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Bad reference?

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  • 11-10-2012 7:53pm
    #1
    Wanderer2010
    Registered Users Posts: 6,740 ✭✭✭


    Im enquiring on behalf of my mate, who has a highly skilled job in engineering sector. He has been looking around for another job and got 2 interviews, but thing is the boss doesnt like him and he doesnt like the boss so my question is can a boss legally give a bad reference to a potential employer by saying "Oh he has bad attitude, not very reliable etc etc"? because they have had a few run ins and he is 100% convinced this guy will knock him just for spite, can he actually do this and is there any way around it. He has been in his current job 2 and a half years.


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    #2
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭bbam


    The official line is No he can't as it opens up a whole legal snakes nest... However the truth of what happens is sometimes very different... If I were called personally over the phone I have told the truth about an employee, as I have been told the same by other managers.. I doubt you'll ever see hard written bad references though..

    Then I know managers who give glowing references for people just to get them off the payroll...I think that's the worst of all.


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    #3
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,316 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    A) Yes he can give "bad" references but need to back it up
    B) You need to prove in a court he gave a unjustified reference if you'd ever try to take it anywhere
    C) Get someone else in the company to give the reference instead


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    #4
    Mr Carrot
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8 ✭Mr Carrot


    Wanderer2010 wrote: »
    Im enquiring on behalf of my mate, who has a highly skilled job in engineering sector. He has been looking around for another job and got 2 interviews, but thing is the boss doesnt like him and he doesnt like the boss so my question is can a boss legally give a bad reference to a potential employer by saying "Oh he has bad attitude, not very reliable etc etc"? because they have had a few run ins and he is 100% convinced this guy will knock him just for spite, can he actually do this and is there any way around it. He has been in his current job 2 and a half years.
    Is this other person you in fact? And perhaps your attitude in work does stink ?


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    #5
    Irish_Elect_Eng
    Registered Users Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭Irish_Elect_Eng


    Employers rarely give detailed bad references and almost never write them down if they do....

    ....but from my experience there are many simple "coded" ways of passing the do not hire message alone to the potential employer.

    The classic one is, at the end of a reference the person seeking the reference will ask:

    "Would you hire this person again in the future, a yes/no answer will suffice?."

    or

    "Do you think that the candidate has the potential to excel in this role, a yes/no answer will suffice?."

    A simple No to either of these or similar questions and the reference is complete and the candidate has missed the opportunity.

    And in cases like this the referee does not have to back up the statement in any way that could get them into trouble.

    But, on the other side, references from current employers are rarely sought as they can be deliberate biased to keep the employee in the company. I would never offer my current employer as a reference. (Perhaps a colleague at your current employer if you do not have any other references, but certainly not someone that would be impacted negatively by your departure)


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    #6
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,316 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    You can answer both of those questions with a yes; you simply wait 20s before saying yes which gives the same message and you'd be hardpressed to prove he gave a bad reference...


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    #7
    Irish_Elect_Eng
    Registered Users Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭Irish_Elect_Eng


    Nody wrote: »
    You can answer both of those questions with a yes; you simply wait 20s before saying yes which gives the same message and you'd be hardpressed to prove he gave a bad reference...

    LOL....I have heard that method also :-)


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    #8
    mood
    Registered Users Posts: 4,264 ✭✭✭mood


    Surely the boss would give him a good reference to get rid of him!


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    #9
    Irish_Elect_Eng
    Registered Users Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭Irish_Elect_Eng


    mood wrote: »
    Surely the boss would give him a good reference to get rid of him!

    It's a small country, as a manager you bump into many other managers in your own industry at conferences, shows, training etc. Giving an false-positive reference can come back to bite you... :-(


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    #10
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭bbam


    mood wrote: »
    Surely the boss would give him a good reference to get rid of him!

    I know managers who do it... But I think its the worst thing, pure lazy.


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    #11
    mood
    Registered Users Posts: 4,264 ✭✭✭mood


    Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »
    It's a small country, as a manager you bump into many other managers in your own industry at conferences, shows, training etc. Giving an false-positive reference can come back to bite you... :-(

    I don't mean that a manager should lie. That would obviously be wrong and unprofessional. I mean if he is happy with the guy work but just doesn't like him as a person he could leave out that bit (provided it never interfered with his work) and it would mean he would get rid of him.


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    #12
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,967 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    mood wrote: »
    Surely the boss would give him a good reference to get rid of him!

    Maybe.

    If possible, the OPs mate should look his boss in the eye and say something like

    "Look: you don't like me, and I'm not happy here. It should be no surprise to you that I'm job hunting, and I'm sure we'll both be happier ones I find somewhere to go. But I need to know if I can count of you to give a reference that will help me get another job."


