Irish Water

Rightwing

Godge wrote: »

You mean like the make-believe that we can chop 50% of quangos is trumped by the hard figures that 60% have already been chopped?

Or the hard figures that we have over 150km of motorway per million population compared to 63km in Northern Ireland trumps a superficial comparison of road tax?


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65911767&postcount=20

Your definition of a quango and mine are completely different. Kenny had a target of 145 quangos to go, the only ones I see gone are town councils, and those punters/councillors have been shifted elsewhere.

As for the roads, that simply doesn't wash. The cash came from the EU, and maintaining secondary roads is far cheaper, so our road tax should be less if anything.

Rightwing

ardmacha wrote: »

Does it cover costs in the UK, or are other citizens subsiding these people?

It probably does, but to be fair they have a far greater population so I could allow for a differential there.

Phoebas

Rightwing wrote: »

Your definition of a quango and mine are completely different. Kenny had a target of 145 quangos to go, the only ones I see gone are town councils, and those punters/councillors have been shifted elsewhere.

Where did you get that idea from? The councillors weren't shifted anywhere.

Sometimes the debate on here is ridiculous:

FG promised to get rid of quangos, but didn't do it.
- They did get rid of 80 town councils.
Yeah, but they didn't actually do it, did they?
- Yeah. They did.
Alright, but they just shifted the councillors somewhere else.
- No, they didn't.

There are plenty of areas where the government haven't delivered, so I don't understand this need to deny the places where they actually have delivered.

Rightwing

Phoebas wrote: »

Where did you get that idea from? The councillors weren't shifted anywhere.

Sometimes the debate on here is ridiculous:

FG promised to get rid of quangos, but didn't do it.
- They did get rid of 80 town councils.
Yeah, but they didn't actually do it, did they?
- Yeah. They did.
Alright, but they just shifted the councillors somewhere else.
- No, they didn't.

There are plenty of areas where the government haven't delivered, so I don't understand this need to deny the places where they actually have delivered.

The ones that lost their jobs got massive cash, but was it 95 new municipals have been set up. Nice one Kenny. That's reform.

Phoebas

Rightwing wrote: »

The ones that lost their jobs got massive cash, but was it 95 new municipals have been set up. Nice one Kenny. That's reform.

I rest my case.

alastair

Rightwing wrote: »

Your definition of a quango and mine are completely different. Kenny had a target of 145 quangos to go, the only ones I see gone are town councils, and those punters/councillors have been shifted elsewhere.

Town councils aren't quangos, by anyone's definition, they're / they were local government bodies.

aliveandkicking

Rightwing wrote: »

The ones that lost their jobs got massive cash, but was it 95 new municipals have been set up. Nice one Kenny. That's reform.

It was posted in the thread already that with the abolition of town councils the number of councillors in the country has decreased by 40% from 1627 to 949.

The old system had a county council and then a number of town councils with different councillors. The new system has the county council and a number of municipal districts. The key difference is it is the county councillors that serve on the municipal district. Muncipal districts are effectively only sub committees of the main county council.

For someone who is forever going on about public sector reform it is very surprising that you are completely unaware of the largest reform of local government the country has ever seen.

Rightwing

As I predicted, the Government is caving in.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/government-to-revise-water-charges-in-wake-of-mass-nationwide-protests-30714854.html

Instead of apologising, Tierney should be sacked. What a shambles the whole thing is now.

Phoebas

Rightwing wrote: »

As I predicted, the Government is caving in.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/government-to-revise-water-charges-in-wake-of-mass-nationwide-protests-30714854.html

Instead of apologising, Tierney should be sacked. What a shambles the whole thing is now.

revise the billing regime .... new charging system...


Doesn't sound like a cave in to me. Irish Water will remain, water meters will remain, billing will remain.

GetWithIt

Anyone see Damien English going in to bat for the govt on Prime Time?

Hands in his pocket and notes written on his hand. He looked like some scobie trying to cheat on his Junior Cert.

Godge

Rightwing wrote: »

Your definition of a quango and mine are completely different..

Well, maybe you should explain a little clearly. Calling every state organisation you disagree with a quango is one way to deal with it, but an objective definition would be better.

Rightwing wrote: »

Kenny had a target of 145 quangos to go, the only ones I see gone are town councils, and those punters/councillors have been shifted elsewhere..

Is your name Jon Snow?

The councillors are gone, they are gone, gone, gone since the local elections. Do try to keep up.

Rightwing wrote: »

As for the roads, that simply doesn't wash. The cash came from the EU, and maintaining secondary roads is far cheaper, so our road tax should be less if anything.

We have more and better roads and more maintenance costs than the North. Just look up the stats.

Rightwing

Godge wrote: »

Well, maybe you should explain a little clearly. Calling every state organisation you disagree with a quango is one way to deal with it, but an objective definition would be better.




Is your name Jon Snow?

The councillors are gone, they are gone, gone, gone since the local elections. Do try to keep up.




We have more and better roads and more maintenance costs than the North. Just look up the stats.

