and the public were where they are now - ready to criticise EVERY little error and dance all over the manager's footballing grave.

I remember autumn 2002 and 2006, and I bet you many of the people saying 'I'd have Kerr / McCarthy back in a heartbeat' were roaring for their dismissal in both cases.

miralize wrote:

And are any of them currently employed?

McCarthy has enjoyed solid spells at Sunderland and Wolves. He's clearly a good manager.

Kerr left the Faroes of his own accord after making them as tough as they've ever been.

Both were managing this time last year. There is nothing to be ashamed of in what they've done since the Ireland job imo.

LuckyLloyd

Aenaes wrote: »

The suggestions of other managers in the other thread instead of Trap make me feel ill.

This is the thing, if Trapp is forced out it will cost a bunch upfront and O'Brien isn't going to pony up. We'll be left with a bust out from the English leagues who is willing to work for <€400k a year.

Downlinz

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Kerr and McCarthy should not have been sacked when they were, but the football public were salivating at the mouth in both cases. This is the thing, Trapp's reign is shockingly similar to their reigns in terms of treatment from the media and fans. Kerr "had to go" just like McCarthy "had to go" just like Trapp "has to go".

Been here before, didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now.

Yep, there's no succession plan from those calling for it. Next managers reign will be stan all over again.

Coillte_Bhoy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Eh, no, there absolutely was. "Mick had come to the end anyway"...wtf does that mean?

Well, we can agree to disagree then but it's certainly not the way i remember things. People were disappointed with performance/results as we are now but there is so much more nonsense thats gone on under Trap, his poor communication, not going to matches, slagging off players, falling out with and ignoring certain players etc etc etc. As fro Mick being at the end, after Saipan, he was always gone after the first setback. He did the honourable thing too imo not asking for his contract to be paid up.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Kerr's results were quite consistent but people were furious over the Israel games which they blamed on him for 'sitting back' once we'd scored; they were boiling mad about the final game against the Swiss. The media and the public were where they are now - ready to criticise EVERY little error and dance all over the manager's footballing grave.

I remember autumn 2002 and 2006, and I bet you many of the people saying 'I'd have Kerr / McCarthy back in a heartbeat' were roaring for their dismissal in both cases.

Absolute bollocks, i got into almighty row at the Swiss game in his defence. Please dont start making stupid wild generalisations

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

McCarthy has enjoyed solid spells at Sunderland and Wolves. He's clearly a good manager.

Kerr left the Faroes of his own accord after making them as tough as they've ever been.

Both were managing this time last year. There is nothing to be ashamed of in what they've done since the Ireland job imo.

Why would there be?

briany

Downlinz wrote: »

Yep, there's no succession plan from those calling for it. Next managers reign will be stan all over again.

There's plenty of names being called for but none of them are written in stone. Trap's plan is going nowhere fast but if the FAI sack him, wait 4 months and then grab who's available around Jan or Feb, we could well only end up with a 'second best' replacement and someone who's hamstrung by the time constraints being foisted upon him. If the FAI are going to act, they must go the whole way and have someone credible, with a genuine interest in taking the team forward, in the job before Christmas at the latest.

The nightmare scenario is selecting another 'Stan' and the team crashes out of the WC. Apologists and FAI accountants will defend his job saying he'd had a tough time to clean up Trap's mess. Then he turns out to just be pretty inept, actually, and we lose out on a handier ECQ process, everyone calls for his head, he goes and the team finds itself in 2015 having moved the sum total of nowhere.

GetInTheHole!

Enough of this s***e..

Get Joe Kinnear in...

jmayo

SuperInfinity wrote: »

While I commend the effort, those stats aren't great because they could be against anyone. The most obvious flaw is the lack of major competitions for some, had Stan or Kerr gotten through to the euros/world cup their records would be vastly worse. Also, back in Jack's day and maybe even Mick's to an extent there were a lot fewer minnow/bad countries.

Ehh for the last few years of Jack's reign all of the current minmows were around (Soviet union collapsed in 89) and in fact I would bet that in those days the smaller countries shipped a lot more goals than they do today.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Playoffs, qualification results that matter from the last two campaigns.

Generally, under Trapp we've consistently beaten teams worse than us and drawn / narrowly lost to superior opposition.

We're on a poor run of five competitive games where four of our opponents were ranked in the top 10 in the world. It's less than a tenth of his total reign though. I know you know this too.

Ehh with all this talk about how great the teams we have been beaten by over the last few games, I decided to take a look at how we stack up in comparison to others who have played the same opposition.
AFAIK these stats are correct.

Germany have only managed to put 5 or more goals past these teams in the last few years.

2008 Liechtenstein 0 - 6 Germany
2008 Germany 4 - 0 Liechtenstein
2009 United Arab Emirates 2 - 7 Germany
2009 Germany 4 - 0 Azerbaijan
2010 Germany 4 - 0 Australia
2010 Germany (WC) 4 - 1 England
2010 Germany (WC) 4 - 0 Argentina
2010 Germany 6 - 1 Azerbaijan
2011 Germany 4 - 0 Kazakhstan
2011 Germany 6 - 2 Austria
2012 Germany (EC) 4 - 2 Greece
2012 Rep of Ireland 1 - 6 Rep of Ireland

So in last few years the only time Germany has put six past an opponent and not at home was when playing the powerhouses of UAE and Liechtenstein.

