How renting in Ireland differs from other countries

MistyCheese

Poor irishgirl just wanted something to keep a bit of meat from going off and people are talking about renting properties in Germany, crying chairs and whether or not landlords should be required to provide toasters!

mdebets

You can't compare the German and Irish rental market, because they are based on two totally different frameworks. These two frameworks also lead to the two different types of rentals (unfurnished in Germany, furnished in Ireland). This also means, you can't just introduce large scale unfurnished renting in Ireland without changing the framework.

In Germany, rental is normally seen as longterm solution and this is underpinned by the law. If a tenant behaves in Germany, it's very hard to throw him out, the landlord is restricted in how much he can raise the rent and the landlord has nearly no say in what the tenant does in the apartment (including redecoration, removing non-load bearing walls, etc.).
This leads to people living in the same apartment for many years, or even decades. This also means, they want to improve it and renting unfurnished just makes sense.

In Ireland on the other hand, most leases are 1 year leases, it's easy to get people out (just don't renew when the lease is up), the landlord can raise the rent as high as he wants and landlord can allow or disallow many things within the apartment (some leases for example specify that you are not allowed to put a nail into the wall).
Therefore people move much more often than they would in Germany. And it's just not practical, to move all furniture of an apartment on an annual basis, let alone, find a new apartment that would fit your existing furniture (don't talk about kitchens, that would nearly impossible without much cost in remodeling it).
Therefore, you have furnished apartments in Ireland, as this makes much more sense. For a furnished apartment to be livable, you need 3 basic things, an area to sleep (bed should be in every house), a place to wash and a toilet (in every house) and an area to prepare and store food (oven should be in each house and the new law with Fridge and freezer makes just sense).

Pkiernan

mdebets wrote: »

In Ireland on the other hand, most leases are 1 year leases, it's easy to get people out (just don't renew when the lease is up), the landlord can raise the rent as high as he wants .

Hah - that would be great, but unfortunately in communist Ireland the LL cannot raise the rent as high as he wants.

Pkiernan

mdebets wrote: »

In Ireland on the other hand, most leases are 1 year leases, it's easy to get people out (just don't renew when the lease is up)

This is not true either. Where are you getting this information from?

At the end of a 12 month lease, the tenancy automatically gets Part IV status, subject to defined notice terms.

Evicting a tenant in Ireland is virtually impossible to do in less than 12 months, even if the tenant is not paying rent.

You should do a little more research before you post. You are giving people the wrong idea.

MadsL

Pkiernan wrote: »

Hah - that would be great, but unfortunately in communist Ireland the LL cannot raise the rent as high as he wants.

*cough* what?

Communist in the same way Bertie was a Socialist, right?

mdebets

Pkiernan wrote: »

Hah - that would be great, but unfortunately in communist Ireland the LL cannot raise the rent as high as he wants.

Yes, he can. There is nothing in the law, preventing the LL from rising the rent by 100, 200 or even more percent, once the 1 year lease is up and he is offering a new lease to the tenant.

mdebets

Pkiernan wrote: »

This is not true either. Where are you getting this information from?

At the end of a 12 month lease, the tenancy automatically gets Part IV status, subject to defined notice terms.

Evicting a tenant in Ireland is virtually impossible to do in less than 12 months, even if the tenant is not paying rent.

You should do a little more research before you post. You are giving people the wrong idea.

Again, you are not telling the truth.

The tenancy only converts to Part IV status, if the LL doesn't do anything about it. If he tells the tenant he has to get out when the 1 year lease is up, he has to get out and is not getting a Part IV lease. And even if he would, it would still be much easier to tell him to get out of the apartment, than it would be in Germany.

In Germany, there are only very few circumstances, in which the landlord can turf out a client legally (basically he want's to use it for himself or a very close
relative, the tenant doesn't pay or the tenant is very anti-scoial) and even these are very tightly controlled and checked upon.

That there are problems in getting people physically out of an apartment if they resist, is a different matter (that exists in Germany as well and can even be worse, as the tenant has much more opportunities to fight it on technicalities), but its much more easy to legally tell a tenant to get out of the apartment in Ireland than it is in Germany.

cookie1977

mdebets wrote: »

Yes, he can. There is nothing in the law, preventing the LL from rising the rent by 100, 200 or even more percent, once the 1 year lease is up and he is offering a new lease to the tenant.

