Plan to build $84 million Super Mosque in Dublin Ireland.

MrD012

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Please explain to me why on earth Muslims would leave predominately Muslim countries (where, presumably, there are lots of mosques) and head to Ireland on the basis that someone is building another mosque here? Clongriffen isn't that special.

better standard of living , more money . the majority of muslims who come to Ireland at present are from relatively poverished areas of Asia & Africa , some use the relative rule , some use the arranged marriage route , some use education and others use the asylum route.

Benny_Cake

Bannasidhe wrote: »

There is no conflict - Civil Law always takes precedence.

Why are you singling out Muslims btw - it has been shown to you that Jews have exactly the same sort of Councils - do these not cause conflict with domestic law?

Many Christian churches also have procedures in relation to dissolving church marriages. It is completely voluntary and in no way conflicts with civil law.

wes

MrD012 wrote: »

of course it does , sharia will be practiced here just like it is in the UK , causing much conflict with domestic law.

Again, the UK system has been there for a century. Its not unique to Muslims either, as has been pointed out several times, facts you seem intent on ignoring.

Secondly the UK system doesn't conflict with there law, as the courts be they Beth Din, Sharia or whatever, can't violate the law of the land. There private arbitration, dressed up in Religous clothing basically.

Simply put, your using as an example a system that has existed for a century in the UK, as a reason to not build a Mosque in North Dublin. Your example is entirely irrelevant, and is just the latest in a long list of desperate grasping at staws.

BTW, your examples from the UK, aren't exactly relevant, as the make up of the Muslim population over here and over there are rather different. In the UK there Muslims are largely from there former colonies. Over here is a rather different story. You have decided that Muslims are one undifferentiate homgenous groups and nothing more.

walshb

Bannasidhe wrote: »

There is no conflict - Civil Law always takes precedence.

Yes, as it should. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't cause conflict. It can, and it has. That is a problem.

Benny_Cake

MrD012 wrote: »

better standard of living , more money . the majority of muslims who come to Ireland at present are from relatively poverished areas of Asia & Africa , some use the relative rule , some use the arranged marriage route , some use education and others use the asylum route.

What has any of that got to do with whether a mosque is built in Clongriffen or not?

MrD012

Bannasidhe wrote: »

There is no conflict - Civil Law always takes precedence.

In mainstream society it does but not within Islamic communities. There are a number of reasons for this , the main reason being fear , fear of being outcast by their community.

please take some time to inform yourself on the issues . Here is a link to a report commissioned by one law for all , a uk organisation on shariah in britain.

http://www.onelawforall.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/New-Report-Sharia-Law-in-Britain_fixed.pdf

Bannasidhe

MrD012 wrote: »

better standard of living , more money . the majority of muslims who come to Ireland at present are from relatively poverished areas of Asia & Africa , some use the relative rule , some use the arranged marriage route , some use education and others use the asylum route.

Ditto for Christians - what's your point?

irishconvert

MrD012 wrote: »

In mainstream society it does but not within Islamic communities. There are a number of reasons for this , the main reason being fear , fear of being outcast by their community.

please take some time to inform yourself on the issues . Here is a link to a report commissioned by one law for all , a uk organisation on shariah in britain.

http://www.onelawforall.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/New-Report-Sharia-Law-in-Britain_fixed.pdf

Who are One law for all? Sounds like their opinion might be a little one sided????

Bannasidhe

walshb wrote: »

Yes, as it should. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't cause conflict. It can, and it has. That is a problem.

As I already pointed out - Canon Law and it's application regarding clerical child abuse brought the church into conflict with domestic law. Should we therefore prevent any more RCC churches being built?

wes

irishconvert wrote: »

Who are One law for all? Sounds like their opinion might be a little one sided????

Whethere one sided or not. I fail to see the relevance to a Mosque being built in North Dublin either way......

