Plan to build $84 million Super Mosque in Dublin Ireland.

wes

SeanW wrote: »

I wonder where the nearest branch of the Westboro Baptist Church is ...

Plenty of Baptist churches in Ireland:
http://www.baptistireland.org/

So by your logic, we should be worried about them right? Sure, there not like the Westboro bunch at all, but its not like that kind of thing matters apparently.....

**EDIT**
Also, wasn't there some guy in Norway, who banged on about the multi cult and the left, and about them damn Muslims. Hmmm, maybe we should be worried about people like that here as well . In fact there were there is also a similar group in the UK, who like to chant "****ing P****" and engage in violent protests on a semi regular basis:
English Defence League: Inside the violent world of Britain's new far right

Not to mention open support for a convicted terrorists (some guy in Norway) from these sorts:
British far-right extremists voice support for Anders Breivik

joncon45

This is a free and civilized country and people of all religions should be made welcome and be allowed to built whatever our planning laws allow...I am not a Muslim or a Catholic for that matter,but I have been to the Mosque in Clonskeagh on many an occasion for lunch and always found everybody there extremely friendly and helpful,so I welcome the super Mosque (insch,allah)

Bannasidhe

SeanW wrote: »

I wonder where the nearest branch of the Westboro Baptist Church is ...

Like only Westboro behave like that...if only.

The nearest branch of the Roman Catholic Church is less than half a mile away and their supreme,supposedly infallible, ruler says if I am allowed to marry my partner it will be a threat to humanity.

Memnoch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Like only Westboro behave like that...if only.

The nearest branch of the Roman Catholic Church is less than half a mile away and their supreme,supposedly infallible, ruler says if I am allowed to marry my partner it will be a threat to humanity.

Isn't that the same organisation that preaches that condoms have small hole in them that can allow the aids virus to slip through?

RandomName2

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The countries where these people are from? Oh dear, oh dear.

Hmm. Broad strokes in political discussions are generally a bad idea - but let's say countries where the offical religion is Islam. Notwithstanding that there are a good deal of countries that are predominantly Muslim which are secular, in countries which are not the promotion of Christianity tends to be significantly curtailed.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Old school friend of mine is Muslim - she's Cork born and bred. Can't say I have noticed many beheadings in Patrick St but I'll keep an eye out just in case.

Or two Muslim's I recently met in Spain. They're English. Not in a born in England way but in an actual Anglo-Saxon with a drop of Norman way. Has there been an outbreak of beheadings in England??? No mention of it on Sky News...

So are you talking about people who have converted to Islam?

As for beheadings, one could point out the hundreds of placards in England which read out 'behead those who insult Islam' during the Danish cartoon incident but it would be a bit tangential to the argument... a bit like saying 'I recently met two Muslims in Spain who were Anglo-Saxon...'

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Of course Christianity doesn't have any branches that are stuck in the Middle Ages - even leaving aside the Amish who have maybe entered the 18th century by now - there are the lovely folks in the Westboro Baptist church. Charming people with their post-modernly ironic 'God Hates Fags' signs...

The irony is strong with this one.

Religion is full of nut-jobs, it doesn't really matter what the denomination is. Ireland of all countries should be aware that you should adopt the stance that people's religion is their own business and that religious institutions, and institutionalism, should both be kept at arms' length.

iopener

Religion starting rows again.when will learn? we just have to look back at the history of this small country nd even look up north to see what religious hardliners can do.I'm sick of this carry on.I wish we could start over again with no religions.this story Will just keep repeating itself ad noseum.

Bannasidhe

RandomName2 wrote: »

Hmm. Broad strokes in political discussions are generally a bad idea - but let's say countries where the offical religion is Islam. Notwithstanding that there are a good deal of countries that are predominantly Muslim which are secular, in countries which are not the promotion of Christianity tends to be significantly curtailed.



So are you talking about people who have converted to Islam?

As for beheadings, one could point out the hundreds of placards in England which read out 'behead those who insult Islam' during the Danish cartoon incident but it would be a bit tangential to the argument... a bit like saying 'I recently met two Muslims in Spain who were Anglo-Saxon...'



The irony is strong with this one.

Religion is full of nut-jobs, it doesn't really matter what the denomination is. Ireland of all countries should be aware that you should adopt the stance that people's religion is their own business and that religious institutions, and institutionalism, should both be kept at arms' length.

I'm not sure what your point is to be honest bar making an argument for secularisation and against generalisations - which given the level of anti-Muslim hyperbole employed by some posters (the ones I was responding to) I wonder why you chose to address this at me.

Speaking of tangents - care to state if you agree or disagree with the OP?

RandomName2

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'm not sure what your point is to be honest bar making an argument for secularisation and against generalisations - which given the level of anti-Muslim hyperbole employed by some posters (the ones I was responding to) I wonder why you chose to address this at me.

Speaking of tangents - care to state if you agree or disagree with the OP?

Insofar that I disagree with the creation of a super-mosque (I am assuming that an "Islamic centre" is a euphemism for such, as an institution which was let's say, studying Islam in an academic fashion would not be described specifically as "hosting 40,000 Muslims").

Immigration in this country is favourable - particularly when there are skill-sets, knowledge and experience which we are lacking. This is entirely separate from culture or creed. However, producing a building designed specifically to cultivate a religion that is not indigenous - nay not only that put provide it with an institutional cornerstone is not a wise idea. One could argue that it could attract Muslims who could benefit this country - but that is saying that such potential immigrants would put more stock in their faith than scientific or infrastructural developments in this country, which would not necessarily preclude them from the aforementioned skill-sets which we want to attract, but would certainly not favour it.

