Plan to build $84 million Super Mosque in Dublin Ireland.

philologos

MrD012 wrote: »

The People in the UK were probably told to "wait and see" when Islam first started to establish itself , now look , look at them , its a mess , a well documented and reported on mess .

And many people have told you clearly that from living here it isn't a mess. I think at this point it's starting to look very clearly like you're an ideologue with no interest in listening.

K-9

philologos wrote: »

And many people have told you clearly that from living here it isn't a mess. I think at this point it's starting to look very clearly like you're an ideologue with no interest in listening.

Indeed, at this state there doesn't seem to be much left in this discussion other than MrD012 repeatedly stating how opposed he is to the mosque because of Islamic fundamentalism, which is perfectly fine but it's starting to look like MrD012 needs to start a blog.

MrD012

philologos wrote: »

And many people have told you clearly that from living here it isn't a mess.

yes but thats hearsay - somebody told me something so it must be true , all of the factual evidence suggests otherwise and its not just to do with radical elements , it has to do with integration issues such as an unwillingness to abide by domestic laws and choose shariah laws instead.

philologos

MrD012 wrote: »

yes but thats hearsay - somebody told me something so it must be true , all of the factual evidence suggests otherwise and its not just to do with radical elements , it has to do with integration issues such as an unwillingness to abide by domestic laws and choose shariah laws instead.

How is it hearsay when I see for myself every day how Muslims live and work in Britain? That's not really hearsay. That's observational evidence. Indeed getting to know Muslims personally helps to grow understanding in that area. Why don't you try to get to know your Muslim neighbours if you have any?

It seems your view is based on not much more than blinkered prejudice and clutching at straws.

Disagree with Islam as much as you like. I do. Freedom of religion, conscience, worship and expression is a fundamental human liberty. It would put Ireland into a category of human rights violators if you banned the construction of mosques for no good reason other than said prejudice.

ice man75

philologos wrote: »

Even if that is true, this is still a poor argument for undermining freedom of conscience, belief and worship. I honestly don't care how extreme peoples views are, they have a right to hold them. If anyone else finds them ill-founded or silly they have the right to challenge them.

Even if their views end up in a plot like 9/11 or London, thats ok?

philologos

ice man75 wrote: »

Even if their views end up in a plot like 9/11 or London, thats ok?

People have the right to hold really rotten views. Its the job of counterterrorism squads to investigate terrorist activity or terrorist plots. People have the right to hold whatever beliefs they like as long as it doesn't adversely affect me or others.

ice man75

philologos wrote: »

People have the right to hold really rotten views. Its the job of counterterrorism squads to investigate terrorist activity or terrorist plots. People have the right to hold whatever beliefs they like as long as it doesn't adversely affect me or others.

So we have the right to hold really rotten views, as long as there not acted upon. but the trouble with that is people who tend to hold these types of views usually try to act on them.
And I know thats the job of "counterterrorism squad" but from a searh on the Garda.ie web site we appeareantly dont have one.

SeanW

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed, at this state there doesn't seem to be much left in this discussion other than MrD012 repeatedly stating how opposed he is to the mosque because of Islamic fundamentalism, which is perfectly fine but it's starting to look like MrD012 needs to start a blog.

It's a legitimate concern - for example the Finsbury Park Mosque was a terrorist recruitment centre while Abu Hamza was in charge, many other mosques are funded/run by Wahabbists and are little better.

We should be sure there is no Saudi/Wahabbist involvement with this thing before letting it be built IMHO.

old hippy

ice man75 wrote: »

Even if their views end up in a plot like 9/11 or London, thats ok?

London was home grown terrorism, we have had some of that in Ireland for decades and decades. The dizzies haven't gone away, you know.

K-9

SeanW wrote: »

It's a legitimate concern - for example the Finsbury Park Mosque was a terrorist recruitment centre while Abu Hamza was in charge, many other mosques are funded/run by Wahabbists and are little better.

We should be sure there is no Saudi/Wahabbist involvement with this thing before letting it be built IMHO.

As I said, it's perfectly fine to have concerns about fundamentalism, no issue with that, as long as we can have a half decent discussion.

I'd wonder why these groups haven't infiltrated the current mosques? That doesn't seem to be the case.

ice man75

K-9 wrote: »

As I said, it's perfectly fine to have concerns about fundamentalism, no issue with that, as long as we can have a half decent discussion.