Bannasidhe

MrD012 wrote: »

In mainstream society it does but not within Islamic communities. There are a number of reasons for this , the main reason being fear , fear of being outcast by their community.

please take some time to inform yourself on the issues . Here is a link to a report commissioned by one law for all , a uk organisation on shariah in britain.

http://www.onelawforall.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/New-Report-Sharia-Law-in-Britain_fixed.pdf

We do not live in a Muslim country and building another Mosque will not make us a Muslim country and more than building another IKEA would make us Swedish.

walshb

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As I already pointed out - Canon Law and it's application regarding clerical child abuse brought the church into conflict with domestic law. Should we therefore prevent any more RCC churches being built?

Yes. Makes perfect sense that suggestion!

Like I said, we have had centuries of catholic religious nonsense. Now we are bracing ourselves for imported stuff.

Scofflaw

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We do not live in a Muslim country and building another Mosque will not make us a Muslim country and more than building another IKEA would make us Swedish.

Pity, really - then we'd be Swedish and have another IKEA...

treacherously,
Scofflaw

Bannasidhe

walshb wrote: »

Yes. Makes perfect sense that suggestion!

Like I said, we have had centuries of catholic religious nonsense. Now we are bracing ourselves for imported stuff.

Which is an argument for complete separation of church (or more properly all religious influence) and State and the secularisation of Irish society. It is not an argument against building a mosque.

Bannasidhe

Scofflaw wrote: »

Pity, really - then we'd be Swedish and have another IKEA...

treacherously,
Scofflaw

Wouldn't that be loverly

MrD012

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We do not live in a Muslim country and building another Mosque will not make us a Muslim country and more than building another IKEA would make us Swedish.

please , if can you just have a read to the end of the report I linked to . You will then be able to see clearer the issues involved.

I don't object to a supermosque itself, but I don't think Clongriffin is the place to put it. Clongriffin is effectively in the middle of nowhere, with nothing else to it. Too easy to make it "de mozzleman place" and have it become a ghetto or look like "a bit of a forrin cuntry", ripe for some racists to get at "them forriners"

wes

MrD012 wrote: »

please , if can you just have a read to the end of the report I linked to . You will then be able to see clearer the issues involved.

A report that almost completely ignores the other religous arbitration courts. That report......

Either way, I fail to see how a century old system in the UK, has any relevance on a Mosque being built in North Dublin. In fact its the latest batch of desperate whataboutery you have come up with. The system was not set up by Muslims, and predates the arrival of the vast majortity of the UKs Muslims as well. So Muslims are hardly responsible for the existence of the system as well. So again, what is the relevance exactly? You have yet to show any, and are just repeating the same thing over and over again.

Bannasidhe

MrD012 wrote: »

please , if can you just have a read to the end of the report I linked to . You will then be able to see clearer the issues involved.

Why is Sharia Law - which I have no time for btw- any more of a threat to our civil liberties than Orthodox Jewish Law (with which it bares many many similarities) or Canon Law?

philologos

Nodin wrote: »

MrD012 wrote: »

how about the Guardian Newspaper

shariah law religious courts

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2010/jul/05/sharia-law-religious-courts

Theres also Jewish religous courts. Both are a bad idea. Neither can counter established law though.

You still haven't explained the link between the mosque and immigration.

What's bad about people consensually deciding to consult their religious leaders during disputes?

That's up to them. If I was having a dispute with another person I'd consult my pastor or try to arrange a meeting.

There's nothing really wrong with that choice.

MrD012

philologos wrote: »

What's bad about people consensually deciding to consult their religious leaders during disputes?

Please read the report I linked to earlier , it will clear things up regarding such matters. there are discrimination issues involved .

Bannasidhe

MrD012 wrote: »

Please read the report I linked to earlier , it will clear things up regarding such matters. there are discrimination issues involved .

No one here is defending Sharia Law - what we are questioning is that you are ignoring the fact that such councils you describe exist within other religious communities yet you are not addressing this at all.

Godge

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why is Sharia Law - which I have no time for btw- any more of a threat to our civil liberties than Orthodox Jewish Law (with which it bares many many similarities) or Canon Law?

I agree with you.

Canon Law has caused so much damage to this country in the way that it was twisted to allow the Roman Catholic Church to shelter child abusers.

