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Waterford gives a shirt.
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Both remain Cities. Both have City & County councils. Both are by law the same type of City. Therefore, they were not downgraded.
The argument you and others should be making is that Waterford *might* be at a disadvantage. For reasons X Y and Z and let the debate commence.
Indeed. I don't think WGAS asked about the VEC in that infamous letter, did they? I can't remember, but I am sure they are raising the other issues but while the core point is going on about how Phil Hogan is out to get Waterford and claiming we are no longer a City - than I wont be able to support such a campaign and will be correcting any inaccuracies and false suggestions. Well, I wont be on their Facebook seeing as they blocked me.
Can you explain how Waterford will have a City and County Council as you stated above, if they are merged under the current proposal? I think you need to do a little more research on this matter.0 -
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Can you explain how Waterford will have a City and County Council as you stated above, if they are merged under the current proposal? I think you need to do a little more research on this matter.
Ah sorry.
You are of course, correct. I just don't want all the focus to be on the City is all. My passion is for Waterford as a whole and I believe we need to pick ourselves up a bit more. As someone said over the on TheJournal, Waterford is full of doom and gloom. Do we want people thinking that?
For what its worth, I do have concerns with how this re-organised region will have for Waterford. I'm on the bench more than swaying either way and nobody has put up a convincing argument either way. But I don't want to drag this topic off course. Not running away, ill discuss it elsewhere gladly.
In addition, I do feel that WGAS are rightfully pointing out the neglect by current and previous governments and that its a trend of chipping away at Waterford. But its the other factors that that me not supporting their campaign. That's the only reasons but people wont see beyond that.0 -
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Psychedelic wrote: »Sully, on the one hand I can understand what you are saying, you are effectively playing devil's advocate to all the conjecture surrounding Phil Hogan and the downgrading of our city status. I was a bit uncertain myself about the claims made by the WGAS campaign. However, the strength of tone which you express this here, and even more so on Facebook, says to me you have a major loyalty to Fine Gael, and therefore you are not fully seeing things objectively.
It looks to me that within minutes of a positive announcement for Waterford you are on here clapping FG on the back, on top of your usual defenses of FG criticism. You can't wait to say, "I told you so, FG aren't all that bad."
I don't doubt your passion for Waterford, but I think your party loyalties are clouding your judgement. I don't condemn everything FG does and I am all for giving them a fair chance to do things, but this FG/Lab Government (at cabinet level anyway), has proven they are nothing but scum just like FF. And I actually voted for Paudie and Deasy (2nd and 3rd preferences).
Fcuk FG, why do you stand up for them so vehemently? Reilly, Hogan, Kenny, Howlin...I know hard decisions have to be made but these guys are pulling strokes and some of those strokes are negatively impacting Waterford, and more importantly Ireland. Just because Hogan pushes the button on funds we were due anyway doesn't mean he's a stand-up guy.
Thank You for a civilised post. It makes a nice change, so thanks for that.
I have spoken with many on the issues that WGAS and Save Waterford raise. The issues surrounding possible challenges Waterford faces, the chipping away at us over the years and so on. As a local business person, on a small scale, and with family in business in Waterford, that alone would encourage me to ensure Waterford does not further deteriorate and go down a dark tunnel to oblivion. I want Waterford to perform as strong as any other city or town in Ireland. Why wouldn't I?
This is one of the reasons I have been 110% behind Save Waterford and I think my loyalty towards Waterford AND my passion for saving Waterford cannot be smeared, despite repeated attempts by some on here and on the WGAS Facebook page.
My issues with WGAS do not stem from my political connections, and again, I think my support of the Save Waterford Campaign proves that. To say I am loyal to Fine Gael is a little unusual, because I have been openly critical of how they have performed in government. That includes Phil Hogan, but on the national scale only.
To a degree, I am loyal. If I feel that someone is being critical towards the party I support unfairly or making suggestions towards them or individuals which are untrue, I will clarify the confusion. Many people who spread such have heard it elsewhere and thought it was fact, so in most cases, people are thankful that it was clarified.
On the other hand I have engaged in discussions which have been critical of Fine Gael or this government as a whole. That includes the implementation of a Property Tax, for example. The hitting of home help hours, the hitting of Child Benefit and so on. Funnily enough, Fianna Fail are right - its the wrong time. But, it would appear their hands are tied thanks to Fianna Fail. I don't know how true that is, because both sides argue the toss of that coin and I don't know the truth. But it wont make me support it anymore.