I'd wonder why these groups haven't infiltrated the current mosques? That doesn't seem to be the case.

Do you have proof the mosques haven't been infiltrated? I doubt the preach hate out in the open it's usually cloak and dagger kinda stuff...

And as a moderator are you not supposed to be in the back ground so to speak instead of giving your opinion on topics. I'm not saying you can't have your say but maybe it should be done as a member and not someone in power as it looks bias

old hippy

ice man75 wrote: »

Do you have proof the mosques haven't been infiltrated? I doubt the preach hate out in the open it's usually cloak and dagger kinda stuff...

And as a moderator are you not supposed to be in the back ground so to speak instead of giving your opinion on topics. I'm not saying you can't have your say but maybe it should be done as a member and not someone in power as it looks bias

You've been watching too much Homeland, a chara

MrD012

philologos wrote: »

It seems your view is based on not much more than blinkered prejudice and clutching at straws.

how am I clutching at straws when I have linked to many articles relating to the impact of Islamic culture on western UK society , on the other hand all you have said so far is that you know people who told you something or you know a couple of muslim people , hardly representative of the overall picture or a basis to bury our heads in the sand so to speak.

philologos wrote: »

It would put Ireland into a category of human rights violators if you banned the construction of mosques for no good reason other than said prejudice.

As we've seen with Islam all around the world human rights is certainly not to the forefront of its teachings especially in relation to its women , therefore if you discourage it, you would actually be protecting human rights.

old hippy

MrD012 wrote: »

how am I clutching at straws when I have linked to many articles relating to the impact of Islamic culture on western UK society , on the other hand all you have said so far is that you know people who told you something or you know a couple of muslim people , hardly representative of the overall picture or a basis to bury our heads in the sand so to speak.



As we've seen with Islam all around the world human rights is certainly not to the forefront of its teachings especially in relation to its women , therefore if you disencourage it, you would actually be protecting human rights.

Have you ever lived or worked in the UK? How did it impact you on a daily basis?

Is the behaviour of the YIM in Bondi representative of Ireland?

Are the actions of paramilitary men and women of the IRA and the dizzies representative of Ireland?

wes

MrD012 wrote: »

how am I clutching at straws when I have linked to many articles relating to the impact of Islamic culture on western UK society , on the other hand all you have said so far is that you know people who told you something or you know a couple of muslim people , hardly representative of the overall picture or a basis to bury our heads in the sand so to speak.

I fail to see how your linked articles are representative either btw. I also linked an article showing that the media has made up stuff in regards to Muslims, and often solely focus on the negative, which clearly put your claim of your links being representative into question. I take you have heard the term if its bleeds, it leads.

Also, one of you main examples has no bearing on Ireland btw, due to our laws.

As I said before, you are just repeating the same thing over and over again, and ignoring any information that you don't like.

MrD012 wrote: »

As we've seen with Islam all around the world human rights is certainly not to the forefront of its teachings especially in relation to its women , therefore if you discourage it, you would actually be protecting human rights.

So your protecting Human Rights by denying them? Straight up hypocrisy imho.

Bannasidhe

ice man75 wrote: »

Do you have proof the mosques haven't been infiltrated? I doubt the preach hate out in the open it's usually cloak and dagger kinda stuff...

And as a moderator are you not supposed to be in the back ground so to speak instead of giving your opinion on topics. I'm not saying you can't have your say but maybe it should be done as a member and not someone in power as it looks bias

Do you have any proof they have been?

All I am reading in your posts is conjecture without one shred of verifiable evidence.

As for MOD 'power' - seriously, do you think posters here cannot distinguish between a personal opinion and a MOD warning? Why should MODs not be allowed to express an opinion as long as they too abide by the forum charter?

K-9

ice man75 wrote: »

Do you have proof the mosques haven't been infiltrated? I doubt the preach hate out in the open it's usually cloak and dagger kinda stuff...

And as a moderator are you not supposed to be in the back ground so to speak instead of giving your opinion on topics. I'm not saying you can't have your say but maybe it should be done as a member and not someone in power as it looks bias

Any future concerns about modding pm me, we are entitled to give our opinions, I hadn't up to the warning, now that I have entered the discussion I wont be modding the thread.

