Republic of Ireland v Germany - 12/10/2012 - 19:45 - RTE2/SS2

Pro. F

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I'm unclear as to whether you now accept that you were mistaken when you claimed that 'the substance of a criticism can be judged independent of the people making it'? That has been the issue here between yourself and I. If you now accept this then of course we can indeed move forward.

You don't understand what I mean by that statement. I'll add a little to it which might clarify it for you.

With reference to other sources of evidence (in this case the evidence of what we have seen of the two players) the substance of a criticism (in this case the selection of Ward over Wilson being a poor choice is the substance of the criticism) can be judged independently of the people making it.

Predalien

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I'm unclear as to whether you now accept that you were mistaken when you claimed that 'the substance of a criticism can be judged independent of the people making it'? That has been the issue here between yourself and I. If you now accept this then of course we can indeed move forward. Come on you boys in green.

How on earth could that be mistaken? If it is clear that a criticism is valid then the (supposed) agenda of some people making that criticism is of no relevance and does nothing to diminish the validity of that criticism.

Mr.Nice Guy

Pro. F wrote: »

With reference to other sources of evidence (in this case the evidence of what we have seen of the two players) the substance of a criticism (in this case the selection of Ward over Wilson being a poor choice is the substance of the criticism) can be judged independently of the people making it.

But again you miss the point: the substance of the criticism cannot be judged independently of the person making it if the criticism comes from someone who has previously shown an interest in seeing Trapattoni leave his position.

Predalien wrote:

How on earth could that be mistaken? If it is clear that a criticism is valid then the (supposed) agenda of some people making that criticism is of no relevance and does nothing to diminish the validity of that criticism.

The agenda of the person making the criticism is all important. Do you believe unquestionably and uncritically everything politicians say or do you actually look beneath the surface and try to determine if there is an underlying agenda?

Backstreet Moyes

simongurnick wrote: »

It's not irrelevant. Your point moaning about squad players being picked ahead of other squad players is irrelevant.Like I said, show me how it has negatively affected us when we qualfied for the euros and reached the play offs of the previous campaign.
Otherwise, stop going around in circles. You are boring the life out of me.

I will show you how it negatively affected us. Gibson a regular for a top half Premiership side went to the Euro's and didn't get a minute on the field. Even with a dead rubber game left he didn't get on the pitch. This would have been an ideal time to give experience to a player who should be a big part of our future. Instead a free agent from the Championship gets on the pitch. Now Gibson has made himself unavailable which is a big blow.

Wilson around Gibson's age constantly overlooked besides being our best option again had issues with Trap. How long before he decides to make himself unavailable.

Long shining as a lone Striker for WBA and perfect to replace Keane and cant get on the pitch. Also had issues with Trap.

McClean has sat on the bench watching Championship strikers playing ahead of him. Has issues with the manager.

McCarthy finally getting a look in probably because of injuries. Had issues with the manager.

Coleman has never been giving a proper chance.

Clark not even in the original squad despite starting regularly for a Premiership side, how long before he gets fed up.

All these players are in their early 20's and the future and instead are watching older poorer players play ahead of them. Trap has some sort of system and sacrafices Ireland's future by picking these poorer players instead of changing up things and play the best players.

The Kevin Foley incident i think lost the dressing room and that was evident in the Euro's and against Kazakhstan. Also think its the reason for older players retiring. The fact so many players have had issues with him surely cant be ignored.

Their is alot of young blood around that should be the new guard but Trap don't care about the future of Ireland. Unfortunately after this campaign most of these players will be 27/28 and have very little International experience which is a shame they should be playing now. Its actually the best squad we have had in 10 years but unfortunately we are not getting to see the best of it. So hard to watch.

Pro. F

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

But again you miss the point: the substance of the criticism cannot be judged independently of the person making it if the criticism comes from someone who has previously shown an interest in seeing Trapattoni leave his position.

