Irish Water

Cuttlefish

Rightwing wrote: »

Little artice here on the nice loot the workers made:

Nor should anyone underestimate the role of the workers themselves in contributing to the slow collapse of the organisation. Back in 1998, the government set up an employee share ownership trust (ESOT), which was designed to protect the interests of Eircom workers as privatisation approached.
It was highly effective in this regard, but it also had the bizarre consequence of transforming a small group of public sector employees into financial buccaneers, who have profited hugely from the destruction of their company.
When Eircom floated, workers got a 14.9% stake for an average price of €1.70 per share — a fraction of the €3.90 that the public paid. Not content with making this killing, Valentia sweet-talked the ESOT into accepting its calamitous 2001 bid, which saw the employees take control of 29.9% of the company.
The 12,500 members of the ESOT — most of whom no longer work for the company — have received more than €770m since Eircom’s privatisation in 1999.

That didn't leave a lot for the taxpayer, eh?

Absolute shambles, I was one of the fools duped into buying Eircom shares

Rightwing

Cuttlefish wrote: »

Absolute shambles, I was one of the fools duped into buying Eircom shares

I bought some too, about £20K worth, I remember they rose about 15% initially & then started falling so I quickly sold and made a small loss.

Cuttlefish

Rightwing wrote: »

I bought some too, about £20K worth, I remember they rose about 15% initially & then started falling so I quickly sold and made a small loss.

I remember I couldn't sell because I didn't have the paperwork, when it arrived it was too late

Rightwing

Cuttlefish wrote: »

I remember I couldn't sell because I didn't have the paperwork, when it arrived it was too late

A holder is probably still at a loss or breakeven on them after the vodafone deal & dividends. What a shambles that was.

Cuttlefish

Rightwing wrote: »

A holder is probably still at a loss or breakeven on them after the vodafone deal & dividends. What a shambles that was.

i am still getting Vodafone dividends for a couple of shares that hadn't been sold, it is ironic to say the least

Idbatterim

A group of people in an estate near me got a cement mixer a couple of weeks ago and poured wet concrete into all of the meters on the road.
IW had vans out jack hammering it out and putting new meters in.
Last night more concrete went in in top of them.

I gotta say, i never laughed so much. Wonder how long before IW give up digging the concrete out.

paying for the concrete with the free money they get every week no doubt, the irony!

These water protest morons really are the lowest common denominator and look at how riled up they get, where were the marches against the bank guarantee that cost 40,000,000,000, lack of reform in the PS and procurement or any numbers of areas? All of it is making the vast majority of us, worse off...

Cut what they receive from the state easy enough, but ask them to fork out more "their" money and this is the result... These idiots would have us reuce the capital spend budget down to 0 if it meant a few more euro in their pocket...

nice_guy80

Idbatterim wrote: »

paying for the concrete with the free money they get every week no doubt, the irony!

These water protest morons really are the lowest common denominator and look at how riled up they get, where were the marches against the bank guarantee that cost 40,000,000,000, lack of reform in the PS and procurement or any numbers of areas? All of it is making the vast majority of us, worse off...

Cut what they receive from the state easy enough, but ask them to fork out more "their" money and this is the result... These idiots would have us reuce the capital spend budget down to 0 if it meant a few more euro in their pocket...

the people who never pay for anything will always shout loudest when asked to pay for something

has always been the same

Rightwing

I think these protests are about more than just paying for water. That's the worry for Government.

Muahahaha

Rightwing wrote: »

I think these protests are about more than just paying for water. That's the worry for Government.

I think the government could fall on the water issue, it really isnt going to go away. I think you're right though, the protests are about a groundswell of anger that has been stored up during the last four budgets and throughout the Local Property Tax. The govt are now facing a backlash on all the austerity measures put together and if they don't row back on Irish Water then I can see the knives being sharpened for Enda rather soon, especially now that Sinn Fein are polling more than Fine Gael and are now the largest political party on the island of Ireland, by a considerable margin too.