Anyway, I asked a question, you answered it with another one which suggests you don't know either. To me the possibility of something isn't enough to stop building a new mosque. I'm sure special branch are monitoring stuff like this, that's their job.

BluntGuy

ice man75 wrote: »

Do you have proof the mosques haven't been infiltrated? I doubt the preach hate out in the open it's usually cloak and dagger kinda stuff...

So the starting assumption according to you is that the mosques have been infiltrated? I think the burden of proof actually lies on you to demonstrate how and why this mosque has been, or will be held to the whim of people promoting terrorism.

Bannasidhe

SeanW wrote: »

It's a legitimate concern - for example the Finsbury Park Mosque was a terrorist recruitment centre while Abu Hamza was in charge, many other mosques are funded/run by Wahabbists and are little better.

We should be sure there is no Saudi/Wahabbist involvement with this thing before letting it be built IMHO.

By the same token should the UK prohibit the building of 'Irish' centers given the decades of 'Irish' terrorism across the UK and the fact that dissident Republicanism hasn't gone away?

How do they know that these 'Irish' centers are not breeding grounds for the next generation of kidnappers, bank robbers and cowardly bombers i.e. Fundamentalist Republicans?

Should they simply decide to tar all Irish people with the same brush and adopt a 'better safe than sorry' approach even when the evidence demonstrates that the vast majority of Irish people do not support 'our' political fundamentalists just as the vast majority of Muslims do not support 'their' religious fundamentalists?

Bannasidhe

MrD012 wrote: »

As we've seen with Islam all around the world human rights is certainly not to the forefront of its teachings especially in relation to its women , therefore if you discourage it, you would actually be protecting human rights.

Have you ever actually met a Muslim woman?

ice man75

old hippy wrote: »

London was home grown terrorism, we have had some of that in Ireland for decades and decades. The dizzies haven't gone away, you know.

9/11 wasnt home grown

dizzies? If this is a new was to say dissidents
Your righty they havent gone away sure there was a funeral here for one just a couple of weeks ago.

old hippy

ice man75 wrote: »

9/11 wasnt home grown

dizzies? If this is a new was to say dissidents
Your righty they havent gone away sure there was a funeral here for one just a couple of weeks ago.

September 11th was perpetrated by mostly Saudi nationals, that's true. But somehow I find it entirely unlikely some dotty Saudis would wish to fly a couple of planes into Liberty Hall. Don't you?

Anyways, tell us more about these mosques that have been infiltrated and/or soon to be infiltrated.

Bannasidhe

ice man75 wrote: »

9/11 wasnt home grown

dizzies? If this is a new was to say dissidents
Your righty they havent gone away sure there was a funeral here for one just a couple of weeks ago.

9/11 also happened in the US and was a direct result of US foreign policy.

The bombings in the UK happened on 7th July 2005 - and yes - they were 'home grown'.

Muslims died in both just as Irish people died in PIRA/RIRA bombs.

ice man75

BluntGuy wrote: »

So the starting assumption according to you is that the mosques have been infiltrated? I think the burden of proof actually lies on you to demonstrate how and why this mosque has been, or will be held to the whim of people promoting terrorism.

Where did I say the mosques have been infiltrated? I asked a question for proof big diffrence blunt guy
And please dont assume you know what my view point is on the subject.

ice man75

old hippy wrote: »

September 11th was perpetrated by mostly Saudi nationals, that's true. But somehow I find it entirely unlikely some dotty Saudis would wish to fly a couple of planes into Liberty Hall. Don't you?

Anyways, tell us more about these mosques that have been infiltrated and/or soon to be infiltrated.

Old hippy I refear you to my reply to blunt guy ie i didnt state antwhere that mosques have been infiltrated i asked a question for proof to the contary

Bannasidhe

ice man75 wrote: »

Do you have proof the mosques haven't been infiltrated? I doubt the preach hate out in the open it's usually cloak and dagger kinda stuff...

ice man75 wrote: »

Where did I say the mosques have been infiltrated? I asked a question for proof big diffrence blunt guy
And please dont assume you know what my view point is on the subject.

You certainly implied it.

MrD012

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You certainly implied it.

well it hasn't been disproved

remember the diplomatic cable released by WikiLeaks, that the clonskeagh mosque is dominated by groups such as the Muslim Brotherhood.

ice man75

Bannasidhe wrote: »

9/11 also happened in the US and was a direct result of US foreign policy.

