3 weeks training schedule for sub 4 marathon

Pacing Mule

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi Pageant Messiah, you've got to stop taking this stuff personally. It's not aimed at you. If someone makes a comment about 5+ hour runners, they are illustrating a point rather than trying to run down 5+ hour runners (though Kurt did generalize a little). It's the same thing as 3 hour runners illustrating a point using four hour runners as an example. And the same as 2:30 runners, making a point about three hour runners. And 2:15 runners talking about the training habits of 2:30 runners and it goes on.

By the way, if I had started running in January, and suffered the same injury as you, I too would be looking at a 5+ hour marathon. I reckon in the same situation, my better half would have been looking at a six hour marathon. But neither of us ran a marathon until we had a couple of years of running (10ks and 1/2 marathons) under our respective belts. So before holding up the banner for 5+ hour marathon runners, you've got to ask yourself - are you doing the right thing? Are you really a 5+ hour runner, or are you actually an under-prepared four hour runner?

Points taken.

Quick edit - Sorry to all if I jumped the gun / took a generalisation personally. I'm in fighting form just to get to the start line so perhaps it is rubbing off the wrong way.

Pacing Mule

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Fine- I'm not willing to celebrate 5hr+ marathons, and I don't think much of the training efforts that have gone into them. That's my educated opinion. I'm not asking you to subscribe to this point of view, you can view your achievements as you like.

Maybe it's best if we agree to disagree so. If I see you in McGrattans afterwards I promise not to resurrect the debate.

Kurt Godel

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

Maybe it's best if we agree to disagree so. If I see you in McGrattans afterwards I promise not to resurrect the debate.

Yeah no hassle mate, it's be a very boring world if everyone agreed with me. Krusty the Diplomat put my point better than I was. In any case, best of luck on Monday.

BeepBeep67

Hey PJ don't get lost over in the TAD forum, you're great craic when you've a bee in your bonnet. Won't make it in on Monday, enjoy the ride.

myflipflops

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Are you really a 5+ hour runner, or are you actually an under-prepared four hour runner?

Great turn of phrase.

I firmly believe there is almost no man on this forum that is not just an under-prepared sub 3 runner. Most of them quicker than that.

rasher_m

Hi there, just wondering if you care to share what your nutrition plan for monday is? I seen your plan there for delaying the wall.

rasher_m

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi Pageant Messiah, you've got to stop taking this stuff personally. It's not aimed at you. If someone makes a comment about 5+ hour runners, they are illustrating a point rather than trying to run down 5+ hour runners (though Kurt did generalize a little). It's the same thing as 3 hour runners illustrating a point using four hour runners as an example. And the same as 2:30 runners, making a point about three hour runners. And 2:15 runners talking about the training habits of 2:30 runners and it goes on.

By the way, if I had started running in January, and suffered the same injury as you, I too would be looking at a 5+ hour marathon. I reckon in the same situation, my better half would have been looking at a six hour marathon. But neither of us ran a marathon until we had a couple of years of running (10ks and 1/2 marathons) under our respective belts. So before holding up the banner for 5+ hour marathon runners, you've got to ask yourself - are you doing the right thing? Are you really a 5+ hour runner, or are you actually an under-prepared four hour runner?

I get an earfull of this from me dad all the time...a sub 3 hr runner in his time stemming from a league of ireland football background and me trying for 4.15 stemming from a 20 fag a day background. there really is no way i can take it personally anyway. Were poles apart. he'll be clapping me on the day thinking about me being off the fags if nothing else.

Kurt Godel

rasher_m wrote: »

Hi there, just wondering if you care to share what your nutrition plan for monday is? I seen your plan there for delaying the wall.

Sure-although bear in mind I've used this before, might not work for everyone. I ran 17 miles a couple of weeks ago, before the wheels came off, legs tightened up. This is caused by the body running out of glycogen stores, and it starts to metabolize the less efficient fat stores for primary fuel. So the long run has staved off this point for a couple of miles, and I'll be taking isotonic gels every 3 miles from 8 miles in, alternating with a nutrigrain bar or Snickers bar for when I can't stomach the gels anymore. Keep topping up your glycogen stores, and you can jog efficiently all day. Works for me anyway (but I've puked my ring up too, by taking the wrong gels/too many/ etc).