The latest poll put the three establishment parties of Fianna Fail, Labour and Fine Gael on 49% collectively so we've reached and surpassed a tipping point now where 51% of the population want something other than what we've had before.

Rightwing

Muahahaha wrote: »

I think the government could fall on the water issue, it really isnt going to go away. I think you're right though, the protests are about a groundswell of anger that has been stored up during the last four budgets and throughout the Local Property Tax. The govt are now facing a backlash on all the austerity measures put together and if they don't row back on Irish Water then I can see the knives being sharpened for Enda rather soon, especially now that Sinn Fein are polling more than Fine Gael and are now the largest political party on the island of Ireland, by a considerable margin too.

The latest poll put the three establishment parties of Fianna Fail, Labour and Fine Gael on 49% collectively so we've reached and surpassed a tipping point now where 51% of the population want something other than what we've had before.

Indeed, and what are they doing about the 700 odd quangos that are in existence ? That's the real waste.

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

Indeed, and what are they doing about the 700 odd quangos that are in existence ? That's the real waste.

Interesting to hear somebody who fell for the eircom scam dispensing economic advice.

Did you buy an apartment in Sunny Beach too?

jank

I think the IW issue highlights who the public sector can be so inept in dealing with the public when the public have higher expectations. It has a bit of a jobs for the boys tinge.
Saying that, people should be paying for water. It is a no brainer. You pay for internet, food, gas, electricity. This bollox that water is a human right is just that bollox.

Rightwing

Rightwing wrote: »

I think these protests are about more than just paying for water. That's the worry for Government.

These protests are all about getting in early with canvassing for the next General Election.

Rightwing

chopper6 wrote: »

Interesting to hear somebody who fell for the eircom scam dispensing economic advice.

Did you buy an apartment in Sunny Beach too?

No, bought in south of Spain, bought with cash, so let's just say not overly bothered.

FreudianSlippers

Rightwing wrote: »

Indeed, and what are they doing about the 700 odd quangos that are in existence ? That's the real waste.

Which quangos are you most against and why?

Rightwing

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Which quangos are you most against and why?

There's about 700 of them, at least half could be done away with.

Ones like these:
Limerick Northside Regeneration Agency 2007
Taoiseach National Centre for Partnership and Performance 2001
Taoiseach Ireland Newfoundland Partnership Board 2001
Foyle, Carlingford and Irish Lights Commission 1999
National Salmon Commission 2000
Fóram na Gaeilge 2004
Pobal 2005
Western Development Commission 2005

FreudianSlippers

Rightwing wrote: »

There's about 700 of them, at least half could be done away with.

Ones like these:
Limerick Northside Regeneration Agency 2007
Taoiseach National Centre for Partnership and Performance 2001
Taoiseach Ireland Newfoundland Partnership Board 2001
Foyle, Carlingford and Irish Lights Commission 1999
National Salmon Commission 2000
Fóram na Gaeilge 2004
Pobal 2005
Western Development Commission 2005

Sure, there are some that should be done away with, but what about things like the film board and the arts council? Surely they'd be lumped in to be axed

Rightwing

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Sure, there are some that should be done away with, but what about things like the film board and the arts council? Surely they'd be lumped in to be axed

They may have a bit of merit, but take the letter B. Could we axe at least 50% of them and no one apart from workers in them be effected?

Balbriggan Town Council
Ballina Town Council
Ballinasloe Town Council
Baltimore and Skibbereen Harbour Commissioners
Ballybay Town Council
Ballyshannon Town Council
Bandon Town Council
Bantry Bay Harbour Commissioners
Bantry Town Council
Beaumont Hospital Board
Belturbet Town Council
Birr Town Council
Blanchardstown IT
Blackrock Education Support Centre
Board of the Adelaide and Meath Hospital
Board of the Commissioners for Charitable Donations
Board of Trinity College
Board for the Employment of the Blind