With their being so much negativity towards our local representatives and the government as a whole - I have three times now shown where the party have issued funding towards Waterford. To show the positives, rather than constantly focus on the negatives.
As for the negatives, well the only negatives so far IIRC are the VEC Merger and the potential downgrading of our Hospital (something people are suggesting as already happened, which is false). The VEC wasn't much of a topic but hospital is something I was completely on side of the majority, despite it being potentially against the party.
So, yeah. Loyal? To a degree. Loyal to a point where I cant see the wood from the trees? No, I think I have proven that case firmly as false. Will it make a difference? Not at all, people will gun for me on my political views alone. Me not supporting WGAS just puts fuel on the fire, because one cannot go against the majority. 0 -
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Thank You for a civilised post. It makes a nice change, so thanks for that.
I have spoken with many on the issues that WGAS and Save Waterford raise. The issues surrounding possible challenges Waterford faces, the chipping away at us over the years and so on. As a local business person, on a small scale, and with family in business in Waterford, that alone would encourage me to ensure Waterford does not further deteriorate and go down a dark tunnel to oblivion. I want Waterford to perform as strong as any other city or town in Ireland. Why wouldn't I?
This is one of the reasons I have been 110% behind Save Waterford and I think my loyalty towards Waterford AND my passion for saving Waterford cannot be smeared, despite repeated attempts by some on here and on the WGAS Facebook page.
My issues with WGAS do not stem from my political connections, and again, I think my support of the Save Waterford Campaign proves that. To say I am loyal to Fine Gael is a little unusual, because I have been openly critical of how they have performed in government. That includes Phil Hogan, but on the national scale only.
To a degree, I am loyal. If I feel that someone is being critical towards the party I support unfairly or making suggestions towards them or individuals which are untrue, I will clarify the confusion. Many people who spread such have heard it elsewhere and thought it was fact, so in most cases, people are thankful that it was clarified.
On the other hand I have engaged in discussions which have been critical of Fine Gael or this government as a whole. That includes the implementation of a Property Tax, for example. The hitting of home help hours, the hitting of Child Benefit and so on. Funnily enough, Fianna Fail are right - its the wrong time. But, it would appear their hands are tied thanks to Fianna Fail. I don't know how true that is, because both sides argue the toss of that coin and I don't know the truth. But it wont make me support it anymore.
With their being so much negativity towards our local representatives and the government as a whole - I have three times now shown where the party have issued funding towards Waterford. To show the positives, rather than constantly focus on the negatives.
As for the negatives, well the only negatives so far IIRC are the VEC Merger and the potential downgrading of our Hospital (something people are suggesting as already happened, which is false). The VEC wasn't much of a topic but hospital is something I was completely on side of the majority, despite it being potentially against the party.
So, yeah. Loyal? To a degree. Loyal to a point where I cant see the wood from the trees? No, I think I have proven that case firmly as false. Will it make a difference? Not at all, people will gun for me on my political views alone. Me not supporting WGAS just puts fuel on the fire, because one cannot go against the majority.
What's is that supposed to mean sully?0 -
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Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 21860
fuzzy dunlop wrote: »I see you're still coming out with this crap that because we had a minister and "done well" for a couple of years it is equal to what is going on now regarding Phil Hogan and Kilkenny. It is completely different.
Hold back the cavalry. Its been argued that Waterford is at a significant loss that we don't have a Minister. Its no secret that they are bound to be looked after more, sure parish pump politics is part of our electoral system. Plus, you can be damned sure he is fighting for his constituency around the cabinet table. That's exactly what Waterford had and Waterford wants.The main projects that Waterford benefitted from were almost without exception REGIONAL in nature and mainly centred on roads and WIT.
The N9 from Waterford was a disgrace and a very unsafe road. The M9 and a ByPass were hardly just for the benefit of the region as Waterford would be using the N9 and the Bypass more than anybody else. WIT will benefit Waterford more than any other region and considering on the list of demands to help Waterford is a University, you kinda shot yourself in the foot there suggesting its a regional benefit only.Considering that many of these issues were historically neglected anyway means that the benefits of the Cullen years were only rectifying issues that would and should have been done anyway.There is no comparable arguement for Kilkenny whatsoever or Wexford or Clonmel.