Moreover, we sit on a border of a country which has had decades of blood spilled over a small division in the respective communities' adoption of Christianity (Protestant VS Catholic) - hell it's largely the manner in which Ireland has identified itself from Britain the last several centuries and been used one of the primary bases for self-determination.

I have to wonder at myself and say 'would I feel somewhat different if it was a Buddhist or Janist "centre" which was planned? Quite frankly, yes. Whilst I don't champion any religion, I would be a hypocrite if I did not say that Islam has been... struggling... with Western views the last while. I wouldn't fancy publishing a picture of Muhammad in a country with a large percentage of Muslims for fear of my personal safety, for instance. Hell, when did you last hear of an atheist, Christian or Buddhist suicide bomber? And before you say, 'what's that got to do with an Islamic centre?' the answer is 'not much' - but then the average priest in Ireland nowadays has virtually nothing to do with the abuses orchestrated by the Church in this country, but that doesn't provide an argument as to reintroduction of industrial and reformatory schools.

Whilst everyone should be allowed pursue whatever faith they wish (provide it does not involve actively harming others) this is a separate issue from that of institutionalisation.

Scofflaw

"Suicide bombing" is hardly a religious activity, and "secular" or "Christian" suicide bombers have been recorded in exactly the same situations that give rise to "Muslim" ones. It's a form of asymmetric warfare, not an expression of religion.

See, for example: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/10/18/it_s_the_occupation_stupid

cordially,
Scofflaw

RandomName2

Scofflaw wrote: »

"Suicide bombing" is hardly a religious activity, and "secular" or "Christian" suicide bombers have been recorded in exactly the same situations that give rise to "Muslim" ones. It's a form of asymmetric warfare, not an expression of religion.

See, for example: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/10/18/it_s_the_occupation_stupid

cordially,
Scofflaw

No, it is almost exactly synonymous with a religious activity - it is the sincerest expression of faith. Whilst there is an argument to be said that it is generated by foreign occupation (a strategy adopted by the weaker, occupied opponent), and despite examples that spring to mind in Turkey, Iraq, India... I think the current examples in Syria are a more striking counterexample of how it has little to do with occupation. Bin Laden famously cited the American presence in Saudi Arabia as his reason for 9/11 - but I think we can both agree that that was more than slightly expedient on his part. Unfortunately, it is perhaps a bit too complicated a subject for this thread.

K-9

Indeed and we had proxy bombs as used by the IRA .

NTMK

RandomName2 wrote: »

Hell, when did you last hear of an atheist, Christian or Buddhist suicide bomber?

There was 2 bombings of abortion clinics by Christian nutters in the US this year so far for example.

but then the average priest in Ireland nowadays has virtually nothing to do with the abuses orchestrated by the Church in this country, but that doesn't provide an argument as to reintroduction of industrial and reformatory schools.

thats a bit of a different argument if these institutions were set up using private funds then no one should really care as long as everything is legal. very few would actually use them though.

As far as im concerned its a privately backed facility and as long as the backers aren't an extremist group i don't care

This whole Muhammed visualisation is so interesting there was none of these demonstrations pre 2001/2 because no one in the west gave a ****

when people started to become more and more islamophobic was when extremist groups grabbed this oppertuinity to spread their hate. because of the lack of information in most middle eastern and north African countries (**** all internet and open news). when **** like that video with the bile that can be seen on most comments on Islam gets into the hands of extremists its easy to see how people can be manipulated.

There is always going to be the same muppetry in western countries because well there's muppets everywhere, there are people who think the Warrington bombings were justified ffs

People seem to forget that vigils were held in Many Islamic countries after 9/11 and that Libyan civilians drove the extremists away from the embassy last month

if people were more concerned with their own lives and less about delusions about how the Muslims are out to get them most of these extremists will crawl back into the cesspools they came out off.

irishconvert

MrD012 wrote: »

but nobody is doing that , they are opposing the mosque after studying the UK society model and realising its not for them .

can the pro mosque side show me one report that details the benefits of Islam to western society ?

because if you cant do the above well then its just all hot air with no substance from your arguments.

Ok, now you are embarassing yourself.

Are you going to tell us how many times you have been to the UK? Why do you keep avoiding that question? Have you actually ever left the small town you live in?

MrD012 wrote: »

Do we really need this sort of thing right now, take a look at this Muslim protest in Dublin .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SggQhHdZ1Y&feature=youtu.be

A protest, ohhhaa gaaawwdd, I'm so scared, the big hairy beardy men are coming to take me away :rolleyes:

MrD012 wrote: »

It looked big enough to me , and the stuff they're chanting remind me what was it again ?

MrD012 wrote: »

what is it again they are chanting ?

God is greatest, down down America? Is it really surprising some of these lads have a problem with America as it is probably responsible for bombing some of their homelands back to the stone age.

Hey, do you remember the protest to the British Embassy in Dublin after the Bloody Sunday shootings? Can you tell us your view on what happened at that protest?

EDIT: Here ya go, a nice video report on what happened. What is your opinion of all those Irish extremists who took part in the protest?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00nm0l2

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/2/newsid_2758000/2758163.stm

Nodin

RandomName2 wrote: »

Insofar (...........)of institutionalisation.

You might come up with some evidence that a mosque of itself would encourage immigration. You might also bear in mind that you can't just walk into the country if you're from outside the EU - where, incidentally, most of the worlds muslim population resides.

And christianity isn't "indigenous" to Ireland either, I might add.

househero

We should be tolerant of other religions, and I feel much more strongly against racists then I do people who called God Allah.

For all its worth the Abrahamic religions, Jews, Christians and Muslims are very similar. The differences are tiny, just like the politically manufactured prodestants vs catholics blood shed.