Bookmakers appeals committee
Boyle Town Council
Bray Town Council
Buncrana Town Council
Bundoran Town Council
Bord Altranais
Bord Gais
Bord Iascaigh Mhara
Bord na gCon
Bord na Leabhar Gaeilge
Bord na Mona
Bord o Ulster-Scotch
Bord Scannan na hEireann (check for duplication)
BreastCheck The National Cancer Screening Service
Broadcasting Authority of Ireland
Broadcasting Commission of Ireland
Broadcasting Complaints Commission
Building Regulations Advisory Board

FreudianSlippers

I don't disagree I was genuinely asking - I just don't see a blanket cull being the right thing

ardmacha

Rightwing wrote: »

They may have a bit of merit, but take the letter B. Could we axe at least 50% of them and no one apart from workers in them be effected?

Balbriggan Town Council
Ballina Town Council
Ballinasloe Town Council
Baltimore and Skibbereen Harbour Commissioners
Ballybay Town Council
Ballyshannon Town Council
Bandon Town Council
Bantry Bay Harbour Commissioners
Bantry Town Council
Beaumont Hospital Board
Belturbet Town Council
Birr Town Council
Blanchardstown IT
Blackrock Education Support Centre
Board of the Adelaide and Meath Hospital
Board of the Commissioners for Charitable Donations
Board of Trinity College
Board for the Employment of the Blind

Bookmakers appeals committee
Boyle Town Council
Bray Town Council
Buncrana Town Council
Bundoran Town Council
Bord Altranais
Bord Gais
Bord Iascaigh Mhara
Bord na gCon
Bord na Leabhar Gaeilge
Bord na Mona
Bord o Ulster-Scotch
Bord Scannan na hEireann (check for duplication)
BreastCheck The National Cancer Screening Service
Broadcasting Authority of Ireland
Broadcasting Commission of Ireland
Broadcasting Complaints Commission
Building Regulations Advisory Board

Town councils have been abolished, so that is a significant part of your list. But there is scope for examination of some of the others.

Rightwing

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I don't disagree I was genuinely asking - I just don't see a blanket cull being the right thing

I appreciate you were, and I agree a blanket cull wouldn't be the right thing. But many need to go. They are not accountable for disastrous decisions. Take Bord na gCon. What a waste of taxpayers' cash.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/retail-and-services/criticism-of-decision-to-build-track-in-limerick-1.1858626

The Indecon report is highly critical of how B
ord na gCon gave a green light to the €23 million development of a new greyhound stadium in Limerick in April 2009 at a time when Ireland’s boom was turning to bust.
The economic consultants devote five pages of yesterday’s report to “deficiencies” in the 2009 decision by its board to go ahead with construction of a new stadium in Limerick without sufficient assessment of the risks involved.
Indecon says from 2008 there were “concerns” raised by the comptroller and auditor general about the project, starting with the “lack of formal appraisal” of the purchase of the site in Limerick and with its board not being “privy” to all key information. Later, Indecon noted the C&AG raised more concerns in relation to its procedures for planning, tendering and managing capital projects that “did not operate effectively”. “We believe that of core significance is how Bord na gCon appraised capital projects,” it said.

golfwallah

Rightwing wrote: »

They may have a bit of merit, but take the letter B. Could we axe at least 50% of them and no one apart from workers in them be effected?

You have a point, but as usual, the devil is in the detail - which 50%?

Unfortunately, it's a lot easier to make over-simplified cost cutting claims than to follow up and deliver on them. It's also a lot more time consuming. That's the bug bear for people in positions of responsibility.

For example, the following is attributed John Wanamaker about advertising spending:

Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half.

Rightwing

ardmacha wrote: »

Town councils have been abolished, so that is a significant part of your list. But there is scope for examination of some of the others.

How many town councils were abolished?

Phoebas

Rightwing wrote: »

How many town councils were abolished?

80 were due to go under the plan. As far as I know that's been completed - certainly the legislation for it was passed.

