Why is Ireland still so expensive to live in?

davet82

Ireland is the fifth most expensive country in the EU, with consumers paying 17 per cent more than the EU average, a new Central Statistics Office report has found.

Since we were ranked the second most expensive country to live in, in 2008, should prices not be coming down faster now the country is broke?

seamus

The state is broke, but most people aren't.

We have a stupidly high level of personal savings. The cost of living is still high because people are still well paid on average, so can still afford the higher prices of goods.

Pacing Mule

seamus wrote: »

The state is broke, but most people aren't.

We have a stupidly high level of personal savings. The cost of living is still high because people are still well paid on average, so can still afford the higher prices of goods.

The higher wage levels are a higher cost in everything produced and service provided in the country. If we were being paid the wage levels of the cheaper countries our prices wouldn't be as high. Bit of a vicious circle.

davet82

seamus wrote: »

The state is broke, but most people aren't.

We have a stupidly high level of personal savings. The cost of living is still high because people are still well paid on average, so can still afford the higher prices of goods.

so wage cuts is the answer?

i'm sorry i asked now :pac:

super_furry

The main expense that most people have is rent/their mortgage. This is not going to decrease any time soon because of the stupidly high mortgages people took out in the past decade. Either they're stuck paying them or have to rent out their properties to people who will have to pay a stupidly high rent because of the mortgage and because the government's rent allowance system keeps rents artificially high.

seamus

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

The higher wage levels are a higher cost in everything produced and service provided in the country. If we were being paid the wage levels of the cheaper countries our prices wouldn't be as high. Bit of a vicious circle.

We also have high transport and energy costs, partially due to higher wages, but also down to duties and taxes.

The cost of living is actually relatively complex, but I would expect Ireland even in a stable & happy economy to be one of the most expensive places to live, primarily because we're an island with a small and well spread out population.

While cities individually tend to be expensive (because space is at a premium), it's the countries with small populations that tend overall to be more expensive because they have to import more goods, and it costs more to import smaller quantities of such goods.

Dodge

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

Bit of a vicious circle.

Thats it. Wages have come down significantly, particularly in the public sector.

Inflation has eased, but the cost of basics goods hasn't come down at all. Some 'luxury' items are now cheaper than 4/5 years ago but that masks the fact that the stuff required to live on hasn't come down

So we're left with many items costing the same as 4/5 years and many people having less income to spend. So economy stagnates.

Can't decrease wages much further as economy will shrink even further

Go on boards, flame away...

eth0

seamus wrote: »

The state is broke, but most people aren't.

We have a stupidly high level of personal savings. The cost of living is still high because people are still well paid on average, so can still afford the higher prices of goods.

We have a stupidly high level of personal debt.

Fizman

seamus wrote: »

The state is broke, but most people aren't.

We have a stupidly high level of personal savings. The cost of living is still high because people are still well paid on average, so can still afford the higher prices of goods.

I would be very grateful if you pointed me in the direction of my stupidly high personal savings account.

Thank you in advance.

donegal_road

I find Ireland to be better value for certain things than countries like Canada, Denmark and the UK for example. It is all relative, for example a box of 25 cigarettes in Canada (Ontario) is $16 Can, which is approx €13. Petrol in Canada is approx $1.35 Can which is very good value until you have to drive twice the distance to get from A to B.
Petrol in the UK has been more expensive than ROI up until now, and the difference is still only marginal. Groceries have become expensive up North (for certain things) yet wage levels remain considerably lower than in the Republic.

Booze from an off license is cheaper up North, but more expensive in Canada and Denmark than it is here. Going to the pub in Canada is considerably more expensive than here.

