Republic of Ireland v Germany - 12/10/2012 - 19:45 - RTE2/SS2

Predalien

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Long-term hip injury, but even before that he was playing with the Wolves reserves.

Didn't know he was injured but the point stands that certain players who have attributes that would suit certain games have been put in apparent exile for no good reason.

Predalien

noodler wrote: »

Two things:

1) We only have two strikers available if Cox is playing out on the wing. So we could only play one, so Walters was the right choice.

That doesn't justify putting Cox on the wing when he clearly doesn't have a clue how to play there. Walters on the other hand does occasionally play wide or in midfield for Stoke and is in general the more versatile player.

Pro. F

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I love people bitching about Ward and others playing as if any other players would have made a fucking difference.

The team selection is fine. We are rank outsiders for this one no matter what. End of story.

So we should give up and not try our best in every possible way including team selection? That is a particularly stupid argument.
...

I'm quite happy with that team. Except for Ward all the selections are justified one way or another imo. Even Cox on the wing, as Noodler said, is no big deal since McClean and Duff aren't available and Coleman is playing fullback. I'd prefer Long up front, but if we are going to play long balls then Walters is the best choice.

Will be interesting to see how that midfield performs. I hope McCarthy and Fahey can overcome Trap's influence and bring a bit of control to the midfield.

Pro. F

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I agree Wilson could have been a good shout but the lad has one international cap. Throwing him in at the deep end - and boy would this be the deep end - would be a massive gamble to take. In this case I can understand Trap going with a player experienced in the role who knows the system well.

Ward's experience counts for nothing when he has shown himself to be an awful defender. The idea that what Wilson does at his club at left back would be different to what is required of an Irish left back is nonsense.

Predalien

Predalien wrote: »

That doesn't justify putting Cox on the wing when he clearly doesn't have a clue how to play there. Walters on the other hand does occasionally play wide or in midfield for Stoke and is in general the more versatile player.

Is cox deffo starting on the wing rather than up front ? Like you say yourself think we would be better with Walters on the wing as he does this a bit for Stoke. Unless the two boys are interchanging during game.

noodler

kitakyushu wrote: »

On that point, why wasn't Noel Hunt called up? He's playing and scoring in the Prem and has already worked under Trap.

Is he another one out of favour with the manager (I'm losing track at this point)?

Hunt has now scored in conseutive weeks for Reading in the EPL but, even with our current striker predicament, I would not really be pushed either way with him being in the squad.

Keane was only confirmed out today and Cox, Walters and Long is plenty of cover.

I think you'd need to be a bit of a conspiracy theorist to argue Trap has it in for Hunt when Hunt has only been scoring goals for one week and Keane only got injured today.

Predalien wrote: »

That doesn't justify putting Cox on the wing when he clearly doesn't have a clue how to play there. Walters on the other hand does occasionally play wide or in midfield for Stoke and is in general the more versatile player.

I wasn't justifiying anything.

Just correcting your mistakes. Hunt is injured.

Predalien

noodler wrote: »

I wasn't justifiying anything.

Just correcting your mistakes. Hunt is injured.

You clearly were trying to justify the choice of Cox on the wing when it makes no logical sense and I acknowledged my error in another post.

noodler

Deleted User wrote: »

Is cox deffo starting on the wing rather than up front ? Like you say yourself think we would be better with Walters on the wing as he does this a bit for Stoke. Unless the two boys are interchanging during game.

Theres other considerations though.

Walters is clearly our best bet to lead a 4-5-1 formation.

If we had the choice of:

Cox wide and Walters up front on his own
OR
Walters wide and Cox up front on his own

then I totallyunderstand why we have opted for the latter.

Expecting a performance out of Cox even though it is Germany. He managed to perform for us last season even when he wasn't getting a look in for WBA - will be interesting to see how banging in wonder goals for Forrest every other week does for his confidence (even out wide).

Predalien wrote: »

You clearly were trying to justify the choice of Cox on the wing when it makes no logical sense and I acknowledged my error in another post.

See above. The Cox choice had to be made with other considerations - it couldb't be taken in a vaccum.

Francie Barrett

Pro. F wrote: »

The idea that what Wilson does at his club at left back would be different to what is required of an Irish left back is nonsense.

Stoke have a very good defensive record and Wilson is a major part of that defence. It's madness that we don't make him our first choice.

clubberlang12

noodler wrote: »

Jesus Christ, we have won one game in the last 14 years against a top seed and you want to pretend like its something unique to Trap.