Never once suggested we were well looked after by this or previous governments. If anything I have agreed that services have been chipped and we have been neglected. But I will point out any positives thrown our way, however little.What is going on now is that cabinet ministers are throwing any sustainable policy out the window to fit their own parochial agenda like breaking up the hospital network in the SE so Lukes can benefit[/quite]
In terms of St Lukes wanting to break away, this is not a government position. Has the Minister even got the report which is suggesting a break away? Also, it was the consultants in St Lukes which voted to break from WRH and it was not on a government order or anything to do with the government. Yet. (Note: I have spoken on the Kilkenny Forum disagreeing with this, so don't come back suggesting I support it).And the idea that Hogan and Howlin will not get elected if they don't do it is nonsense. They are like Deasy and will get elected come rain hail or shine.If we didn't know better it would like like these three were hereditary peers.
Deasy isn't exactly miles ahead of everybody if you look at the polling. They have been in opposition for years so their seats wouldn't be under much threat. Now that they are in government, people will focus their anger and ask 'What did you do for me the past four years?'. Fact. You cant dispute that, even reading election threads on here proves that point. Hogan is getting booed at public events in Kilkenny and my understanding is that he has lost a lot of support in Kilkenny. No idea about Howlin.The other thing is that prior to the election FG and Labour especially locally pledged that this time it would be different. It could have been and it would have been easy to have been because our economic situation is unique and unprecedented . But as we know now it was a lie like many other lies.
Indeed, this government came in on a bunch of lies. Even I know that. Labour claiming they wont cut child benefit and Fine Gael saying they wont pay the bondholders. Just two examples. The budget being another - fair my arse. But, of course, me slating the government will get overlooked and people will pretend I didn't say such and when I come out supporting something, its all attack.You also have a credibility problem Sully and not just because you are a FG'r.
Still the most popular party in the state... So I think a lot of people support Fine Gael still. Well, maybe not after that budget.You asserted here a couple of weeks ago that the amalgamation of the VEC's to Wexford made sense when the fact is there was no evidence at all that this was the case. There is no evidence on record or statements that supportted Wexfords case in fact it was the contrary. The fact that you tried to slip this one through again depite it being debunked ad nauseum on another thread and the same for your assertions about Cullen shows you are simply playing the game you are accusing others of doing.
Can you link me to that post? I can't remember exactly what I said. There appeared to be very little evidence to suggest either way, if I remember that old thread correctly. But, happy to be proven wrong as I am far from perfect and I do get things wrong and make mistakes.As for the cyber bullying this like the Tesco thread is just a smear against people who are not willing to see their city being ****ed over and is frankly beneath contempt.
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I would have to disagree with you on that. A number of people on this forum have been downright rude, made it very personal, insulting and had their own political agendas when on their witch hunt. This has been highlighted not just by me.
Passion for the City is one thing, but targeting someone because he thinks WGAS is a poor campaign and Save Waterford is doing better, targeting someone just because he supports (to some degree) one of the governments parties and so on is 'frankly beneath contempt'. Commenting on my passion and making false remarks about me was also over the line, and further proved my point re: WGAS.
Phil Hogan and Kilkenny is not Waterfords problem. End of story.0 -
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Hold back the cavalry. Its been argued that Waterford is at a significant loss that we don't have a Minister. Its no secret that they are bound to be looked after more, sure parish pump politics is part of our electoral system. Plus, you can be damned sure he is fighting for his constituency around the cabinet table. That's exactly what Waterford had and Waterford wants..
And what FG pledged to changed but didn't even thoughh they could.The N9 from Waterford was a disgrace and a very unsafe road. The M9 and a ByPass were hardly just for the benefit of the region as Waterford would be using the N9 and the Bypass more than anybody else. WIT will benefit Waterford more than any other region and considering on the list of demands to help Waterford is a University, you kinda shot yourself in the foot there suggesting its a regional benefit only..
Somebody shot themselves in the foot alright! You! The N9 and M9 serves Carlow and Waterford and was moved closer to better accomodate Kilkenny. WIT is a regional facility, the only thing thats local is the name Waterford in the title.It always served the whole SE and the fact that the vast majority of students are from across the SE shows this. If this is the way Waterford FG thinks then its no wonder they are as poor as they are.Never once suggested we were well looked after by this or previous governments. If anything I have agreed that services have been chipped and we have been neglected. But I will point out any positives thrown our way, however little.