Well geographically we are bigger than NI so it should come as no surprise to anyone that we have more roads. As for better roads, go off a motorway and come back to me. Ever travel the main Limerick to Cork road ? 2 of our main cities (deathtrap springs to mind). We'll have to go to EU cap in hand for cash.

You are the only one I've heard justifying the difference in road tax, mark my words, the Government will cave in to the truckers, they know they haven't a foot to stand on. Only surprise is they have got away with it for so long.

Peanut2011

Why is everyone side tracking the fact that none of this would be even discussed if it was not for the IMF condition under the loan that the direct water charges had to be imposed?

Rightwing

Peanut2011 wrote: »

Why is everyone side tracking the fact that none of this would be even discussed if it was not for the IMF condition under the loan that the direct water charges had to be imposed?

A very unpopular charge, and every Govt was afraid of it. They preferred to raise the money through income tax. Hence, we are paying on the double now.

golfwallah

I think Fintan O’Toole fairly well nailed it in his article in yesterday’s Irish Times:

The public revolt against water charges is not, for the most part, a rebellion against the eminently sensible idea that a small State should have a single public utility to develop its water system. It’s an expression of anger about bigger things: command-and-control politics; trust-me- I’m-an-expert arrogance; rotten, feckless disregard for the realities of life at the bottom of the heap; the feeling that nobody gives a curse how you live or what you think.

It’s about injustice, and it’s justified. The recent budget was the fourth regressive budget in a row. Four times, the Government has coldly and deliberately decided to hit the weakest and poorest hardest. This has nothing to do with “austerity”. The “austerity” budgets under Fianna Fáil between 2008 and 2011 were mildly progressive – they hit the better-off harder than the worst-off. But every budget under Fine Gael and Labour (Labour!) has quietly reversed this trend.

Having a single utility would, indeed, seem like a good idea, if it weren’t for government filling it with compliant cronies and making it almost unworkable.

But then how could any organisation, set up to develop and run the country’s water system, have any chance of succeeding with constant political interference and changes of direction as regards how water should be charged for. For example, why the need for PPS numbers for billing purposes when no other public utility (e.g. for electricity / gas) need them?

Irish Water has all the hallmarks of lack of pre-planning, lack of professionalism and making it up as you go along!

JP Liz V1

Labour voted against FG now for referendum on Irish Water

FreudianSlippers

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Labour voted against FG now for referendum on Irish Water

This could be huge. I'd imagine it's all hands on deck at the moment at FG and Lab.

golfwallah

Even though Labour voted with Fianna Fail on the Seanad motion calling for a referendum on Irish Water in the upper house only - this could spell the beginning of lots of trouble for the survival of the coalition government:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/labour-votes-against-fine-gael-for-referendum-on-irish-water-1.1989075

Phoebas

“That Seanad Éireann requests the Government to initiate legislation to provide for a constitutional referendum to enshrine the ownership of Irish Water to the Irish people in perpetuity.”

What does this even mean?
Putting in a constitutional change based on this is opening us to a whole load of trouble down the line.

Does it mean that challenges can be brought to prevent either Abtran or GMC Sierra from doing work for Irish Water. If it doesn't, how does it stop any government from outsourcing/privatising the billing operations, the asset management operations, all of the repair operations and everything else, leaving Irish Water as a brass plate shell that doesn't have real ownership of anything?

golfwallah

Phoebas wrote: »

What does this even mean?
Putting in a constitutional change based on this is opening us to a whole load of trouble down the line.

Does it mean that challenges can be brought to prevent either Abtran or GMC Sierra from doing work for Irish Water. If it doesn't, how does it stop any government from outsourcing/privatising the billing operations, the asset management operations, all of the repair operations and everything else, leaving Irish Water as a brass plate shell that doesn't have real ownership of anything?

I guess it's a reflection of a commonly held desire that Irish Water remain in public ownership and not be sold into private ownership for the benefit of a select few.

Whether a constitutional change along these lines would work towards helping to provide a viable and affordable public water service is another matter entirely.

It seems to me that the present situation is a result of a badly thought through and inadequately debated policy. Having fudged the policy (what kind of service to provide and the amount of charge acceptable to the average citizen), government dumped responsibility for policy on Irish Water to get “something” done quickly. Without a clear mandate and a first class professional management team, Irish Water has spent millions on consultants to advise them what to do.

Effectively, government focussed on “how” the water service would be provided (i.e. on administrative matters like who would be appointed to do the job) than the core issues of “what” service would be provided, “what” people would be prepared to pay, how it would be billed, fairness, etc.

They are now reduced to making it up as they go along, having empowered Irish Water to spend millions on advice, much of which is now likely to be ignored.

To quote Adlai Stevenson: “The really basic thing in government is policy. Bad administration, to be sure, can destroy good policy, but good administration can never save bad policy”.

coolshannagh28

The govt put the cart before the horse politically , they set up the quango ,paid the consultants ran up huge numbers and then came up with a figure for water bills which they have belatedly realised will ensure they don't get re elected . They should have come up with the figure the punters would stand first and worked back from there ensuring that costs were controlled and saved themselves a lot of embarrassment.

ardmacha

golfwallah wrote: »

Effectively, government focussed on “how” the water service would be provided (i.e. on administrative matters like who would be appointed to do the job) than the core issues of “what” service would be provided, “what” people would be prepared to pay, how it would be billed, fairness, etc.