Way hay aren't we in classy company. :rolleyes:

And if we looked at Spain the only time big team that Spain hammered as much or more than us was the Italian team in the Euros.
And a lot of folks reckon that Italy had totally run out of steam at the end.

The other teams that they got more than 4 goals against were Korea, Venezuela, Liechtenstein, Belgium, Austria, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Poland, Azerbaijan, Armenia, USA, New Zealand and again most of these were at home.

We can gloss over the defeats all we like by claiming these teams are in the top ten, but on very few occassions has a team so full of players playing in a major league (PL and indeed the championship) been so comprehensively beaten by these big teams and especially on their home turf.

I haven't the time to go through the Italy or Croatia.

LuckyLloyd

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

i got into almighty row at the Swiss game in his defence. Please dont start making stupid wild generalisations

If defending Kerr AT a crucial Ireland match entailed an 'almighty row' surely that speaks of the general knives out atmosphere prevailing at that time?

noodler

jmayo wrote: »

Ehh with all this talk about how great the teams we have been beaten by over the last few games, I decided to take a look at how we stack up in comparison to others who have played the same opposition.
AFAIK these stats are correct.

Germany have only managed to put 5 or more goals past these teams in the last few years.

2008 Liechtenstein 0 - 6 Germany
2008 Germany 4 - 0 Liechtenstein
2009 United Arab Emirates 2 - 7 Germany
2009 Germany 4 - 0 Azerbaijan
2010 Germany 4 - 0 Australia
2010 Germany (WC) 4 - 1 England
2010 Germany (WC) 4 - 0 Argentina
2010 Germany 6 - 1 Azerbaijan
2011 Germany 4 - 0 Kazakhstan
2011 Germany 6 - 2 Austria
2012 Germany (EC) 4 - 2 Greece
2012 Rep of Ireland 1 - 6 Rep of Ireland

So in last few years the only time Germany has put six past an opponent and not at home was when playing the powerhouses of UAE and Liechtenstein.

Way hay aren't we in classy company. :rolleyes:

.

Poor argument.

We all know it was 40 years since anyone put 6 goals past us in a competitive game.

Coillte_Bhoy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If defending Kerr AT a crucial Ireland match entailed an 'almighty row' surely that speaks of the general knives out atmosphere prevailing at that time?

Ya but it was a small minority, otherwise i wouldnt have got involved.:o

Anyway that being my point, i think that today the overwhelming majority of fans want trap gone while that wasnt the case with brian or mick, just my experience of course.

Seriously though, leaving results aside, do you not have any issues with his not going to matches, keeping in contact with players and their clubs, his diabolical english and general communication problems, his public criticisms of players like McLean, Clarke etc???

I was happy enough when he was appointed but since that Russia game in Dublin, doubts set in and his total failure to even contemplate changing tack or accept any responsibility has meant he's not up to it. Oh and i thought this long before Poland.

Mocha Joe

jmayo wrote: »

Ehh for the last few years of Jack's reign all of the current minmows were around (Soviet union collapsed in 89) and in fact I would bet that in those days the smaller countries shipped a lot more goals than they do today.



Ehh with all this talk about how great the teams we have been beaten by over the last few games, I decided to take a look at how we stack up in comparison to others who have played the same opposition.
AFAIK these stats are correct.

Germany have only managed to put 5 or more goals past these teams in the last few years.

2008 Liechtenstein 0 - 6 Germany
2008 Germany 4 - 0 Liechtenstein
2009 United Arab Emirates 2 - 7 Germany
2009 Germany 4 - 0 Azerbaijan
2010 Germany 4 - 0 Australia
2010 Germany (WC) 4 - 1 England
2010 Germany (WC) 4 - 0 Argentina
2010 Germany 6 - 1 Azerbaijan
2011 Germany 4 - 0 Kazakhstan
2011 Germany 6 - 2 Austria
2012 Germany (EC) 4 - 2 Greece
2012 Rep of Ireland 1 - 6 Rep of Ireland

So in last few years the only time Germany has put six past an opponent and not at home was when playing the powerhouses of UAE and Liechtenstein.

Way hay aren't we in classy company. :rolleyes:

And if we looked at Spain the only time big team that Spain hammered as much or more than us was the Italian team in the Euros.
And a lot of folks reckon that Italy had totally run out of steam at the end.

The other teams that they got more than 4 goals against were Korea, Venezuela, Liechtenstein, Belgium, Austria, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Poland, Azerbaijan, Armenia, USA, New Zealand and again most of these were at home.

We can gloss over the defeats all we like by claiming these teams are in the top ten, but on very few occassions has a team so full of players playing in a major league (PL and indeed the championship) been so comprehensively beaten by these big teams and especially on their home turf.

I haven't the time to go through the Italy or Croatia.

We beat ourselves 6-1? Are these fifa 2013 results?