Solar Panels

HurlingBoy

What are the best solar panels on the market? I've heard the cylindrical panels are more efficient. Panels will be going on the garage so thinking off going with these. What is the approximate cost?

muffler

Moved to the RE forum.

BryanF

HurlingBoy wrote: »

I've heard the cylindrical panels are more efficient. Panels will be going on the garage so thinking off going with these. What is the approximate cost?

when you consider efficiency you must also consider longevity. allow 1k per msq upto approx 4 then economy of scale kicks in, this is all tide into what tank, pipework ,roof install ie general messing about is required

quentingargan

The cylindrical type is a vacuum tube. Because it has a vacuum, it is better insulated than a flatplate, and thus works better on the fringes of the season, in spring and autumn.

Flatplates are about the same price, but are more aesthetically appealing. They are slightly more difficult to retrofit, and it is generally better to use the type that is roof-integrated - in other words, it sits into your roof rather than on top of the slates.

A flatplate system should last about 40 years whereas vacuum tubes will need their tubes replaced after 15 to 20 years. So it is horses for courses. If your house is well insulated, and the heating is off for most of spring & autumn, the vacuum system probably makes more sense.

Q

John T Carroll

HurlingBoy wrote: »

What are the best solar panels on the market? I've heard the cylindrical panels are more efficient. Panels will be going on the garage so thinking off going with these. What is the approximate cost?

The following attachment will give you some idea of Evac.Tube/Flat Plate Ratio in European Countries. (2010 new installments). I was astonished at some of the facts?
If I have interpreted page 13 of the Report correctly then......
Evac. Tube % of 2010 European Market is as follows: (I just sampled 4 countries.)
Austria 4.2%
Germany 10%
Ireland 42%
UK 28%

I also used their population(s) to show the thermal solar density per Sq.Mtr
of collectors. (Both types)
Austria 2.19 people/M2
Germany 5.92 people/M2
Ireland 34.12 people/M2
UK 92.46 people/M2

There seems to be a huge potential market in the UK for Thermal Solar.
Can someone please tell me why the Austrians and Germans have such a love of the Flat Plate Collector?, maybe you can actually live inside one and thus attract an A1 Energy Rating!.
Sorry, couldnt D/Load the file as it exceeds the limit but if you should find it if you google "Solar Thermal Markets in Europe" or something similar. JTC

2010vwpassat

Stay away from the tubes, they are not as strong as the flat panel, when i had them fitted the fitters were standing on them that how strong they are, try standing on the tubes!!
The tubes only give you a little extra heat but over the course of a day you would not really notice the difference.
There are 2 types of panels; anti-freeze & a Drain back system, i have a drian back but would now advise the anti-freeze as mine will stop working if snow on them.
The average price for panels is between €3k to €5.5k depending on who you go with, stay away from <mod snip> , they are cowboys, they charge over €7k & don't tell you that under the contract you sign with them that if you fail to cancell within 1 week of signing they keep your deposit (2K), they also use copper cyclinders where stainsteel should be used etc.

freddyuk

2010vwpassat wrote: »

Stay away from the tubes, they are not as strong as the flat panel, when i had them fitted the fitters were standing on them that how strong they are, try standing on the tubes!!
The tubes only give you a little extra heat but over the course of a day you would not really notice the difference.
There are 2 types of panels; anti-freeze & a Drain back system, i have a drian back but would now advise the anti-freeze as mine will stop working if snow on them.
The average price for panels is between €3k to €5.5k depending on who you go with, stay away from <mod snip> , they are cowboys, they charge over €7k & don't tell you that under the contract you sign with them that if you fail to cancell within 1 week of signing they keep your deposit (2K), they also use copper cyclinders where stainsteel should be used etc.

If the "fitters" stood on my panels after I was paying €3,000 I would have them off the site quite quickly. I mean when should the ability to stand on a solar panel be the reason to buy them??
The rest of your comments need to be backed up by fact as vague general assumptions are not very helpful to other users of the forum.
If there is snow on any solar panel it will stop working! However you will be less likely to get snow on a tube system but then you cannot stand on them do they will not be any good......:(

quentingargan

I agree about the cowboys. There are companies out there with doorstep sales techniques that are abominable. And successful - there are now three companies I can think of using high pressure doorstep selling on solar panels, doing terrible damage to the industry.

But I agree with Freddie that if you want to jump up and down on something, buy a trampoline.

The most likely cause of breakage after the installation monkeys have gone home is a hooligan's stone, or a sliotar (maybe a cricket ball in D4). It you break a tube, replacing it is very straightforward. If you break a flatplate, it is a much bigger problem. And a leaky roof in the meantime. So there are plusses and negatives to both systems, but this isn't a decisive one.

daver123

my advice would be to go with the kingspan tube system it is very good

acutenurse

where did you build and how big is your house. I am planniing a bungalow 270m 2 .. any other suggestin aprt from kingspan and how much was it?

2010vwpassat

acutenurse wrote: »

where did you build and how big is your house. I am planniing a bungalow 270m 2 .. any other suggestin aprt from kingspan and how much was it?

