3 weeks training schedule for sub 4 marathon

Kurt Godel

Background: Male, 42, jogging since 2007. Marathon pb 3:10 (2009), most recent was 3:2x two years back. PB HM 1:28, 10k 40:xx, both years ago. Last two years have been running write-offs owing to joint, muscle injuries, long-term respiratory problems. Haven't jogged in a month, haven't done almost anything bar one swim for the last three weeks, owing to a monster cold that wouldn't budge. I got fed up waiting for it to shift today, and decided to see if I could run the DM in three weeks time, using my own made-up program below.

This sort of came about from a thread on the main forum, where a jogger was looking to run a 5-hour marathon, having had an interrupted training schedule. I reckon anyone with a modicum of fitness can. So this log is an experiment to see what happens when someone with long-term injury problems (who has been told to give up running), is overweight, and hasn't run more than a few hundred miles in 2012, jogs a full marathon on very limited training. I might pull up during the race, I might exacerbate long-term injuries, I might have a heart attack- but I'm sincere in my attempt. In order to be better prepared, I've taken two simple measures which will aid the attempt- no alcohol, and iron supplements to combat footstrike hemolysis (I run in minimal shoes). Cross training means easy bikes or easy swims.

Date|Scheduled (miles)|Comment
Wed 10th|18|19.2 ran, in about 3:10. Tough for the last two miles, no gels or water taken. Cool, damp, trail|
Thurs 11th|Cross/Easy||
Fri 12th|5 easy||
Sat 13th|5 easy/Cross||
Sun 14th|13 easy||
Mon 15th|Cross||
Tues 16th|8 steady||
Wed 17th|6 steady||
Thurs 18th|Cross||
Fri 19th|18 lsr||
Sat 20th|5 easy/Cross||
Sun 21nd|6 easy||
Mon 22nd|6 easy||
Tues 23rd|13 steady/easy||
Wed 24th|5 easy/Cross||
Thurs 25th|8 steady||
Fri 26th|5 easy/Cross||
Sat 27th|Cross||
Sun 28th|Cross||
Mon 29th|Marathon||

RayCun

If you can run 19.2 in 3.10 on trail today, 4.30 isn't in question.

Pisco Sour

LOL. This is why we like having you around these forums.

Kurt Godel

RayCun wrote: »

If you can run 19.2 in 3.10 on trail today, 4.30 isn't in question.

Last two miles were horrendous. Slowing down to a shuffle:o

The time isn't the goal here, its an experiment to see if a marathon can be completed by someone coming back from a long break and injury, on 3 weeks training. The question comes up enough times from runners who have missed chunks in their schedule towards the end, and the stock answer is regroup and target a Spring race. That doesn't sit with me (its great advice for someone running a fast time who has invested a lot into their training, not so sure though it applies to joggers just looking to tick boxes), so I aim to find out. Ok, I've not a novice, but I haven't done anything endurance wise in years, have hardly done any running- any residual fitness has come from the pool; but I reckon it might be a useful tale, one way or the other:)

ultraman1

4:15 or ull be floggin ur donadea number.....

Murph_D

Interesting thread. But DM entry is closed. Are you planning a bandit run?

Pacing Mule

murphd77 wrote: »

Interesting thread. But DM entry is closed. Are you planning a bandit run?

Kurt Godel

ultraman1 wrote: »

4:15 or ull be floggin ur donadea number.....

Jeez if I knew you could flog them I'd never have deffered from last year! I'll wait until you're full, then hit ebay.

murphd77 wrote: »

Interesting thread. But DM entry is closed. Are you planning a bandit run?

Wouldn't do that, I have an entry already:)

RayCun

Kurt Godel wrote: »

regroup and target a Spring race....not so sure though it applies to joggers just looking to tick boxes

It's a plot to sucker them in. Keep telling them they have to keep running for another 6 months before they try the marathon, because by then they might enjoy running and care less about the box-ticking

Dory Dory

My turn to coo sweet nothings....

RacoonQueen

murphd77 wrote: »

Interesting thread. But DM entry is closed. Are you planning a bandit run?

Don't worry. I sold him mine. He's now a female in her 20's running for the national championshp. Shhhh don't tell anyone.

TRR

are you supplementing your training with GAA or a bit of 5 aside?

Kurt Godel

TRR wrote: »

are you supplementing your training with GAA or a bit of 5 aside?

Water polo and wheelies.

