How renting in Ireland differs from other countries

Pkiernan

Victor wrote: »

An ice-box is not considered a freezer.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2008/en/si/0534.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/si/0462.html

Talk to your landlord, the might be quite willing to help.

I don't see anywhere in the act where Fridge freezers are defined.

Food Preparation and Storage and Laundry

8. (1) Notwithstanding Article 4, this Article shall not apply where the house is let by a housing authority under Section 56 of the Housing Act 1966 (as amended) or by a housing body approved under Section 6 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1992 .

(2) Subject to sub-article (1), there shall be provided, within the habitable area of the house, for the exclusive use of the house:

(a) 4 ring hob with oven and grill,

(b) Suitable facilities for the effective and safe removal of fumes to the external air by means of a cooker hood or extractor fan,

(c) Fridge and freezer or fridge-freezer,

(d) Microwave oven,

(e) Sink, with a piped supply of cold water taken direct from the service pipe supplying water from the public main or other source to the building containing the house and a facility for the piped supply of hot water, and an adequate draining area,

(f) Suitable and adequate number of kitchen presses for food storage purposes,

(g) Washing machine, or access to a communal washing machine facility within the curtilage of the building, and

(h) Where the house does not contain a garden or yard for the exclusive use of that house, a dryer (vented or recirculation type).

OP, you may wish to ask your LL if he/she is willing to provide a freezer. However, I wouldn't go in demanding one, nor would I say that the fridge you have does not meet legal requirements, unless you know for sure that it does not.

murphaph

Madness really.

Irish tenants are the most molly coddled in Europe I'd say. In Germany the landlord can let the property in whatever state he wants (might be obliged to provide sanitary facilities but no more).

A German LL can rent a property without so much as a kitchen or light fittings and indeed this is common. I can't believe that in Ireland they want to force landlords to provide a fridge feckin freezer. Unreal.

:eek:

Procrastastudy

murphaph wrote: »

Madness really.

Irish tenants are the most molly coddled in Europe I'd say. In Germany the landlord can let the property in whatever state he wants (might be obliged to provide sanitary facilities but no more).

A German LL can rent a property without so much as a kitchen or light fittings and indeed this is common. I can't believe that in Ireland they want to force landlords to provide a fridge feckin freezer. Unreal.

:eek:

LOL rubbish - moving over from the UK I was shocked at the dog houses LLs thought they could put people in and the less said about the rip off rents the better.

murphaph

Procrastastudy wrote: »

LOL rubbish - moving over from the UK I was shocked at the dog houses LLs thought they could put people in and the less said about the rip off rents the better.

Rubbish? That long list of things a landlord must supply is molly coddling. Why can't tenants buy their own feckin microwaves?

First flat listed under Berlin on a random property site

Note: No furniture, no applicances, literally just a kitchen sink. This is a standard letting, nothing unusual in Germany at all.

Getting a microwave etc. provided by your LL would be exceptionally rare here.

Procrastastudy

murphaph wrote: »

Rubbish? That long list of things a landlord must supply is molly coddling. Why can't tenants buy their own feckin microwaves?

First flat listed under Berlin on a random property site

Note: No furniture, no applicances, literally just a kitchen sink. This is a standard letting, nothing unusual in Germany at all.

Getting a microwave etc. provided by your LL would be exceptionally rare here.

Thats because they are providing unfurnished accommodation which can be provided here too. When providing furnished accommodation it must be provided to a certain standard. Ireland has it's own unique set of problems including a-hole landlords which goes back quite a way.

murphaph

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Thats because they are providing unfurnished accommodation which can be provided here too. When providing furnished accommodation it must be provided to a certain standard. Ireland has it's own unique set of problems including a-hole landlords which goes back quite a way.

a-hole tenants too, I'm sure you'll agree

StillWaters

There is much more mobility in tenants here than in Germany. It appears in Germany tenants rent the one place for a long period of time so invest in the place, whereas here, even with relatively strong security for tenants, they tend to stay a couple of years max, and will move on with just a bootfull of belongings.

I think that's changing a small bit, but still renting is ultimately seen as something you do when you are young free and single, and have better things to spend your money on than fridge freezers and mattresses.