Under the bill the number of councillors is to be reduced by more than 40%, resulting in 80 town councils being scrapped, with the number of councillors being reduced from 1,627 to 950.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1017/480926-local-government-bill-town-councils/

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

No, bought in south of Spain, bought with cash, so let's just say not overly bothered.

So you took a loss on that too?


Maybe you should retain a financial advisor before leaping into anymore loss-making "investments"....economic illiteracy and arrogance meake terrible bedfellows.

Rightwing

chopper6 wrote: »

So you took a loss on that too?


Maybe you should retain a financial advisor before leaping into anymore loss-making "investments"....economic illiteracy and arrogance meake terrible bedfellows.

I didn't buy that as an investment. I bought it off a distressed seller, hasn't really gone up in value, but holding for the long term.

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

I didn't buy that as an investment. I bought it off a distressed seller, hasn't really gone up in value, but holding for the long term.

I heard that from people who bought eircom shares..because they didnt understand the way stock markets work.

Likewise a lot of people buying foreign property havnt got the first clue why they're doig it..they think "oh that looks cheap,it's bound to go up in the long term"...yeah,cheap compared to Dublin maybe.

I have a friend in france who made a lot of money selling run-down buildings to English people who'd been to france on holiday and decided they would buy property there as dooer-uppers without having any understanding of the law over there or the amount of red tape that you need to wade through.

Some of the "properties" were literally in the middle of nowhere with no electricity,water or vehicular accesss...if they're cheap,there's always a very good reason for it.

Of course the NOBODY Thinks that *they* will get lumbered with an unsaleable property or a load of worthless shares so it must be the Govt and PS's fault.

Godge

Rightwing wrote: »

They may have a bit of merit, but take the letter B. Could we axe at least 50% of them and no one apart from workers in them be effected?

Balbriggan Town Council
Ballina Town Council
Ballinasloe Town Council
Baltimore and Skibbereen Harbour Commissioners
Ballybay Town Council
Ballyshannon Town Council
Bandon Town Council
Bantry Bay Harbour Commissioners
Bantry Town Council
Beaumont Hospital Board
Belturbet Town Council
Birr Town Council
Blanchardstown IT
Blackrock Education Support Centre
Board of the Adelaide and Meath Hospital
Board of the Commissioners for Charitable Donations
Board of Trinity College
Board for the Employment of the Blind

Bookmakers appeals committee
Boyle Town Council
Bray Town Council
Buncrana Town Council
Bundoran Town Council
Bord Altranais
Bord Gais
Bord Iascaigh Mhara
Bord na gCon
Bord na Leabhar Gaeilge
Bord na Mona
Bord o Ulster-Scotch
Bord Scannan na hEireann (check for duplication)
BreastCheck The National Cancer Screening Service
Broadcasting Authority of Ireland
Broadcasting Commission of Ireland
Broadcasting Complaints Commission
Building Regulations Advisory Board

Let me see, the Town Councils have gone, Blanchardstown IT will be gone next year when it merges with DIT, the Adelaide and Meath board is gone I think, merged into Tallaght Hospital, the Broadcasting Authority is the rename of the Broadcasting Commission, so you are double-counting. The Broadcasting Complaints Commission is also part of the BAI.

The BAI, like 4 of the others are commercial organisations - BIM, Bord Gais, Bord na Mona and Bord na gCon - which have little or no financing from the Exchequer and are not quangos but commercial state bodies.

That leaves only 14 of the 36, we have already exceeded your demand to abolish 50%. Of the 14, 4-5 have no staff and are just advisory committees not quangos which probably meet a handful of times each year.

A bit of research can tell a lot.

Rightwing

chopper6 wrote: »

I heard that from people who bought eircom shares..because they didnt understand the way stock markets work.

Likewise a lot of people buying foreign property havnt got the first clue why they're doig it..they think "oh that looks cheap,it's bound to go up in the long term"...yeah,cheap compared to Dublin maybe.

I have a friend in france who made a lot of money selling run-down buildings to English people who'd been to france on holiday and decided they would buy property there as dooer-uppers without having any understanding of the law over there or the amount of red tape that you need to wade through.