We would be better off ensuring our domestic law prevents that happening again. If we focussed on that known clear breach of civil law and designed remedies to prevent a repeat, the remote possibility that concerns the OP would also be covered. Let us deal with the problems of the churches we have already.

wes

MrD012 wrote: »

Please read the report I linked to earlier , it will clear things up regarding such matters. there are discrimination issues involved .

Still has no bearing on a Mosque in North Dublin, one way or another......

augustus gloop

lagente wrote: »

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Plan-to-build-84-million-Islamic-center-in-Dublin-to-host-40000-Muslims-in-the-city-172632091.html#ixzz28drMaw1L

I personally object to this and I hope we quickly quash the argument that this will lead to creation of new jobs and investment, because the long term ramifications of this are large. We would not be allowed to even spread other religion on the street in many of the countries where the people are from, let alone build a cultural center for it. It is because of this religion that 9 year old girls can be married, and had sex with in countries like Saudi Arabia, beheadings of gays, etc. Islam has branches that are still stuck in the Middle Ages and worse, I'm not even going to argue on that point, and I think we should take active steps against it being built. There has been enough suffering due to unchecked religion here already.

i can only assume your RC like me, and for you, as a catholic from this country to come out with such a broad sweeping comdemnation of muslims is amazing after the past 10 years of revelations in the church here. Maybe your not religious at all, again i dont know, but your beliefs spund like something from the moronic part of USA, ie. most of it.

youve been watching too much homeland

old hippy

MrD012 wrote: »

of course it does , sharia will be practiced here just like it is in the UK , causing much conflict with domestic law.

Where is Sharia practiced here in the UK - I certainly don't see much conflict here.

MrD012

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No one here is defending Sharia Law - what we are questioning is that you are ignoring the fact that such councils you describe exist within other religious communities yet you are not addressing this at all.

which other religious law that you know states that a marriage contract is between a woman's "Guardian" and her husband .

JustinDee

irishconvert wrote: »

Who are One law for all? Sounds like their opinion might be a little one sided????

They're part of a wider athiestic movement headed by the likes of Maryam Namazie and Richard Dawkins. This particular branch focuses on Sharia Law.

Unfortunately certain folk of a certain mindset tend to hijack some of their quite salient points then subjectively bend and blend with their own pro-agendaic diatribe.

old hippy

MrD012 wrote: »

I'm saying that we do not want to repeat the mistakes the UK has made by allowing an uncontrolled migration of Islamic settlers .

What mistakes, christmas?

It is you, isn't it? Spreading mistruths, rumours and hysteria, as per usual :rolleyes:

MrD012

augustus gloop wrote: »

i can only assume your RC like me, and for you, as a catholic from this country to come out with such a broad sweeping comdemnation of muslims

nobody is condemning anyone . we are merely pointing out the problems that exist in the UK . real life issues affecting another society which we can study and learn from.

philologos

MrD012 wrote: »

philologos wrote: »

What's bad about people consensually deciding to consult their religious leaders during disputes?

Please read the report I linked to earlier , it will clear things up regarding such matters. there are discrimination issues involved .

It's their choice to go to the imam or to their rabbi or to their priest / pastor. Honestly it doesn't affect me if people want to settle their disputes as Jews, Muslims or Christians. There are far more important things to worry about in the world other than people deciding how they want to settle their own problems.

old hippy

MrD012 wrote: »

nobody is condemning anyone . we are merely pointing out the problems that exist in the UK . real life issues affecting another society which we can study and learn from.

What problems, christmas?

JustinDee

MrD012 wrote: »

but its not pre-conceived or even obscene, its factual , all of the links I posted are fact , you can choose to ignore them but you are doing yourself no favours by burying your head in the sand.