Fizman

donegal_road wrote: »

I find Ireland to be better value for certain things than countries like Canada, Denmark and the UK for example. It is all relative, for example a box of 25 cigarettes in Canada (Ontario) is $16 Can, which is approx €13. Petrol in Canada is approx $1.35 Can which is very good value until you have to drive twice the distance to get from A to B.
Petrol in the UK has been more expensive than ROI up until now, and the difference is still only marginal. Groceries have become expensive up North (for certain things) yet wage levels remain considerably lower than in the Republic.

Booze from an off license is cheaper up North, but more expensive in Canada and Denmark than it is here. Going to the pub in Canada is considerably more expensive than here.

Not too sure I get your point here, can you elaborate?

donegal_road

Fizman wrote: »

Not too sure I get your point here, can you elaborate?

I lived in Toronto, there were people who drove more than 2 hours to get to work in the morning, and you are still considered to be in the Greater Toronto Area (gta)

Fighting Irish

donegal_road wrote: »

I lived in Toronto, there were people who drove more than 2 hours to get to work in the morning, and you are still considered to be in the Greater Toronto Area (gta)

lol

celtictiger32

can someone lend me a euro 20euro

Fizman

donegal_road wrote: »

I lived in Toronto, there were people who drove more than 2 hours to get to work in the morning, and you are still considered to be in the Greater Toronto Area (gta)

My friend, what you are referring to there is A to D. Think of it as A to B, but around twice the distance.

A to B still exists in Canada. (As does A to D in Ireland).

RADIUS

celtictiger32 wrote: »

can someone lend me a euro 20euro

One of these might be able to help you out;

http://www.ecb.int/home/html/index.en.html

http://www.imf.org/external/index.htm

tayto lover

seamus wrote: »

The state is broke, but most people aren't.

We have a stupidly high level of personal savings. The cost of living is still high because people are still well paid on average, so can still afford the higher prices of goods.

We have a stupid high level of dopey politicians you mean.
Where is the evidence of high savings among the working population. The high savers are also the rich, well protected friends of the high and mighty. You talk some tosh when standing up for the the stupidity of the party you love.

Mikros

Ireland's Household debt levels are 64.8% above the euro area average. Overall our total real economic debt runs at a 524% of our GDP and 650% of our GNP. We're number 1 there.

That means it is very difficult to reduce wages as a lot of people are servicing this debt. High wages feed into higher cost of living. Cutting wages would reduce costs but the debt will remain the same (and in fact continue to grow with the interest) reducing further the amount of money in circulation. The government is borrowing billions to keep the economy propped up through social welfare and public service pay.

In the absence of either sustained growth or inflation or defaults it will all break down eventually.

Hidalgo

tayto lover wrote: »

We have a stupid high level of dopey politicians you mean.
Where is the evidence of high savings among the working population. The high savers are also the rich, well protected friends of the high and mighty. You talk some tosh when standing up for the the stupidity of the party you love.

Are our politicians any more dopey than other EU states?? Is it simply dopey politicians that caused fiscal problems in Spain, Greece, Italy etc??

tayto lover

Hidalgo wrote: »

Are our politicians any more dopey than other EU states?? Is it simply dopey politicians that caused fiscal problems in Spain, Greece, Italy etc??

Just as bad if not worse i'd say. Did you ever watch the antics from the Dail and all the fake bickering. We have far too many highly paid parasites of politicians who are only in the job to self-serve.

books4sale

The high cost of living these days has a lot to do with the high cost of energy and fuel, being an island that imports practically everything doesn't help.

The policies of the government don't help much either welcoming huge multinationals with open arms (which is fine) but failing to support small fledgling homegrown businesses that could eventually have massive potential.

Celly Smunt

donegal_road wrote: »

I find Ireland to be better value for certain things than countries like Canada, Denmark and the UK for example. It is all relative, for example a box of 25 cigarettes in Canada (Ontario) is $16 Can, which is approx €13. Petrol in Canada is approx $1.35 Can which is very good value until you have to drive twice the distance to get from A to B.


Booze from an off license is cheaper up North, but more expensive in Canada and Denmark than it is here. Going to the pub in Canada is considerably more expensive than here.