Some of the "properties" were literally in the middle of nowhere with no electricity,water or vehicular accesss...if they're cheap,there's always a very good reason for it.

Of course the NOBODY Thinks that *they* will get lumbered with an unsaleable property or a load of worthless shares so it must be the Govt and PS's fault.

Overall, I agree. Foreign property isn't a good investment apart from Germany.

Godge wrote: »

Let me see, the Town Councils have gone, Blanchardstown IT will be gone next year when it merges with DIT, the Adelaide and Meath board is gone I think, merged into Tallaght Hospital, the Broadcasting Authority is the rename of the Broadcasting Commission, so you are double-counting. The Broadcasting Complaints Commission is also part of the BAI.

The BAI, like 4 of the others are commercial organisations - BIM, Bord Gais, Bord na Mona and Bord na gCon - which have little or no financing from the Exchequer and are not quangos but commercial state bodies.

That leaves only 14 of the 36, we have already exceeded your demand to abolish 50%. Of the 14, 4-5 have no staff and are just advisory committees not quangos which probably meet a handful of times each year.

A bit of research can tell a lot.

80 town councils gone, how many are left though? Seems to me every second town in the country has one. What on earth they do is another question.

Phoebas

Rightwing wrote: »

80 town councils gone, how many are left though?

None as far as I know.

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

What on earth they do is another question.

What on earth do YOU do is a question that's been asked many tuimes.

Rightwing

Phoebas wrote: »

None as far as I know.

Is it only a name changing exercise though?

Since the 2014 local elections there are 31 local authorities with a total of 949 members known as councillors. Under the Local Government Reform Act 2014 the town authorities were replaced by a system of 95 municipal districts, integrating town and county governance, and certain local authorities were merged

jank

chopper6 wrote: »

What on earth do YOU do is a question that's been asked many tuimes.

Why are you so upset with Rightwing, steal your lunch money or something?

barneystinson

chopper6 wrote: »

I heard that from people who bought eircom shares..because they didnt understand the way stock markets work.

Likewise a lot of people buying foreign property havnt got the first clue why they're doig it..they think "oh that looks cheap,it's bound to go up in the long term"...yeah,cheap compared to Dublin maybe.

I have a friend in france who made a lot of money selling run-down buildings to English people who'd been to france on holiday and decided they would buy property there as dooer-uppers without having any understanding of the law over there or the amount of red tape that you need to wade through.

Some of the "properties" were literally in the middle of nowhere with no electricity,water or vehicular accesss...if they're cheap,there's always a very good reason for it.

Of course the NOBODY Thinks that *they* will get lumbered with an unsaleable property or a load of worthless shares so it must be the Govt and PS's fault.

What's that got to do with Irish Water Chopper?

Godge

Rightwing wrote: »

Is it only a name changing exercise though?

Since the 2014 local elections there are 31 local authorities with a total of 949 members known as councillors. Under the Local Government Reform Act 2014 the town authorities were replaced by a system of 95 municipal districts, integrating town and county governance, and certain local authorities were merged

just because you abolish something, it doesn't mean that the function it serves goes away.

You could abolish Irish Water tomorrow but someone somewhere would need to arrange to supply water.

Godge

Godge wrote: »

just because you abolish something, it doesn't mean that the function it serves goes away.

You could abolish Irish Water tomorrow but someone somewhere would need to arrange to supply water.

And pay for it.

Nate--IRL--

Godge wrote: »

You could abolish Irish Water tomorrow but someone somewhere would need to arrange to supply water.

Who was doing that before Irish water?

Nate

BoJack Horseman

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

Who was doing that before Irish water?

Specifically, those in employment, businesses, car owners & borrowed money

Peanut2011

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Specifically, workers, businesses, car owners & borrowed money

Conveniently forgotten to answer who was supplying it? And all those charges are not changing, so they are still paying for it!

BoJack Horseman

Peanut2011 wrote: »

And all those charges are not changing, so they are still paying for it!

