Waterford gives a shirt.

Trotter

Cabaal wrote: »

What about other stuff like...oh I don't know merging councils to save on overlapping staff, oh wait people bitch and moan about that too.

Thats a fine idea.
Now do it to Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford and Dublin.
That way no one city suffers and is isolated.

Unless someone wants a city to suffer and be isolated, then just pick one or two of them.

Theres the issue.

thomasm

O Riain wrote: »

What do we expect when we elect politicians who are teachers. The leader of our country is a secondary school teach ffs. It is insane.

Its not just the politicans who are not qualifed, this is something raised by Garret Fitzgerald 3 years ago about the department of finance

"When I was Taoiseach there were 17 economists working in the department. When I last checked a few years ago, there were only three, only one of whom was working on macro-economic issues -- on policy issues relating to the performances of the economy," said Dr Fitzgerald in a column in the Irish Times.



He said that he was raising the issue because of "some very wide margins of error" that had occurred in the government Department's financial forecasts.



Less than 10 per cent of the Department's 614 employees have any qualifications in finance or accountancy. :eek:



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lack-of-qualified-finance-staff-damaging-economy-1613951.html


How only 10% of those in the dept can have qualifiactions related to the role is staggering. What kinda selection process was used for these people.

Cabaal

Trotter wrote: »

Unless someone wants a city to suffer and be isolated, then just pick one or two of them. Theres the issue.

Except such thoughts have non basis in fact and are only people being paranoid, surely if the TD in question was trying to protect Kilkenny he wouldn't be merging Carlow & Kilkenny as well?

Its all tinfoil hat stuff,

jad2007

Thats a fine idea.
Now do it to Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford and Dublin.
That way no one city suffers and is isolated.

Ok so lets look at these one by one. Cork population ( city and county ) 480,000 nearly five times that of Waterford. It was decided to leave authorities in Cork alone due to population size.

Galway, report recommends that because of existing close cooperation in Galway betwen authorities there is no savings to be made. Galway co co already handle all the water for Galway.

Limerick eh this is being merged and its still a city.

Dublin. Over a million people in Dublin so arrangments stay in place.

Cabaal

jad2007 wrote: »

Limerick eh this is being merged and its still a city.

Indeed it will be
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0628/breaking56.html

I guess simple things like facts that go against the whole tinfoil hat paranoid "he's out to destroy Waterford" stuff can be upsetting though :pac:

Its easier for them to say its just about Waterford, it seems to cheer these people up somehow...weirdly.

Trotter

Cabaal wrote: »

Indeed it will be
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0628/breaking56.html

I guess simple things like facts that go against the whole tinfoil hat paranoid "he's out to destroy Waterford" stuff can be upsetting though :pac:

Its easier for them to say its just about Waterford, it seems to cheer these people up somehow...weirdly.

Glad you find the whole thing amusing. Did you grow up in Waterford? Did you see many of your friends leave because as time went on there was nothing for them here? Did you see the shops close? Did you see the unemployment levels rise to some of the highest in Ireland?

These people.. These people are the people who saw this once prosperous and proud city being gradually brought to its knees. That does not happen by accident and I've already explained earlier why.

Your flippancy suggests a detachment from the realities of life in Waterford over the last 5-10 years.

7upfree

Cabaal wrote: »

Yes in most cases yes,
Those that go onto third level are likely to be more intelligent, unless of course you think only dumb as feck people manage to complete degree's?

I've met some with degrees who can't handle the real world. I'm sure you have also..

Cabaal wrote: »

Its amusing when people bitch and moan that TD's are teachers or farmers and now you are saying that people without degree's can be smarter....surely by that logic farmers are perfectly fine? After all who's to say that they don't know more then somebody with a degree, by that reasoning who's to say that Enda isn't suitable for the job even if he just was a teacher before?

I don't really care who they are TBH - as long as they can do the job. You seem to think that a degree is a prerequisite.

Cabaal wrote: »

There's no pleasing you people, on one hand you want people with experience but now you yourself are saying they don't need any college or university experience and life experience can be far far better.

Make up your minds

I refer you to the answer above.:)

Cabaal wrote: »

Ah ok, i get you.
So all the times you bitch about Enda or FG and how Sully defends FG you don't actually mean it? As you've said yourself the civil servants run the show....