MadsL

Because a lot of tenants in Germany want to rent fully unfurnished. To say tenants in Ireland are mollycoddled is an utter joke. We are only now catching up to proper tenant protection after years of landlords making fortunes off the state in rent allowance.

I've been shown some horrors in my time, but some of the worse places I've seen have been in Ireland. One place up in Mountjoy Square was a bed shoved into a georgian house's return scullary, there were no windows in it!

Take a look at the state of some of the places that pass as "studios" on the Funny flats thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=70487740

fasttalkerchat

They have to provide a fridge/freezer even if its unfurnished?

murphaph

StillWaters wrote: »

There is much more mobility in tenants here than in Germany. It appears in Germany tenants rent the one place for a long period of time so invest in the place, whereas here, even with relatively strong security for tenants, they tend to stay a couple of years max, and will move on with just a bootfull of belongings.

I think that's changing a small bit, but still renting is ultimately seen as something you do when you are young free and single, and have better things to spend your money on than fridge freezers and mattresses.

I helped my pal here move into a new flat today (for the umteenth time). The previous tenant was moving to Stuttgart and sold all his appliances to my mate. That's how it often goes here. The LL has nothing to do with it in such cases.

Irish tenants really are molly coddled. All the protection is on the tenant's side and with silly lists of items that have to be provided it's getting beyond a joke now. A LL and tenant should be able to decide what they want to rent, the state should not be specifying what sort if toaster you have to provide. Just ridiculous.

There's plenty of good rental property out there. Tenants in sh!t accomodation should move to something decent and leave sh!t properties with sh!t LL's. If the state is going to start insisting on sticking its nose in and specifying x, y and z for furnished rentals then LLs will turn away from them and start to go unfurnished. I'm probably going to rent my place unfurnished next time-less hassle. My current tenants are over 4 years in situ, so it's clear that people in Ireland are renting for longer periods too. Such tenants could easily follow the German lead and buy their own stuff, stuff they like, rather than "settling" for my taste in furniture etc.

MadsL

murphaph wrote: »

I helped my pal here move into a new flat today (for the umteenth time). The previous tenant was moving to Stuttgart and sold all his appliances to my mate. That's how it often goes here. The LL has nothing to do with it in such cases.

Irish tenants really are molly coddled. All the protection is on the tenant's side and with silly lists of items that have to be provided it's getting beyond a joke now. A LL and tenant should be able to decide what they want to rent, the state should not be specifying what sort if toaster you have to provide. Just ridiculous.

There's plenty of good rental property out there. Tenants in sh!t accomodation should move to something decent and leave sh!t properties with sh!t LL's. If the state is going to start insisting on sticking its nose in and specifying x, y and z for furnished rentals then LLs will turn away from them and start to go unfurnished. I'm probably going to rent my place unfurnished next time-less hassle. My current tenants are over 4 years in situ, so it's clear that people in Ireland are renting for longer periods too. Such tenants could easily follow the German lead and buy their own stuff, stuff they like, rather than "settling" for my taste in furniture etc.

When unfurnished property is as widely available as furnished perhaps tenants will start buying their own. Last count I found just 69 properties unfurnished on daft. It is unbelieveably frustrating trying to find a place unfurnished.

I couldn't/didn't want to take my microwave on my last move - and no friends wanted it either. It cracked me up to see microwave listed as a feature when my old place was listed for rent.

reprazant

murphaph wrote: »

I helped my pal here move into a new flat today (for the umteenth time). The previous tenant was moving to Stuttgart and sold all his appliances to my mate. That's how it often goes here. The LL has nothing to do with it in such cases.

Irish tenants really are molly coddled. All the protection is on the tenant's side and with silly lists of items that have to be provided it's getting beyond a joke now. A LL and tenant should be able to decide what they want to rent, the state should not be specifying what sort if toaster you have to provide. Just ridiculous.