We have had enough of racists in this country, there is no room for you, I would welcome a million foreign nationals to my country before I would befriend a racist. There are c units in every society and the op is one of them, drumming up hatred because of a self affirming racist view of our materialistically diverse world. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Fromthetrees

irishconvert wrote: »

God is greatest, down down America? Is it really surprising some of these lads have a problem with America as it is probably responsible for bombing some of their homelands back to the stone age.

Hey, do you remember the protest to the British Embassy in Dublin after the Bloody Sunday shootings? Can you tell us your view on what happened at that protest?

EDIT: Here ya go, a nice video report on what happened. What is your opinion of all those Irish extremists who took part in the protest?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00nm0l2

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/2/newsid_2758000/2758163.stm

How dare you equate Irish people in Dublin protesting the cold blooded murder of Irish people on the streets of Derry by the British army with a group of religious people protesting a ****ing poxy film about religion made half a world away.

Considering you think the protest in Dublin is because these people came from countries that were bombed back to the stone age by America is equally ridiculous considering most Muslim immigration into Ireland is not from Iraq, Afghanistan or north west Pakistan and this protest wasn't in any way about American foreign policy.



I have no problem with a Mosque being built. I do have a problem with religious based education though. Every school in Ireland should be expressly secular and to educate children through a holy book I think does children a grave disservice. I assume the 34 room classroom will be used to teach children the Koran outside of proper school hours which is quite obviously fine.

skD13

Fromthetrees wrote: »

I have no problem with a Mosque being built. I do have a problem with religious based education though. Every school in Ireland should be expressly secular and to educate children through a holy book I think does children a grave disservice. I assume the 34 room classroom will be used to teach children the Koran outside of proper school hours which is quite obviously fine.

With you on that. I am pro the centre going ahead but concerned about this school. I have a query gone in to the local Labour Councillor in the area to run it by his colleague in Marlborough St. I was concerned when I read of this in the UK:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/nov/22/bbc-panorama-islamic-schools-antisemitism?cat=media&type=article

So as I said, while I am for this development... I would not like to see and of the facilities hijacked by any kind of extremism or illegal behaviour. Religion cannot be allowed to subvert the state in education or any other way.

Of course, there is always a few hardliners. As Bloodwing pointed out earlier re. that march, on close viewing the majority of attendees did seem well behaved except for a small core who were shouting those chants. A minority of idiots can always shout loudest, in all walks of life .

philologos

I disagree on the faith schools side. Pointing out that there's bad faith schools doesn't prove anything. There are also bad secular schools in Britain. However a third of schools in Britain are faith schools. Parents as a result have a choice. I don't think that you really have the right to dictate what type of school people send their kids to. Choice is valid and acceptable in a pluralist society. Most faith schools do incredibly well here and perform above the average.

You might be an atheist but that doesn't give you the right to revoke the choice of other parents. I support choice for much the same reason as I support freedom of religion. What if it were you is always an excellent question to ask.

skD13

philologos wrote: »

I disagree on the faith schools side. Pointing out that there's bad faith schools doesn't prove anything. There are also bad secular schools in Britain. However a third of schools in Britain are faith schools. Parents as a result have a choice. I don't think that you really have the right to dictate what type of school people send their kids to. Choice is valid and acceptable in a pluralist society. Most faith schools do incredibly well here and perform above the average.

You might be an atheist but that doesn't give you the right to revoke the choice of other parents. I support choice for much the same reason as I support freedom of religion. What if it were you is always an excellent question to ask.

If that was directed at me phil then you may have misinterpreted what my concerns are. I didn't say I have a problem with faith schools really (although I'd prefer if we just had state schools who thought a little of all religions to let kids figure it out for themselves). I went to a faith school myself (Catholic) and the religion was really minimal. And what religion there was was pretty much ignored anyway. It was never really deemed an important subject from the perspective of exams etc.

My concerns over this school are probably unfounded but I am investigating anyway just in case. My concern is based on what was being thought in the a Muslim school in the UK based on that link I posted above. I also read somewhere else about creationism being taught in a Muslim school in the UK but I can't find the link. Anyway, I assume a Muslim school will teach the standard curriculum and then leave religion to religion class. And I assume the school will welcome other kids of all faiths and none without making them feel uncomfortable... like Catholic schools do etc. I also would assume the teaching jobs are open to non-Muslims.

All these assumptions I have asked a local politician for clarification on. Seems reasonable to me.

As I said, I live here, I welcome the development and I would like to see it progress in an inclusive fashion for the betterment of the entire community.

MrD012

I just want to make a quick point .

the pro-mosque side tend to be libertarians , people who believe that everyone is allowed to express their freedoms even if it offends others . So I decided to put their beliefs to the test . I wanted to see how far they would take this ideology and asked two libertarians a question .

I asked the first one should Neo Nazis be allowed to march down o connell street and he said he wouldn't have a problem with it , I asked him then about the KKK doing the same and he replied "as with all freedoms there are limitations" .

however I put the KKK question to the second Libertarian and he said yes the KKK should be allowed to march down o connell street provided they were not inciting violence.

therefore from this we see they are both clearly divided on the extent to which you allow someone freedoms , the point at which you say NO , enough is enough .

Therefore at what point do they say "NO" to Islamic culture beliefs , I mean do the say "No" to honour killings , do they say "NO" to child marriages , do they say "NO" to discrimination against women in shariah courts , I mean where is there cut off point ... ?

Fratton Fred

MrD012 wrote: »

but nobody is doing that , they are opposing the mosque after studying the UK society model and realising its not for them .

can the pro mosque side show me one report that details the benefits of Islam to western society ?

because if you cant do the above well then its just all hot air with no substance from your arguments.

what UK society model have you seen?