Hmm. Interesting they way you try to twist it. The reality is that Enda and Co. shouted from the rooftops when in opposition about all that they were going to do - obviously it was a pack of lies. They - like the rest of us - knew the Civil Servants would point out the obvious. As did the aforementioned Enda cheerleaders and fan club.

Cabaal wrote: »

ah ok, so you want the government run like a business...makes sense to me.

Lets look at some of the outgoings, lets see we got the social welfare billl...thats pretty high, child welfare thats part of it too, perhaps we should cut them in some way and stop people getting them in certain situations?

Oh wait, every time the government trys anything with them people will bitch and moan,

What about other stuff like...oh I don't know merging councils to save on overlapping staff, oh wait people bitch and moan about that too.

It seems the government is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. Just can't make you people happy

"You people":rolleyes:. Careful you don't trip up looking down your nose at us.

Savings?

* Yes, let's trim the number of politicians. Starting with TDs. We should have around 40 - we have 166. And the talking shop that is the Seanad.

* Let's tackle Social Welfare fraud. Oops. Can't do that we'd upset the smoked salmon socialists.

* Let's cut the public sector wage bill to affordable levels. Can't do that, we'd upset the aforementioned socialists and the CPA.

* And then people wonder why the country's in the state that is is in.

And "YOU people" try to justify it.

Trotter

I read up on this again this evening.

Essentially I can see that the crux of the matter is the removal of our ability officially to compete with Cork, Dublin and Galway. This means we are not going to be able to attract foreign direct investment where competition with these cities exist as we will be part of a second tier in Ireland.

In 2002, Phil Hogan asked for "full city status" for Kilkenny. In 2009 he said "Kilkenny has lost its City status courtesy of Fianna Fáil".

Hogan is standing over the amalgamation of the city and county which will remove the existence of Waterford city council. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is the essence of city status i.e. we have a city council, therefore we are a city.

For those that say there was no separate city/county councils when the charter was written, I say fine.. Lets go back to that because when those charters were written, they declared Waterford a city, within the top tier of cities in Europe, never mind Ireland.

If Waterford is going to be in the second tier of investment locations in Ireland, and Ireland it would seem is down the list of investment in Europe.. Then Waterford may as well throw its hat at this altogether and accept our destruction. Everyone will watch their children leave and set up homes in other cities around the world and gradually our city will dwindle and fade away.

Trick of the Tail

Trotter wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong, but this is the essence of city status i.e. we have a city council, therefore we are a city.

I hereby correct you Sir, as you are wrong.

Waterford is a city because it was made one by Royal Charter in the 12th century. Nothing can change that.

It will still be a city when the hugely inefficient administrations that 'run' (run down, some might say) County Waterford are merged into one.

Waterford City is a mess, it is declining and unemployment is rising. This has happened in the purview of the existing city council.

So surely no-one can realistically encourage their survival?

Sack them all, then advertise the jobs, and taken on people actually qualified in urban development - not the chancers we have right now.

A.

Trotter

It may keep the name 'city' but without the equal status that it affords to Galway, Cork and Dublin, then the charter will not save us. We'll be called a city in name but thats about all.

Sully

Trotter wrote: »

I read up on this again this evening.

Essentially I can see that the crux of the matter is the removal of our ability officially to compete with Cork, Dublin and Galway. This means we are not going to be able to attract foreign direct investment where competition with these cities exist as we will be part of a second tier in Ireland.

Its something I mentioned earlier as a possibility but I don't think in the grand scheme of things that it will make a difference in terms of the IDA, government funding, or prospective businesses opening here. What difference does it make to them if we have a City and County council? That's my theory and I haven't heard a response yet.

In 2002, Phil Hogan asked for "full city status" for Kilkenny. In 2009 he said "Kilkenny has lost its City status courtesy of Fianna Fáil".

Hogan is standing over the amalgamation of the city and county which will remove the existence of Waterford city council. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is the essence of city status i.e. we have a city council, therefore we are a city.

Yup, Hogan wants Kilkenny to be a city. Probably because its been calling itself, legally, that for a long time but has absolutely no City powers. More benefits I assume, for a start.

But no, its not true to say we need a City Council to be a City. That's an unfounded rumour.

For those that say there was no separate city/county councils when the charter was written, I say fine.. Lets go back to that because when those charters were written, they declared Waterford a city, within the top tier of cities in Europe, never mind Ireland.