There's plenty of good rental property out there. Tenants in sh!t accomodation should move to something decent and leave sh!t properties with sh!t LL's. If the state is going to start insisting on sticking its nose in and specifying x, y and z for furnished rentals then LLs will turn away from them and start to go unfurnished. I'm probably going to rent my place unfurnished next time-less hassle. My current tenants are over 4 years in situ, so it's clear that people in Ireland are renting for longer periods too. Such tenants could easily follow the German lead and buy their own stuff, stuff they like, rather than "settling" for my taste in furniture etc.

What rent is he paying? When I was in Berlin, I paid €250 a month for a large 2 bed apartment.

murphaph

reprazant wrote: »

What rent is he paying? When I was in Berlin, I paid €250 a month for a large 2 bed apartment.

€520 warm in a nothing special 35m² flat nowhere near the centre of town and reliant on buses as it's too far to the nearest train station. Rents have literally shot up around here in the last while. In my borough rents are 10.6%/m² up on the last 12 months alone. Since 2007 they have increased by up to 40%. In wider Berlin, they have gone up roughly 25-30% since 2007. It's not the cheap place it once was, and Berlin incomes haven't risen (except in some select areas like IT) to match. Berlin is finally becomeing like any European capital: expensive.

edit: I don't know what point you were trying to make though, unfurnished is the norm in Munich and Stuttgart too, where you can easily pay 1.5k a month in a nice area for a decent flat.

Procrastastudy

murphaph wrote: »

€520 warm in a nothing special 35m² flat nowhere near the centre of town and reliant on buses as it's too far to the nearest train station. Rents have literally shot up around here in the last while. In my borough rents are 10.6%/m² up on the last 12 months alone. Since 2007 they have increased by up to 40%. In wider Berlin, they have gone up roughly 25-30% since 2007. It's not the cheap place it once was, and Berlin incomes haven't risen (except in some select areas like IT) to match. Berlin is finally becomeing like any European capital: expensive.

edit: I don't know what point you were trying to make though, unfurnished is the norm in Munich and Stuttgart too, where you can easily pay 1.5k a month in a nice area for a decent flat.

The point he is trying to make is for a 1 bedroom sh!thole that hasn't been decorated in ten years in Dublin will cost you upwards of €700 a month and you're bitching about actually having to put a freezer into a furnished property rather than something designed to accommodate 6 medium sized ice cubes.

StillWaters

In my view the ideal lies somewhere between the LL changing light bulbs (remember that thread) and letting a shell. I would love if tenants provided their own small appliances, soft furnishings, mattresses,,tightened screws as they became loose,and generally created a home. I have had some joyous tenants like that. I have also had tenants looking for ground floor windows washed, yard weeded, radiators bled, cushions replaced etc.

murphaph

Procrastastudy wrote: »

The point he is trying to make is for a 1 bedroom sh!thole that hasn't been decorated in ten years in Dublin will cost you upwards of €700 a month and you're bitching about actually having to put a freezer into a furnished property rather than something designed to accommodate 6 medium sized ice cubes.

In Munich a one bed sh!thole will cost just as much (indeed central Berlin will now even see these sort of rents paid), perhaps more and the TENANTS are responsible for all decoration. You get it painted brilliant white throughout and you return it in the same state (usually requiring a repaint).

I'm bitching about the GOVERNMENT telling me what I should include as a fixture and fitting. I provide a fridge freezer to my tenants because I CHOSE to go with that level of fit out. I disagree completely with the state being able to dictate what fittings must be included.

You talk about the proverbial sh!thole, but in reality rental properties in Ireland have improved immensely due to competition in the sector. There is no need for anyone to have to live in substandard accomodation these days.

The state should better (effectively, read: not what the PRTB does) regulate important things like illegal deposit retention by landlords or negligence (not repairing defective gas appliances for example) or on the other side overholding or criminal damage by tenants (happens more than you'd like to imagine I'd say). Instead the state faffs around with lists of "must haves" for furnished properties that aren't must haves at all.