The agenda of the person making the criticism is all important. Do you believe unquestionably and uncritically everything politicians say or do you actually look beneath the surface and try to determine if there is an underlying agenda?

This really is an incredibly stupid thing that you are saying. I can't explain it any more simply for you so I'm going to leave it.

FatRat

Due to injuries our choices at RB are: Coleman, McSHANE and Kelly. Now who would you pick?


I'm an Everton fan so maybe I'm a bit biased but I truly believe Coleman should have been on this team in some shape or form a good while ago. He is a solid RB and very versatile in that he can play on the wing well too. One thing this Irish team seriously lacks is attacking Full-backs that can actually attack and are also decent defenders. All the best teams nowadays have their Full backs attack whenever the team is in possession. If we want to modernize this team and keep it up to date with the advances other teams are making, we need players like Coleman.


BUT, It is asking a hell of a lot of Coleman to come into the starting team against Germany. He'll be up against Marco Reus or Lukas Podolski two men that are on serious form. And it isn't the ideal game to be playing an attacking defender imo. Not the right game for Coleman to be starting off with but I believe he'll do well.


I'll be wearing an Everton jersey with Coleman on the back at the game in support of him

Mr.Nice Guy

Pro. F wrote: »

This really is an incredibly stupid thing that you are saying. I can't explain it any more simply for you so I'm going to leave it.

There's nothing stupid in what I'm saying. During the Keane/Saipan issue, Dunphy made an impassioned defence of Keane and criticised McCarthy. On occasion (when he wanted to) he made a very articulate defence of Keane.

According to your point of view, in this instance one should simply take on board the content of Dunphy's opinions - or as you put it - 'the substance of a criticism can be judged independent of the people making it', rather than look for the possibility of an underlying agenda.

This of course is what is stupid. For Dunphy, as we all know, had a vested interest in the matter due to his work on Keane's book at the time, and if in future there are sporting historians who want to look into the matter they will have to take that into account.

Pro. F

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

There's nothing stupid in what I'm saying. During the Keane/Saipan issue, Dunphy made an impassioned defence of Keane and criticised McCarthy. On occasion (when he wanted to) he made a very articulate defence of Keane.

According to your point of view, in this instance one should simply take on board the content of Dunphy's opinions - or as you put it - 'the substance of a criticism can be judged independent of the people making it', rather than look for the possibility of an underlying agenda.

This of course is what is stupid. For Dunphy, as we all know, had a vested interest in the matter due to his work on Keane's book at the time, and if in future there are sporting historians who want to look into the matter they will have to take that into account.

That is not what I said one should do. You are showing a serious inability to read.

Mr.Nice Guy

Pro. F wrote: »

That is not what I said one should do. You are showing a serious inability to read.

Did you not say this:

But it doesn't change the substance of the criticism. The substance of a criticism can be judged independent of the people making it. A criticism will remain even if all the people who made it are dead and never going to post again. So you can look at the substance of a criticism on its own.

I'm not sure how I'm taking this up wrong. It seems to me like you're saying one can judge a criticism on its own without taking on board the importance of who is making it.

simongurnick

Nuts102 wrote: »

I will show you how it negatively affected us. Gibson a regular for a top half Premiership side went to the Euro's and didn't get a minute on the field. Even with a dead rubber game left he didn't get on the pitch. This would have been an ideal time to give experience to a player who should be a big part of our future. Instead a free agent from the Championship gets on the pitch. Now Gibson has made himself unavailable which is a big blow.

Wilson around Gibson's age constantly overlooked besides being our best option again had issues with Trap. How long before he decides to make himself unavailable.

Long shining as a lone Striker for WBA and perfect to replace Keane and cant get on the pitch. Also had issues with Trap.

McClean has sat on the bench watching Championship strikers playing ahead of him. Has issues with the manager.

McCarthy finally getting a look in probably because of injuries. Had issues with the manager.

Coleman has never been giving a proper chance.

Clark not even in the original squad despite starting regularly for a Premiership side, how long before he gets fed up.