As long as you stay away from Chinese panels your ok, they are very cheap quality, the size of the system you will use will depend on the amount of people in the house unless your thinking of using it to heat the house which will require a vast system, most likely 10 to 12 sqm+. For personal use & up to 4 people in the house you require 4 to 6 sqm.
It is recommended to use a stainless steel tank, usually the daily allowance per person for water is 50 litres so multiply that by amount of people as a minimum. Also go for flat panels, not evacuated tubes, their fragile compared to flat panels.

freddyuk

2010vwpassat wrote: »

As long as you stay away from Chinese panels your ok, they are very cheap quality, the size of the system you will use will depend on the amount of people in the house unless your thinking of using it to heat the house which will require a vast system, most likely 10 to 12 sqm+. For personal use & up to 4 people in the house you require 4 to 6 sqm.
It is recommended to use a stainless steel tank, usually the daily allowance per person for water is 50 litres so multiply that by amount of people as a minimum. Also go for flat panels, not evacuated tubes, their fragile compared to flat panels.

More personal experiences rather than fact. Please don't base any decision on anecdotal evidence.

ccsolar

2010vwpassat wrote: »

As long as you stay away from Chinese panels your ok, .

Can you name a solar panel that hasn't got some part of it manufactured in china, just because it says made in Europe doesn't mean it was actually made their.
Manufacturing normally means it was assembled with different parts been imported from other countries

2010vwpassat

freddyuk wrote: »

More personal experiences rather than fact. Please don't base any decision on anecdotal evidence.

Its not but you do as you want, i didn't say they are rubbish, i didn't say they are too fragile, i said they are more fragile than flat panels which is true. You go and buy the evacuated tubes if you want but if one of them (the seal) breaks you will be the one having to pay to have your system drained to replace to tube, not me.

freddyuk

2010vwpassat wrote: »

Its not but you do as you want, i didn't say they are rubbish, i didn't say they are too fragile, i said they are more fragile than flat panels which is true. You go and buy the evacuated tubes if you want but if one of them (the seal) breaks you will be the one having to pay to have your system drained to replace to tube, not me.

No I won't. I think you need to research the Evacuated tube systems and understand how they work. If one of my tubes fails ie. the vacuum leaks then that is a leakage of air into that one tube and it will no longer be as effective but the system will still run as normal and in summer you would not even notice the loss of one tube. If you need to replace a failed tube you pull that one out and push a new one in. If you have a problem with your flat plate system you will need to drain the whole system, unbolt the panel and replace it with a new one and you will certainly notice the loss of performance! I am not aware you can fix a leak in a flat plate panel.
On a related issue the Chinese have been making solar panels systems for many years and have a good level of skill and experience. The Turks have very little experience but guess where the Kingspan panels come from??

Wally Runs

I dare not get into the flat v tubes or European v far east discussion, other than to say that I have Kingspan tubes since 2009. Give or take 3M2 and a 300 l tank. I am very happy with them (although my wife thinks they look icky compared to flat).

Here is my point, if you intend to be in this home for a number of years and you think that the solar system for heating your water will be significant feature you may wish to pay a bit more to have a product supported closer to home. I say this, as while my system was put in by a company certified installer there were one or two issues down the line (nothing major, damaged o-ring). I was able to email KS customer support (after giving the original installer an opportunity to rectify the issue) and have them confirm that the issue (by visiting the site) was an installation one and they could assist me in having it rectified as per the warranty.

I am not sure you would get that from all suppliers? I may be wrong.

jdrysdale

I've had a solar panel installed for over five years now. It was a DIY job with the grant that was available at the time from SEI.
Hindsight is a great thing so here are some lessons.
I installed vacuum tubes from navitron ecologics, the big advantage for me was the ease of assembly on the roof.
Never has one broke, never has one lost its vacuum.
But, I installed too small a panel, first mistake. To address this I did add an additional panel this year which revealed one big issue. To add the panel the old panel had to be taken down. When removing the old tubes the heat pipes got stuck inside the manifold. To make a long story short the insides of the tubes were badly made and corroded between the heat pipe and fins, I cleaned up the corrosion, replaced heat fins as required and reassembled using thermal paste.
I now have a thirty tube panel which delivered a 56 deg tank yesterday.
So in short what I am saying is vacuum tubes are not so maintenance free, but when you have a good set the performance is very good. Flat panels are probably more reliable not needing a second thought, so just make sure it's big enough.