Both VAT & car tax have indeed changed since the 80's.

They haven't changed this year, but both have changed in the recent past.

FreudianSlippers

Peanut2011 wrote: »

Conveniently forgotten to answer who was supplying it? And all those charges are not changing, so they are still paying for it!

Even if you accept that as factual, it doesn't fully fund water costs.

Rightwing

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Even if you accept that as factual, it doesn't fully fund water costs.

It doesn't.

But I don't think the Government would have a foot to stand on if you started looking at, if the taxpayer is getting value for money across the board. Are the councils doing unnecessary work in areas for instance, when some of this money should have been redirected toward water infrastructure.

Godge

Rightwing wrote: »

It doesn't.

But I don't think the Government would have a foot to stand on if you started looking at, if the taxpayer is getting value for money across the board. Are the councils doing unnecessary work in areas for instance, when some of this money should have been redirected toward water infrastructure.

You asked for 50% of a list to be abolished, when you find that 60% have already been abolished, you change the question.

The reality is that Ireland is getting very good value for money from its public services. Direct transfers in areas such as social welfare and health are where the most inefficiencies remain.

Rightwing

Godge wrote: »

You asked for 50% of a list to be abolished, when you find that 60% have already been abolished, you change the question.

The reality is that Ireland is getting very good value for money from its public services. Direct transfers in areas such as social welfare and health are where the most inefficiencies remain.

That's your preception, not a reality.

Let's analyse the truck drivers situation. Are they getting 'very good value' for road tax ?

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/lightning-dublin-port-haulier-blockade-causes-much-disruption-1.1970054
The hauliers have a case for their protest. Lorries registered in the Republic are faced with road tax demands of up to €4,000 a year, but the equivalent rate is just €823 (£640) in Northern Ireland.

Godge

Rightwing wrote: »

That's your preception, not a reality.

Let's analyse the truck drivers situation. Are they getting 'very good value' for road tax ?

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/lightning-dublin-port-haulier-blockade-causes-much-disruption-1.1970054
The hauliers have a case for their protest. Lorries registered in the Republic are faced with road tax demands of up to €4,000 a year, but the equivalent rate is just €823 (£640) in Northern Ireland.

Have you driven in Northern Ireland recently? Our roads are far superior, you get what you pay for.

Rightwing

Godge wrote: »

Have you driven in Northern Ireland recently? Our roads are far superior, you get what you pay for.

You see you really don't.

Hard figures trumps make believe. It's a rip off, and we know it is.

ardmacha

Rightwing wrote: »

Lorries registered in the Republic are faced with road tax demands of up to €4,000 a year, but the equivalent rate is just €823 (£640) in Northern Ireland[/URL].

Do you thing €823 funds the building and maintenance of roads to the extent required for a HGV? Arguably if only regular cars were on roads they could be narrower and built with a less elaborate pavement. So these people are being subsidised by the general citizens, not quite the policies you've been espousing elsewhere, Rightwing.

Rightwing

ardmacha wrote: »

Do you thing €823 funds the building and maintenance of roads to the extent required for a HGV? Arguably if only regular cars were on roads they could be narrower and built with a less elaborate pavement. So these people are being subsidised by the general citizens, not quite the policies you've been espousing elsewhere, Rightwing.

It probably can in every other country in the world. But costs here are so ridiculous it probably wouldn't cover a 1.1 litre fiesta.

Godge

Rightwing wrote: »

You see you really don't.

Hard figures trumps make believe. It's a rip off, and we know it is.

You mean like the make-believe that we can chop 50% of quangos is trumped by the hard figures that 60% have already been chopped?

Or the hard figures that we have over 150km of motorway per million population compared to 63km in Northern Ireland trumps a superficial comparison of road tax?


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65911767&postcount=20

ardmacha

Rightwing wrote: »

It probably can in every other country in the world. But costs here are so ridiculous it probably wouldn't cover a 1.1 litre fiesta.

Does it cover costs in the UK, or are other citizens subsiding these people?