I am far from pretending such. Myself and Redkop were debating the point of the stat he put up. I put up my opinion of how one sided stats can be shown when you, actually proven the theory, posted that we didn't beat superior ranked teams under Stan or Kerr. The one-sided point i showed was that had you not chosen to represent your point with the worst 2 appointments in the last 20 odd years you would have seen that the previous 2 managers had both guided Irish teams to competitive wins against higher rank teams.

No one is claiming that Ireland were, or ever have been, world-beaters. But again, dramatise your point in hope of making it look better.

Anyway, this is the match thread and i don't want to derail it any further. Obviously the depth of the German sqaud and talent is frightening, but i am slightly encouraged by our 11. With Fahey and McCarthy we look to have a midfield that will try and hold onto the ball when we have it and also push the German midfield back. One of our main faults has been to sit to deep in our own half and encourage teams upon us. While you will barely get away with that against the lower sides of Europe, the Euro's showed what superior teams will do given the time and space. Ward will no doubt be targeted but now is not the time to throw someone else in. Robbie would not have suited the lone striker role, as shown in the Euro's, so Walters looks a better option. Key will be for the attacking midfielders to get up to support Walters with any balls he wins. Fahey, McGeady and Cox need to be aware of this. I would have preferred Long in the lone striker role as he also has a tendancy to be able to pop up in the right place to score.

Now is the time to get a result of some kind off the Germans. They weren't too impressive in the opening game and perhaps won't have found their upper gears yet either. By worrying about just one of their players leaves it open for anyone of their other players to have time and space.

Backstreet Moyes

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I love people bitching about Ward and others playing as if any other players would have made a fucking difference.

The team selection is fine. We are rank outsiders for this one no matter what. End of story.

So what we should be happy that better players are overlooked for inferior players are you actually serious. We are rank outsiders so what so we should be happy that playing a weaker team further limits our chance. What a load of rubbish.

Predalien

noodler wrote: »

Theres other considerations though.

Walters is clearly our best bet to lead a 4-5-1 formation.

If we had the choice of:

Cox wide and Walters up front on his own
OR
Walters wide and Cox up front on his own

then I totallyunderstand why we have opted for the latter.

Expecting a performance out of Cox even though it is Germany. He managed to perform for us last season even when he wasn't getting a look in for WBA - will be interesting to see how banging in wonder goals for Forrest every other week does for his confidence (even out wide).





See above. The Cox choice had to be made with other considerations - it couldb't be taken in a vaccum.

Except you give no good reason for Cox playing on the wing, it's been tried before and didn't work at all. Vacuum? I'm considering it from the perspective where we have a good premier league player who does occasionally play on the wing or a championship striker who has never shown any aptitude or potential for the position. Then again none of this matters as we are just going to aimlessly lump the ball and hope the referee is blind and stupid. I half wonder if Ward plays cos he can kick the ball further than Wilson/Kelly.

Backstreet Moyes

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I agree Wilson could have been a good shout but the lad has one international cap. Throwing him in at the deep end - and boy would this be the deep end - would be a massive gamble to take. In this case I can understand Trap going with a player experienced in the role who knows the system well.

What are you on about again its not like Wilson is a younster who has little experience. Wilson is playing consistently at a higher level and is a better player. He knows how to play left back and is a better player than Ward. Ward has shown he is not upto the task and needs to be replaced. Thrown in at the deep seriously he is not a 17yr old with a few games under his belt he a Premiership player with loads of football experience.

noodler

Predalien wrote: »

Except you give no good reason for Cox playing on the wing, it's been tried before and didn't work at all. Vacuum? I'm considering it from the perspective where we have a good premier league player who does occasionally play on the wing or a championship striker who has never shown any aptitude or potential for the position. Then again none of this matters as we are just going to aimlessly lump the ball and hope the referee is blind and stupid. I half wonder if Ward plays cos he can kick the ball further than Wilson/Kelly.

Who would you have played on the wing if not Cox?

Pro. F

All things considered, I really can't see the problem with Cox on the wing just now. He has very good close control so at least he brings that to the position and he could end up linking up well with Fahey and McCarthy, depending on how the rhythm of the midfield develops.

Predalien

noodler wrote: »

Who would you have played on the wing if not Cox?

Walters or Coleman, or if I was feeling experimental Long. We've seen Cox on the wing, he has not done well, there is no point playing him there. Even playing Fahey out there makes more sense. You don't seem to see many options.