Some of you folks should see what passes for rental accomodation in Berlin: I'm talking flats with no hearing system apart from a coal fire (on the fourth or fifth floor). If you want to wash yourself, you need to light a fire. Even in this mecca of renters rights, the state doesn't stick its nose in to the finer points of what must and must not be provided, if the 2 parties agree a set rent for the given property, then everyone is going into it with their eyes open,

Would you be happy if the state mandated deposits of 3 months rent and a months rent to the agent and a months rent in advance? (All common in Germany). That would mean a tenant would have to find 5 months rent before moving into a place. If the state says it's fair, it must be, right?

mikemac1

murphaph wrote: »

In Munich a one bed sh!thole will cost just as much (indeed central Berlin will now even see these sort of rents paid), perhaps more and the TENANTS are responsible for all decoration.

And New York and Tokyo will cost you even more.
Both are as relevant to this thread as Germany

murphaph wrote: »

Irish tenants are the most molly coddled in Europe I'd say.

murphaph wrote: »

Some of you folks should see what passes for rental accomodation in Berlin: I'm talking flats with no hearing system apart from a coal fire (on the fourth or fifth floor). If you want to wash yourself, you need to light a fire.

The Irish and the OP want something better that what sounds like a 1920's tenement maybe?

murphaph

mikemac1 wrote: »

And New York and Tokyo will cost you even more.
Both are as relevant to this thread as Germany

Ah the old "we don't need to look to any other country for anything" attitude. If I want to bring my experiences of a foreign country's system into this thread I'll do it. If you don't like it, not my problem. There's a whole world of experiences beyond our little island that we can draw from.

mikemac1 wrote: »

The Irish and the OP want something better that what sounds like a 1920's tenement maybe?

Ah come off it now for God's sake. Are you saying that a fridge freezer is now really some sort of minimum standard and that without one, the property is a "tenement"? I was not encouraging coal fired flats by the way (thought that was obvious enough, but clearly not), just highlighting that, despite what some tenants in Ireland seem to believe, Irish property is not the dickensian nightmare they make out and that even in countries with much larger rental sectors, you'll find much worse conditions. Irish tenants have it relatively good is the point, which appears to have been missed.

The state is so busy making an ass of itself with these silly lists, it beggars belief and more and more landlords will indeed turn to unfurnished as long term renting becomes more prevalent and landlords get sick of people ringing them up about a broken toaster. I'll likely go that way myself (though I WILL provide a fitted kitchen including FF) if my tenants decide to move on at any stage.

As I said, molly coddled.

mikemac1

Have a read of the list in post 8

Nobody talking about toasters or the State specifying toasters expect you

MadsL

Providing a perfectly reasonable standard of furnished accommodation = mollycoddled?

Providing a hotplate, a sawn piece of planking and a crying chair = being fair to landlords?



Wow.

murphaph

MadsL wrote: »

Providing a perfectly reasonable standard of furnished accommodation = mollycoddled?

No, being forced to provide fridge freezers is being mollycoddled though.

MadsL wrote: »

Providing a hotplate, a sawn piece of planking and a crying chair = being fair to landlords?

My house already has a fridge freezer and most rented houses probably have them too (flats might be different, given space constraints). My house has had a fridge freezer (and a nice built in kitchen) since well before these government agencies started making silly lists of applianes up.

I choose to rent the property out that way, but I should be at liberty to rent it without a fridge freezer should I choose. There's nobody mollycoddling landlords when the sh!t hits the fan. Nobody steps in when a tenant decides to stop paying rent or to wreck your property. All the mollycoddling is on the one side.

MistyCheese

Well it's nice that you were mollycoddled with a fridge freezer but I wasn't even mollycoddled with a toaster. Or a microwave.

MadsL

murphaph wrote: »

No, being forced to provide fridge freezers is being mollycoddled though.

Because Fridge freezers are rarely built-in, and are easily portable. Most tenants should have one in their pocket. /sarcasm.

I choose to rent the property out that way, but I should be at liberty to rent it without a fridge freezer should I choose. There's nobody mollycoddling landlords when the sh!t hits the fan. Nobody steps in when a tenant decides to stop paying rent or to wreck your property. All the mollycoddling is on the one side.

Apart from the law and small claims court.