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The positives are tokens and one has to ask are they positives at all compared to day to day spending which I would say would show they are not. Or if they are reactions to the uproar to the plethora of downgrades we have had to endure within the space of weeks we are so unbelievabl in scale when you see them on the boards they look like someone is trolling.In terms of St Lukes wanting to break away, this is not a government position. Has the Minister even got the report which is suggesting a break away? Also, it was the consultants in St Lukes which voted to break from WRH and it was not on a government order or anything to do with the government. Yet. (Note: I have spoken on the Kilkenny Forum disagreeing with this, so don't come back suggesting I support it)..
Remember these words.The buck stops here! If it is not a government position why is it still been considered? St Lukes don't control or set policy. This is all has to be said to stop it.Deasy isn't exactly miles ahead of everybody if you look at the polling. They have been in opposition for years so their seats wouldn't be under much threat. Now that they are in government, people will focus their anger and ask 'What did you do for me the past four years?'. Fact. You cant dispute that, even reading election threads on here proves that point. Hogan is getting booed at public events in Kilkenny and my understanding is that he has lost a lot of support in Kilkenny. No idea about Howlin..
Well hopefully the jig is finally up for this and other bufoons. He would have been a cabinet minister by now if he hadn't decided to flout the Law of the Land in the Dail bar. But the fact is Deasy,Hogan and Howlin and until recently some FF in Waterford would have got elected or even topped the poll no matter what the political landscape was.Indeed, this government came in on a bunch of lies. Even I know that. Labour claiming they wont cut child benefit and Fine Gael saying they wont pay the bondholders. Just two examples. The budget being another - fair my arse. But, of course, me slating the government will get overlooked and people will pretend I didn't say such and when I come out supporting something, its all attack..
The problem is Sully is that what is happening is so blatent and venal that it is frankly unbelievable that you refuse to see it. The other issues are undeniable because they are in the National Newspapers and media.Still the most popular party in the state... So I think a lot of people support Fine Gael still. Well, maybe not after that budget.
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For now but so was FF.Can you link me to that post? I can't remember exactly what I said. There appeared to be very little evidence to suggest either way, if I remember that old thread correctly. But, happy to be proven wrong as I am far from perfect and I do get things wrong and make mistakes. .
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81842518&postcount=12I would have to disagree with you on that. A number of people on this forum have been downright rude, made it very personal, insulting and had their own political agendas when on their witch hunt. This has been highlighted not just by me..
Yes I agree but you are hardly alone here. I have had the same experience, Check out the Kilkenny forum to see the slander what passed for discussion and ludicrously the person slandered gets infracted. Same thing happened here for going off topic. It only seems to be a problem when Hogan and FG are involved and IMO it is only a tactic to try and avoid the staggering inexcusable hypocrisy of FG supporters here.Phil Hogan and Kilkenny is not Waterfords problem. End of story.0 -
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Whether or not you think Kilkenny should be consigned to Hell, the fact remains that it is a large urban conurbation. Would it not make sense for a national government to move a motorway closer to it so that the motorway could be fully utilised?
I live in a rural area of County Waterford, so in theory I should have no interest in what happens to the city. However, the fact remains that it is a very large city in the South East, and it is the centre of industry and employment. Now that the M9 is in operation, with the new bridge and the outer ring road, I wonder how much opportunity for employment has been offered to the residents of Kilkenny and Carlow? They can get to the IDA estates in Waterford in a fraction of the time it would have taken them before (or it least it would if the present government, as a subdivision of the Bundestag, was not trying to make motor commuting uneconomic).
Ah but, all that does is allow the savages from Kilkenny and Carlow to take our jobs. Build up the viking walls and keep out the invaders!
This is not a regional tribal issue. It is a national one (Remember: "A nation once again."). The longer the people elect to fight for their own little patch of turf, the longer the Hogans and Noonans will survive. Such warlords have done that for a thousand years. Parish pump politics is simply an extension of that. "Divide and rule" is a fundamental part of Irish and EU politics and of all politics throughout human history. It will not stop until the people see themselves as a nation, as the Polish people did, and finally cast off the yoke.