The bombings in the UK happened on 7th July 2005 - and yes - they were 'home grown'.

Muslims died in both just as Irish people died in PIRA/RIRA bombs.

was it the only reason for 9/11

yes we all know the london bombings were home grown

and yes i knew that muslims died in both i dont see your point on this one?

Bannasidhe

ice man75 wrote: »

was it the only reason for 9/11

yes we all know the london bombings were home grown

and yes i knew that muslims died in both i dont see your point on this one?

You are now asking for 'proof' - really? I'll show you mine when you show me yours...

My point is that although fundamentalists espouse a certain 'cause' - be that religious/political/whatever - where they claim to be acting on behalf of their 'compatriots', in reality they have no issue with murdering their compatriots for the 'cause'.
Just as the majority of Irish people recognised this and did not support the actions of fundamentalist republicans so the vast majority of Muslims also recognise this and equally want nothing to do with their fundamentalists.

ice man75

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you have any proof they have been?

All I am reading in your posts is conjecture without one shred of verifiable evidence.

As for MOD 'power' - seriously, do you think posters here cannot distinguish between a personal opinion and a MOD warning? Why should MODs not be allowed to express an opinion as long as they too abide by the forum charter?

Bannasidhe i asked a question i didnt imply anything that was your choice on how to take my question. So now I have to answer for the way people take me up?

So I assume you are talking about my posts on phase 2 & 3 of this topic.
So im to loose my job just to keep you informed.

And I think the MOD should be impartial and profesional.

And as i live in clongriffin this will affect me more than people who dont.

MrD012

ice man75 wrote: »

And as i live in clongriffin this will affect me more than people who dont.

so true , it tends to be the people who won't be impacted by the mosque who are dictating to others what type of society they should live in .

Frank Grimes

I mentioned a CSO report yesterday in this post - it was published earlier and gives a breakdown, by region, of religious identification. The total number of Muslims (or people identifying as such at least) at the time of the 2011 census was:

CSO wrote:

2011
Muslim (Islamic)
Dublin
Both sexes
All ages 25,471

That figure, and others, can be generated via this link for anyone who is interested.

MrD012

Frank Grimes wrote: »

The total number of Muslims (or people identifying as such at least) at the time of the 2011 census was:

thanks for that , and if you add in the undocumented muslims to that figure you could be talking about another 10 000 .

Nodin

MrD012 wrote: »

yes but thats hearsay - somebody told me something so it must be true , all of the factual evidence suggests otherwise and its not just to do with radical elements , it has to do with integration issues such as an unwillingness to abide by domestic laws and choose shariah laws instead.

Would you care to address the issues raised by your own claims?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81274232&postcount=460

Bannasidhe

ice man75 wrote: »

Bannasidhe i asked a question i didnt imply anything that was your choice on how to take my question. So now I have to answer for the way people take me up?

So I assume you are talking about my posts on phase 2 & 3 of this topic.
So im to loose my job just to keep you informed.

And I think the MOD should be impartial and profesional.

And as i live in clongriffin this will affect me more than people who dont.

I am responding to this:

Originally Posted by ice man75
Do you have proof the mosques haven't been infiltrated? I doubt the preach hate out in the open it's usually cloak and dagger kinda stuff...

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask a poster who has implied a connection between a particular (and in this case unbuilt) mosque and Islamic fundamentalism to provide some evidence for this.
It's not about keeping me informed - it's about you making a tenuous and unsubstantiated claim and being asked to provide some - any - evidence. I just happened to be to be one of the people who responded asking for proof.

Why backing up THIS claim cause you to lose your job?

I have no problem with anyone objecting to a building on the grounds of impact on traffic, local infrastructure etc - I do have a problem when vague, and frankly sectarian, allegations are being used to justify - or are the only reason - for the objections.

Would you object if this was an Evangelical Christian 'super' chapel or a Mormon 'super' temple?

Frank Grimes

MrD012 wrote: »

thanks for that , and if you add in the undocumented muslims to that figure you could be talking about another 10 000 .

Yeah, or you could be talking about another 10. That's why I prefer to stick with something verifiable rather than speculation. Unless, of course, you have something to back this up with.

ice man75

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You are now asking for 'proof' - really? I'll show you mine when you show me yours...