Shelli2

Nobody is forced to rent a property these days, if a house or apartment doesn't have all the things you need you look for another place, simple. If you sign a lease and are happy with the house moving in, I think it is then unfair to ask the landlord to provide extra, these things need to be agreed upon before moving in. No harm in asking, but I don't think they should be under any obligation to supply.

murphaph

MadsL wrote: »

Because Fridge freezers are rarely built-in, and are easily portable. Most tenants should have one in their pocket. /sarcasm.

Neither is a 4 poster bed, but should one be compulsory in a rental property? What about a big screen TV or computer, seeing as these things are seen as essential these days?

MadsL wrote: »

Apart from the law and small claims court.

Come back to me when you have any experience of these things.
I have personal experience of the law (and its failings) in this area. I can tell you from experience that the law will sit idely by for months, even years on end while a tenant refuses to pay one penny in rent. The small claims court is out of the question by the way, they don't handle landlord tenant disputes at all

murphaph

Shelli2 wrote: »

Nobody is forced to rent a property these days, if a house or apartment doesn't have all the things you need you look for another place, simple. If you sign a lease and are happy with the house moving in, I think it is then unfair to ask the landlord to provide extra, these things need to be agreed upon before moving in. No harm in asking, but I don't think they should be under any obligation to supply.

Thank you for the sanity check. That's all I'm saying: let the landlord and tenant agree what they want to rent.

MadsL

murphaph wrote: »

Come back to me when you have any experience of these things.
I have personal experience of the law (and its failings) in this area. I can tell you from experience that the law will sit idely by for months, even years on end while a tenant refuses to pay one penny in rent. The small claims court is out of the question by the way, they don't handle landlord tenant disputes at all

Sorry for your troubles. Remind me how basic standards being specified contributes to your troubles?

murphaph

MadsL wrote: »

Sorry for your troubles. Remind me how basic standards being specified contributes to your troubles?

The two have nothing to do with one another. I never stated otherwise

reprazant

I think I have heard it all now. It being necessary to have some sort of device with which you can freeze food means that tenants are the molly coddled in Europe shows the utter contempt that some landlords have for their tenants.

Pessimist

I know this is not really relevant to the OP's question but I do have to say that landlords do provide more furnishings & appliances in Ireland than in any other country I've lived in. In Australia the houses/apartments don't come with anything electrical except an oven (in most cases), hot water system & heating. You'd never get a fridge, a microwave or even a washing machine. You have to provide all of your own furnishings, eg kitchen table, chairs etc. And rent was a lot higher as well! Canada was much the same.

I'm not saying whether this is a good or bad thing!

In regard to the fridge-freezer question, I'd just ask the landlord & advise him/her you'll be leaving it at the house when you move.

MadsL

MadsL wrote: »

Sorry for your troubles. Remind me how basic standards being specified contributes to your troubles?

murphaph wrote: »

The two have nothing to do with one another. I never stated otherwise

Then why bring them up? There are laws to protect the tenant, and there are laws to protect the landlord.

Providing a fridgefreezer doesn't diminish how much the law protects the landlord, just provides a decent level as a standard for living accommodation. What other countries do is irrelevant, I expect the inspection regime is heavier in other countries for rent allowance (whatever the equivalent payment is) and landlords have had years in Ireland with a very easy ride in this regard.

If being a landlord is such a burden to you I suggest you look for your yield elsewhere.

MistyCheese

Poor irishgirl just wanted something to keep a bit of meat from going off and people are talking about renting properties in Germany, crying chairs and whether or not landlords should be required to provide toasters!

mdebets

You can't compare the German and Irish rental market, because they are based on two totally different frameworks. These two frameworks also lead to the two different types of rentals (unfurnished in Germany, furnished in Ireland). This also means, you can't just introduce large scale unfurnished renting in Ireland without changing the framework.

In Germany, rental is normally seen as longterm solution and this is underpinned by the law. If a tenant behaves in Germany, it's very hard to throw him out, the landlord is restricted in how much he can raise the rent and the landlord has nearly no say in what the tenant does in the apartment (including redecoration, removing non-load bearing walls, etc.).
This leads to people living in the same apartment for many years, or even decades. This also means, they want to improve it and renting unfurnished just makes sense.