Pacing Mule

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Sure-although bear in mind I've used this before, might not work for everyone. I ran 17 miles a couple of weeks ago, before the wheels came off, legs tightened up. This is caused by the body running out of glycogen stores, and it starts to metabolize the less efficient fat stores for primary fuel. So the long run has staved off this point for a couple of miles, and I'll be taking isotonic gels every 3 miles from 8 miles in, alternating with a nutrigrain bar or Snickers bar for when I can't stomach the gels anymore. Keep topping up your glycogen stores, and you can jog efficiently all day. Works for me anyway (but I've puked my ring up too, by taking the wrong gels/too many/ etc).

Would fruit / bananas in particular top up glycogen as much as a gel / bar ?

Oryx

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Sure-although bear in mind I've used this before, might not work for everyone. I ran 17 miles a couple of weeks ago, before the wheels came off, legs tightened up. This is caused by the body running out of glycogen stores, and it starts to metabolize the less efficient fat stores for primary fuel. So the long run has staved off this point for a couple of miles, and I'll be taking isotonic gels every 3 miles from 8 miles in, alternating with a nutrigrain bar or Snickers bar for when I can't stomach the gels anymore. Keep topping up your glycogen stores, and you can jog efficiently all day. Works for me anyway (but I've puked my ring up too, by taking the wrong gels/too many/ etc).

I hear ya on the too many gels. But if I was to try and eat chocolate on a run I would be sicker than a sick thing. Nutrition is has to be tailored to the individual. Interesting that you suggest eating far more than I normally would tho.

drquirky

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

Would fruit / bananas in particular top up glycogen as much as a gel / bar ?

Honestly PM- the least of your problems on the day is gonna be if an extra piece of fruit tops up your glycogen stores...Because you haven't trained for this race, your stores will be well depleted very early thus leaving you with a few hours of misery slogging through the streets of Dublin- I wish this weren't the case but this is what happens when people don't train for a marathon...

Pacing Mule

drquirky wrote: »

Honestly PM- the least of your problems on the day is gonna be if an extra piece of fruit tops up your glycogen stores...Because you haven't trained for this race, your stores will be well depleted very early thus leaving you with a few hours of misery slogging through the streets of Dublin- I wish this weren't the case but this is what happens when people don't train for a marathon...

With the greatest of respect due to your experience I wasn't asking from the point of view of changing my race day nutrition strategy. I will be taking a mixture of gels and bananas (running on a hungry / totally empty stomach doesn't sit well with me and I find that gels although give an energy boost don't satisfy a hunger) I've never come across anyone with a race strategy that involves a snickers bar (a heavyish food that most people would avoid mid race) I was just wondering how it stacked up against bananas fuel wise. My own race preparation - or lack of it as the case may be wasn't in the equation.

shotgunmcos

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

With the greatest of respect due to your experience I wasn't asking from the point of view of changing my race day nutrition strategy. I will be taking a mixture of gels and bananas (running on a hungry / totally empty stomach doesn't sit well with me and I find that gels although give an energy boost don't satisfy a hunger) I've never come across anyone with a race strategy that involves a snickers bar (a heavyish food that most people would avoid mid race) I was just wondering how it stacked up against bananas fuel wise. My own race preparation - or lack of it as the case may be wasn't in the equation.

Hey to be honest if you are going to be out there for 5+ hours and walking most of it, it makes little difference what kcals you injest. I ran my first marathon with mars bars tucked into my shorts and was fine. As they say ignorance is bliss! I've read a
Lot of your log too and would agree with the view of the many experienced and well respected posters who have contributed. The one thing that stands out to me is that even your family think this is a bad idea. Trust me, one day in the future their support will be worth its weight in gold... Kurt apologies if not right to post here, can move this to PMs log if you like

Kurt Godel

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

I've never come across anyone with a race strategy that involves a snickers bar (a heavyish food that most people would avoid mid race)

If I was racing, I wouldn't go near anything heavier than gels or fluids. This will just be time-on-my-feet pace, hence the snickers (solid food has worked for me in the past). The point is, I've done plenty of experimenting, and know what works and what doesn't.

*Edit* The reason for this is, during intense exercise (>70% of aerobic capacity), the stomach gets only 20% of its normal blood flow; during moderate-intensity exercise, the blood flow is 60-70% of normal, so digestion may be fairly good (e.g. for recreational marathon and ultra-marathoners). So your digestive abilities are an inverse function of your intensity effort levels.