This is not true at all.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/rent_increases.html?tab=

Under Section 19 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 (pdf) landlords cannot charge more than the open market rate for the apartment or house. (See 'Rates' for more information on the open market rate).
Your landlord has the right to review the rent annually. However your landlord must give you at least 28 days notice (in writing) before increasing the rent. If there is any dispute about the amount of rent or about arrears of rent, either side can refer the dispute to the Private Residential Tenancies Board (PRTB). You must contact the PRTB before the date the new rent comes into effect or within 28 days of getting the notice, whichever is later.

mdebets

cookie1977 wrote: »

This is not true at all.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/rent_increases.html?tab=

But this is open to abuse (as it is very open to manipulation and it is nowhere stated in figures, what the open market rate) and still lets the possibility open, to raise the rent by double or triple digit percentage rates.
In Germany, for example you have tables, maintained by the city, which shows the maximum allowable rent for an apartment in an area. And even if this rises, the landlord is only allowed to raise the rent by a certain percentage every 3 years, even if it means not reaching the maximum.

For example, if you rent an apartment for 100€ and your area becomes very desirable over night and the new rents rise to 500€, there is nothing in the law in Ireland to prevent the landlord to raise the rent to 500€ at the time of the next rent review. In Germany on the other hand, the LL can only raise it by a certain perentage and it would take some years, to rise to 500€.

Procrastastudy

Setting rents in a similar way to Germany would likely fall foul of the Irish Constitution. There have been at least one Re Art 26 striking down of legislation on rent controls and other cases. Ironically, for the person talking about communist Ireland, relating to article 43 (and 40.3) which has it's routes in ensuring Ireland never became a communist state.

djimi

mdebets wrote: »

For example, if you rent an apartment for 100€ and your area becomes very desirable over night and the new rents rise to 500€, there is nothing in the law in Ireland to prevent the landlord to raise the rent to 500€ at the time of the next rent review. In Germany on the other hand, the LL can only raise it by a certain perentage and it would take some years, to rise to 500€.

Except in reality its extremely unlikely that somewhere that rents for pittance is all of a sudden going to become an area where the rent can jump up 500% in one year... Realistically in the vast majority of cases the rent in an area will rise gradually, and the landlord can only raise the rent on a property in accordance with the rise in the average rental price in the area.

The tenancy only converts to Part IV status, if the LL doesn't do anything about it. If he tells the tenant he has to get out when the 1 year lease is up, he has to get out and is not getting a Part IV lease.

This is absolutely not the case. The tenant obtains part 4 tenancy rights after 6 months automatically, and they run concurrent to the fixed term lease until it expires. The landlord does not get to decide whether or not the tenant obtains a part 4 tenancy, and they cannot say to a tenant that they will be leaving the property at the end of the fixed term lease.

The can however invoke one of the clauses in the part 4 tenancy to give the tenant the relevant termination notice after the fixed term lease has expires, but it cannot be for any reason; it must be in line with the clauses set out in the part 4 tenancy.

cookie1977

mdebets wrote: »

But this is open to abuse (as it is very open to manipulation and it is nowhere stated in figures, what the open market rate) and still lets the possibility open, to raise the rent by double or triple digit percentage rates.
In Germany, for example you have tables, maintained by the city, which shows the maximum allowable rent for an apartment in an area. And even if this rises, the landlord is only allowed to raise the rent by a certain percentage every 3 years, even if it means not reaching the maximum.

For example, if you rent an apartment for 100€ and your area becomes very desirable over night and the new rents rise to 500€, there is nothing in the law in Ireland to prevent the landlord to raise the rent to 500€ at the time of the next rent review. In Germany on the other hand, the LL can only raise it by a certain perentage and it would take some years, to rise to 500€.

Hmmm. I think you're really exaggerating here.

The_Conductor

Guys- I've split off the discussion of how renting in Ireland differs from Germany (and elsewhere) into its own thread- as while its an interesting discussion, it was totally derailing the thread from whence it came.

murphaph

mdebets wrote: »

In Ireland on the other hand, most leases are 1 year leases, it's easy to get people out (just don't renew when the lease is up)

You clearly don't know what you are talking about. A tenant in Ireland gains what is known as a Part IV tenancy as soon as he has been in occupation for 6 months, lease or no lease. Under a Part IV, the landlord cannot remove the tenant against his wishes unless he can prove he needs the property for his own use (this "get out" clause also exists under German law by the way!!!).

Part IV tenancies run in 4 year cycles.