You've nevber lived in the UK, you've probably never even met a Muslim.

Who gives a **** whether or not Islam has any benefits to western society, this is about building a mosque, or are you now advocating banning an entire religion?

Ireland (well at least Dublin) is a modern multicultural society, it is right that there is a variety of places to practice their chosen faith.

I'm sorry, but your post just shows your true colours.

philologos

MrD012 - people should be free to march if they organise it with the police first, any organisation. People don't have the right not to be offended.

skD13

MrD012 wrote: »

I just want to make a quick point .

the pro-mosque side tend to be libertarians , people who believe that everyone is allowed to express their freedoms even if it offends others . So I decided to put their beliefs to the test . I wanted to see how far they would take this ideology and asked two libertarians a question .

I asked the first one should Neo Nazis be allowed to march down o connell street and he said he wouldn't have a problem with it , I asked him then about the KKK doing the same and he replied "as with all freedoms there are limitations" .

however I put the KKK question to the second Libertarian and he said yes the KKK should be allowed to march down o connell street provided they were not inciting violence.

therefore from this we see they are both clearly divided on the extent to which you allow someone freedoms , the point at which you say NO , enough is enough .

Therefore at what point do they say "NO" to Islamic culture beliefs , I mean do the say "No" to honour killings , do they say "NO" to child marriages , do they say "NO" to discrimination against women in shariah courts , I mean where is there cut off point ... ?

Hang on a second though. The KKK and neo-nazis are organisations whereby all of them are expressed racists. 100% of the KKK are what they are and what they claim to be, But 100% of Muslims are not hard-liners advocating honour killings and the rest of it. So you can't compare Islam to the KKK.

To be fair to you, MrD you have left many interesting links to articles in UK newspapers, and not just tabloids which I accept are worth considering. But this argument isn't working for me at all. And you are obsessed with the UK also. Why not focus on the Muslim community here in Ireland. Has there been any major problems with the similar facility in Clonskeagh since it opened in the mid 90s?

I do recall a Prime Time documentary a few years back tracking some extremists who attend the mosque. But on the same documentary there were many ordinary decent folk who happen to be Muslim saying a few prayers and denouncing extremists.

RandomName2

For the sake of clarity I was specifically talking about suicide bombing and not 'bombing'.

In the former the bomber deliberately kills himself; making no attempt whatsoever to survive; indeed using this type of martyrdom to improve his chances of taking down more people or doing more damage to the target.

People who plant bombs are the opposite extreme - they generally attempt to be nowhere near the scene at the time of the explosion. The effectiveness of the explosive will be deliberately compromised for the safety of the bomber.

Whilst the IRA occasionally had operatives who blew themselves up with their own bombs - this was entirely accidental and due to sloppy bomb making rather than intent.

So Christian suicide bombers... I'm drawing a blank. Jim Jones would be the closest I could get (who used poison rather than explosives). Notably he founded his own Church. The analogy is quite flawed however, not least the fact that the victims were his followers, who indeed, took their own lives.

Shintoism had its own array of suicide bombers during the second world war who dropped grenades when surrendering or, more memorably, sacrificed themselves in kamakazee zero attacks.

You could say that using suicide bombing as an abstraction for religious fundamentalism is specious but I'd argue it epitomises it.

Nodin wrote: »

You might come up with some evidence that a mosque of itself would encourage immigration. You might also bear in mind that you can't just walk into the country if you're from outside the EU - where, incidentally, most of the worlds muslim population resides.

What else would it be for? If an Irish centre was established in Indonesia for 40,000 Irish people, I would assume it would be to attract Irish immigrants to Indonesia, irrespective of the extant immigration policies in relation to Ireland

Nodin wrote: »

And christianity isn't "indigenous" to Ireland either, I might add.

Humans aren't indigenous to Ireland either, doesn't stop it being owned by them.

MrD012

Fratton Fred wrote: »

what UK society model have you seen?
Who gives a **** whether or not Islam has any benefits to western society, this is about building a mosque, or are you now advocating banning an entire religion?

As you are aware of , I am advocating studing the effects Islamic culture has had on western society especially in the UK , I am advocating studying the effects of Islamic shariah council rulings on women in the UK , I am advocating studying a range of issues such as arranged marriages , child brides , radicalisation ... all issues which are to the forefront of the British Media and which I have linked to extensively in previous posts .

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Ireland (well at least Dublin) is a modern multicultural society, it is right that there is a variety of places to practice their chosen faith.

Clongriffin has a diverse population , as far as I am aware there are not even that many muslims living there, how is it fair on the rest of the people living there by encouraging an unfair ratio of one particular culture just so the Developer can complete his project , a developer who should not even be involved in the property Industry , a golden circle investor.

philologos

MrD012 - churches are probably there so why not a mosque? How dies it affect your life to know that there are Muslims around. Why not see it as an opportunity to get to know them better. This year I hope to get to know the Muslims I've met here more and get into a dialogue about belief. Why not do the same?

skD13

MrD012 wrote: »

Clongriffin has a diverse population , as far as I am aware there are not even that many muslims living there, how is it fair on the rest of the people living there by encouraging an unfair ratio of one particular culture just so the Developer can complete his project ,

It does. Lots of Irish (Dubs and culchies), a fair few Eastern Europeans, some Scots, Brits, Swedes, French, Spanish.... pretty much like the rest of Dublin. I know 2 Muslims here (only 2 I admit)... very laid back. Great friends. I have friends from other cultures/nationalities too and I honestly don't even know what religion most of them are. The only reason I even know my Muslim friends are Muslim is because they lose some weight around Ramadan .

