EU birth, paternal recognition, names and guardianship

Brineybay

Hello there people,

I would be very grateful for any information you may have regarding
a future overseas birth and parental recognition. I have read the Treoir manual and Citizen's information etc but two points are still unclear to me:

Where the father of the child is married to someone else, can he 1.
still recognise the child of another Irish unmarried citizen born in
another EU country (Italy) and put his surname jointly on the birth
cert. along with the mother's without having to produce separation or
divorce papers and 2. can he obtain joint-guardianship
through the mother's consent without having to produce separation or
divorce papers? if so what is the procedure?

Thanks in advance

eviltwin

Do you live in Italy or Ireland?

Brineybay

I am resident in Italy.

Moonbeam

In Ireland he can but having the name n the birth cert means very little as for guardianship I am going to presume the answer is yes too.
Talk to citizens advice or a solicitor though.

It depends n the childs country of residence and the mothers nationality and residence.

Brineybay

Hi, The child will be resident in Italy. Guardianship is indeed a separate issue from naming and inclusion on birth cert. Hoping someone here might be able to shed more light on it for me as i'm not in Ireland. Have heard nothing from Treoir or Citizens advice even though I have mailed both. Thanks.

eviltwin

If all 3 of you are living in Italy I am guessing you would have to contact the local citizens information to see where you stand. Unless someone here is also a resident and knows the local procedures. I don't think Irish organisations will be able to help you here.

Brineybay

My partner is in Ireland. I and my future child in Italy. We are Irish citizens all three. The birth cert here and child status, naming etc. is subject to the citizen's country's law. If it is possible in Ireland it is possible here too. What is not clear is whether he can become a legal joint guardian, also being named, (joint-surname) on birth cert without actually having to produce either divorce or separation papers and if so what is the procedure, documentation etc. not an easy one!

Fromthetrees

I can't follow precisely what you want and need.
You're marital status improves your legal standing regarding any child, getting divorced won't change anything, basic rights would already be in place.
If what your talking about is transnational forms, court applications and legal processes than you'll probably need a solicitor with competent English and Italian.

eviltwin

Brineybay wrote: »

My partner is in Ireland. I and my future child in Italy. We are Irish citizens all three. The birth cert here and child status, naming etc. is subject to the citizen's country's law. If it is possible in Ireland it is possible here too. What is not clear is whether he can become a legal joint guardian, also being named, (joint-surname) on birth cert without actually having to produce either divorce or separation papers and if so what is the procedure, documentation etc. not an easy one!

I don't get this at all. Is the child born? If so are you and the child in Italy and the mother is in Ireland or what? Very confused as to your set up.

Brineybay

There may be some crossed wires here.. I am unmarried..and my partner married still to someone else! just saw the previous reply..I am the mother by the way..

eviltwin

Okay so he is Irish and living here, you are in Italy with the baby. Well he can be put on the birth cert even though he is married to someone else at least that is the case here in Ireland, it would obviously have to be checked what the law in Italy is as that will determine what happens but him being married won't prevent him going on the birth cert if its what you both want.

Brineybay

Yes, thanks a mil for answering number 1. can you get me sources for that and whether he needs to produce separation or divorce papers? Anyone know the answer to number 2. and relevant sources?

eviltwin

Brineybay wrote: »

Yes, thanks a mil for answering number 1. can you get me sources for that and whether he needs to produce separation or divorce papers? Anyone know the answer to number 2. and relevant sources?

I don't have any sources other than knowing people in relationships while still legally married being able to put their names on birth certs.

Re the second question you will need to find out over there if your laws allow for a married person to be given joint guardianship. I'm not sure if he will have a problem this end but can he not check that out himself? It would be a lot easier for him to ring the Citizens Advice than have you do it.

The Corinthian

Not sure about double-barrelled names, but if what you're talking about is registering the surname of the child in Italy on the birth cert, then if the father recognizes the child as his own then it should be possible (caveat about double-barrelled names aside).

The following links (in Italian) may be of use:

http://www.cognomematerno.it/Qualecognomeallanascita/tabid/59/Default.aspx

http://www.informafamiglie.it/emiliaromagna/documenti-e-pratiche/il-riconoscimento-di-paternita-o-di-maternita/riconoscimento-di-paternita-o-maternita/user_view

The hospital you're registered to should also be able to advise you or direct you to the necessary government office that can.

Brineybay

Thanks Corinthian..I am an Irish citizen therefore what goes on the cert and other matters relating to guardianship etc. is under Irish jurisdiction..ie. they do here what's done in Ireland!

The Corinthian

Brineybay wrote: »

Thanks Corinthian..I am an Irish citizen therefore what goes on the cert and other matters relating to guardianship etc. is under Irish jurisdiction..ie. they do here what's done in Ireland!

I very much doubt it's under Irish jurisdiction unless you intend to return to Ireland shortly after the birth - typically matters relating to custody, guardianship (or the local equivalent), access and the like are handled in the jurisdiction where the child is resident. As such, it will subject to Italian law.

Another side point on Irish citizenship and foreign birth. If born abroad, an Irish citizen does not automatically pass on Irish citizenship to their own children - or at least it's more complicated than an Irish born citizen. Being born in Italy myself, I'm all too aware of this bit of red tape.

Brineybay

Firstly, citizenship does pass directly onto the child as an EU citizen. I have two children, both born here in Italy..both immediately entitled to Irish citizenship..my surname, Irish passports and affidavits that I have sole guardianship (done through consulate).

Secondly, if you look at this:http://www.famigliaitaliana.com/articoli/Registare_un_figlio_alla_nascita_1131.jsp

"In Italia i cittadini stranieri devono presentare il passaporto e in caso di riconoscimento di figlio naturale occorre una dichiarazione rilasciata dall’ambasciata o dal consolato per convalidare il riconoscimento secondo la legge nazionale del proprio paese di origine."

Ci sono tanti altri riferimenti Corinthian!

The Corinthian

Brineybay wrote: »

Firstly, citizenship does pass directly onto the child as an EU citizen.

I didn't say it doesn't, only that it that there's some extra red tape involved, including when they are passing on their Irish citizenship.

Secondly, if you look at this:http://www.famigliaitaliana.com/articoli/Registare_un_figlio_alla_nascita_1131.jsp

"In Italia i cittadini stranieri devono presentare il passaporto e in caso di riconoscimento di figlio naturale occorre una dichiarazione rilasciata dall’ambasciata o dal consolato per convalidare il riconoscimento secondo la legge nazionale del proprio paese di origine."

Ci sono tanti altri riferimenti Corinthian!

Questo riguarda riconoscimento della cittadinanza del proprio paese di origine - cosa a da fare con il certificato di nascita, guardianship o altro se il bambino vive in Italia?

Brineybay

La stessa cosa,foro di competenza è sempre il paese di origine essendo cittadino irlandese.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Brineybay wrote: »

Firstly, citizenship does pass directly onto the child as an EU citizen.

I didn't say it doesn't, only that it that there's some extra red tape involved, including when they are passing on their Irish citizenship.

Secondly, if you look at this:http://www.famigliaitaliana.com/articoli/Registare_un_figlio_alla_nascita_1131.jsp

"In Italia i cittadini stranieri devono presentare il passaporto e in caso di riconoscimento di figlio naturale occorre una dichiarazione rilasciata dall’ambasciata o dal consolato per convalidare il riconoscimento secondo la legge nazionale del proprio paese di origine."

Ci sono tanti altri riferimenti Corinthian!

Questo riguarda riconoscimento della cittadinanza del proprio paese di origine - cosa a da fare con il certificato di nascita, guardianship o altro se il bambino vive in Italia?