In Ireland on the other hand, most leases are 1 year leases, it's easy to get people out (just don't renew when the lease is up), the landlord can raise the rent as high as he wants and landlord can allow or disallow many things within the apartment (some leases for example specify that you are not allowed to put a nail into the wall).
Therefore people move much more often than they would in Germany. And it's just not practical, to move all furniture of an apartment on an annual basis, let alone, find a new apartment that would fit your existing furniture (don't talk about kitchens, that would nearly impossible without much cost in remodeling it).
Therefore, you have furnished apartments in Ireland, as this makes much more sense. For a furnished apartment to be livable, you need 3 basic things, an area to sleep (bed should be in every house), a place to wash and a toilet (in every house) and an area to prepare and store food (oven should be in each house and the new law with Fridge and freezer makes just sense).

Pkiernan

mdebets wrote: »

In Ireland on the other hand, most leases are 1 year leases, it's easy to get people out (just don't renew when the lease is up), the landlord can raise the rent as high as he wants .

Hah - that would be great, but unfortunately in communist Ireland the LL cannot raise the rent as high as he wants.

Pkiernan

mdebets wrote: »

In Ireland on the other hand, most leases are 1 year leases, it's easy to get people out (just don't renew when the lease is up)

This is not true either. Where are you getting this information from?

At the end of a 12 month lease, the tenancy automatically gets Part IV status, subject to defined notice terms.

Evicting a tenant in Ireland is virtually impossible to do in less than 12 months, even if the tenant is not paying rent.

You should do a little more research before you post. You are giving people the wrong idea.

MadsL

Pkiernan wrote: »

Hah - that would be great, but unfortunately in communist Ireland the LL cannot raise the rent as high as he wants.

*cough* what?

Communist in the same way Bertie was a Socialist, right?

mdebets

Pkiernan wrote: »

Hah - that would be great, but unfortunately in communist Ireland the LL cannot raise the rent as high as he wants.

Yes, he can. There is nothing in the law, preventing the LL from rising the rent by 100, 200 or even more percent, once the 1 year lease is up and he is offering a new lease to the tenant.

mdebets

Pkiernan wrote: »

This is not true either. Where are you getting this information from?

At the end of a 12 month lease, the tenancy automatically gets Part IV status, subject to defined notice terms.

Evicting a tenant in Ireland is virtually impossible to do in less than 12 months, even if the tenant is not paying rent.

You should do a little more research before you post. You are giving people the wrong idea.

Again, you are not telling the truth.

The tenancy only converts to Part IV status, if the LL doesn't do anything about it. If he tells the tenant he has to get out when the 1 year lease is up, he has to get out and is not getting a Part IV lease. And even if he would, it would still be much easier to tell him to get out of the apartment, than it would be in Germany.

In Germany, there are only very few circumstances, in which the landlord can turf out a client legally (basically he want's to use it for himself or a very close
relative, the tenant doesn't pay or the tenant is very anti-scoial) and even these are very tightly controlled and checked upon.

That there are problems in getting people physically out of an apartment if they resist, is a different matter (that exists in Germany as well and can even be worse, as the tenant has much more opportunities to fight it on technicalities), but its much more easy to legally tell a tenant to get out of the apartment in Ireland than it is in Germany.

cookie1977

mdebets wrote: »

Yes, he can. There is nothing in the law, preventing the LL from rising the rent by 100, 200 or even more percent, once the 1 year lease is up and he is offering a new lease to the tenant.

This is not true at all.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/rent_increases.html?tab=

Under Section 19 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 (pdf) landlords cannot charge more than the open market rate for the apartment or house. (See 'Rates' for more information on the open market rate).
Your landlord has the right to review the rent annually. However your landlord must give you at least 28 days notice (in writing) before increasing the rent. If there is any dispute about the amount of rent or about arrears of rent, either side can refer the dispute to the Private Residential Tenancies Board (PRTB). You must contact the PRTB before the date the new rent comes into effect or within 28 days of getting the notice, whichever is later.

mdebets

cookie1977 wrote: »

This is not true at all.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/rent_increases.html?tab=

But this is open to abuse (as it is very open to manipulation and it is nowhere stated in figures, what the open market rate) and still lets the possibility open, to raise the rent by double or triple digit percentage rates.
In Germany, for example you have tables, maintained by the city, which shows the maximum allowable rent for an apartment in an area. And even if this rises, the landlord is only allowed to raise the rent by a certain percentage every 3 years, even if it means not reaching the maximum.