There is a rather large RC church down in Donaghmede serving Catholics around here. If this project was smaller... i.e. a smaller mosque, would you be OK with it?

And it's not just Gerry Gannon who wants to see this project finished. So do a hell of a lot of residents. Some won't like this centre but I know many who have little issue with it.

Frank Grimes

RandomName2 wrote: »

Hell, when did you last hear of an atheist, Christian or Buddhist suicide bomber?

In Lebanon during the war with Israel in the 1980s link. Robert Pape's book Dying to Win talks gives more statistics (it's a bit out of date now however) but to claim that suicide bombings are:

RandomName2 wrote:

...almost exactly synonymous with a religious activity - it is the sincerest expression of faith.

is not accurate. It may explain the motivations of certain suicide bombers individually but as a whole it is just another tactic that insurgent groups use. The PKK are a Marxist group and they have used it, the Tamil Tigers were (predominantly at least) Hindu and they have also used it - both separatist groups and neither religiously orientated - I have seen the argument that members of both groups had a quasi-religious allegiance to the respective leaders however I would not agree that they were/are cults. The various Marxist/leftist groups mentioned above could hardly be described as using it for religious purposes either, nor that the individuals associated with them were carrying out the bombings as an expression of faith, unless again you want to argue that political ideologies are akin to religions (which some people do, but I would not agree). There has been a Sikh suicide bomber too, and the group which he belonged to (I am not very familiar with it) appears to have been motivated by separatist claims rather than religion per se.

I am not trying to say that no group using suicide bombers are not, or have not been, motivated by religion, Islam or otherwise. Nor am I saying that individuals are never motivated by religion. The reality is more nuanced however.

Benny_Cake

MrD012 wrote: »

I just want to make a quick point .

the pro-mosque side tend to be libertarians , people who believe that everyone is allowed to express their freedoms even if it offends others .

I'm not a libertarian, and I'm neither pro-mosque or anti-mosque, whatever that means. I am, however, pro-constitution and the constitution protects the right to practise any religion or to practise no religion at all. The remainder of your post comparing the provision of a place of worship with the KKK or neo-Nazis marching in Dublin has nothing to do with building a mosque. Why don't you clarify how you would propose amending the constitution to prevent mosques from being built?

.jacksparrow.

Nobody has mentioned the call to prayer every day,someone think of the children!

skD13

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Nobody has mentioned the call to prayer every day,someone think of the children!

There isn't one. DCC have advised that call to prayer is internal, inside the building, as per Clonskeagh.

JustinDee

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Nobody has mentioned the call to prayer every day,someone think of the children!

Just stay in and listen to the Angelus bonging away instead.
As poster above correctly says, by the way, there's no call to prayer on any PA or from a minaret.

JustinDee

RandomName2 wrote: »

Immigration in this country is favourable - particularly when there are skill-sets, knowledge and experience which we are lacking. This is entirely separate from culture or creed. However, producing a building designed specifically to cultivate a religion that is not indigenous - nay not only that put provide it with an institutional cornerstone is not a wise idea. One could argue that it could attract Muslims who could benefit this country - but that is saying that such potential immigrants would put more stock in their faith than scientific or infrastructural developments in this country, which would not necessarily preclude them from the aforementioned skill-sets which we want to attract, but would certainly not favour it

Great, we're back in 1940s Ireland again, only Jews are now replaced by Muslims as the object of irrational mistrust.

JustinDee

MrD012 wrote: »

As you are aware of , I am advocating studing the effects Islamic culture has had on western society especially in the UK

You can't 'study' anything with a ne'er-for-change preconception or even prejudice already on board. All you do then is ignore whatever contravenes your viewpoint and cherry-pick what doesn't . . . just like you've been doing through this thread.

jmayo

old hippy wrote: »

jmayo wrote: »

Converts to anything are always the worst.
They have a point to prove.

BTW where exactly is this mosque going to be ?
Just wondering becuase as sure as hell the US is going to be moving in next door keeping an eye on it.

How so? Why?

If you plan on building one of the biggest mosques in Europe then I can see how the US and every other Western government that have been targets for muslim nutjobs would be very interested.
And no I am not syaing every muslim that attends a mosque is a nutjob bent on destruction of the west, but a lot of the ones that are have formulated their views in mosques where they have been exposed to certain teachings.

Look at who has been linked to the islamic centre in Clonskeagh.

And it aint just the Americans who have take exception to some of the people linked to our exsiting Irish mosques.

A CONTROVERSIAL Muslim cleric with links to the Clonskeagh mosque in Dublin has been told he is not welcome in France after President Nicolas Sarkozy announced plans to crack down on the dissemination of radical Islamist ideas.

Yusuf al-Qaradawi, an Egyptian-born religious scholar who is based in Qatar and is considered a spiritual guide of the Muslim Brotherhood, was due to attend a conference in Paris next month organised by the Union of French Islamic Organisations.

In the late 1990s, Mr Qaradawi established the European Council for Fatwa and Research – a group of scholars that issues religious opinions, or fatwas, on practical matters specific to Muslims in Europe. The council is based at the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland in Clonskeagh and the imam there, Egyptian-born Hussein Halawa, is the council’s secretary.

Mr Qaradawi was denied a visa to visit Britain in 2008 on grounds of seeking to “justify acts of terrorist violence or disburse views that could foster inter-community violence”, the British government said at the time.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/0327/1224313954230.html

US accused mosques of extremist connections
The cables, dating from July 2006, strongly linked the biggest mosque, the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland (ICCI), to the conservative Muslim Brotherhood, which is headed by the controversial cleric Yusuf al-Qaradawi.