They are now reduced to making it up as they go along, having empowered Irish Water to spend millions on advice, much of which is now likely to be ignored.

Consultants can often provide useful advice, and people you pay once for results without pensions etc should have some advantages in the public service. However almost inevitably they aren't asked the right question and their proposals are not implemented, negating any good they can do.

To quote Adlai Stevenson: “The really basic thing in government is policy. Bad administration, to be sure, can destroy good policy, but good administration can never save bad policy”.

In Ireland it is policy to have bad administration.

ardmacha

Ireland seems not the only place with poor water planning
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-29947965

FreudianSlippers

The question has to be: "what is the constitutional change?" - I'm not going to vote for some typical Irish ham-fisted populist change which is akin to washing your dishes with a powerwasher. The wording of any change to the constitution should be well thought out and unambiguous; any change will be undoubtedly voted through at this stage in relation to water, so it's a very very dangerous time to be throwing around constitutional changes.

Dannyboy83

Looks like the Government are looking for an escape route

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/troika-to-raise-property-market-policies-and-water-debacle-1.1998506
The troika will be in Dublin as the Government reworks its contentious plan to charge households for water. This initiative was a key condition of the bailout programme so it falls to be examined by troika officials.

Amid a worsening household income crisis

Irish League of Credit Unions have published their Q4 2014 survey yesterday. Some very interesting results overall (see full release here: http://www.creditunion.ie/communications/news/2014/title,8698,en.php)

DrConstantinGurdgiev wrote:

The survey results largely confirm the trends in household deposits recorded by the Central Bank of Ireland.

Vanhalla

Oh ireland ireland.
At the beginning of the year i moved to the UK. Had never heard of council tax before. Boy did i get a shock. Myself and my partner are paying over 200 quid sterling every month, yes every month on this tax. For this we get our bins collected every week. Luckily water is included in this but in other parts of the uk this is a separate tax. Apparently alot of this tax goes in funding schools, or so i am told. no good to me as i dont go to school or have kids that do!
Ye dont realise how good you have it there! Whats the cost of water charges on average? a few hundred euro a year?
Not to mention the very generous social welfare system.
Its only when you move away you see these things!

ballyharpat

Ye dont realise how good you have it there! Whats the cost of water charges on average? a few hundred euro a year?
Not to mention the very generous social welfare system.
Its only when you move away you see these things!

Move to the USA, you'll pay refuse collection, water charges, little if any social welfare, no free hospital/doctor, and taxes that can be in and around +-5% of the value of your house........

But I'll die of thirst before I pay these damn water charges!!! :P

Godge

ballyharpat wrote: »

But I'll die of thirst before I pay these damn water charges!!! :P

That thread was closed about four days after he started his strike. Wonder what happened him.

AlekSmart

Vanhalla wrote: »

Oh Ireland,Ireland.
At the beginning of the year i moved to the UK. Had never heard of council tax before. Boy did I get a shock. Myself and my partner are paying over 200 quid sterling every month, yes every month on this tax. For this we get our bins collected every week. Luckily water is included in this but in other parts of the uk this is a separate tax. Apparently alot of this tax goes in funding schools, or so I am told. no good to me as I dont go to school or have kids that do!
Ye dont realise how good you have it there! Whats the cost of water charges on average? a few hundred euro a year?
Not to mention the very generous social welfare system.
Its only when you move away you see these things!

The reality,Vanhalla,is that the majority of mainstream Ireland DO realize "how good they have it",which is why,after the hissy-fitting has expired,and the anti-everythings have moved on to the next big protest focus,the water charging regime will find it's own level,in the manner of the raw material itself.

Irrespective of the angst ridden Letters to Edtors about "Battery Hen Creches" and demonic threats against Enda Kenny,Joan Burton et al the cold bare figures,all readily available to the State,tell a significantly different tale....and it's not one of abject poverty,with citizens having to drink black tea and eat gur cake......

http://www.simi.ie/News.html?NI=20467034

an inFigures just released from SIMI (Society of the Irish Motor Industry) show that car sales were up 21% for the month of October (2,042) compared with this month last year (1,692). So far this year, 95,217 new cars have been sold, an increase of 30% on 2013 (73,454). This is the first time in 5 years (2009 56,315) that new car sales have reached 95,000.

The Commercial Vehicle market is even more positive, with light commercial/van sales up 51% (15,900) this year in comparison to 2013 (10,555), with the month of October (1,370) recording a strong sales increase up 79% compared with October last year (766).
HGV (Heavy Goods Vehicle) registrations are also up 12% for the month of October and up 23% year to date.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/boomtime-shopping-trips-to-new-york-are-back-with-20pc-rise-in-bookings-for-christmas-2014-30638747.html

Bookings for pre-Christmas retail therapy in Manhattan have increased massively on last year, according to one of New York's best-known hoteliers.