All these players are in their early 20's and the future and instead are watching older poorer players play ahead of them. Trap has some sort of system and sacrafices Ireland's future by picking these poorer players instead of changing up things and play the best players.

The Kevin Foley incident i think lost the dressing room and that was evident in the Euro's and against Kazakhstan. Also think its the reason for older players retiring. The fact so many players have had issues with him surely cant be ignored.

Their is alot of young blood around that should be the new guard but Trap don't care about the future of Ireland. Unfortunately after this campaign most of these players will be 27/28 and have very little International experience which is a shame they should be playing now. Its actually the best squad we have had in 10 years but unfortunately we are not getting to see the best of it. So hard to watch.

You are right about the fact players having an issue with Trap can't be ignored. But the problem is with the players.
These guys are primadonna's. Who the fcuk does Gibson think he is to self select not to play for his own country? He was barely a squad player at Man U and has not set the world alight with any of his Irish performances.
Same goes for MacLean with his outburst on Twitter. The guy is a kid and goes public and insults the whole team!
How many dust up's did Charlton have during his time?
The manager is the boss. The team is the be all and end all.
And, I was talking about the last two qualification campaigns. Traps selections worked.
Now he is actually starting to change the personnel and bring in younger players. Let's see hope they can do it tomorrow!

Pro. F

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Did you not say this:

I'm not sure how I'm taking this up wrong. It seems to me like you're saying one can judge a criticism on its own without taking on board the importance of who is making it.

Yes I am saying that you can judge a criticism on its own merit without reference to who has made it. If the criticism is true it will be true regardless of who said it.

Pro. F

simongurnick wrote: »

How many dust up's did Charlton have during his time?

How many? Tell us every dust up that is known about Charlton having with players. It was nowhere near the number that have happened with Trapattoni.

simongurnick wrote: »

And, I was talking about the last two qualification campaigns. Traps selections worked.

Achieving some success does not prove that different player selections would have been better.

Mr.Nice Guy

Pro. F wrote: »

Yes I am saying that you can judge a criticism on its own merit without reference to who has made it. If the criticism is true it will be true regardless of who said it.

Well if that's what you think it looks like we'll just have to agree to differ.

Pro. F

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Well if that's what you think it looks like we'll just have to agree to differ.

No shít.

simongurnick

Pro. F wrote: »

How many? Tell us every dust up that is known about Charlton having with players. It was nowhere near the number that have happened with Trapattoni.



Achieving some success does not prove that different player selections would have been better.

Are you sniffing glue man?
Charlton clashed with Brady, probably the greatest player we have ever had.
He clashed with Ronnie Whelan, again one of the best midfielders we've had.
He didn't pick O'Leary for two years!
Were you even born when this happend??? Anyone that fcuked with Big Jack knew all about it.

fryup

i can see ireland getting slaughtered tommorow night i really do, esp with that depleted makeshift line-up

Banjaxed82

simongurnick wrote: »

Are you sniffing glue man?
Charlton clashed with Brady, probably the greatest player we have ever had.
He clashed with Ronnie Whelan, again one of the best midfielders we've had.
He didn't pick O'Leary for two years!
Were you even born when this happend??? Anyone that fcuked with Big Jack knew all about it.

Charlton was man enough to still play his best players, bust up or not. Brady and Whelan's bust up was based around style of play, not because they were being left out for no apparent reason.

Trap gets a sniff of dissent for whatever reason, and you're black listed.

Do you think Trap would have played Paul McGrath? Out getting sh!tfaced the night before the match, barely training. Like fcuk he would have.

Charlton played a certain way, yes, but he always played his best players.

Pro. F

simongurnick wrote: »

Are you sniffing glue man?
Charlton clashed with Brady, probably the greatest player we have ever had.
He clashed with Ronnie Whelan, again one of the best midfielders we've had.
He didn't pick O'Leary for two years!
Were you even born when this happend??? Anyone that fcuked with Big Jack knew all about it.