If Waterford is going to be in the second tier of investment locations in Ireland, and Ireland it would seem is down the list of investment in Europe.. Then Waterford may as well throw its hat at this altogether and accept our destruction. Everyone will watch their children leave and set up homes in other cities around the world and gradually our city will dwindle and fade away.

See Trotter, there is nothing factual to suggest that we will be a second tier. Nothing to say that we will be treated differently and so on. We are being told 'Still a City in name and power and still have a Mayor'.

What people are suggesting is that because its a different type of council than other cities than we must be second class and we therefore will be ignored by everyone and so on. I see the point and worry, but for the love of god we have been saying the exact same thing for years while we had a City and County council and there was nothing said or done.

wellboytoo

Sully look up the 2001 local government act schedule five. Educate yourself on the legal difference spelled out there .

Trotter

Sully wrote: »

But no, its not true to say we need a City Council to be a City. That's an unfounded rumour.

I disagree. I'll back down when Dublin, Cork and Galway lose their city councils and are still deemed under Irish law to be cities.

Sully wrote: »

See Trotter, there is nothing factual to suggest that we will be a second tier. Nothing to say that we will be treated differently and so on.

Nothing to say if I jump in front of the bus I'll be killed, but I can see a bad idea coming... Its not really an argument to suggest we suck this one and see, that you reckon it'll all be fine. It wont.

I still go back to what I can see with my own eyes. I can see investment and jobs (as scarce as they are) flowing into Dublin, Cork and Galway. All 3 have Universities, and all 3 are well represented by influential politicians. I can see that the IDA are not bringing work to Waterford. I can see the VEC HQ being moved elsewhere..

I can see that decisions are all going against Waterford.. Thats no accident.

Sully

wellboytoo wrote: »

Sully look up the 2001 local government act schedule five. Educate yourself on the legal difference spelled out there .

I already did and I already spoke to you about this, Cian.

Trotter wrote: »

I disagree. I'll back down when Dublin, Cork and Galway lose their city councils and are still deemed under Irish law to be cities.

Its not a fact to say we need a City Council to be a City. Your speculating or buying into unfounded speculation / misunderstanding of the legislation.

Nothing to say if I jump in front of the bus I'll be killed, but I can see a bad idea coming... Its not really an argument to suggest we suck this one and see, that you reckon it'll all be fine. It wont.

Higher chance you wont survive and not really comparable to this. There is nothing to suggest its a bad thing. What's the harm in one administrative area for a City the size of Waterford? What states that we need separate administrations? Why not go a step further and suggest we need town councils, so that towns are not left out from the cities?

I still go back to what I can see with my own eyes. I can see investment and jobs (as scarce as they are) flowing into Dublin, Cork and Galway. All 3 have Universities, and all 3 are well represented by influential politicians. I can see that the IDA are not bringing work to Waterford. I can see the VEC HQ being moved elsewhere..

I can see that decisions are all going against Waterford.. Thats no accident.

Eh, your forgetting they already are going in that direction and we have two separate Councils. People, pre-merger, have been accusing this and the last government of neglecting Waterford. A fair and solid point. But we had two councils, two bloated well paid administrations and councilors fighting for Waterford. It got us nowhere, clearly.

wellboytoo

Sully,My name is not Cian and I have never spoken to you, so you are wrong on something then, glad to know it!

Sully

wellboytoo wrote: »

Sully,My name is not Cian and I have never spoken to you, so you are wrong on something then, glad to know it!

LOL! Okay so.

jad2007

This whole debate just serves to widen the divide between city and county. It is obvious from the way this thread is going that that neither side will ever be convinced.

Personally i think the whole thing is really sad.

People talk about "second tier citys" and "lack of investment" there is a belief in Waterford that a secret group of TV3 weather department , RTE , and Phil Hogan regularly meet in Dublin to plot the demise of Waterford.

People think that Galway and Kilkenny are busy because of benevolent politicians in the Dail.

The fact of the matter is that Galway is thriving for the years ( before Enda and Michael D) because they put in the effort themselves.

Its easier to sit here and blame everybody but ourselves, have we been hit hard ? Yes.

So we have two choices, protest moan, complain, whinge and blame everybody and everyone else ,

Or we can start to move past that and present a united front.