First of all,where the hell are you buying your cigarettes that cost $16.The motorway system in Ontario is a fine system,you can go twice the distance in in the same time compared to Ireland because people know how to use the thing.Traffic is subtle as the towns are well planned also.Therefore travelling distances isn't too bad at all.

As for booze,you must buy your pints in the same place you buy your smokes.

seamus

tayto lover wrote: »

We have a stupid high level of dopey politicians you mean.
Where is the evidence of high savings among the working population. The high savers are also the rich, well protected friends of the high and mighty. You talk some tosh when standing up for the the stupidity of the party you love.

What party, what are you talking about? Are you so completely blinded by your prejudice that you need to stick people into little boxes?

How about you present some links to counter what I've said instead of bleating on about "de ordinairy wurkers" and "dem der rich feckers wot did ruin are cuntry"?

eth0

seamus wrote: »

What party, what are you talking about? Are you so completely blinded by your prejudice that you need to stick people into little boxes?

How about you present some links to counter what I've said instead of bleating on about "de ordinairy wurkers" and "dem der rich feckers wot did ruin are cuntry"?

You didn't provide any links yourself either. Looks like you'd rather come up with a little condescending dig at another poster than go through that trouble

seamus

eth0 wrote: »

You didn't provide any links yourself either. Looks like you'd rather come up with a little condescending dig at another poster than go through that trouble

Wow, it's wagon-circling time here in AH I see.
Report from the beginning of 2012: http://www.mii.ie/uploads/ConsumerMarketMonitor_2012_Q1.pdf

The level of personal saving in Ireland increased dramatically over the past three years, from a low of 3 % of disposable income in 2007 to a high of 12 % in 2010. The average for the past decade has been 5.4%.
The household savings ratio was 13% in 2011 and it is not expected to reduce much in the next few years as consumers prioritise repaying personal loans and mortgage debt over current spending.

From July this year: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0727/1224320883450.html

Of course, the rebuttal will be claims of biase and propaganda, and "the Irish Times and UCD are in Enda Kenny's pocket".

dvpower

seamus wrote: »

Of course, the rebuttal will be claims of biase and propaganda, and "the Irish Times and UCD are in Enda Kenny's pocket".

The CSO figures (for example here and here) show strong household savings.

Naturally, I don't expect CSO figures to be accepted by many of the usual suspects, being as they are under the control of the blueshirts. :eek:

Islander13

pmcmahon wrote: »

First of all,where the hell are you buying your cigarettes that cost $16.The motorway system in Ontario is a fine system,you can go twice the distance in in the same time compared to Ireland because people know how to use the thing.Traffic is subtle as the towns are well planned also.Therefore travelling distances isn't too bad at all.

As for booze,you must buy your pints in the same place you buy your smokes.

people know how to use the thing you say. We don't know how to use roads here? Hmm. I find an hour on the motorway in one country equates to an hour anywhere else pretty much though maybe I'm missing something

donegal_road

pmcmahon wrote: »

First of all,where the hell are you buying your cigarettes that cost $16.The motorway system in Ontario is a fine system,you can go twice the distance in in the same time compared to Ireland because people know how to use the thing.Traffic is subtle as the towns are well planned also.Therefore travelling distances isn't too bad at all.

As for booze,you must buy your pints in the same place you buy your smokes.

Ok, I know that you can pay up to $15 Can for the more expensive smokes, my point about the road system was that because Canada is a much more spread out country, you tend to cover larger distances therefore you use more gas, even though gas is cheaper than in Ireland etc.

When I drank in my local in Toronto back in 2003, a pint of Guinness was $8, a pint of Honey Brown or Nut Brown was $6.50, I can only image that it would have risen in price 9 years later.

You can still get 3 Guinness at my local here for €10, and I know thats an exception because it is Donegal. There are quite a few pubs in Dublin that do €4 per pint.