That's three so far. You have a long way to go before you get anywhere near Trap's record.

And yes I was born in '81.

simongurnick

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Charlton was man enough to still play his best players, bust up or not. Brady and Whelan's bust up was based around style of play, not because they were being left out for no apparent reason.

Trap gets a sniff of dissent for whatever reason, and you're black listed.

Do you think Trap would have played Paul McGrath? Out getting sh!tfaced the night before the match, barely training. Like fcuk he would have.

Charlton played a certain way, yes, but he always played his best players.

No he didn't. Brady, O'Leary and Whelan. And it wasn't all about style of play. They butted heads on a personal level too. Plenty of stories in the autobiographies about it.
As for McGrath, he was a special situaton and a special player. I think if Trap was in a similar situation he would look for a way to deal with.
He could have given MacLean the boot for good but he recognises the talent.

Pro. F

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Charlton was man enough to still play his best players, bust up or not. Brady and Whelan's bust up was based around style of play, not because they were being left out for no apparent reason.

Trap gets a sniff of dissent for whatever reason, and you're black listed.

Do you think Trap would have played Paul McGrath? Out getting sh!tfaced the night before the match, barely training. Like fcuk he would have.

Charlton played a certain way, yes, but he always played his best players.

I think he retired Brady early too to be fair. But yeah, generally Charlton managed to get a balance between implementing his system and getting the best players on the pitch. Trap is nothing like that.

simongurnick

Pro. F wrote: »

That's three so far. You have a long way to go before you get anywhere near Trap's record.

And yes I was born in '81.

Too funny. It's not about the number mate, it's about who they were.
We haven't a player nowadays that could lace Brady's boots and if we did you can be sure Trap would play him.

Backstreet Moyes

simongurnick wrote: »

You are right about the fact players having an issue with Trap can't be ignored. But the problem is with the players.
These guys are primadonna's. Who the fcuk does Gibson think he is to self select not to play for his own country? He was barely a squad player at Man U and has not set the world alight with any of his Irish performances.
Same goes for MacLean with his outburst on Twitter. The guy is a kid and goes public and insults the whole team!
How many dust up's did Charlton have during his time?
The manager is the boss. The team is the be all and end all.
And, I was talking about the last two qualification campaigns. Traps selections worked.
Now he is actually starting to change the personnel and bring in younger players. Let's see hope they can do it tomorrow!

You really ignored most of the points i explained why the likes of Gibson and McClean should be annoyed. Plus Gibson has been ever present in a very strong Everton team. What did Trap say he wouldn't play him once he sat on the bench for United. He joins another team and does well and sits their watching Green play ahead of him. I dont blame him for making himself unavailable it must be torture being behind the likes of Green.

Meyler McCarthy Gibson

McGeady McClean

Long

How great it would be to see that when all fit not that we will ever see it. All young and well able to play football. Instead when everyone is fit we will be back to the usual.

simongurnick

Christ, he even butted heads with a young Roy Keane!

Pro. F

simongurnick wrote: »

Too funny. It's not about the number mate, it's about who they were.
We haven't a player nowadays that could lace Brady's boots and if we did you can be sure Trap would play him.

So when you said "How many dust up's did Charlton have during his time?" you didn't actually mean "how many". It would have been simpler if you had just said what you really meant in the first place.

Pro. F

simongurnick wrote: »

Christ, he even butted heads with a young Roy Keane!

Holy Crap not Roy Keane!

noodler

Nuts102 wrote: »

Long shining as a lone Striker for WBA

Is that even true?

I was sure WBA play with two strikers.

Pro. F

noodler wrote: »

Is that even true?

I was sure WBA play with two strikers.

More often with Morrison behind him than Lukaku on the pitch afaik. So I'd count that as upfront on his own.

Banjaxed82

simongurnick wrote: »

No he didn't. Brady, O'Leary and Whelan.

Brady: Fair enough with Brady. Still played him a bit though.