There is only one thing that will ever make Waterford a second tier city, that is our own negative, militant miserable attitude.

7upfree

jad2007 wrote: »

This whole debate just serves to widen the divide between city and county. It is obvious from the way this thread is going that that neither side will ever be convinced.

Personally i think the whole thing is really sad.

People talk about "second tier citys" and "lack of investment" there is a belief in Waterford that a secret group of TV3 weather department , RTE , and Phil Hogan regularly meet in Dublin to plot the demise of Waterford.

People think that Galway and Kilkenny are busy because of benevolent politicians in the Dail.

The fact of the matter is that Galway is thriving for the years ( before Enda and Michael D) because they put in the effort themselves.

Its easier to sit here and blame everybody but ourselves, have we been hit hard ? Yes.

So we have two choices, protest moan, complain, whinge and blame everybody and everyone else ,

Or we can start to move past that and present a united front.

There is only one thing that will ever make Waterford a second tier city, that is our own negative, militant miserable attitude.

The real fact is that the West presents itself as a united front - unlike down here where the likes of Hogan et al continuously snipe at Waterford. Ever stop to think there there actually is substance to it?

Regarding your comment about our 'negative, militant attitude', it itself is an indictment of a particular group of people who sneer at the actions of people who genuinely care.

Galway is thriving for years - since they got a University...and all it brings with it. At least get your facts straight.

7upfree

wellboytoo wrote: »

Sully,My name is not Cian and I have never spoken to you, so you are wrong on something then, glad to know it!

I can confirm that wellboytoo's name is not Cian, but it is surprising that a moderator - of all people - is using what HE thinks is someone's real name without their consent. Very disturbing.

7upfree

Cabaal wrote: »

Its all tinfoil hat stuff,

According to you and a select few. But far from the real situation facing us.

jad2007

At least get your facts straight.

What did i say was wrong, I said Galway was thriving for years and so did you.

Because i say we have a negative attitude you think

it itself is an indictment of a particular group of people who sneer at the actions of people who genuinely care.

So you presume I dont care, you know nothing about me and assume because I am for the merger I dont love Waterford.

7upfree

Galway City to get MORE Councillors:

http://www.galwaynews.ie/28364-major-change-electoral-areas-city-pipeline

The political landscape in Galway City is about to change dramatically following the announcement that there will be three additional local authority seats up for grabs at the next Local Elections.

The news is set to result in changes to boundaries of the three electoral wards, which will now be named municipal districts with the biggest adjustment being made in Galway City Central, which is the old West Ward.

It is expected that the three electoral wards will now have six councillors apiece when the local government reform kicks in.

At the moment Galway City Central has four seats so it means this electoral ward will be enlarged and will take in a chunk of Galway City East – possibly part of Tirellan Heights and stretching out to Menlo.

But the increase in the number of seats on Galway City Council has been slammed by a former Mayor of Galway who said that the numbers should have been cut significantly.

Fianna Fail’s Cllr Mike Crowe said that by increasing the number in the chamber, it means that less work would get done.

7upfree

jad2007 wrote: »

What did i say was wrong, I said Galway was thriving for years and so did you.

Yes - and I pointed out why.

jad2007 wrote: »

Because i say we have a negative attitude you think So you presume I dont care, you know nothing about me and assume because I am for the merger I dont love Waterford.

Not that you don't care - but misunderstand it.

Sully

Just in case you haven't noticed, this is the Waterford discussion forum!

Elbows22

Sully wrote: »

Just in case you haven't noticed, this is the Waterford discussion forum!

Just in case you haven't noticed, Wellboytoo's name is NOT Cian
Just saying :cool:

O Riain

Sully wrote: »

Just in case you haven't noticed, this is the Waterford discussion forum!

If your referring to the article on extra councillors above for Galway it seems extremely relevant to this discussion.

fuzzy dunlop

Sully wrote: »

Just in case you haven't noticed, this is the Waterford discussion forum!

But it highlights the difference in treatment of the two cities that is the point.

wellboytoo

Temper temper ....

7upfree

Sully wrote: »

Just in case you haven't noticed, this is the Waterford discussion forum!

Give it a rest. You're whipped.:)

Elbows22

7upfree wrote: »

Give it a rest. You're whipped.:)

Especially for Sully haha