Get a steel tank and provided there is a heat top up legionnaires should not be a problem. The copper tanks are less expensive but would require more frequent replacing. My second mistake, also at first I had it open vented, another mistake

I've being told that the grant now is a waste of your money, you're better off not bothering with and use the equipment a reputable installer recommends as opposed to what the SEI say you must use.
Best of luck

ccsolar

jdrysdale wrote: »

I've being told that the grant now is a waste of your money, you're better off not bothering with and use the equipment a reputable installer recommends as opposed to what the SEI say you must use.
Best of luck

Hi
The grant is by no means a waste of time, it is the homeowners guarantee that the contractor hasn't cut any corners.
By going down the grant route the contractor has to install a system that meets all Safethy requirements, why would you install a system that could be unsafe.
If the contractor is offering the homeowner a higher price to install a system to meet the grant requirements then the homeowner needs to buy a saddle.
The price should be the same as normal and the grant should have nothing to do with the price.
The Seai have a very low tolerance for bad installations and a lot of contractors have been struck off or suspended, in these cases the contractor is telling the home owner not to bother with the grant inorder for them to be able to carry out the work.
Cc

jdrysdale

ccsolar wrote: »

Hi
The grant is by no means a waste of time, it is the homeowners guarantee that the contractor hasn't cut any corners.
By going down the grant route the contractor has to install a system that meets all Safethy requirements, why would you install a system that could be unsafe.
If the contractor is offering the homeowner a higher price to install a system to meet the grant requirements then the homeowner needs to buy a saddle.
The price should be the same as normal and the grant should have nothing to do with the price.
The Seai have a very low tolerance for bad installations and a lot of contractors have been struck off or suspended, in these cases the contractor is telling the home owner not to bother with the grant inorder for them to be able to carry out the work.
Cc

Fair enough, if the standerd enforced by the SEI lends to less cowboy, more reliability then it can only be a good thing.
I stand corrected.

HurlingBoy

I am building a new house. Is the grant only available on houses built prior to 2006?

ccsolar

HurlingBoy wrote: »

I am building a new house. Is the grant only available on houses built prior to 2006?

Hi hurlingboy
The grant only applies to houses built prior to 2006 , but if you get a solar system sized and installed correctly you should be looking at between €800. - €1000 saving per year depending on your requirements.
Cc

HurlingBoy

My plumber is recommending Joule Solar Panels. Has anyone any experience with these? Are they as good as Kingspan Thermomax?

ccsolar

HurlingBoy wrote: »

My plumber is recommending Joule Solar Panels. Has anyone any experience with these? Are they as good as Kingspan Thermomax?

Hi HurlingBoy
You won't go wrong with Joule, a number of solar panel suppliers in Ireland get their vacuum tubes from the same factory as Joule.
Remember if your plumber is not registered with the manufacturer/ supplier you will not get the extended warrenty of 10 years.
Depending on the supplier you can get upto 15 years warrenty on some makes of vacuum tubes.
The majority of solar panels on sale in Ireland are very good quality with performance pretty even across the board, normally if a system is performing bad it's down to the installation.
Hope this helps
Cc

kscobie

lots of chat about stainless steel cylinders lads, they should not be fitted on systems where the water comes from a well.
Water mains= stainless steel
Well supply= Copper

WhatNowForUs?

kscobie wrote: »

lots of chat about stainless steel cylinders lads, they should not be fitted on systems where the water comes from a well.
Water mains= stainless steel
Well supply= Copper

That's interesting. Why?

kscobie

Stainless steel cylinders should not be fitted on wells as it invalidates the warranty. In some cases, stainless cylinders can leak. I forget the reason, something to do with lack of oxigen in some well water I think. I usually use Grant cylinders, or Joule sometimes. Give them a ring and they will give the full version!!

tommydublin

watch out on price i was looking a round on kingspan ect 1200 to 2000 euro to install them + vat 13.5% not bad goin for a day n half work on the solar

all you need to price is solar panel kit tubes panels ect
Cylinder size 200 or 300 L
Flexible Steel Insulated Piping how many meters
.....

tippman79

anyone able to recommend a good seai approved contractor to install solars in munster. I'm also looking to get the heating controls upgraded and some walls dry lined so an all in one contractor would be nice!!!

WhatNowForUs?

tommydublin wrote: »

watch out on price i was looking a round on kingspan ect 1200 to 2000 euro to install them + vat 13.5% not bad goin for a day n half work on the solar

all you need to price is solar panel kit tubes panels ect
Cylinder size 200 or 300 L
Flexible Steel Insulated Piping how many meters
.....

Interesting. There was a quote earlier saying that under certain circumstances there would be a savings of between €800 - €1200 per year. So the price above is bringing the payback for the solar panels into the 1-2 year range group.

ccsolar

tippman79 wrote: »

anyone able to recommend a good seai approved contractor to install solars in munster. I'm also looking to get the heating controls upgraded and some walls dry lined so an all in one contractor would be nice!!!

Hi Tippman
Where abouts in Tipp are you?
Cc

ccsolar

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

Interesting. There was a quote earlier saying that under certain circumstances there would be a savings of between €800 - €1200 per year. So the price above is bringing the payback for the solar panels into the 1-2 year range group.

I think the price mentioned was Labour only, you still have to buy the solar system.
The best you could hope for is a pay back of 4 years on solar which is good considering the system would have a warranty of 15 yrs on tubes and 25 yrs on the tank, depending on the make of system you install.

CC

tippman79

Hi ccsolar,
Clonmel - south Tipperary