Whelan: Between 1986-1990 Whelan played 26 times for Ireland (in an era of less internationals). Injury fcuked up things for him after that.

O'Leary: McGrath, Moran, McCarthy. I would agree if O'Leary was being replaced by a Paul Green of the time, but that was clearly not the case. Anyway, O'Leary refused to cancel a holiday and fcked off instead when called up as a replacement for a mickey mouse tournament. Don't see the problem there with Jack having the hump.

Roy Keane: Still played him. Bust up or not.

BASHIR

3 nil to Ireland, Walters brace and Cox late goal. COYBIG

simongurnick

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Brady: Fair enough with Brady. Still played him a bit though.

Whelan: Between 1986-1990 Whelan played 26 times for Ireland (in an era of less internationals). Injury fcuked up things for him after that.

O'Leary: McGrath, Moran, McCarthy. I would agree if O'Leary was being replaced by a Paul Green of the time, but that was clearly not the case. Anyway, O'Leary refused to cancel a holiday and fcked off instead when called up as a replacement for a mickey mouse tournament. Don't see the problem there with Jack having the hump.

Roy Keane: Still played him. Bust up or not.

I'm not saying I have a problem with Jack and O'Leary that time.
Jack played them all a bit but Trap has butted heads with MacLean, Wilson and McCarthy and has brought them back in too.

Pro. F

simongurnick wrote: »

I'm not saying I have a problem with Jack and O'Leary that time.
Jack played them all a bit but Trap has butted heads with MacLean, Wilson and McCarthy and has brought them back in too.

Jack played them more than a bit.

simongurnick

Pro. F wrote: »

Jack played them more than a bit.

Jack did not play O'Leary for two solid years. Did not even have him in a squad.
He missed out on Euro 88.
Ronnie Whelan's own words: "“My international career could have been better.
“I should have played a lot more games.
“I had a few problems with Jack Charlton which eventually came to a head.
“I wasn't sure if he trusted me to do the job he wanted from me
.Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/premiership/former-kop-ace-whelan-tells-it-like-it-is-16072000.html#ixzz299VhBZV6
Brady was one of the best players in Europe at the time and Jack never got the best out of him.
Roy Keane never got on with Jack. What if Keane had pulled a Gibson at the time??
Point is, Jack laid down the law and got results and he laid down the law with more important players than anyone Trap has clashed with.
The manager has to be the boss. Look at Fergie, he's ruthless when he needs to be. You can't have players running the show...look at Chelsea!

Pro. F

simongurnick wrote: »

Jack did not play O'Leary for two solid years. Did not even have him in a squad.
He missed out on Euro 88.
Ronnie Whelan's own words: "“My international career could have been better.
“I should have played a lot more games.
“I had a few problems with Jack Charlton which eventually came to a head.
“I wasn't sure if he trusted me to do the job he wanted from me
.Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/premiership/former-kop-ace-whelan-tells-it-like-it-is-16072000.html#ixzz299VhBZV6
Brady was one of the best players in Europe at the time and Jack never got the best out of him.
Roy Keane never got on with Jack. What if Keane had pulled a Gibson at the time??
Point is, Jack laid down the law and got results and he laid down the law with more important players than anyone Trap has clashed with.
The manager has to be the boss. Look at Fergie, he's ruthless when he needs to be. You can't have players running the show...look at Chelsea!

Read Banjaxed's post above. Brady was the only one Jack screwed over and even that was towards the end of his career.

Jack did butt heads, but he had far more of a balance between his system and playing the best players available than Trap has shown.

LuckyLloyd

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Charlton was man enough to still play his best players, bust up or not. Brady and Whelan's bust up was based around style of play, not because they were being left out for no apparent reason.

Trap gets a sniff of dissent for whatever reason, and you're black listed.

Do you think Trap would have played Paul McGrath? Out getting sh!tfaced the night before the match, barely training. Like fcuk he would have.