Rabidlamb

davet82 wrote: »

Since we were ranked the second most expensive country to live in, in 2008, should prices not be coming down faster now the country is broke?

OP, the cost of living is high in Ireland as there's a protected group of 300,000 who earn €15k more a year than the average citizen.

petersburg2002

davet82 wrote: »

Since we were ranked the second most expensive country to live in, in 2008, should prices not be coming down faster now the country is broke?

I think the CSO also stated that inflation had hardly budged in 5 years. So that should help. I have noticed that hotel prices (especially in Dublin) are much cheaper than a few years ago. Electrical items also seem to be much cheaper. And diesel and petrol are now cheaper than in Northern ireland. Food is still crazily expensive though.

dvpower

petersburg2002 wrote: »

I think the CSO also stated that inflation had hardly budged in 5 years. So that should help. I have noticed that hotel prices (especially in Dublin) are much cheaper than a few years ago. Electrical items also seem to be much cheaper. And diesel and petrol are now cheaper than in Northern ireland. Food is still crazily expensive though.

That's probably about right according to this.

We had the second lowest inflation in the EU at the start of the year according to the CSO.

petersburg2002

dvpower wrote: »

That's probably about right according to this.

We had the second lowest inflation in the EU at the start of the year according to the CSO.

Let's hope it stays that way. Might even be able to get that 50" Plasma TV is prices keep going in the right direction!

seamus

petersburg2002 wrote: »

Let's hope it stays that way. Might even be able to get that 50" Plasma TV is prices keep going in the right direction!

I wouldn't hold out too much hope. Luxury imported goods tend to be fairly static, inflation generally linked to staples like milk, bread and alcohol.

If anything, low inflation for us is more like the 80s and people will be trying to eek 3 or 4 years out of that iPhone rather than a new upgrade every year

tayto lover

seamus wrote: »

What party, what are you talking about? Are you so completely blinded by your prejudice that you need to stick people into little boxes?

How about you present some links to counter what I've said instead of bleating on about "de ordinairy wurkers" and "dem der rich feckers wot did ruin are cuntry"?

1. Cronyism worse than under F.F.
2. More paid to advisers and even breaking their own pay scales.
3. New quangos since election.
4. Seanad still in existence.
5. Five point plan ???
6. Your party's rich pals paying fcuk all still in taxes.
Need I go on.

Meanwhile the same people being taxed to the hilt and expected to pay even more for the pleasures of your lot.
You still wearing the blinkers and being led by the ears while still voting like daddy did.

seamus

tayto lover wrote: »

1. Cronyism worse than under F.F.
2. More paid to advisers and even breaking their own pay scales.
3. New quangos since election.
4. Seanad still in existence.
5. Five point plan ???
6. Your party's rich pals paying fcuk all still in taxes.
Need I go on.

Meanwhile the same people being taxed to the hilt and expected to pay even more for the pleasures of your lot.
You still wearing the blinkers and being led by the ears while still voting like daddy did.

None of your post has anything whatsoever to do with this thread. I don't have any allegiance to any particular party.
My Dad was a FF man through and through btw, since his father was secretary to one of the early FF Taoisigh. I've never voted for FF.

So take your own blinkers off and stop assuming that everyone who disagrees with you is instantly a lifetime blueshirt or a civil servant. It completely devalues all of your posts.

Any road, on topic, I had a look at the topic of personal debt, and personal debt is actually declining at a relatively fast rate in this country. This is largely down to two main factors:

- Banks aren't lending, despite the political claims that they are
- People are going without rather than borrowing.

But people are mortgaged to the hilt, how is personal debt dropping? Simply, because a mortgage is always a debt the underpinning asset's value is irrelevant when calculating personal debt. So that €300k mortgage taken out 3 years ago, is still a €300k mortgage. That the person is in negative equity is irrelevant, their actual level of debt hasn't changed.