It is pre-conceived and most definitely obscene if you wish to apply a blanket application upon an entire religious demograph, even if they fulfill criteria to become resident or citizens in this country.
Might have worked temporarily for Idi Amin in the 70s or Australia in the late 60s with her White Australia Policy. Don't think its quite the done thing these days in a allegedly civilised country as the Republic of Ireland.
Ever thought of a job with Border Control in Queensland? lol

SeanW

Godge wrote: »

Did the terrorist organisation the IRA ever have six per cent support of Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland who insisted their bombings were fully justified? I would think so, maybe not at all times but certainly most of the last 30 years the hardcore support for IRA was higher than six per cent up there among Roman Catholics. Furthermore, the general support was probably higher than the 24% you quote.

As well as that, how many Roman Catholic priests over the last 80 years gave shelter and succour to those terrorists, particularly in rural areas, offering safe houses? How many of those priests, spoke out of both sides of their mouth, effectively condoning what these men did?

To use a Christian metaphor, we should look to our own sins before casting stones or the atheist version, those in glasshouses......

Doesn't mean we should repeat the same mistakes ...

MrD012

philologos wrote: »

Honestly it doesn't affect me if people want to settle their disputes as Jews, Muslims or Christians.

No , it may not affect you but the practice of shariah is affecting many muslim women in the UK . Muslim women who are so desperate for help they are turning to the BNP !!

Bannasidhe

MrD012 wrote: »

which other religious law that you know states that a marriage contract is between a woman's "Guardian" and her husband .

You should perhaps do some research into Orthodox Jewish laws around marriage. While you are there you might also research 'conflicts' between the Hasidic community and the civil authorities.

Here's a link to get you started http://abcnews.go.com/Health/hasidic-jew-runs-orthodox-roots-arranged-marriage-child/story?id=15540395#.UHRVVxVJOAg

When you have finished and realised the similarities perhaps you will answer my question as to whether we should also object to Jews building synagogue and 'settling' here?

BTW- where do you think the tradition of the Bride's father 'giving her away' comes from?

JustinDee

MrD012 wrote: »

No , it may not affect you but the practice of shariah is affecting many muslim women in the UK . Muslim women who are so desperate for help they are turning to the BNP !!

Don't tell me, you read that in the Daily Telegraph or Daily Mail? BNP website?

Bannasidhe

MrD012 wrote: »

No , it may not affect you but the practice of shariah is affecting many muslim women in the UK . Muslim women who are so desperate for help they are turning to the BNP !!

Link?

MrD012

JustinDee wrote: »

Don't think its quite the done thing these days in a allegedly civilised country as the Republic of Ireland.
Ever thought of a job with Border Control in Queensland? lol

Is it civilised to rule against human beings because of their gender , just because they are muslim women , they somehow have less rights than their husband. well as the one law for all report states , this is a regular occurance in shariah council rulings

old hippy

MrD012 wrote: »

No , it may not affect you but the practice of shariah is affecting many muslim women in the UK . Muslim women who are so desperate for help they are turning to the BNP !!

More lies from christmas2012 :rolleyes:

[MOD]Please don't either assume a poster is a re-reg or accuse them of lying unless you're in a position to prove such assertions definitively.[/MOD]

JustinDee

MrD012 wrote: »

Is it civilised to rule against human beings because of their gender , just because they are muslim women , they somehow have less rights than their husband. well as the one law for all report states , this is a regular occurance in shariah council rulings

Of course its not. Nor is it civilised to presume without foundation save for carefully cherry-picked snippets that cover a mere fraction of what goes on.

Ironically you're already "ruling against" muslim women yourself on account of being . . . muslim women.

If someone fulfills criteria to enter the country and reside in it, then these criteria apply to all. Not just a particular bunch that irks.

junder

Madam wrote: »

junder wrote: »

I read a report a while ago that said the highest conversion rate to Islam is amoung Roman Catholics ( this is Roman Catholics in general and not specific to the republic if Ireland).

Are these the ones who like to be told what to do from morning to night, what to eat(when and where) etc. Replacing one extreme for another imo:(

Btw I'm not against Mosque's being built anywhere - just don't go along with the whole religion thing(no matter what faith you follow).

Wasn't really that specific, just was a side note, who knows why Roman Catholics in perticuler seem to be more attracted to Islam then other faiths?