John Fitzpatrick of the 4-star Fitzpatrick Manhattan and Fitzpatrick Grand Central hotels says there has already been a 20pc increase in bookings for Christmas 2014.

"And it is still very early. As a nation we tend to book late. Irish guests make up to 35pc of our clientele so it is a very heartening boost. Last Christmas was also 15pc up on the previous year so the level of advance bookings for the pre-Christmas period this year is a very strong vote of confidence," he added.

http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-more-mobile-phones-than-people-950190-Jun2013/

IRELAND OFFICIALLY has more mobile phone users than inhabitants, according to figures published today.

Official data from ComReg shows that there were 5,432,182 active mobile phone subscriptions at the end of March.

This equates roughly to 1.185 mobile phones for every man, woman and child in the country, irrespective of their age.

The various statistics as above all tell tales which point to a population still capable of supporting a level of discretionary spending towards the top end of the European norms.

Our rapid descent into becoming a far more disposable-friendly society than even the United States is only now being arrested,and not without a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Most probably whitened in Budapest).

Significantly broadening the Irish Tax base is the most beneficial move which any Government could make in Ireland,and it is badly required if the State is to afford ALL of it's citizens a chance of sustainable existence in the country.

jank

Water rates here in Australia would be about $150 or so a quarter. About $600 a year. A property owner pays this along with a property tax that goes to the local council. It varies but its usually at least a $1k. If you have a unit in an apartment under a strata agreement, expect to pay about 3-4k a year towards this.

The idea that the rest of the world pay nothing towards services and that Irish people in Ireland are the only ones paying these charges is a myth made up by those who pay nothing anyway.

Cookie_Monster

I pay nothing (directly) here in NZ But we do have domestic rates, payable to the local council to cover it.

Auckland and Wellington have to pay rates and water charges.

AlekSmart

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I pay nothing (directly) here in NZ But we do have domestic rates, payable to the local council to cover it.

Auckland and Wellington have to pay rates and water charges.

The seat of much of our current problems.....the 1970's Sylvester Barret era....

http://www.psai.ie/conferences/papers2006/healy.pdf

The need to modify the rating system in its impact on domestic property has thus been frequently
admitted in the past. The several investigations and st
udies of the rating system undertaken in recent years
have been prompted more than anything else by a basic dissatisfaction with the way in which rates bore on
householders. We [the Government] are removing once and for all the burden of rates from over 850,000
householders and other persons benefiting from the new reliefs’

How the people cheered and clapped,at a stroke the Emperor Sylvester had freed us from the yoke of Imperialism.

Luckily for the New Zealanders,Sylvester decided not to emigrate....:rolleyes:

Browney7

jank wrote: »

Water rates here in Australia would be about $150 or so a quarter. About $600 a year. A property owner pays this along with a property tax that goes to the local council. It varies but its usually at least a $1k. If you have a unit in an apartment under a strata agreement, expect to pay about 3-4k a year towards this.

The idea that the rest of the world pay nothing towards services and that Irish people in Ireland are the only ones paying these charges is a myth made up by those who pay nothing anyway.

Its apples and oranges though comparing the two countries though.

A quick tax calc for someone earning 40k per year in Ireland is 5940 PAYE, 1600 PRSI and 1945 USC (using Deloitte tax calculator). Ive no knowkedge of the OZ tax system but a quick google shows the tax paid by someone earning 57200 AUD (€40000 x fx rate of 1.43) is 10,137 AUD using the Oz government website. I see theres a medicare levy too, is this like a health insurance contribution? You might advise if theres other things that need to be considered to give a fair comparison.

My own objection to Irish Water is the shambolic way it has been set up with bonuses, allowances and large salaries along with the government stumbling from crisis to crisis.

Muahahaha

jank wrote: »

Water rates here in Australia would be about $150 or so a quarter. About $600 a year. A property owner pays this along with a property tax that goes to the local council. It varies but its usually at least a $1k. If you have a unit in an apartment under a strata agreement, expect to pay about 3-4k a year towards this.

The idea that the rest of the world pay nothing towards services and that Irish people in Ireland are the only ones paying these charges is a myth made up by those who pay nothing anyway.

Apples and oranges. I lived & worked in Australia in 1999, mainly working in pubs and restaurants, i.e temporary jobs. Back then I got paid what was called the 'award rate' i.e the minimum payable under state laws for that job. The rate was AUD$14 at the time which was approx IR£7 which itself converts to about €8.60 which is just 5 cents short of what the minimum wage is in Ireland today.
So basically my 1999 wage in Australia was the same as what you'd get for doing the exact same job in Ireland today in 2014.