Charlton played a certain way, yes, but he always played his best players.

Dave O' Leary and Ronnie Whelan are rolling their eyes at this while warming the bench in Genoa.

LuckyLloyd

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

O'Leary refused to cancel a holiday and fcked off instead when called up as a replacement for a mickey mouse tournament. Don't see the problem there with Jack having the hump.

O'Leary doesn't exactly jump at some 'mickey mouse' friendlies - fine.

Wilson, Reid, McCarthy, McClean, Stokes, etc aren't enthusiastic / professional and they get the hump - OMG THE MANAGER IS RUINING OUR BESTEST SQUAD IN A DECADE

Your position is ridiculous, but it's nothing new. Charlton was criticised during and after his reign for not letting our talent loose or playing better football. People forget so quickly what we were before 1986 - Eoin Hand turned out gifted sides that played good football and were Team Pussy Willow whenever it mattered.

Before Trapp we had just gone through a qualifying campaign that was 1970's shambolic and depressing.

Also, whoever is arguing that this is our best collection of eligible players in a decade are talking through their hoop.

The 2006 squad had Roy Keane; Given, Duff, Keane, Dunne all in far better shape and form; the likes of Kinsella, Holland, Finnan, Carsley. It was far superior to what we possess now (just having Keane on the pitch made us a far tougher proposition).

Anyway, the haters won't know what they've got till it's gone. I'm going to the match later and I'll be roaring the team and manager on - they absolutely can sneak a result.

SEPT 23 1989

All this talk of the Charlton era makes the whole thing worse:(

leonidas83

Its funny but this team is starting to look it should now. If we were able to replace O'Dea(Clarke), Ward(Wilson), Andrews(Houlahan) & Cox(Walters) with Long upfront id be confident we'd get a decent result against them.

leonidas83

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

All this talk of the Charlton era makes the whole thing worse:(

Agree, holding J.Charlton's era up as an example of where we should be aiming for shows you how low our expectations have fallen over the last few years.

applehunter

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Also, whoever is arguing that this is our best collection of eligible players in a decade are talking through their hoop.

The 2006 squad had Roy Keane; Given, Duff, Keane, Dunne all in far better shape and form; the likes of Kinsella, Holland, Finnan, Carsley. It was far superior to what we possess now (just having Keane on the pitch made us a far tougher proposition).

Anyway, the haters won't know what they've got till it's gone. I'm going to the match later and I'll be roaring the team and manager on - they absolutely can sneak a result.

On one hand you are writing off the present generation of players and at the same time you think they can get a result off one of the top 3 sides in the world.

LuckyLloyd

applehunter wrote: »

On one hand you are writing off the present generation of players and at the same time you think they can get a result off one of the top 3 sides in the world.

Yes, because at our lowest ebb in 2007 we managed to draw with Germany at home. The French team that went onto to lose the WC Final in a shootout narrowly escaped with a win in September 2005.

All Irish teams stand a chance in Landsdowne Road against any opposition on any day.

Neither am I writing off the current generation. They are obviously limited, but have demonstrated that they can come close to qualifying when organised within a system under a bullish manager. I would hotly dispute the notion that Wilson, Clarke, Coleman, McClean and Long (and whoever else people will be placing on a pedestal next month) are world beaters or better than squads we had in the 2002 and 2006 campaigns but that doesn't mean I'm writing us off.

We aren't Wales.

LuckyLloyd

leonidas83 wrote: »

Agree, holding J.Charlton's era up as an example of where we should be aiming for shows you how low our expectations have fallen over the last few years.

lol, World Cup Quarter Finalists equate to low expectations? Three successful qualification campaigns from five?

I would submit that equating expectations / success to style and quality of football rather than end results and achievements shows how retarded modern football fans are. I don't give a flying **** how Ireland play so long as I feel they are in the mixer to qualify for tournaments.