    As someone said ... lying is bad. But there are lots of ways that the truth can be told, and especially if there's a personality conflict, rather than professional competence issues, involved then a negotiated truce can be a good thing.


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    #13
    mood
    Registered Users Posts: 4,264 ✭✭✭mood


    Also I think a boss can give a bad reference once he/she is telling the truth. I would think that a personal dislike for an employee wouldn't justify giving a bad reference. Maybe a recruitment agency your friend is using could ring his boss to see what he is saying about him.


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    #14
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Don't ask him. There are plenty of people in any company that can provide you with a reference so put someone elses contact details down in the reference section. If they have worked with you they ccan give a potential employer your positive attributes.


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    #15
    mood
    Registered Users Posts: 4,264 ✭✭✭mood


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Don't ask him. There are plenty of people in any company that can provide you with a reference so put someone elses contact details down in the reference section. If they have worked with you they ccan give a potential employer your positive attributes.

    Yes. Or if there is a HR dept put them down for reference. I think most people put down past employers for reference not the current employer as in most cases it is not good for your current employer to know you are job hunting.


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    #16
    MaxFightmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭MaxFightmaster


    Its not whats said in a reference, either verbal or written, its whats not said !!


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    #17
    shankespony
    Registered Users Posts: 278 ✭✭shankespony


    My take on that is tread carefully. I took a previous employer to EAT then Court which subsequently I won. I was offered 2 jobs subject to reference by other companies, the employer admitted in court and named the companies he'd received calls for references for , i didn't get the jobs and neither of the employers would stand up in court. Its a joke that he's been able to ruin my career in Ireland.


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    #18
    mood
    Registered Users Posts: 4,264 ✭✭✭mood


    shankespony wrote: »
    My take on that is tread carefully. I took a previous employer to EAT then Court which subsequently I won. I was offered 2 jobs subject to reference by other companies, the employer admitted in court and named the companies he'd received calls for references for , i didn't get the jobs and neither of the employers would stand up in court. Its a joke that he's been able to ruin my career in Ireland.

    If someone is summonsed to court I though the HAD to appear!

    It is very unfair that employers and manages can ruin someone's career out of nothing more than personal dislike. Some people are just nasty and should never be in a position of power.


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    #19
    shankespony
    Registered Users Posts: 278 ✭✭shankespony


    They were summonsed to court but said they wouldn't be "able to remember" the details, I won my unfair dismissal case but this vindictive employer has dogged my career. The law is an ass in this country and as you can see those with money can do what they want in my experience.


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    #20
    mood
    Registered Users Posts: 4,264 ✭✭✭mood


    shankespony wrote: »
    They were summonsed to court but said they wouldn't be "able to remember" the details, I won my unfair dismissal case but this vindictive employer has dogged my career. The law is an ass in this country and as you can see those with money can do what they want in my experience.

    But if they appeared would they have honestly lied in court? I don't think so. Surely their HR dept would have have records of the interview etc.


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    #21
    shankespony
    Registered Users Posts: 278 ✭✭shankespony


    My legal team didn't call them as they would have been hostile witnesses!!! and my priority was to win my unfair dismissal case. It has left me very disillusioned and bitter about the whole system in this country, that this employer could ruin my career in Ireland and im abroad looking for work and still to no avail so far. I now face losing my house also and the whole system sucks from my personal experience. I have court records with him saying the name of the two companies, but with both employers unwilling to back this up how can i prove it. My lawyers have lived up to stereotype lets say


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    #22
    mood
    Registered Users Posts: 4,264 ✭✭✭mood


    shankespony wrote: »
    My legal team didn't call them as they would have been hostile witnesses!!! and my priority was to win my unfair dismissal case. It has left me very disillusioned and bitter about the whole system in this country, that this employer could ruin my career in Ireland and im abroad looking for work and still to no avail so far. I now face losing my house also and the whole system sucks from my personal experience. I have court records with him saying the name of the two companies, but with both employers unwilling to back this up how can i prove it. My lawyers have lived up to stereotype lets say

    Why not set up your own business? No references need.


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    #23
    shankespony
    Registered Users Posts: 278 ✭✭shankespony


    Thanks Mood, its looking like that will be my next step. I will write the full story of this someday and it will make shocking reading, it will lay out the experiences of EAT , Circuit Court and even when you win the case the shenanigans that an employer can get up to. I have been asked to document it by the Anti Bullying in Trinity and will do, my only concern is that my story will deter people from doing whats right and just and letting poor employers off the hook. This employer was lambasted and the treatment of staff on boards was detailed so my own experience was not isolated!!!


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