Dublin embassy officials compiled the dossier in response to questions from the US State Department regarding a Dublin-based Islamic body, the European Council for Fatwa and Research (ECFR) and influential Muslim leaders in Ireland.

The cable closely links the ICCI, and its imam, Shaykh Hussein Muhammad Halawa, to ECFR, which it said was based in the ICCI, in Clonskeagh, south Dublin.

It also claimed that despite Imam Halawa’s public criticism of the London bombings of 2005 the ICCI employed as a religious teacher Abderrahmane Katrani, an Afghanistan veteran and Moroccan national wanted by the Government of Morocco for the 2003 Casablanca bombings.

In a statement, an ICCI spokesman said the ECFR and the ICCI were "two independent organisations". He confirmed the imam was the current secretary general of the ECFR.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2011/0429/ireland/us-accused-mosques-of-extremist-connections-152896.html

I think we as a state need to be wary.
That doesn't mean we should be racist bigots, but it also doesn't mean we should dismiss anyone with concerns.
The typical Irish attitude of "shure it'll be alright" could bite us in the ass.
We always need to be careful about the growth of any group who view our form of government and freedom as something to be destroyed, all the while using that freedom to slowly achieve their aims.
It was something we had to be very aware of it with our own homegrown terrorists in the latter half of the 20th century.

We have to learn from our neighbours and we can't afford to suddenly wake up in 30 years time to news that we have home grown Irishmen somewhere on the planet fighting in a jihadist war possibly against our own soldiers.
And that is something the British have experienced.
Assuming Irish soldiers are in a European army or Rangers on secondment with some other force.

Benny_Cake wrote: »

The US government must have incredible resources at it's disposal if it can dispatch teams to keep an eye on every mosque.

They only need to watch certain ones and an Irish mosque, the islamic centre in Clonskeagh has already appeared on their radar.

Do I want a big fook off Mosque in Ireland ?
No.
Do I want big fook off Cathedrals in Ireland belonging to a decrepit organisation that has covered wholesale abuse of children throughout the world ?
No.

irishconvert

MrD012 wrote: »

Therefore at what point do they say "NO" to Islamic culture beliefs , I mean do the say "No" to honour killings , do they say "NO" to child marriages , do they say "NO" to discrimination against women in shariah courts , I mean where is there cut off point ... ?

Will you please please please educate yourself and find out about real life Muslims. As someone else pointed out earlier, you really should go travelling to help open your mind a little. Is it so frustrating that you believe all these stereotypes. From your non-response to any questions about where you have travelled in the UK it is fair to assume you know very little about Muslims and Islam, and have come into contact with very few Muslims in your own life.

For the recond:
- Honour Killings are NOT allowed in Islam (a huge sin in fact)
- Child Marriages are NOT allowed in Islam (a woman cannot be married with her consent, and a child is unable to give their consent)
- Discrimination against women is NOT allowed in Islam.

irishconvert

MrD012, please answer the questions:

1) Have you ever lived in the UK, if so, what part?

2) Have you ever visited the UK, if so, what part.

skD13

Hey irishconvert,

Can I assume you are Muslim yes? Good to have actual Muslims on here debating this issue.

Can I ask you a genuine question. Regarding jmayo's post above on Yusuf al-Qaradawi. I have read articles on this guy before. Do you think it is a bad idea of Muslims in Ireland, via organizations located at the Clonskeagh centre, to be associated with the likes of this guy? Does it not cause problems for Islam and lead to accusations like Muslims are experiencing here from posters like MrD?

Why is the likes of this guy not renounced? He seems to be courting controversy that I imagine the majority of ordinary Muslims don't need.

I'd like an answer because as someone broadly welcoming of this development, I am not sure what to say when I hear about this guy as it does unnerve me and make me start to question?

Thanks in advance.

irishconvert

skD13 wrote: »

Hey irishconvert,

Can I assume you are Muslim yes? Good to have actual Muslims on here debating this issue.

Can I ask you a genuine question. Regarding jmayo's post above on Yusuf al-Qaradawi. I have read articles on this guy before. Do you think it is a bad idea of Muslims in Ireland, via organizations located at the Clonskeagh centre, to be associated with the likes of this guy? Does it not cause problems for Islam and lead to accusations like Muslims are experiencing here from posters like MrD?

Why is the likes of this guy not renounced? He seems to be courting controversy that I imagine the majority of ordinary Muslims don't need.

I'd like an answer because as someone broadly welcoming of this development, I am not sure what to say when I hear about this guy as it does unnerve me and make me start to question?

Thanks in advance.

Hi,

To be honest I don't know anything about Yusuf al-Qaradawi as I don't live in Dublin. However I am always wary of the phrase "has links to" as there never seems to be any evidence provided as to what those links acutally are.

If you can give me a few links to reliable information on the guy I will read it and give you my opinion.

EDIT: The Irish Times article linked to has no actual quotes from Yusuf al-Qaradawi. It looks like a copy and paste from Associated Press or Reuters, something the lazy Irish media do all the time. Wish they would do their own investigations and write their own articles?

I have seen Muslim scholars quoted out of context many times in the media and in press releases from the UK government so I take any media reports with a pinch of salt. I would want to read his exact words before I can tell you what I think of the guy.

wes

jmayo wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2011/0429/ireland/us-accused-mosques-of-extremist-connections-152896.html

The US cables cite unamed people, quote from the article you linked:

The cable cited unnamed individuals as claiming that the ICCI answered to Mr al-Qaradawi.

The article you linked quotes them denying any links to the guy:

In a statement, an ICCI spokesman said the ECFR and the ICCI were "two independent organisations". He confirmed the imam was the current secretary general of the ECFR.