For example, if you rent an apartment for 100€ and your area becomes very desirable over night and the new rents rise to 500€, there is nothing in the law in Ireland to prevent the landlord to raise the rent to 500€ at the time of the next rent review. In Germany on the other hand, the LL can only raise it by a certain perentage and it would take some years, to rise to 500€.

Procrastastudy

Setting rents in a similar way to Germany would likely fall foul of the Irish Constitution. There have been at least one Re Art 26 striking down of legislation on rent controls and other cases. Ironically, for the person talking about communist Ireland, relating to article 43 (and 40.3) which has it's routes in ensuring Ireland never became a communist state.

djimi

mdebets wrote: »

For example, if you rent an apartment for 100€ and your area becomes very desirable over night and the new rents rise to 500€, there is nothing in the law in Ireland to prevent the landlord to raise the rent to 500€ at the time of the next rent review. In Germany on the other hand, the LL can only raise it by a certain perentage and it would take some years, to rise to 500€.

Except in reality its extremely unlikely that somewhere that rents for pittance is all of a sudden going to become an area where the rent can jump up 500% in one year... Realistically in the vast majority of cases the rent in an area will rise gradually, and the landlord can only raise the rent on a property in accordance with the rise in the average rental price in the area.

The tenancy only converts to Part IV status, if the LL doesn't do anything about it. If he tells the tenant he has to get out when the 1 year lease is up, he has to get out and is not getting a Part IV lease.

This is absolutely not the case. The tenant obtains part 4 tenancy rights after 6 months automatically, and they run concurrent to the fixed term lease until it expires. The landlord does not get to decide whether or not the tenant obtains a part 4 tenancy, and they cannot say to a tenant that they will be leaving the property at the end of the fixed term lease.

The can however invoke one of the clauses in the part 4 tenancy to give the tenant the relevant termination notice after the fixed term lease has expires, but it cannot be for any reason; it must be in line with the clauses set out in the part 4 tenancy.

cookie1977

mdebets wrote: »

But this is open to abuse (as it is very open to manipulation and it is nowhere stated in figures, what the open market rate) and still lets the possibility open, to raise the rent by double or triple digit percentage rates.
In Germany, for example you have tables, maintained by the city, which shows the maximum allowable rent for an apartment in an area. And even if this rises, the landlord is only allowed to raise the rent by a certain percentage every 3 years, even if it means not reaching the maximum.

For example, if you rent an apartment for 100€ and your area becomes very desirable over night and the new rents rise to 500€, there is nothing in the law in Ireland to prevent the landlord to raise the rent to 500€ at the time of the next rent review. In Germany on the other hand, the LL can only raise it by a certain perentage and it would take some years, to rise to 500€.

Hmmm. I think you're really exaggerating here.

The_Conductor

Guys- I've split off the discussion of how renting in Ireland differs from Germany (and elsewhere) into its own thread- as while its an interesting discussion, it was totally derailing the thread from whence it came.

murphaph

mdebets wrote: »

In Ireland on the other hand, most leases are 1 year leases, it's easy to get people out (just don't renew when the lease is up)

You clearly don't know what you are talking about. A tenant in Ireland gains what is known as a Part IV tenancy as soon as he has been in occupation for 6 months, lease or no lease. Under a Part IV, the landlord cannot remove the tenant against his wishes unless he can prove he needs the property for his own use (this "get out" clause also exists under German law by the way!!!).

Part IV tenancies run in 4 year cycles.

I would be wary of ever putting the words "tenant" and "easy to get out" in one sentence. I have personal (bitter) experience of just how easy (NOT!) it is to remove a (non-paying!!) tenant. Removing a fully compliant one must be nigh on impossible, given my experiences of the courts system. Never did get that 20k in lost rent back either...