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Don't worry. I sold him mine. He's now a female in her 20's running for the national championshp. Shhhh don't tell anyone.

The knickers are a bit tight, but I'll persevere.

Totally unexpected results of having gone 0-19 miles: I'm walking down the stairs sideways, and the soles of my feet feel like someone took a cheesegrater to them. Reckon several toenails will be sacrificed in the name of science. Seem to have run out the cold though, sometimes a shock to the system will kill the virus.

ultraman1

Kurt Godel wrote: »

sometimes a shock to the system will kill the virus.

wearing racoons cax wud do dat alright,.....i got a lend of dem wen i had terminal manflu,made a full recovery,but the headaches and flashbacks are stll there...

Izoard

Really?

Tell me you won't be stalking the 4.30 pacers...that will be like having the Cigire in class all day!

Go and keep tabs on the 4hr crew - you are well able for it and they need the supervision:)

Krusty_Clown

Kurt Godel wrote: »

The time isn't the goal here, its an experiment to see if a marathon can be completed by someone coming back from a long break and injury, on 3 weeks training. The question comes up enough times from runners who have missed chunks in their schedule towards the end, and the stock answer is regroup and target a Spring race. That doesn't sit with me (its great advice for someone running a fast time who has invested a lot into their training, not so sure though it applies to joggers just looking to tick boxes), so I aim to find out. Ok, I've not a novice, but I haven't done anything endurance wise in years, have hardly done any running- any residual fitness has come from the pool; but I reckon it might be a useful tale, one way or the other:)

Rumour has it that you jogged an easy 2:00 half marathon just a couple of weeks back. How many of your fellow injured born again runner subjects would manage that?

tHE vAGGABOND

Didn't Jedward do something similar last year in LA :pac:

Kurt Godel

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Rumour has it that you jogged an easy 2:00 half marathon just a couple of weeks back. How many of your fellow injured born again runner subjects would manage that?

3.5 weeks ago, 2:00 HM. Very little running before it.
20 miles total various running in the week after.
Zero running for the past 2.5 weeks.
Have had a cold for those 2.5 weeks.
Calf injury during that time too.
Am attempting to refind whatever fitness I lost in those off weeks, and run the DM in three weeks, having not followed any plan before. Time doesn't matter, at issue is whether I can run a marathon after illness and a big gap in training, just like all those guys who have been on a training plan and ask on the forum "should I still run?". They usually get told not to by well-meaning (faster) runners; I reckon they should still go ahead and tick that box. And make whatever mistakes they do, and learn from them. I was going to post this anonymously; so if you can get my ugly mug out of your mind for a minute;)- what advice would you give to someone with the training I've outlined above (supplemented with some distance swims and a 1.5 hour short bike turbo)? Should I attempt to run the marathon in 3 weeks time? I'm curious myself, that's why I'm doing this.

Krusty_Clown

I was going to respond to kit3's request on the main forum, and tell him to go for it, but I reckoned that would have just been too hypocritical. There is an essential difference between you (and kit3), versus Pageant Messiah and some of the other posters and that is that you have done this before. You have been down this road and you know what you are getting yourself into. You know how to run. You know how to train. You know what to eat. You know when to back off, when you get those sharp pains in your knee, and you know who to go and see about your knees, if they do cause trouble.

If I were a gambling man (and I am!), I'd bet strongly in your corner. I remember a similar venture last year, when you went for a really long run on a whim, doing most of the Wicklow way over a day or two? IMO that was a much bigger challenge than what you're doing in three weeks time. But I look forward to the experiment nonetheless. Based on your recent Half marathon time (which you jogged), your MacMillan target would be 4:12. I reckon a reasonable target would be sub-4. If you can crack sub-4, I'll buy you a couple of pints.

*Edit*: and the only advice I'd give you is to run 20 miles on the 19th, and do 'em real slow, so you spend close to 3:30 out there. It'll kill you, but the pay-off will be worth it.

Kurt Godel

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I was going to respond to kit3's request on the main forum, and tell him to go for it, but I reckoned that would have just been too hypocritical. There is an essential difference between you (and kit3), versus Pageant Messiah and some of the other posters and that is that you have done this before. You have been down this road and you know what you are getting yourself into. You know how to run. You know how to train. You know what to eat. You know when to back off, when you get those sharp pains in your knee, and you know who to go and see about your knees, if they do cause trouble.