He said the ECFR was an "Islamic theological body" that discussed issues such as coexistence of Muslims in Europe. The spokesman said the ICCI was formed "to encourage Muslims’ positive integration in Ireland".

He said Mr al-Qatrani was "never employed" by the ICCI or its adjacent school.

He said Imam Halawa and his secretary Ali Selim "never said that they belong to any group and that it has never been noticed that they promote certain ideologies".

Imam Yayha Al Hussein of the IFI, or the South Circular Road Mosque, rejected the extremist claims.

He said they were one of the few mosques that had an "open policy" and that the council that ran the mosque was democratically elected. He said the mosque was "completely independent and not answerable to anyone abroad".

So the "links" are at best very vague, and are being made by unamed individuals. Surely, more concrete proof, would be needed, beyond vague claims by "unnamed individuals", that they answer to Qaradawi.

MrD012

irishconvert wrote: »

Will you please please please educate yourself and find out about real life Muslims.

but I have , I have studied various reputable articles and reports about the effects of Islamic culture in the UK society and it does not look good

I appreciate that as a Muslim you are protecting your own as to speak but really you have not confronted any of the issues I have raised in previous linked articles such as discrimination of women in sharah council rulings , child brides , arranged marriages , radicalisation etc etc etc . you have yet to provide any documented evidence that suggests any of the articles or reports I have linked to are untrue.

JustinDee

MrD012 wrote: »

but I have , I have studied various reputable articles and reports about the effects of Islamic culture in the UK society and it does not look good

You've read what you wanted to read and ignored anything to the contrary. Hardly 'studying'.
There is a book I recommend to folk regularly here and it is by Nick Davies. Called 'Flat Earth News', it is an excellent study in how certain media behaves and has an interesting two chapters on how to read an article from the likes of the Mail or Telegraph.

MrD012

JustinDee wrote: »

Y
There is a book I recommend to folk regularly here and it is by Nick Davies. Called 'Flat Earth News', it is an excellent study in how certain media behaves and has an interesting two chapters on how to read an article from the likes of the Mail or Telegraph.

if you looked at my posts you would see there was also links to Articles in the Guardian. Apart from that are you suggesting everything we read in the tabloids is lies ?

Thinkingaboutit

It will provide a fillip to suppliers of ag chemicals and fertilisers, and maybe anyone with sugar in large quantities, and also timers, and cheap mobile phones.

Islam's mainstream is not some nice, well spoken Sufi or Alevi intellectual, but the bearded maniacs through Afghanistan, a place that appears to have regressed since Alexander the Great last passed through. Deobandi school or Wahabi or Salafy Islam is that mainstream. I am against the mosque. It is likely the Saudis are financing it, even it that might not be always evident. Any sane person would oppose this structure.

wes

MrD012 wrote: »

but I have , I have studied various reputable articles and reports about the effects of Islamic culture in the UK society and it does not look good

I appreciate that as a Muslim you are protecting your own as to speak but really you have not confronted any of the issues I have raised in previous linked articles such as discrimination of women in sharah council rulings , child brides , arranged marriages , radicalisation etc etc etc . you have yet to provide any documented evidence that suggests any of the articles or reports I have linked to are untrue.

You have continualy ignored the fact that the private arbitration laws in the UK, are you know an UK law, and as such have 0 bearing on Ireland. You also ignore that Muslims aren't the only one who use them as well. You also ignore that they existed 100 year before the vast majortiy of the UKs Muslims arrived. You seem intent on blaming Muslims on a UK system, that they didn't create, but are using like other groups are similarly using.

skD13

irishconvert wrote: »

Hi,

To be honest I don't know anything about Yusuf al-Qaradawi as I don't live in Dublin. However I am always wary of the phrase "has links to" as there never seems to be any evidence provided as to what those links acutally are.

If you can give me a few links to reliable information on the guy I will read it and give you my opinion.

EDIT: The Irish Times article linked to has no actual quotes from Yusuf al-Qaradawi. It looks like a copy and paste from Associated Press or Reuters, something the lazy Irish media do all the time. Wish they would do their own investigations and write their own articles?

I have seen Muslim scholars quoted out of context many times in the media and in press releases from the UK government so I take any media reports with a pinch of salt. I would want to read his exact words before I can tell you what I think of the guy.

Thanks irishconvert. OK. Here is a link with some information on the European Council for Fatwa and Research, located in Dublin at the Clonskeagh centre. http://www.euro-muslim.com/en_u_foundation_details.aspx?news_id=343

It's president, listed here is this guy:

1. Professor Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, President of ECFR (Egypt, Qatar)

I only skimmed the objectives, seem fine and I guess beneficial to Muslims.

So there's the pretty concrete link to Al-Qaradawi and the Clonskeagh mosque. He is not based in Ireland but he is head of an organisation based here.

So in that Irish Times article that jmayo linked to above it states he was denied entry to France and Britain. The article states:

"Mr Qaradawi was denied a visa to visit Britain in 2008 on grounds of seeking to “justify acts of terrorist violence or disburse views that could foster inter-community violence”, the British government said at the time."

This Independent article reporting the same entry bans says that he "has defended suicide bombing and advocated the death penalty for homosexuals. "... and the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland wouldn't denounce him.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fatwa-sheikh-with-links-to-irish-muslims-is-refused-visa-2842247.html

Here is a BBC article re. his views on suicide bombings and actually quotes him. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3874893.stm

And a here is a Guardain article on his view on female genital mutilation. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/oct/15/female-genital-mutilation-yusuf-al-qaradawi

Anyway, back to my question and I admit I am just playing devil's advocate here as this is the kind of thing that gets thrown out as arguments for protesting the building of another mosque/cultural centre in Dublin; Would the majority of ordinary Muslims denounce the likes of this fellow and are they concerned that he heads this ECFR in Clonskeagh. Seems like bad PR to me. Is this not embarrassing for Muslims to have to deflect suspicions due to senior clerics like this heading official Muslim organizations and getting banned from countries like the UK and France?