Comparing the water regime in Australia and Ireland is completely disingenuous without making reference to salaries and taxation there.

ballyharpat

Muahahaha wrote: »

Apples and oranges. I lived & worked in Australia in 1999, mainly working in pubs and restaurants, i.e temporary jobs. Back then I got paid what was called the 'award rate' i.e the minimum payable under state laws for that job. The rate was AUD$14 at the time which was approx IR£7 which itself converts to about €8.60 which is just 5 cents short of what the minimum wage is in Ireland today.
So basically my 1999 wage in Australia was the same as what you'd get for doing the exact same job in Ireland today in 2014.

Comparing the water regime in Australia and Ireland is completely disingenuous without making reference to salaries and taxation there.

Where in Australia did you work?

Can you bring up a link showuing that that was the minimum wage back then? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_law

I worked in Manhattan in 1999, from then until this day, the wages for a chippy have not changed..... So really, you are not comparing apples to apples.....

The thing is, it's the working people that pay taxes here, SW was barely touched, this is one way of encouraging people on UB to go out and get a job, otherwise, it's an incentive to stay unemployed.....

jank

I posted this in another thread.

############
I agree on a number of points but it strengthens my case regarding low paid Irish workers and recipients of welfare attitude to tax and who should pay more. There was outcry when property tax was introduced. There is now an outcry about water rates. Only the Irish left seem to have an issue with property tax, where as the rest of the world's left advocate it. Why is this?

You point out that Australians workers have to pay local rates and water charges, much like the rest of the developed world. This is just a fact of life where water is seen as a utility and where local rates are paid to maintain and fund the local council (this is not quite the same in Ireland I know). Yet all we have had from the established left is a realisation that we need water and local service but let someone else pay for it. Not very socialist if you ask me.

The Irish figures include all PRSI and USC. Indeed in Ireland the tax one pays at 15k is USC.

However, as we both well know a salary of 15k euro in Ireland is not equivalent to $22,246 spending power in Australia so to make it fair take for example the min wage.
In Ireland its 8.65 euro
In Australia its $16.87

Lets see how they compare tax wise.

Ireland 8.65@38 hours = 328.70 a week, E17,092 a year if one assumes a full time job.
Ireland tax paid = E476
2.9% of total salary (includes USC, Someone on the min wage pays no PRSI)

Australia 16.87@38 hours = 641.06 , $33,335.12 a year.
Australia tax paid = $3,097.70
9.3% if total salary (includes medicare)

So, the person on the min wage pays over 3 TIMES the tax in Australia as they do in Ireland and also has to pay water rates and property tax....

Ireland has a hugely generous tax system for the bottom 20% where hardly any tax at all is collected. Yet the Irish left would have you believe that these people are the most downtrodden and taxed in the world. The 'we can't pay anymore Joe' Eh, you pay feck all at the moment nothing Bridget!

If you do the above calculations with Sweden or Germany or France I can i imagine the person on the min wage in those countries will be paying MORE tax again.

Another look.

Average industrial wage Ireland 828.88 euro a week @ 52 = 43,101.76
Total tax take = 11,066
25.6% of salary

Average industrial wage Australia $1516.90 a week @ 52 = $78,878.8
Total tax take = $18,760
23.7% of salary

Kinda similar at first glance, a rather role reveral as well. From hardly any tax to being taxed wellish. But a few things to note..
Every $ you earn in Australia over the average wage is taxed at 34.5% until you get to $80k, then it goes up to 39% until you reach a nice yearly income of $180k which is when the top tax rate kicks in @ 47%

In Ireland, every euro you earn at the average wage is taxed at 51%! No Comparison!

Also, as I mentioned there is no comparison between the two social insurance levies, one gets much much more in Australia for their 2% medicare than in Ireland for their PRSI/USC levies.

There are also a whole host of other taxes than one does not have to pay in Australia for example one you mentioned is inheritance tax. There is no such tax in Australia. In Ireland its criminally high. CGT higher in Ireland, DIRT higher, VAT higher etc.etc..

What does this tell us, that the tax burden in Ireland is set too heavy against middle income and high income earners while the low paid pay very very little if at all on income. Yet, where does most of the noise come from?

THIS is why we need a voice against the perpetual soft left and hard left wafflers in Irish media.
###############
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92740992&postcount=120

My point not that I approve of Irelands ways of taxing its middle income earners to the hilt. My arguement is that the burden is borne by middle income earners and that there should be a low tax fiscal conservative party who will act as a voice for the middle class, to balance out against the left who want it all but refuse to pay for it.

I don't object in principal with paying for water. Its the right thing to to. I do object to IW being used for client-ism and patronage where the middle class will be asked to pay and the left will shout loud enough to get themselves off paying. EVERYONE should pay something towards water. In Australia everyone pays. If you are deemed vulnerable you will get hefty discount, but you still pay. In Ireland we have gone on far too long with sections of society never paying for any service. Someone on the dole should pay towards their water, even its 20 euro a year.

Boggles

jank wrote: »

Water rates here in Australia would be about $150 or so a quarter. A

Driest inhabited continent on the planet. TBH, the charges seem quiet modest.

You might as well be comparing the taxation on the Norwegian fishing industry with Afghanistan.