Dory Dory

Have fun on Monday!! Rumor has it Marthastew heard about your picnic idea and made Guiness bread to share on the run. Maybe you can get digger to pull the cooler containing ice cold drinks since he's been constantly complaining about the slow pace he's going to have to keep on Monday. Enjoy the 26.2!!

Kurt Godel

DM 4:14:55

I didn't get out for any runs over the last few days. (Barring one very enjoyable 3 mile run around the midnight street of Dublin last night, after a fair bit of "lubrication").

There's no way I'd allow someone normally to pace the DM with my lack of training, but I had to fill a gap at short notice, and was confident of getting around with the other 4:15 pacers. I was nervous on the start line, wondering would I be found wanting during the run? Any perceived niggles disappeared once the run was underway, and we trotted out with a huge bunch of pacees for the first few miles.

Miles 1-19 were slow and steady, and really no huge effort. Took my first isotonic gel at 8 miles, and every three miles after. Sipped from water bottles. (No issues from the full Irish breakfast sitting in my tummy). The Clonskeagh drag didn't seem too bad.

Took my last gel at 20, then up the hill at Roebuck. A little effort needed here, but more needed to keep the pace steady on the downhill. I got to 23 and could have done with another gel. I decided not to take any of the solid food I had, to slow to metabolize anyway. At 24 my arms got that icy feeling that tell you pain is coming, and at 25 I weighed up the pros and cons of DNF'ing, just for a few seconds. The final mile was full of energy as you realize the end is close. A little showboating with my pacer flag, and over the line.

My legs don't feel as tight as usual, no real issues during the race. This was the longest, and most road surface, run in my minimal shoes, so another concern was how they would perform for the larger gentleman. As it transpired, my fett are a little sore on the sole, but joints etc feel good. Had I not been pacing, I could have gone under 4 hours without much extra effort (sometimes forcing yourself to run slow can be harder than running free). I might have got close to 3:45, but not without difficulty, and the increased possibility of failure. Anything quicker, who knows, thats the lap of the gods stuff. Without a doubt though, I'd suffer- you can't run anything but a slow marathon without the right training, and getting the body stressed and used to long runs. I enjoyed today, am glad I ran, and that I took the gamble to run.

Izoard

Kurt Godel wrote: »

DM 4:14:55

I didn't get out for any runs over the last few days. (Barring one very enjoyable 3 mile run around the midnight street of Dublin last night, after a fair bit of "lubrication").

Talk about glossing over the highlight of this log - I'm very interested in the details (nutrition etc...) of this final prep run, plus your post run eh, "hydration", so close to the the main event.

Dory Dory

Izoard wrote: »

Talk about glossing over the highlight of this log - I'm very interested in the details (nutrition etc...) of this final prep run, plus your post run eh, "hydration", so close to the the main event.

+1 ^^^

And just so you know, I kept tabs on you to make sure you hadn't blown up enroute to the finish. Well done considering all that you did and did not do leading up to this race.

theboyblunder

Well done P. Fair play for stepping in.

Tempted to have a proper crack at another one now?

Kurt Godel

Dory Dory wrote: »

+1 ^^^

And just so you know, I kept tabs on you to make sure you hadn't blown up enroute to the finish. Well done considering all that you did and did not do leading up to this race.

More detail on the bold-boy annexed forum;) Thats where I feel at home now.

Although I have to say, I've been dissing the backslappery on this AR forum for a while now, but there are some things that it does very well, and one of them is having a community of runners of all abilities, that offer themselves to pace for DM, and do a great job. Its very friendly, and its obvious from all the "Go Boards" shouts today (I wore my Boards AC singlet) that there's a real cameraderie about this forum.

Kurt Godel

theboyblunder wrote: »

Well done P. Fair play for stepping in.

Tempted to have a proper crack at another one now?

Not really tbh. I'd only run another marathon for a sub3 and thats a lot of running training that I've tried before and failed at. I'm getting better bang for my buck from swimming, so will keep the focus on Tri for a while. But who knows, that might lead to something else... its all about mixing it up, and having fun while you do so, and at the moment I'm having fun splashing about and looking at shiny bikes.

BeepBeep67

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Not really tbh. I'd only run another marathon for a sub3 and thats a lot of running training that I've tried before and failed at. I'm getting better bang for my buck from swimming, so will keep the focus on Tri for a while. But who knows, that might lead to something else... its all about mixing it up, and having fun while you do so, and at the moment I'm having fun splashing about and looking at shiny bikes.

Not even after a long swim and a 112 mile bike?