I would be wary of ever putting the words "tenant" and "easy to get out" in one sentence. I have personal (bitter) experience of just how easy (NOT!) it is to remove a (non-paying!!) tenant. Removing a fully compliant one must be nigh on impossible, given my experiences of the courts system. Never did get that 20k in lost rent back either...

So, spare me the "tenants in Ireland have no rights therefore..." speech. It simply isn't true. Landlord/tenant law has moved since the foundation of the state firmly behind the tenant, to teach those bold British absentee landlords a lesson (and which has in the process made renting properties out as a long term business relatively unattractive)

murphaph

MadsL wrote: »

Then why bring them up? There are laws to protect the tenant, and there are laws to protect the landlord.

Providing a fridgefreezer doesn't diminish how much the law protects the landlord, just provides a decent level as a standard for living accommodation. What other countries do is irrelevant, I expect the inspection regime is heavier in other countries for rent allowance (whatever the equivalent payment is) and landlords have had years in Ireland with a very easy ride in this regard.

If being a landlord is such a burden to you I suggest you look for your yield elsewhere.

Madsl, I follow your posts in the politics forum. You REGULARLY bring up the property tax regime in the United States (where you have a property) in those forums when we are discussing property taxes in Ireland, so cut the double standards BS please.

I never set out to be a landlord to be honest. The residential property I let is my former home. The commercial property I let is let with my brother as we inherited it and he is not inclined to sell, so we continue to rent it out.

I have never once bought a property with the intention of letting it out, nor would I tbh. There are easier ways of making a few bob. I merely point out that I am pretty sick of the government constantly weighing in for tenants but doing literally nothing (short of poking us in the eye) for landlords. We have no real protection against non-paying or abusive tenants (it doesn't count when you have to wait up to 2 years to be able to call the Sheriff in for some leech who doesn't want to pay for property he uses, you could be long bankrupt at that stage) and now we have lists of things landlords must provide, a warm, well insulated property isn't good enough for Irish tenants, it has to have a fridge freezer or you may as well be living in the 3rd world apparently, ridiculous.

As for the "inspection regime" for rent allowance in other countries (why are you bring them into it by the way, when you said what other countries do is irrelevant??) is no different than Ireland. I know an Irish guy on welfare here in Berlin and he gets his rent paid, his flat has never been inspected.

Chris_5339762

I think the fundamental problem in Ireland is the complete and absolute lack of easily available information on rights for tenants & landlords, the responsibility of letting agents and the perceived responsibility of management companies.

All this information needs to be freely and easily available for all of the above. As it stands, its quite hard to find and when you do ask people about it you get completely conflicting information. You see it all the time on this forum.

Edit: And rampant deposit abuse - partly because of awful landlords, awful tenants, and how people simply don't know their entitlements to it. I've heard so many ludicrous reasons from friends about deposit withholding, and they had no idea what their rights were and that they were entitled to get it back! A deposit holding facility should be set up immediately.

questionmark?

Its hard to compare countries on a like for like basis. In the UK many estate agents will charge up to £150 or more per person to carry out checks on each individual person, if the person doesn't pass their checks then they don't get the fee back in most cases. This is the same credit check that can be legally obtained by each and every person for only £2! This fee is separate to the deposit you would have to pay before moving in to a place that is normally unfurnished.

StillWaters

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I think the fundamental problem in Ireland is the complete and absolute lack of easily available information on rights for tenants & landlords, the responsibility of letting agents and the perceived responsibility of management companies.

All this information needs to be freely and easily available for all of the above. As it stands, its quite hard to find and when you do ask people about it you get completely conflicting information. You see it all the time on this forum.

Edit: And rampant deposit abuse - partly because of awful landlords, awful tenants, and how people simply don't know their entitlements to it. I've heard so many ludicrous reasons from friends about deposit withholding, and they had no idea what their rights were and that they were entitled to get it back! A deposit holding facility should be set up immediately.

I think legislation is in train for a third party to hold deposits. As for information, there are two State funded agencies, threshold and prtb, not to mention a network of citizens information centres and information online. What more can the State do to inform people of tenancy laws?

murphaph

StillWaters wrote: »

I think legislation is in train for a third party to hold deposits. As for information, there are two State funded agencies, threshold and prtb, not to mention a network of citizens information centres and information online. What more can the State do to inform people of tenancy laws?

If the PRTB are given responsibility for deposit retention it'll take even longer for tenants to get their deposits back than now!

In principle I agree with the idea, but the application will be as hamfisted as the PRTB has been.