Trying to directly compare 2 countries tax system without including the historical evolutionary process of both is folly, especially one in a different hemisphere.

Zander1983

jank wrote: »

I posted this in another thread.

############
I agree on a number of points but it strengthens my case regarding low paid Irish workers and recipients of welfare attitude to tax and who should pay more. There was outcry when property tax was introduced. There is now an outcry about water rates. Only the Irish left seem to have an issue with property tax, where as the rest of the world's left advocate it. Why is this?

You point out that Australians workers have to pay local rates and water charges, much like the rest of the developed world. This is just a fact of life where water is seen as a utility and where local rates are paid to maintain and fund the local council (this is not quite the same in Ireland I know). Yet all we have had from the established left is a realisation that we need water and local service but let someone else pay for it. Not very socialist if you ask me.

The Irish figures include all PRSI and USC. Indeed in Ireland the tax one pays at 15k is USC.

However, as we both well know a salary of 15k euro in Ireland is not equivalent to $22,246 spending power in Australia so to make it fair take for example the min wage.
In Ireland its 8.65 euro
In Australia its $16.87

Lets see how they compare tax wise.

Ireland 8.65@38 hours = 328.70 a week, E17,092 a year if one assumes a full time job.
Ireland tax paid = E476
2.9% of total salary (includes USC, Someone on the min wage pays no PRSI)

Australia 16.87@38 hours = 641.06 , $33,335.12 a year.
Australia tax paid = $3,097.70
9.3% if total salary (includes medicare)

So, the person on the min wage pays over 3 TIMES the tax in Australia as they do in Ireland and also has to pay water rates and property tax....

Ireland has a hugely generous tax system for the bottom 20% where hardly any tax at all is collected. Yet the Irish left would have you believe that these people are the most downtrodden and taxed in the world. The 'we can't pay anymore Joe' Eh, you pay feck all at the moment nothing Bridget!

If you do the above calculations with Sweden or Germany or France I can i imagine the person on the min wage in those countries will be paying MORE tax again.

Another look.

Average industrial wage Ireland 828.88 euro a week @ 52 = 43,101.76
Total tax take = 11,066
25.6% of salary

Average industrial wage Australia $1516.90 a week @ 52 = $78,878.8
Total tax take = $18,760
23.7% of salary

Kinda similar at first glance, a rather role reveral as well. From hardly any tax to being taxed wellish. But a few things to note..
Every $ you earn in Australia over the average wage is taxed at 34.5% until you get to $80k, then it goes up to 39% until you reach a nice yearly income of $180k which is when the top tax rate kicks in @ 47%

In Ireland, every euro you earn at the average wage is taxed at 51%! No Comparison!

Also, as I mentioned there is no comparison between the two social insurance levies, one gets much much more in Australia for their 2% medicare than in Ireland for their PRSI/USC levies.

There are also a whole host of other taxes than one does not have to pay in Australia for example one you mentioned is inheritance tax. There is no such tax in Australia. In Ireland its criminally high. CGT higher in Ireland, DIRT higher, VAT higher etc.etc..

What does this tell us, that the tax burden in Ireland is set too heavy against middle income and high income earners while the low paid pay very very little if at all on income. Yet, where does most of the noise come from?

THIS is why we need a voice against the perpetual soft left and hard left wafflers in Irish media.
###############
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92740992&postcount=120

My point not that I approve of Irelands ways of taxing its middle income earners to the hilt. My arguement is that the burden is borne by middle income earners and that there should be a low tax fiscal conservative party who will act as a voice for the middle class, to balance out against the left who want it all but refuse to pay for it.

I don't object in principal with paying for water. Its the right thing to to. I do object to IW being used for client-ism and patronage where the middle class will be asked to pay and the left will shout loud enough to get themselves off paying. EVERYONE should pay something towards water. In Australia everyone pays. If you are deemed vulnerable you will get hefty discount, but you still pay. In Ireland we have gone on far too long with sections of society never paying for any service. Someone on the dole should pay towards their water, even its 20 euro a year.

I 100% agree with all of this. I started a thread pointing this out and referenced this recent IBEC report -> http://www.ibec.ie/IBEC/Press/PressPublicationsdoclib3.nsf/vPages/Newsroom~new-ibec-report-debunking-income-tax-myths-28-09-2014/$file/Debunking+Irish+income+tax+myths.pdf

The report points out:
- 82.5% of all tax is paid by workers earning above the average wage.
- We are low tax for anyone earning below 32k and the highest in Europe for anyone earning above 37k
- the tax regime in Ireland

In Ireland, 41% rate starts after 32k. In Germany, its after 250k.

If the government got rid of water charges and moved the tax to middle income earners (yet again), there would be no protests on the streets cos we're too busy worked 70 hour weeks.

What should happen is:
- water charges stay
- the top rate of income starts at 45k and not 32k thereby saving families thousands

This however wont stop water charge protests. Why? Because a large number of the protestors dont know what it's like to pay income tax, never have, and never will.

jank

Boggles wrote: »

Driest inhabited continent on the planet. TBH, the charges seem quiet modest.