So, spare me the "tenants in Ireland have no rights therefore..." speech. It simply isn't true. Landlord/tenant law has moved since the foundation of the state firmly behind the tenant, to teach those bold British absentee landlords a lesson (and which has in the process made renting properties out as a long term business relatively unattractive)

murphaph

MadsL wrote: »

Then why bring them up? There are laws to protect the tenant, and there are laws to protect the landlord.

Providing a fridgefreezer doesn't diminish how much the law protects the landlord, just provides a decent level as a standard for living accommodation. What other countries do is irrelevant, I expect the inspection regime is heavier in other countries for rent allowance (whatever the equivalent payment is) and landlords have had years in Ireland with a very easy ride in this regard.

If being a landlord is such a burden to you I suggest you look for your yield elsewhere.

Madsl, I follow your posts in the politics forum. You REGULARLY bring up the property tax regime in the United States (where you have a property) in those forums when we are discussing property taxes in Ireland, so cut the double standards BS please.

I never set out to be a landlord to be honest. The residential property I let is my former home. The commercial property I let is let with my brother as we inherited it and he is not inclined to sell, so we continue to rent it out.

I have never once bought a property with the intention of letting it out, nor would I tbh. There are easier ways of making a few bob. I merely point out that I am pretty sick of the government constantly weighing in for tenants but doing literally nothing (short of poking us in the eye) for landlords. We have no real protection against non-paying or abusive tenants (it doesn't count when you have to wait up to 2 years to be able to call the Sheriff in for some leech who doesn't want to pay for property he uses, you could be long bankrupt at that stage) and now we have lists of things landlords must provide, a warm, well insulated property isn't good enough for Irish tenants, it has to have a fridge freezer or you may as well be living in the 3rd world apparently, ridiculous.

As for the "inspection regime" for rent allowance in other countries (why are you bring them into it by the way, when you said what other countries do is irrelevant??) is no different than Ireland. I know an Irish guy on welfare here in Berlin and he gets his rent paid, his flat has never been inspected.

Chris_5339762

I think the fundamental problem in Ireland is the complete and absolute lack of easily available information on rights for tenants & landlords, the responsibility of letting agents and the perceived responsibility of management companies.

All this information needs to be freely and easily available for all of the above. As it stands, its quite hard to find and when you do ask people about it you get completely conflicting information. You see it all the time on this forum.

Edit: And rampant deposit abuse - partly because of awful landlords, awful tenants, and how people simply don't know their entitlements to it. I've heard so many ludicrous reasons from friends about deposit withholding, and they had no idea what their rights were and that they were entitled to get it back! A deposit holding facility should be set up immediately.

questionmark?

Its hard to compare countries on a like for like basis. In the UK many estate agents will charge up to £150 or more per person to carry out checks on each individual person, if the person doesn't pass their checks then they don't get the fee back in most cases. This is the same credit check that can be legally obtained by each and every person for only £2! This fee is separate to the deposit you would have to pay before moving in to a place that is normally unfurnished.

StillWaters

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I think the fundamental problem in Ireland is the complete and absolute lack of easily available information on rights for tenants & landlords, the responsibility of letting agents and the perceived responsibility of management companies.

All this information needs to be freely and easily available for all of the above. As it stands, its quite hard to find and when you do ask people about it you get completely conflicting information. You see it all the time on this forum.

Edit: And rampant deposit abuse - partly because of awful landlords, awful tenants, and how people simply don't know their entitlements to it. I've heard so many ludicrous reasons from friends about deposit withholding, and they had no idea what their rights were and that they were entitled to get it back! A deposit holding facility should be set up immediately.

I think legislation is in train for a third party to hold deposits. As for information, there are two State funded agencies, threshold and prtb, not to mention a network of citizens information centres and information online. What more can the State do to inform people of tenancy laws?

murphaph

StillWaters wrote: »

I think legislation is in train for a third party to hold deposits. As for information, there are two State funded agencies, threshold and prtb, not to mention a network of citizens information centres and information online. What more can the State do to inform people of tenancy laws?

If the PRTB are given responsibility for deposit retention it'll take even longer for tenants to get their deposits back than now!

In principle I agree with the idea, but the application will be as hamfisted as the PRTB has been.