I never said Kilkenny should be consigned to the fires of hell but it is hardly a conurbation. It was Sully said thate inferred the M9 was for Waterfords purpose only. I pointed out that it wasn't. I agree with you regarding the parochial politics.That is what I have been arguing all along. So I am not really sure what you are saying? If it is that Waterfords atitude is the same is Kilkennys then I refute that. A poster in the Kilkenny forum suggested essentially building a new hospital that would be in the most convenient place for all.This does not have to be done because it already has been done.WRH is in the most convenient place in the region as is WIT.0 -
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Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 21860
fuzzy dunlop wrote: »And what FG pledged to changed but didn't even thoughh they could.
Somebody shot themselves in the foot alright! You! The N9 and M9 serves Carlow and Waterford and was moved closer to better accomodate Kilkenny. WIT is a regional facility, the only thing thats local is the name Waterford in the title.It always served the whole SE and the fact that the vast majority of students are from across the SE shows this. If this is the way Waterford FG thinks then its no wonder they are as poor as they are.
The positives are tokens and one has to ask are they positives at all compared to day to day spending which I would say would show they are not. Or if they are reactions to the uproar to the plethora of downgrades we have had to endure within the space of weeks we are so unbelievabl in scale when you see them on the boards they look like someone is trolling.
Remember these words.The buck stops here! If it is not a government position why is it still been considered? St Lukes don't control or set policy. This is all has to be said to stop it.
Well hopefully the jig is finally up for this and other bufoons. He would have been a cabinet minister by now if he hadn't decided to flout the Law of the Land in the Dail bar. But the fact is Deasy,Hogan and Howlin and until recently some FF in Waterford would have got elected or even topped the poll no matter what the political landscape was.
The problem is Sully is that what is happening is so blatent and venal that it is frankly unbelievable that you refuse to see it. The other issues are undeniable because they are in the National Newspapers and media.
For now but so was FF.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81842518&postcount=12
Yes I agree but you are hardly alone here. I have had the same experience, Check out the Kilkenny forum to see the slander what passed for discussion and ludicrously the person slandered gets infracted. Same thing happened here for going off topic. It only seems to be a problem when Hogan and FG are involved and IMO it is only a tactic to try and avoid the staggering inexcusable hypocrisy of FG supporters here.
I'm gonna wrap up my contributions to this thread with this post. For what its worth, I always do my best to reply to the individual questions / points in a reply because its easier for me to make sure I cover everything and for those to see the replies. Funnily enough, people complained when I got into debates before on this very forum for doing summary replies and missing parts. Just goes to show, you can't win.
I have no further interest in drumming home the same points and arguing the toss, going around in circles, and having free-for-all discussions full of personal vendettas and insulting remarks etc. I think everyone has made their point, as they are entitled to do so, some with a bit more respect than others. I made mistakes in this very thread earlier by identifying someone without their consent (even though I got it wrong) which was inappropriate. Indeed, it appears some thought my post in this thread about Phil Hogan was purely to rise, troll or bait WGAS and their supporters. It wasn't meant to be.
This government has failed, in my opinion, in many ways. The budget was not fair. It was never going to be easy, the poor will always be hit. But they haven't done enough to cut high earners within the government system alone, never mind the public service. I campaigned for a fairer cleaner way of doing politics and frankly, this government has failed to deliver that. I make no secret of my annoyance, anger and disappointment in this regard.
Indeed, it appears this government may be continuing down the path of chipping away - first the VEC merger and now we risk the government considering the splitting up of services at WRH (even though we were told this wont happen in our case, despite, it appears, possible recommendations in a report). Other hospitals, well, if it doesn't hit the services at WRH than let them move. Its up to the people of Kilkenny to fight their corner, not us. Happy to help, but we can't do it alone.
When the government finally does something of a positive nature I see no problem reminding the critics of such and not allowing the debate to stagnate to one side - ill knock and round on the government for ****ing up, running a poor election campaign and running poor policy choices.
I am hopeful that Waterford will get a University and I recongise we have a much stronger commitment for this than ever before, with considerable advancement on this already on both sides. So yes, I want to be positive but cautious. It appears to have stalled in the eye of the public but I understand its with both colleges to form an application. I remain hopeful that considering in less than two years the work done, we will get the promise and commitment from within the Programme for Government.