My point is that although fundamentalists espouse a certain 'cause' - be that religious/political/whatever - where they claim to be acting on behalf of their 'compatriots', in reality they have no issue with murdering their compatriots for the 'cause'.
Just as the majority of Irish people recognised this and did not support the actions of fundamentalist republicans so the vast majority of Muslims also recognise this and equally want nothing to do with their fundamentalists.

My point is you and others on this forum have assumed I'm against this for religious reasons.

I'm against the size of it & all other non religious aspects of it as it will impact on my daily life .

Bannasidhe

ice man75 wrote: »

My point is you and others on this forum have assumed I'm against this for religious reasons.

I'm against the size of it & all other non religious aspects of it as it will impact on my daily life .

I thought no such thing until you made an implied claim about extremists.

studiorat

Does anyone know exactly who is paying for this mosque and school?

And does anyone else have issues about foreign governments funding education of children in this country?

MrD012

studiorat wrote: »

Does anyone know exactly who is paying for this mosque and school?

good question , I have already posted a list of the Directors involved with the Dublin Company (Dublin Welfare Society) . I'm not certain , maybe someone here would know , but they sound like Bangladeshi names.

ice man75

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I thought no such thing until you made an implied claim about extremists.

What did I imply through my question? and I all ready replied to you about it so why do you keep bringing it up ?

Bannasidhe

studiorat wrote: »

Does anyone know exactly who is paying for this mosque and school?

And does anyone else have issues about foreign governments funding education of children in this country?

Yes- I really object to an absolutist State having a say in how our children are educated and indoctrinating them into a specific religion. But enough about the Vatican...

MrD012

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yes- I really object to an absolutist State having a say in how our children are educated and indoctrinating them into a specific religion. But enough about the Vatican...

and what about the Blue Star Programme

golden lane

RMD wrote: »

Personally I'd like to see them build it just to piss off xenophobes and islamophobes. Islam will never be a force in Ireland, even the RC church who once had a strangle hold on Ireland is nowadays a non-existent force in Irish life.

the rc clergy were certainly a strong influence in ireland......and except for few places, that is all it was.....

islam's aim, is to become the law........law that affects every person in the country.....

it classes female as second class citizens......

and, by it's creed.....it declares non muslims as enemey's.........

maybe, just a building by a roundabout...?

Nodin

MrD012 wrote: »

and what about the Blue Star Programme

What about it? I'm reasonablt sure that its nothing to do with either religion or planning permission for a mosque.

Would you care to answer the questions I put to you earlier?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81274232&postcount=460

Bannasidhe

MrD012 wrote: »

and what about the Blue Star Programme

Are you referring to Project Bluestar http://projectbluestar.com/wpmu/?

What about it?

Nodin

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Are you referring to Project Bluestar http://projectbluestar.com/wpmu/?

What about it?

I'd say its this......
http://www.schooldays.ie/education-news-item/EU-teaching-launched-through-Blue-Star-Programme-801288122

Bannasidhe

golden lane wrote: »

the rc clergy were certainly a strong influence in ireland......and except for few places, that is all it was.....

islam's aim, is to become the law........law that affects every person in the country.....

it classes female as second class citizens......

and, by it's creed.....it declares non muslims as enemey's.........

maybe, just a building by a roundabout...?

The RCC not only classes women as second class citizens - it 'credits' us with the introduction of sin into the world, it tries to control how we use our bodies, it placed us in institutions and used us for slave labour, it stole our children. :mad:

To say the RCC's role in Irish society and impact on our civil liberties was ' a strong influence in ireland...... that is all it was.' is to ignore decades of abuse where the civil authorities were so cowered by the power and influance of the RCC that they were able to get off scot free.

The RCC still controls 93% of our primary schools -that cannot be dismissed as 'a strong influence' - it is domination of our very system of education in those vital early years.

Bannasidhe

ice man75 wrote: »

What did I imply through my question? and I all ready replied to you about it so why do you keep bringing it up ?

Because it was one of those 'so when did you stop beating your wife?' questions and it allied you with the anti-Muslim brigade - or have you not noticed who is thanking your posts?

Bannasidhe

Nodin wrote: »

I'd say its this......
http://www.schooldays.ie/education-news-item/EU-teaching-launched-through-Blue-Star-Programme-801288122

Oh- ok.

What the hell does that have to do with religious indoctrination in schools?

The mind boggles...