Mr. Guappa

noodler wrote: »

Who would you have played on the wing if not Cox?

Walters on the wing with Long up front or Coleman on the wing with Kelly at RB.

Predalien

Pro. F wrote: »

All things considered, I really can't see the problem with Cox on the wing just now. He has very good close control so at least he brings that to the position and he could end up linking up well with Fahey and McCarthy, depending on how the rhythm of the midfield develops.

Did you watch him play on the wing for us? Looked lost and hurried every time he got the ball, he doesn't have the composure for it, he kept falling over.

noodler

Pro. F wrote: »

All things considered, I really can't see the problem with Cox on the wing just now. He has very good close control so at least he brings that to the position and he could end up linking up well with Fahey and McCarthy, depending on how the rhythm of the midfield develops.

To be honest, Fahey can go wide a bit if needed.

There is a degree of interchangability there.

---

Meyler - Andrews

---

Fahey

---

McGeady

---

Cox

---

---

Walters

---

That looks good (I know thats not the way the personnel are being deployed obviously).

Predalien

Given all my moaning think I might stick a few quid on Cox to be man of the match, in case I'm completely wrong.

Banjaxed82

I just read that Trap still hasn't confirmed if the team is playing 4-3-3 or 4-4-2. In theory Fahey could be on the wing, and Trap could still be messing about with that striker dropping back bollix.

clubberlang12

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

I just read that Trap still hasn't confirmed if the team is playing 4-3-3 or 4-4-2. In theory Fahey could be on the wing, and Trap could still be messing about with that striker dropping back bollix.

I would nearly guarantee that it will be more of a 4-5-1 with a packed midfield than a 4-3-3 style attacking formation. Can't see ~Trap playing open against the Germans. Containment will be the name of the game for Trap.

noodler

Predalien wrote: »

Walters or Coleman, or if I was feeling experimental Long. We've seen Cox on the wing, he has not done well, there is no point playing him there. Even playing Fahey out there makes more sense. You don't seem to see many options.

Walters has to play up front in a 4-5-1. The ball has to stick and we need a physical presence to make it stick.

Playing Coleman on the right wing means playing Kelly whop hasn't kicked a ball in the league this season.

Picking the best man for the lone front role has to be the first consideration, once the choice of Walters was understandably made, there aren't really any options for the wing with Coleman playing RB.

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Walters on the wing with Long up front or Coleman on the wing with Kelly at RB.

I'd hate to see Long play a long role against the Germans. No practice at it. Much better given the balance of alternatives to save him for later.

Predalien wrote: »

Did you watch him play on the wing for us? Looked lost and hurried every time he got the ball, he doesn't have the composure for it, he kept falling over.

Cox actually is one of our better ball player ironically enough. I hope a 5-man midfield will help get him involved more out there thought.
I'm sure our wingers are going to be compact tomorrow night anyway as the Germans get alot of the ball.


I have to admit to feeling a little bit more excited (if not optimistic) after seeing the team sheet.

noodler

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

I just read that Trap still hasn't confirmed if the team is playing 4-3-3 or 4-4-2. In theory Fahey could be on the wing, and Trap could still be messing about with that striker dropping back bollix.

I think I'd rather Fahey right and McGeady left with Cox dropping behind Walters than the alternative.

TheBunk1

Good to see Coleman starting. Ward is the biggest issue in that team selection for me. Cox on the left may be ok. Personally I'd rather have seen McGeady on the left and Long on the right with Walters up front.

Hopefully we can keep it tight in the early stages and not get f**ked by conceding another early goal. It's somewhat difficult to be optimistic about tomorrow although I'm looking forward to seeing how we play in the new formation.

klose

Why will lahm not be playing? I assume gomez is injured.

Blatter

whippedcream wrote: »

Why will lahm not be playing? I assume gomez is injured.

Lahm is suspended. Gomez, Hummels and Bender (I think) are injured.

Banjaxed82

noodler wrote: »

I think I'd rather Fahey right and McGeady left with Cox dropping behind Walters than the alternative.

A rose by any other name is ....4-4-2.

We'll get demolished.

GLaDOS

Given the injuries, I actually think it's a decent selection. I'd drop Ward and Cox for Wilson and Kelly, and push Coleman forward to right wing, but otherwise it's hard to argue much.

Still don't expect much though...

Pro. F

Predalien wrote: »

Did you watch him play on the wing for us? Looked lost and hurried every time he got the ball, he doesn't have the composure for it, he kept falling over.