Awesomeness

Gutted to be missing the game but I will be at the bar all night waiting for this to start and drumming up as much support as I can. Probably have more support from a bunch of chinese lads than Ive seen from a lot of people on here

SteelyDanJalapeno

Lads, any ideas where I might get accommodation in the city for the game tonight? got tickets at the last minute,

somewhere reasonably priced preferably!

LuckyLloyd

Awesomeness wrote: »

Gutted to be missing the game but I will be at the bar all night waiting for this to start and drumming up as much support as I can. Probably have more support from a bunch of chinese lads than Ive seen from a lot of people on here

The negativity swirling around a team that qualified for a major finals last year and missed out by the narrowest of margins the previous campaign is utterly baffling and ridiculous. Lots of people should be ashamed of themselves. As George Bernard Shaw once said:

"Put an Irishman on the spit and you can always get another Irishman to turn him".

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I'm hoping we get stuffed 0-5 and Trap is shown the door.

Know that your attitudes would be a nice bit of extra sprinkling on the victory cake were we to get a result.

cournioni

As much as I'd love to see the new lads do well I can only see one result, a Germany win. 1-3 for Germany in my opinion.

doncarlos

TiltedBrain wrote: »

Lads, any ideas where I might get accommodation in the city for the game tonight? got tickets at the last minute,

somewhere reasonably priced preferably!

Try http://www.hotwire.com/
They have lots of last minute deals on hotels which are cheaper than you'd normally pay.

suicide_circus

simongurnick wrote: »

Trap...
Now he is actually starting to change the personnel and bring in younger players

credit where it's due but he's only changing personel because he's been forced to.

I think the point that Trap is sacrificing Ireland's future is a valid one. In order to maintain his system, younger players are deprived of game time and that has got to tell down the line, no?

leonidas83

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

lol, World Cup Quarter Finalists equate to low expectations? Three successful qualification campaigns from five?

I would submit that equating expectations / success to style and quality of football rather than end results and achievements shows how retarded modern football fans are. I don't give a flying **** how Ireland play so long as I feel they are in the mixer to qualify for tournaments.

Yah & a draw against Lichenstein to finish off his rein in style I suppose. The game has moved on since the hump it long & hope for the best style has worked. Anyone advocating that style of football that J.Charlton epitomised is in serious denial about the modern game. J. Charlton was a good scout, thats about it. The amount of good players we had at our disposal then & the style of football we played was a farce.

Your the type of fan happy to see us just make up the no.'s at tournaments, luckily your type of thicko approach to football is dying out.

kitakyushu

Pro. F wrote: »

That's three so far. You have a long way to go before you get anywhere near Trap's record.

And yes I was born in '81.

He also clashed with Keane during a US trip and "did a Foley" on Gary Waddock right before the world cup. Probably others too only we didn't have the complete media saturation back then that we have now.

I think Charlton and Trap are the same old school mould. They've no time for prima donnas and will sooner blackball them then try manage their egos like goes on at club level.

Difference I reckon is players back in the 80s wanted to be there a bit more and would put up with more abuse. I get the impression players today have already lost the novelty by about cap10 and see international football almost as an inconvenience. If everything isn't done their way then bye-bye.

I'd say if Charlton was Ireland manager today he'd probably be close to/ahead of Trap for number of players frozen out. Even the way they both had Ireland playing shows neither of them gave a damn about the fans or even the players as long as the team was getting results.

applehunter

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Neither am I writing off the current generation. They are obviously limited, but have demonstrated that they can come close to qualifying when organised within a system under a bullish manager. I would hotly dispute the notion that Wilson, Clarke, Coleman, McClean and Long (and whoever else people will be placing on a pedestal next month) are world beaters or better than squads we had in the 2002 and 2006 campaigns but that doesn't mean I'm writing us off.

They are limited more by that fact that they have not been given a chance.

They are limited by Trap's system that doesn't allow them to show what they can do.

Trapattoni picked us up off the floor and put some discipline into the team 4 years ago but he has shown that he is unable or unwilling to progress the team beyond that.