You might as well be comparing the taxation on the Norwegian fishing industry with Afghanistan.

Trying to directly compare 2 countries tax system without including the historical evolutionary process of both is folly, especially one in a different hemisphere.

OK, lets compare NZ. A country with a similar population and a similar agri oriented export economy....Guess what, they pay for water. No idea what the rates are but they pay something towards it.

http://www.kapiticoast.govt.nz/water-charging
This give a clue. There is a fixed rate of $188.50 a year plus 0.95c per cubic litre (1000l)

Ireland is the only EU country that does not charge for water directly. I wonder if Germany, Sweden Holland et all are wrong and we Irish do it better...?

All things being equal, a household should pay for its water usage. If this was the case, tax cuts on VAT, USC and income will be more likely.

mandrake04

I agree with Jank he is spot on, my income for last year was $142678 and I paid $34433.05 in tax including the 1.5% medicare levy.

That's about 24%.

Water rates for my house was $130 per qtr, council rates $880 per year. Had a Town house in a Strata agreement which covered up keep of common grounds, driveway, rubbish, building exterior and building insurance/sinking fund. $2200 per year.

Rightwing

Rightwing wrote: »

As I predicted, the Government is caving in.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/government-to-revise-water-charges-in-wake-of-mass-nationwide-protests-30714854.html

Instead of apologising, Tierney should be sacked. What a shambles the whole thing is now.

Just as I predicted, a humiliation for the Govt & IW. An absolute win for the protestors. How will IW fund the bonuses now with the lower charges ?

Godge

jank wrote: »

I posted this in another thread.

############
I agree on a number of points but it strengthens my case regarding low paid Irish workers and recipients of welfare attitude to tax and who should pay more. There was outcry when property tax was introduced. There is now an outcry about water rates. Only the Irish left seem to have an issue with property tax, where as the rest of the world's left advocate it. Why is this?

You point out that Australians workers have to pay local rates and water charges, much like the rest of the developed world. This is just a fact of life where water is seen as a utility and where local rates are paid to maintain and fund the local council (this is not quite the same in Ireland I know). Yet all we have had from the established left is a realisation that we need water and local service but let someone else pay for it. Not very socialist if you ask me.

The Irish figures include all PRSI and USC. Indeed in Ireland the tax one pays at 15k is USC.

However, as we both well know a salary of 15k euro in Ireland is not equivalent to $22,246 spending power in Australia so to make it fair take for example the min wage.
In Ireland its 8.65 euro
In Australia its $16.87

Lets see how they compare tax wise.

Ireland 8.65@38 hours = 328.70 a week, E17,092 a year if one assumes a full time job.
Ireland tax paid = E476
2.9% of total salary (includes USC, Someone on the min wage pays no PRSI)

Australia 16.87@38 hours = 641.06 , $33,335.12 a year.
Australia tax paid = $3,097.70
9.3% if total salary (includes medicare)

So, the person on the min wage pays over 3 TIMES the tax in Australia as they do in Ireland and also has to pay water rates and property tax....

Ireland has a hugely generous tax system for the bottom 20% where hardly any tax at all is collected. Yet the Irish left would have you believe that these people are the most downtrodden and taxed in the world. The 'we can't pay anymore Joe' Eh, you pay feck all at the moment nothing Bridget!

If you do the above calculations with Sweden or Germany or France I can i imagine the person on the min wage in those countries will be paying MORE tax again.

Another look.

Average industrial wage Ireland 828.88 euro a week @ 52 = 43,101.76
Total tax take = 11,066
25.6% of salary

Average industrial wage Australia $1516.90 a week @ 52 = $78,878.8
Total tax take = $18,760
23.7% of salary

Kinda similar at first glance, a rather role reveral as well. From hardly any tax to being taxed wellish. But a few things to note..
Every $ you earn in Australia over the average wage is taxed at 34.5% until you get to $80k, then it goes up to 39% until you reach a nice yearly income of $180k which is when the top tax rate kicks in @ 47%

In Ireland, every euro you earn at the average wage is taxed at 51%! No Comparison!

Also, as I mentioned there is no comparison between the two social insurance levies, one gets much much more in Australia for their 2% medicare than in Ireland for their PRSI/USC levies.

There are also a whole host of other taxes than one does not have to pay in Australia for example one you mentioned is inheritance tax. There is no such tax in Australia. In Ireland its criminally high. CGT higher in Ireland, DIRT higher, VAT higher etc.etc..

What does this tell us, that the tax burden in Ireland is set too heavy against middle income and high income earners while the low paid pay very very little if at all on income. Yet, where does most of the noise come from?

THIS is why we need a voice against the perpetual soft left and hard left wafflers in Irish media.
###############
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92740992&postcount=120

My point not that I approve of Irelands ways of taxing its middle income earners to the hilt. My arguement is that the burden is borne by middle income earners and that there should be a low tax fiscal conservative party who will act as a voice for the middle class, to balance out against the left who want it all but refuse to pay for it.