Very valid points, and its this what had me thinking I should post anonymously. Reckon you'd be giving the stock response. Anyway, I respect your point of view, and your help and opinions you give to the forum, and I don't want to make it out that what I'm doing is some huge feat- its just an experiment to see how a marathon goes having decided to train 3 weeks before, with only 2 13-milers under my belt in the past ages.
But in the main, its just a bit of fun, and an excuse to sink some pints afterwards, like it is for most posting here:)

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

If I were a gambling man (and I am!), I'd bet strongly in your corner. I remember a similar venture last year, when you went for a really long run on a whim, doing most of the Wicklow way over a day or two? IMO that was a much bigger challenge than what you're doing in three weeks time.

What the one I did having never done an Ultra before, untrained, on bad knees?;) I was well-fueled though.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

But I look forward to the experiment nonetheless. Based on your recent Half marathon time (which you jogged), your MacMillan target would be 4:12. I reckon a reasonable target would be sub-4. If you can crack sub-4, I'll buy you a couple of pints.

*Edit*: and the only advice I'd give you is to run 20 miles on the 19th, and do 'em real slow, so you spend close to 3:30 out there. It'll kill you, but the pay-off will be worth it.

Sub4 is it? Thanks for the backhanded compliment- may I reciprocate by saying your own training has gone swimmingly and has lasted for more than 3 weeks and I reckon you're sandbagging and should hit 2:30 with ease;)

My legs are in bits now- there's a reason you're meant to build up the long runs gradually. I take your point on a 20-miler "time on your feet", cheers.

TRR

if you had of posted this anonymously I would have thought you were a nut and ignored you.

Seen as you didn't I still think you're a nut but should be targeting 4 or 4.15 at the very least.

All joking aside is it a good idea? Say for argument sake you wanted to become a man again and stop splashing around and pedaling your spokey dokes could it have a short to long term negative impact in you regaining your masculinity and rejoining the ranks of runners? Ok so all joking wasn't aside

Kurt Godel

TRR wrote: »

if you had of posted this anonymously I would have thought you were a nut and ignored you.

Seen as you didn't I still think you're a nut but should be targeting 4 or 4.15 at the very least.

All joking aside is it a good idea? Say for argument sake you wanted to become a man again and stop splashing around and pedaling your spokey dokes could it have a short to long term negative impact in you regaining your masculinity and rejoining the ranks of runners? Ok so all joking wasn't aside

I ran out of legs after 17 miles today, struggled the next 2- hope to push this to 19 or 20 before things go south, in the next LSR. Gels and fluids on the day should help. Knees are fecked one way or the other, so I've no running career/hobby ahead of me. I'd say I'd break down over a 18-week marathon cycle, so we'll see what 3 weeks brings. Its probably not a good idea, but hopefully it'll be a fun thing finding out.

I'm sort of hoist by my own petard though, was looking to get around in any time, just to show what can be done in a few weeks, but hearing the sub4 pressure from you and Unckie Gary...

TRR

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I'm sort of hoist by my own petard though, was looking to get around in any time, just to show what can be done in a few weeks, but hearing the sub4 pressure from you and Unckie Gary...

I'll loose all respect for you if you don't try and sure it can have benefits, less time on your feet

Kurt Godel

TRR wrote: »

I'll loose all respect for you if you don't try and sure it can have benefits, less time on your feet

Changed the title to sub 4, in for a penny, in for a pound. I hear ya on less time on the feet, the issue will be what happens endurance wise after 20. Won't have the glucose stored on the muscles. I'd nearly be tempted to bank 10 mins at half for the expected slowdown. May as well set fire to the rulebook as well as ripping it:)

Anyway, I'll have a better idea far far in the future, when I'm half way through this training cycle.

Dory Dory

**cough, cough** ".....bank 10 minutes at half....." I feel some cooing of some sweet nothings coming on.

But, since you asked.....if I only knew what you wrote in the first two paragraphs of your initial post, then I would tell you to consult your doctor before you embarked on this marathon crash course. However, even if I didn't know it was the artist formerly known as dpop logging, but I knew about the antics and events you participated in this year and omitted from those first two paragraphs, then I would tell you to go for it - for all the reasons the clown stated. Plus, you know.....sometimes I think people bail from races when the going gets tough for purely vain reasons - gotta keep up appearances, you know.