MrD012

JustinDee wrote: »

If someone fulfills criteria to enter the country and reside in it, then these criteria apply to all.

but something needs to change if we want to protect Irish Society from the widespread and well documented damage we've seen in the UK .

ressem

Isn't 'super mosque' deliberately over the top?

5573 Sqm, if it was all for the mosque would put it at cathedral size.
But it isn't. It has a load of associated premises attached. E.g a creche for worshippers. Catering for 2-3 thousand people at a time.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/commercialproperty/2012/0516/1224316188527.html

Apparently in May it was costed at €40 million. Did the dollars price come from the same excitable source that added the 'super'?

http://www.dublincity.ie/ Planning Reference 3325/12 wrote:

New development on lands at Panhandle Park, Clongriffin, Dublin 13 comprising (a) a 3-storey domed mosque and cultural centre (5573sqm) which includes main prayer hall, prayer rooms, meeting rooms, general purpose room, administrative offices, 1 ground floor 1-bed apartment, créche, bookshop, library, mortuary, ancillary accommodation and two minarets which is linked to: (b) a 2-storey conference centre (2849sqm) which includes reception foyer, 600-seat conference room, 130 seat restaurant, 200-seat single-storey banquet hall, kitchens and ancillary accommodation; (c) a 2 to 3-storey 16-classroom primary school and a 2 to 3-storey 12-classroom secondary school, each with its own administrative and ancillary accommodation. shared multi-use community hall, storage, ancillary accommodation and plant (total area 6809sqm), outdoor play space and ball courts; (d) a 2-storey fitness centre (1392sqm) which includes a 25m indoor swimming pool, gym, sauna, steam room, administrative and ancillary accommodation, plant; (e) a 3-storey block of 6 no. 2-bed apartments with balconies on the south and west elevations; and (f) a 4-storey block of 2 no. 1-bed apartments, 5 no. 2-bed apartments with balconies on the east and south elevations, and ground floor shop (231sqm). The development is accessed from Main Street, Park Avenue and Marshfield Avenue Clongriffin via the internal road network and includes 192 surface car parking spaces, 221 bicycle parking spaces, landscaped gardens and all associated and ancillary site works.

JustinDee

MrD012 wrote: »

but something needs to change if we want to protect Irish Society from the widespread and well documented damage we've seen in the UK .

What needs to change is people's attitudes towards people different to themselves.
I illustrated earlier when referring to the shameful treatment of Jewish refugees here during the Second World War. It seems nothing has changed in that respect either now has it?

Benny_Cake

MrD012 wrote: »

No , it may not affect you but the practice of shariah is affecting many muslim women in the UK . Muslim women who are so desperate for help they are turning to the BNP !!

A source for this?

If true, I'd imagine it's every bit as sincere and well-meant as their stand on animal rights which has resulted in them picketing outlets selling halal meat. :rolleyes:

Tordelback

People with bizarre beliefs want to build a big religious building in Ireland. It was ever thus, from Newgrange to Glendalough to Christchurch to Knock. Sure we'll have a preservation order on the place and its own slot on the Failte commercial before you know it.

Still, at least I got to read lengthy rants from Alf Garnet's duller cousin, so my day hasn't been a complete waste. I think my favourite bit was about the imminent threat of mild disruption to other children's music lessons during Ramadan.

Chuck Stone

old hippy wrote: »

I lived across the road from a mosque for 7 years and the only point of contention? Parking spaces. The horror. :eek::eek::eek:

That's how it starts though. One day it's about parking spaces and the next the Muslamic infidels are trying to bring the Iraqi law down on us.

I don't think that a lot of people understand that many Muslims like to live in western countries because of our relative freedom - they like it too.

Mucco

MrD012 wrote: »

but something needs to change if we want to protect Irish Society from the widespread and well documented damage we've seen in the UK .

What damage is that, I can't say I've noticed? For info, I live in Tower Hamlets, which is ~36% muslim.

M

Will this be a Sunni mosque or a Shiite mosque.
and who is paying for it.? Saudi Arabia?

If so, I propose we allow it when Saudi Arabia allows basic freedoms within its own territory.