Total personal wealth is still dropping, because this is a measure of how much cash someone would have if you liquidised their assets tomorrow. But despite our previous notions about the value of land, we know that there is little relation between personal wealth and fiscal solvency. I, for example, have a personal wealth that's well into the six figures (negatively). But I still have disposable income.
Another man could be sitting on €100k of personal wealth, but be living hand-to-mouth.
So ignore personal wealth (i.e. the value of people's homes) when determining if someone is in OK shape, financially.

What this country will be facing in the future is a situation where we have a cash-poor government and a cash-rich population. Rather odd scenario, but even at that stage you can't drain people for what they're worth or they'll move their money away. You have to encourage them to spend their money and the state then creams off the top in taxes.

Fizman

seamus wrote: »

Any road, on topic, I had a look at the topic of personal debt, and personal debt is actually declining at a relatively fast rate in this country. This is largely down to two main factors:

- Banks aren't lending, despite the political claims that they are
- People are going without rather than borrowing.

Not entirely true re banks not lending. I recently (2 months ago) got a loan approved, and a mate of mine has gotten another approved in the last few days. Granted, the process involved a lot of detailed questions regarding what it will be used for.

Maybe the amounts have dropped considerably and the criteria to become a borrower is much stricter, but there is money still to be had in cases.

B.A._Baracus

I think greed is the number 1 reason why this place is so expensive.
Like sure if we go back to the celtic tiger days people had money to spend, jobs were there.... of course the price of goods and services were raised.

But theres no excuse now. How come things havent dropped to a reasonable and competitive rate since recession? Its greed. Wanting to still get that "boom price" for things.

Sure the average strategy by businesses has been to rise prices since recession. God forbid an business could lower its prices and potentially make more money through increased consumers.

davet82

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Sure the average strategy by businesses has been to rise prices since recession. God forbid an business could lower its prices and potentially make more money through increased consumers.

Thats what i always think!

The VAT rate for example would it not have been better to lower it and increase spending than to higher it and murder cofindence?

BraziliaNZ

How anyone could have any allegience to any party in Ireland is beyond me, after the way they've managed the place. Anyway, it seems to me that in Ireland, when business is bad, they sack people and put prices UP to compensate for lack of business, instead of reducing costs and making things more competitive. E.g. pubs.

Larbre34

A lot of digressing going on!

Ireland isn't expensive to live in, at least relatively. Goods are more expensive than in other countries, but wages and welfare rates in Ireland are still much higher than the comparison states, even allowing for the correction since the downturn, so affordability is reasonable. If someone on the average salary in Spain or Greece came to live here on that same salary they would not be able to do it - so we are perceived as very expensive

We complain about cherry picked arguments where we are being ripped off like prescription medicines in Spain or cars being cheaper in Britain and so on, but food and clothing here is cheaper than other countries (albeit still a big cost) and our motor fuel is much cheaper than Ive seen in continental countries in the last month as it has increased everywhere in the last 6 years, and our housing costs are lower - buying a home is still a common aspiration, it wouldnt even be contemplated as affordable in many countries.

The whole world is economically in the toilet so we naturally bemoan the financial pressures on us, but if you live and work or get welfare benefits here I would argue you are still getting a better standard of living than many other countries that we are compared to.

books4sale

petersburg2002 wrote: »

Food is still crazily expensive though.

...and what? You don't think it costs energy and fuel to produce food :rolleyes:

Allied with this seasonal food stocks are getting wiped out around the planet with the progression of climate change, yes global warming is a fact!

Look at the level of destruction caused in Amercia this Summer due to drought and this where the media concentrated all their efforts. The same problems faced Europe and Asia.

On a smaller scale, Ireland had one of the wettest Summers on record, only in the dying hours could it be said that farmers were able to harvest the crop.

As climate change worsens, expect food to become more expensive while more and more taxes are ploughed into combating its effects with new technology.

Its a vicious cycle!