To me it looks bad and it make me ask questions of the intentions of Islamic leaders in this country and beyond.

And of course, I admit, clerics can be a world away from the average adherent to a religion. But I do feel like this stuff needs to be teased out a little. The newspaper articles seem pretty objective.

Have you enough to go on now re. this guy to suss him out? He appears on a TV show on Al Jazeera as well I believe.

Thanks

Fromthetrees

irishconvert wrote: »

For the recond:
- Child Marriages are NOT allowed in Islam (a woman cannot be married with her consent, and a child is unable to give their consent)
- Discrimination against women is NOT allowed in Islam.

irishconvert, feel free to correct me here but didn't Mohammed take a child bride during his lifetime and isn't the testimony of a woman worth half that of a man.

jmayo

wes wrote: »

The US cables cite unamed people, quote from the article you linked:

The article you linked quotes them denying any links to the guy:

So the "links" are at best very vague, and are being made by unamed individuals. Surely, more concrete proof, would be needed, beyond vague claims by "unnamed individuals", that they answer to Qaradawi.

Well you hardly expect them to announce the exact name of a possible inside source.
Or maybe you do. :rolleyes:

And do seriously expect someone or somebody to admit they are answering to someone who has been denied entry to countries due to his espousal of hatred and violence ?

No matter how you try and spin it that there are no links between people who are seen as pro violence by other western governments (i.e. Britain, France) and the islamic centre in Clonskeagh, you can't change the facts that there are some links.
The very fact that this guy has visited the centre, has been part of an organisation that has links to the centre is not up for discussion.

The only things that are up for discussion is how involved is the imman in the centre and does he answer to Qaradawi.

Either way there are serious questions there and you glossing over this is typical burying ones head in the sand.

BTW Al-Qaradawi has interesting opinions on wife beating, rape, female circumcision, homosexuals to name but a few.
All opinions that would be in direct opposition to our freedoms in this country.
Oh and he is no fan of even fellow muslims, calling shias heretics.

irishconvert

skD13 wrote: »

Thanks irishconvert. OK. Here is a link with some information on the European Council for Fatwa and Research, located in Dublin at the Clonskeagh centre. http://www.euro-muslim.com/en_u_foundation_details.aspx?news_id=343

It's president, listed here is this guy:

1. Professor Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, President of ECFR (Egypt, Qatar)

I only skimmed the objectives, seem fine and I guess beneficial to Muslims.

So there's the pretty concrete link to Al-Qaradawi and the Clonskeagh mosque. He is not based in Ireland but he is head of an organisation based here.

So in that Irish Times article that jmayo linked to above it states he was denied entry to France and Britain. The article states:

"Mr Qaradawi was denied a visa to visit Britain in 2008 on grounds of seeking to “justify acts of terrorist violence or disburse views that could foster inter-community violence”, the British government said at the time."

This Independent article reporting the same entry bans says that he "has defended suicide bombing and advocated the death penalty for homosexuals. "... and the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland wouldn't denounce him.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fatwa-sheikh-with-links-to-irish-muslims-is-refused-visa-2842247.html

Here is a BBC article re. his views on suicide bombings and actually quotes him. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3874893.stm

And a here is a Guardain article on his view on female genital mutilation. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/oct/15/female-genital-mutilation-yusuf-al-qaradawi

Anyway, back to my question and I admit I am just playing devil's advocate here as this is the kind of thing that gets thrown out as arguments for protesting the building of another mosque/cultural centre in Dublin; Would the majority of ordinary Muslims denounce the likes of this fellow and are they concerned that he heads this ECFR in Clonskeagh. Seems like bad PR to me. Is this not embarrassing for Muslims to have to deflect suspicions due to senior clerics like this heading official Muslim organizations and getting banned from countries like the UK and France?

To me it looks bad and it make me ask questions of the intentions of Islamic leaders in this country and beyond.

And of course, I admit, clerics can be a world away from the average adherent to a religion. But I do feel like this stuff needs to be teased out a little. The newspaper articles seem pretty objective.

Have you enough to go on now re. this guy to suss him out? He appears on a TV show on Al Jazeera as well I believe.

Thanks

Ok, well I strongly disagree with his view on FGM, as do all Muslims I know at least. As for his comment on suicide bombing, the BBC article says

He has distanced himself from suicide attacks in the West but he has consistently defended Palestinian suicide attacks against Israelis.

Recently he told Al-Jazeera that he was not alone in believing that suicide bombings in Palestinian territories were a legitimate form of self defence for people who have no aircraft or tanks.

Directly quoting Al Qaradawi

Through his (Allah) infinite wisdom he has given the weak a weapon the strong do not have and and that is their ability to turn their bodies into bombs as Palestinians do

So he is referring to people who are using suicide bombing to defend themselves from attacks as they have no other means. They can't compete with fighter jets dropping bombs from the sky and bombing them back to the stone age.

Do you see or agree with his point of view in any way?

It is double standards to condemn him and disassociate with him for what he said if you don't also do the same to the other side who are attacking and killing civillians in Pakistan.

old hippy

MrD012 wrote: »

if you looked at my posts you would see there was also links to Articles in the Guardian. Apart from that are you suggesting everything we read in the tabloids is lies ?

There's a lot of lies, bigotry and prejudice floating about when it comes to certain religions, sure.

Btw, have you ever lived, worked or visited the UK?