He definitely has the composure for it. He is a very good first touch. What he has suffered from previously has been the physical impossibility of the task for him when playing wide in Trap's 442. Cox playing in a 451 with two ball players in the centre and a big striker could work much better imo.

Predalien

noodler wrote: »

I'd hate to see Long play a long role against the Germans. No practice at it. Much better given the balance of alternatives to save him for later.

You're happy to have Cox on the right even though he never plays there but exclude the option of Shane Long as a lone striker for that very reason, brilliant. Oh and Shane Long is more mobile than Walters which is a far more important asset when playing on your own up front, and physically Shane Long is very tough and holds the ball up well, can run with the ball too, something Walters struggles with. I admire your optimism though.

Pro. F

I seriously hope it isn't going to be a 442 with Fahey out wide. 442 doesn't work Trap!

Banjaxed82

http://www.joe.ie/football/football-news/trap-decides-not-to-go-long-against-germany-0029227-1

Though Trap would seem a little unsure as to what way the team will line up. He has reportedly said this afternoon that the team will play either 4-4-2 or 4-3-3, but ‘we will not decide until we are on the pitch’.

:eek:

Predalien

Pro. F wrote: »

He definitely has the composure for it. He is a very good first touch. What he has suffered from previously has been the physical impossibility of the task for him when playing wide in Trap's 442. Cox playing in a 451 with two ball players in the centre and a big striker could work much better imo.

A good first touch means nothing when the second is panicked and rushed cos he's playing somewhere he has no understanding of.

Blatter

Didn't Tardelli already say that we'll be playing three in the middle and one will most likely be man marking Ozil?

LuckyLloyd

Rekop dog wrote: »

Clark has been weak for Villa this season, don't think he would add to much to the fold in this form.

He's been very poor the couple of times I watched them play.

Pro. F

Predalien wrote: »

A good first touch means nothing when the second is panicked and rushed cos he's playing somewhere he has no understanding of.

Nonsense. He has a fine understanding of the position, he just has to deal with his physical limitations. You are talking nonsense, I'm done with this shíte.

Banjaxed82

Blatter wrote: »

Didn't Tardelli already say that we'll be playing three in the middle and one will most likely be man marking Ozil?

Didn't Tardelli say that Keane's injury wouldn't keep him out of the Germany game. Nothing to worry about. Just a knock.

Blatter

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Didn't Tardelli say that Keane's injury wouldn't keep him out of the Germany game. Nothing to worry about. Just a knock.

I didn't know that. But in fairness, I don't think we can equate him saying that an injured player is going to be fit in time to him admitting that they'll probably use a specific tactic against arguably Germany's most influential player.

He probably thought Keane was going to recover in time. I don't see the value in him lying about it, especially when the team is named days before the game.

NEDDURC

I think the injuries have worked out quite well in that they've forced Trap into playing some better ball players and changing things around. I would prefer Long upfront with Walters on the right wing and drop Cox.

Main thing for me is not to concede early and try to get some passing going throughout the match. They were the two things that we really lacked in euros that hurt us badly against a good team.

SantryRed

How often has Coleman played RB in the past couple of years? we are absolutely fcuked down our left hand side too with Cox and Ward :rolleyes:

Aenaes

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

http://www.joe.ie/football/football-news/trap-decides-not-to-go-long-against-germany-0029227-1



:eek:

He didn't really say that. He said they could change formations while on the pitch. "He has reportedly said" ? If he's a journalist, why wasn't he at the press conference or at least watching the live stream?

Cox on the wing might not be a bad idea. When he's played there before, we played with 2 strikers so he was stuck out wide. With just Walters up front, there's a chance Cox can push on and support him and one of the midfielders can take his place on the wing if we manage a break.

Predalien

SantryRed wrote: »

How often has Coleman played RB in the past couple of years? we are absolutely fcuked down our left hand side too with Cox and Ward :rolleyes:

Coleman has been playing right back for Everton a good bit recently because of Hibbert being injured. He'll be very restricted in Trap's supposed system though.

noodler

Predalien wrote: »

You're happy to have Cox on the right even though he never plays there but exclude the option of Shane Long as a lone striker for that very reason, brilliant. Oh and Shane Long is more mobile than Walters which is a far more important asset when playing on your own up front, and physically Shane Long is very tough and holds the ball up well, can run with the ball too, something Walters struggles with. I admire your optimism though.

Predalien wrote: »

A good first touch means nothing when the second is panicked and rushed cos he's playing somewhere he has no understanding of.