I don't object in principal with paying for water. Its the right thing to to. I do object to IW being used for client-ism and patronage where the middle class will be asked to pay and the left will shout loud enough to get themselves off paying. EVERYONE should pay something towards water. In Australia everyone pays. If you are deemed vulnerable you will get hefty discount, but you still pay. In Ireland we have gone on far too long with sections of society never paying for any service. Someone on the dole should pay towards their water, even its 20 euro a year.

I agree completely.

The tax on anyone who actually goes out and does a hard day's work every day is way too high.

mandrake04

Godge wrote: »

I agree completely.

The tax on anyone who actually goes out and does a hard day's work every day is way too high.

That's why I would have to think twice (maybe 3 times) of ever returning, you are just a tax slave and I cant see it ever changing.

Boggles

jank wrote: »

OK, lets compare NZ. A country with a similar population and a similar agri oriented export economy....Guess what, they pay for water. No idea what the rates are but they pay something towards it.

http://www.kapiticoast.govt.nz/water-charging
This give a clue. There is a fixed rate of $188.50 a year plus 0.95c per cubic litre (1000l)

Ireland is the only EU country that does not charge for water directly. I wonder if Germany, Sweden Holland et all are wrong and we Irish do it better...?

I think you have missed my point more than slightly.

But to come at it at a different angle.

New Zealand have massive problems with it's water infrastructure and delivery systems, if they brought in motor taxation (which they don't have) to the levels we experience in Ireland they could fix a lot of their problems and decrease Vat and Income charges to boot.

See my point?

jank wrote: »

All things being equal, a household should pay for its water usage. If this was the case, tax cuts on VAT, USC and income will be more likely.

I completely agree.

All things equal is pie in the sky though.

Dannyboy83

jank wrote: »

I posted this in another thread.

Great Post.

Note that the ESRI said Ireland is one of the few countries where income inequality has decreased since 2008, funded by heavier and heavier taxes on the middle

https://www.esri.ie/news_events/latest_press_releases/inequality-in-the-distrib/
28/07/2014
INEQUALITY IN THE DISTRIBUTION OF INCOME HAS REDUCED
A new Research Note published today (Monday, 28 July) by the ESRI shows that inequality in income distribution has reduced. The Distribution of Income and the Public Finances , by John FitzGerald, outlines how policies adopted by successive governments have contributed to an outcome where inequality in the distribution of income has reduced since 2007.

A major factor leading to this outcome was that the welfare system was relatively unchanged in the face of the massive increase in numbers depending on it.

The need for increased taxes and for cuts elsewhere in the economy was greatly increased by the decision of successive governments to protect those on low incomes who were dependent on the welfare system.

This policy choice was different from that adopted elsewhere in the EU 15, where income inequality increased significantly as a result of the crisis.

Commenting on the research, John FitzGerald said:

"Because of the heavy loss of income among high earners and the major reduction in the numbers employed throughout the economy, the burden of increased taxation had to be carried by those on middle incomes"

mandrake04

ballyharpat wrote: »

Where in Australia did you work?

Can you bring up a link showuing that that was the minimum wage back then? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_law

Try this http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/ausstats/subscriber.nsf/0/C74F96874D9B4948CA2568BD0013504D/$File/63020_Nov%201999.pdf

also if you look at page 13 it gives Average wage for Accommodation, cafes and restaurants as around $600 per week (persons) which is an average for the whole country, those working in cities would be slightly higher than the state award rate (which is also variable)

The minimum rate for 1999 was $385 per week

http://www.slp.wa.gov.au/industrial/indgaz.nsf/71E66277924877AC482576B100110043/$File/Appendix+2.pdf

jank

Boggles wrote: »

I think you have missed my point more than slightly.

But to come at it at a different angle.

New Zealand have massive problems with it's water infrastructure and delivery systems, if they brought in motor taxation (which they don't have) to the levels we experience in Ireland they could fix a lot of their problems and decrease Vat and Income charges to boot.

See my point?

So because we have a motor tax we shouldn't have water rates?
I lived in NZ for a bit and never heard of issues with their water infrastructure. There is a rego in NZ which is cheap compared to Ireland but is used to fund road repairs. Of course their local rates which are far higher than in Ireland fund a lot of roads...

Rightwing

You can't really compare NZ/Aus to Irl.

Just look at the respective immigration policies for a clue.

Godge

mandrake04 wrote: »

That's why I would have to think twice (maybe 3 times) of ever returning, you are just a tax slave and I cant see it ever changing.

Not if you are on welfare. I will get slated for saying this.

golfwallah

It's hardly surprising but bonuses are not being paid in IW for 2013 or 2014. This is set to be reviewed as regards 2015 according to the Irish Independent.

Bonuses are not being paid because of lack of public confidence according to the Irish Examiner.

It all seems to be falling apart both for IW and government with both seeming to backtrack furiously in an effort to salvage something out of the mess.

But I wonder if any real fundamental change will follow the IW debacle as regards how politics are conducted in Ireland. i.e. jobs for politicians and their cronies, patronage, squeezing the middle, etc.