The M9 is for the benefit of the South East, yes. But it benefits Waterford massively more than other regions - well, in theory anyway but it does't seem to have worked. Its a massive investment in Waterford and a credit to the previous government. Our ByPass is solely for our own benefit, and its rarely used despite calls for it. The toll appears to be the problem there. WIT benefits the South East, yes, but again, more so for Waterford. University is being called for that very reason - for the South East but to lift Waterford specifically if it is to be the hub.
On a final note, I firmly believe Waterford needs one strong stable united voice from the public side. A non-political campaign. No hidden politics, agendas, or inappropriate core focuses. I, and to be fair, many others do not support WGAS in full despite doing so at the start. It never was and never will be, on my part, be a personal agenda. Its an opinion and I feel well formed opinion that others will agree and disagree with.
But I remain impartial and objective at all times despite my political affiliations because at the end of the day, I live here. My family live here. My nephews live here. We all work here. Its to my benefit that Waterford does well and remains a strong, vibrant City and you can be damn sure I won't let no politician or political party get in the way of ****ing up the future for me or the upcoming generations. Twist and suggest otherwise, I have proven this already. I know and those around me plus those who have approached me online and in person following this and other similar threads are in agreement.
So, the good news is that I am actually taking a break from all this politics on here. Its nasty and its a free for all at the moment. Its not a nice place to be and I know its turned a lot of folk off the forums, which is sad.
Happy Christmas 0 -
fuzzy dunlop wrote: »I never said Kilkenny should be consigned to the fires of hell but it is hardly a conurbation. It was Sully said thate inferred the M9 was for Waterfords purpose only. I pointed out that it wasn't. I agree with you regarding the parochial politics.That is what I have been arguing all along. So I am not really sure what you are saying? If it is that Waterfords atitude is the same is Kilkennys then I refute that. A poster in the Kilkenny forum suggested essentially building a new hospital that would be in the most convenient place for all.This does not have to be done because it already has been done.WRH is in the most convenient place in the region as is WIT.
I apologise for putting words into your mouth -- it wasn't my intention. I was actually trying (badly I admit) to agree with you about the motorway. According to records the population of Waterford city in 2011 was 46,747. Carlow town and Kilkenny city meanwhile, accounted for 21,840 and 24,423 respectively in 2008 and 2011: a total of 46,243 (probably more since the Carlow record was for 2008. In that case the government could be wide open to criticism had it not routed the motorway as close as possible to those two areas. Given the population sizes it can't surely be argued that the purpose was solely to serve Waterford.0 -
On a final note, I firmly believe Waterford needs one strong stable united voice from the public side. A non-political campaign. No hidden politics, agendas, or inappropriate core focuses. I, and to be fair, many others do not support WGAS in full despite doing so at the start. It never was and never will be, on my part, be a personal agenda. Its an opinion and I feel well formed opinion that others will agree and disagree with.
One stable united voice? how about you row in behind WGAS regarding the City Status for starters? Then actually recognise this "Government" for the sham that it actually is? That would seem to be a good starting point.But I remain impartial and objective at all times despite my political affiliations because at the end of the day, I live here. My family live here. My nephews live here. We all work here. Its to my benefit that Waterford does well and remains a strong, vibrant City and you can be damn sure I won't let no politician or political party get in the way of ****ing up the future for me or the upcoming generations. Twist and suggest otherwise, I have proven this already. I know and those around me plus those who have approached me online and in person following this and other similar threads are in agreement.
So, the good news is that I am actually taking a break from all this politics on here. Its nasty and its a free for all at the moment. Its not a nice place to be and I know its turned a lot of folk off the forums, which is sad.
Happy Christmas
Actually you remain far from impartial - that's quite obvious from many of your posts. Your constant and, to put it bluntly, arrogant defence of the Fine Gael Party is truly astonishing. Given their attitude towards this City and its populace.
Have you stopped to ponder that this is what is actually putting people off the forums?? When several posters point out the obvious and are reprimanded because of it?
'Twist and suggets otherwise" = pointing out the glaringly obvious. Of course those of the same "outlook" who approached you will agree. Do you think that makes you right? And you can tut-tut everyone else? Jesus wept.0 -
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So, the good news is that I am actually taking a break from all this politics on here. Its nasty and its a free for all at the moment. Its not a nice place to be and I know its turned a lot of folk off the forums, which is sad.
Happy Christmas
You have made a wise choice as some tIme and distance may allow you to see you were part of the problem.0 -
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