You do go on!


I honestly don't know where to begin.

Watch more football.

Lumbo

Predalien wrote: »

Coleman has been playing right back for Everton a good bit recently because of Hibbert being injured. He'll be very restricted in Trap's supposed system though.

Yeah, he's played about 3/4 games at right back this season. Some good performances from him as well.

dsmythy

Coleman is playing against Germany. Either should play on the wing or not at all. Germany will be doing all the attacking, is there no defensive right backs available?

Mr.Nice Guy

Nuts102 wrote: »

So what we should be happy that better players are overlooked for inferior players are you actually serious. We are rank outsiders so what so we should be happy that playing a weaker team further limits our chance. What a load of rubbish.

How inferior is Ward to Wilson? You'd swear Wilson was a Cole or Baines the way some of you are going on.

Obviously the manager should play the best team but maybe the manager feels that experience is useful against the Germans rather than throwing in a chap with one cap, which came in a friendly against Wales.

My point is we are rank outsiders no matter what and even if we had a Cole or Baines that would be the case. The real rubbish is the idea that because Ward plays now will lose, as if the odds would have been much different otherwise. You are trying to find a scapegoat in this guy as opposed to actually trying to get behind your country.

Pro. F

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

How inferior is Ward to Wilson? You'd swear Wilson was a Cole or Baines the way some of you are going on.

Ward is very inferior to Wilson. Wilson doesn't need to be Ashley Cole to be miles better than Ward.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Obviously the manager should play the best team but maybe the manager feels that experience is useful against the Germans rather than throwing in a chap with one cap, which came in a friendly against Wales.

My point is we are rank outsiders no matter what and even if we had a Cole or Baines that would be the case.

Wilson has played against plenty of top EPL sides, he has plenty of experience. And it's laughable to suggest that Ward's international experience comes even close to making up for the difference in quality between the two players.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The real rubbish is the idea that because Ward plays now will lose, as if the odds would have been much different otherwise. You are trying to find a scapegoat in this guy as opposed to actually trying to get behind your country.

Nobody is saying that for fúck sake. All people are saying is that we should be giving ourselves the best opportunity to win. We can all disagree about who is better and who is more suited, but your shít strawman arguments are really annoying.

And also, just because any given poster is criticising a particular selection doesn't mean they aren't going to be "getting behind their country." You seriously need to cop on.

Mr.Nice Guy

Pro. F wrote: »

Ward is very inferior to Wilson. Wilson doesn't need to be Ashley Cole to be miles better than Ward.

I disagree. Wilson may be the better player but I don't think there's a lot in it.

Pro. F wrote:

Wilson has played against plenty of top EPL sides, he has plenty of experience. And it's laughable to suggest that Ward's international experience comes even close to making up for the difference in quality between the two players.

Well Ward has played against plenty of top EPL sides as well. I don't see what's laughable about maybe not wanting to throw in an inexperienced player against one of the world's greatest sides.

Pro. F wrote:

Nobody is saying that for fúck sake. All people are saying is that we should be giving ourselves the best opportunity to win. We can all disagree about who is better and who is more suited, but your shít strawman arguments are really annoying.

Read the thread. There's plenty of talk that because Ward plays now all of a sudden we are doomed.

Pro. F wrote:

And also, just because any given poster is criticising a particular selection doesn't mean they aren't going to be "getting behind their country." You seriously need to cop on.

My idea of being a supporter is getting behind the team and not manager/player bashing. Some people do need to cop on though;we agree on that much.

Pro. F

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I disagree. Wilson may be the better player but I don't think there's a lot in it.

Well Ward has played against plenty of top EPL sides as well. I don't see what's laughable about maybe not wanting to throw in an inexperienced player against one of the world's greatest sides.

Read the thread. There's plenty of talk that because Ward plays now all of a sudden we are doomed.

My idea of being a supporter is getting behind the team and not manager/player bashing. Some people do need to cop on though;we agree on that much.

We're going to have to just disagree on the amount of difference in quality between Ward and Wilson.

However Wilson is not an inexperienced player. That is a complete fabrication. Playing top level EPL teams equates well to international football.

I have read the thread. I have seen no posts where people are saying that it is only because of the selection of Ward that we are in real danger in this game. Before the confirmation of Ward's selection everybody had already accepted that this German team posed a massive threat.

If you are only interested in trumpeting your support of the manager and players then there is no point in you discussing team selections. Your opinions on player selections and manager decisions are invalid.