You'll be fine in the little jaunt around Dublin. You know your body and what to expect....and don't forget you can always use the run/walk strategy if needed. There was a fella in front of me around mile 20 who was using this method and he and I stayed at similar pace for quite a while.

Pisco Sour

I'd forget the sub 4 if this is an experiment. The jogger who wants to tick boxes doesn't particularly care about time. You are representing all box tickers here so may as well do it right.

kit3

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I was going to respond to kit3's request on the main forum, and tell him to go for it, but I reckoned that would have just been too hypocritical.

Hi,
I'm female (not that that's really relevant but anyway...). My main query was really around the length of LSR you would recommend this weekend given that it's only two weeks out. Would have liked to get another 20 in but feel it may be pushing it this close and am vereing towards 15/18. I've missed the last two LSR's but that's all. I've no intention of being stupid about this. If the niggle isn't cleared I won't be doing DCM - would be devastated but won't risk maybe not being able to run for months, that would kill me. Would really welcome your opinion. Thanks C

Kurt Godel

Pisco Sour wrote: »

I'd forget the sub 4 if this is an experiment. The jogger who wants to tick boxes doesn't particularly care about time. You are representing all box tickers here so may as well do it right.

In retrospect I think the lads are right- I can't pretend to be someone ticking my first marathon box, and I probably could have continued yesterdays run for a 26 mile in 4:30 (would have not been pretty at the end though!).

So I should be putting myself under a bit of pressure. And I'm aware that this "experiment" might come across as a little arrogant- apologies if it does, I'm not trying to shine any light on myself, or show just how "easy" a marathon can be. Its hard no matter who is doing it, if they're doing their best, and I applaud anyone who leaves nothing on the course, whether you finish in 2:05 or 5:05. The real purpose is to have a pointer for when people ask "I've missed weeks in training/not done the long runs, and its taper time, what do I do?". One way or another, I hope this log will show what happens if you don't follow the usual advice.

Kurt Godel

Date|Scheduled (miles)|Comment
Wed 10th|18|19.2 ran, in about 3:10. Tough for the last two miles, no gels or water taken. Cool, damp, trail|
Thurs 11th|Cross/Easy|1,250m swim. I was very achy and stiff getting up this morning, the swim has helped massively. Non-impact, flush the muscles.|
Fri 12th|5 easy||
Sat 13th|5 easy/Cross||
Sun 14th|13 easy||
Mon 15th|Cross||
Tues 16th|8 steady||
Wed 17th|6 steady||
Thurs 18th|Cross||
Fri 19th|18 lsr||
Sat 20th|5 easy/Cross||
Sun 21nd|6 easy||
Mon 22nd|6 easy||
Tues 23rd|13 steady/easy||
Wed 24th|5 easy/Cross||
Thurs 25th|8 steady||
Fri 26th|5 easy/Cross||
Sat 27th|Cross||
Sun 28th|Cross||
Mon 29th|Marathon||

Krusty_Clown

kit3 wrote: »

Hi,
I'm female (not that that's really relevant but anyway...). My main query was really around the length of LSR you would recommend this weekend given that it's only two weeks out. Would have liked to get another 20 in but feel it may be pushing it this close and am vereing towards 15/18. I've missed the last two LSR's but that's all. I've no intention of being stupid about this. If the niggle isn't cleared I won't be doing DCM - would be devastated but won't risk maybe not being able to run for months, that would kill me. Would really welcome your opinion. Thanks C

Sorry kit3, I'm getting your username mixed up with someone else I know (possibly kit2 or kit1!). Your case is a little different from Kurt's in that you are recovering from injury, whereas Kurt is pretty much permanently injured, and in his situation it's just a question of degrees of injury. Best thing you can do is aim for a LSR as long and as slow as possible, at least 10 days out from the marathon. So if you set out to run 15, and there is no sign of worsening injury, then do another two. If you still feel good, add on another two. If you still feel good, add on another mile to make 20. If you feel wrecked tired, try to push through it, but at the earliest sign of injury, call it a day. Do small loops, and keep them close to your house. Sorry for the hijack Kurt.

Kurt Godel

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Sorry for the hijack Kurt.

Don't be at all- in the absence of an "Ask Unckie Gary" thread...:)

Very sound advice about adding as you go. I intended running 15 yesterday, felt good, added 2 more, felt good, added two more. Died on those last two, which sort of lets me know where my legs will give up (and will push back that point a couple of miles for the next LSR).