Irish Water

ardmacha

golfwallah wrote: »

It's hardly surprising but bonuses are not being paid in IW for 2013 or 2014. This is set to be reviewed as regards 2015 according to the Irish Independent.

Bonuses are not being paid because of lack of public confidence according to the Irish Examiner.

It all seems to be falling apart both for IW and government with both seeming to backtrack furiously in an effort to salvage something out of the mess.

I'm not well enough informed on IW bonuses to comment on them. But people were hired on a particular basis and now the politicians are sticking their oar in, not because of any mature assessment of the situation but on the basis of half baked analysis and rants.

golfwallah wrote: »

But I wonder if any real fundamental change will follow the IW debacle as regards how politics are conducted in Ireland. i.e. jobs for politicians and their cronies, patronage, squeezing the middle, etc.

Probably not, the political culture is profoundly dysfunctional.

Cookie_Monster

Boggles wrote: »

New Zealand have massive problems with it's water infrastructure and delivery systems,

Nothing that makes council news, or government publication or media... Can hardly be that bad if there's no major concern from anyone over-here, can it? Aside from some minor supply restrictions last year when it didn't rain for 4 months and a little bit of contamination in one Auckland reservoir I've heard nothing about water issues in the 3 years I've lived here.

if they brought in motor taxation (which they don't have)

We do have it. There's the yearly Rego cost which funds roads and ACC (accident compensation). There's also fuel tax on petrol. There's also diesel miles which users of diesel vehicles on the roads must pay, agri is exempt. So not only is there plenty of taxes, it's also far more efficiently done than having different dyes and huge customs checking issues.

Boggles wrote: »

to the levels we experience in Ireland they could fix a lot of their problems and decrease Vat and Income charges to boot.

GST is 15% compared to 23% PAYE is far lower - but better spread out in bands.

jank wrote:

OK, lets compare NZ. A country with a similar population and a similar agri oriented export economy....Guess what, they pay for water. No idea what the rates are but they pay something towards it.

Some do, some don't. Depends on the council. Some charge for water on usage, as you point out some charge flat rates and some do not charge at all but cover it out of rates.

Dannyboy83

golfwallah wrote: »

It's hardly surprising but bonuses are not being paid in IW for 2013 or 2014. This is set to be reviewed as regards 2015 according to the Irish Independent.

Bonuses are not being paid because of lack of public confidence according to the Irish Examiner.

It all seems to be falling apart both for IW and government with both seeming to backtrack furiously in an effort to salvage something out of the mess.

But I wonder if any real fundamental change will follow the IW debacle as regards how politics are conducted in Ireland. i.e. jobs for politicians and their cronies, patronage, squeezing the middle, etc.

It was ironic listening to Frank Flannery's interview on the Last Word, IW was supposed to be a reform, implemented by a reform government, and was supposed to be cheaper than the existing system.
He said 'somewhere along the line, it became mixed up with a revenue raising proposition wheter that was Troika related or not"

Listen here from 17:45

Dannyboy83

ardmacha wrote: »

Probably not, the political culture is profoundly dysfunctional.

Agree, the electorate have to subvert the democratic process, just to actually make their position heard on any argument (wheter I disagree with their position or not - Water tax, Abortion, Pension & Medical cards).

What mechanism do we - the overtaxed middle - have to make our voices heard, given that we don't/can't protest?

"Write to our TD" - yea, there's this thing called the whip which makes an elected representative non-representative ...

And if/when some vote buying government will inevitably propose abolition of water charges for SW recipients, we will just have to suck it up as usual.

FreudianSlippers

It definitely wasn't Troika related, they really weren't specific about charges other than domestic tariffs should be introduced.

Zander1983

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

What mechanism do we - the overtaxed middle - have to make our voices heard, given that we don't/can't protest?

I don't know but this should be explored. There needs to be a new centre-right political party that rewards hard work not punishes it. But you look at facebook or twitter and its full of snarling pricks saying "tax the rich!". It absolutely sickens me.

golfwallah

Government is about to announce the new "capped rates" for water charges today at €60 for single house occupiers and €160 for families.

According to this Irish Times article, they are also expected to announce "compliance measures" to ensure payment:

such as introducing penalties for those who have not paid their water bills, or entered into a payment plan, for one year and attaching unpaid charges to people’s homes, ensuring the charge would remain if they try to sell the home.

Sounds a bit like the plan that was talked about when local council charges were introduced a few years ago and then quietly dropped after a couple of years because so many people wouldn't pay.

I had intended to pay water charges but why should I, if half of my friends, relations and neighbours regard themselves as being in the "can't pay, won't pay" category?

B9K9

That chap Tom Clonan nailed it on air just now

Rightwing

golfwallah wrote: »

Government is about to announce the new "capped rates" for water charges today at €60 for single house occupiers and €160 for families.

According to this Irish Times article, they are also expected to announce "compliance measures" to ensure payment:


Sounds a bit like the plan that was talked about when local council charges were introduced a few years ago and then quietly dropped after a couple of years because so many people wouldn't pay.

I had intended to pay water charges but why should I, if half of my friends, relations and neighbours regard themselves as being in the "can't pay, won't pay" category?

This is a classic example of why Government doesn't work.

So looks all these meters were just a complete waste of time & money. :rolleyes:

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

This is a classic example of why Government doesn't work.

So Government doesnt work?

Do you propose anarchy?

B9K9

Well you could argue it does work only not quite as intended/wished. The people have spoken and informally notified TPTB they do not consent to these rules. And by implication, there is consent to other stuff. And that there is a disturbance threshold TPTB have crossed, and must now retreat in disarray and some shame.

Muahahaha

Zander1983 wrote: »

I don't know but this should be explored. There needs to be a new centre-right political party that rewards hard work not punishes it. But you look at facebook or twitter and its full of snarling pricks saying "tax the rich!". It absolutely sickens me.

We had that, they were called the Progressive Democrats and their light touch regulation and neo-liberal economic policies were the main reason why we had to call in the IMF to bail us out like a third world African banana republic. When the PD's were in power Mary Harney created the HSE from the various health boards. Instead of rationalising staff and taking advantage of the efficiencies you get by amalgamating several scattered departments together Harney instead added yet another layer of management and made the organisation even more inefficient that it was before. And when the scandals emerged she constantly distanced herself from it by pointing the finger at the HSE and saying it was their fault.

The exact same thing that happened with the HSE is now happening with Irish Water. Over 2000 council staff throughout the country have been amalgamated into Irish Water with a huge layer of overpaid management slapped on top. We've already had reports that almost half of them aren't even needed. Instead of giving us an organisation that is lean and efficient and provides value for money for taxpayers the FG/Labour coalition is delivering yet another tax wasting entity and staffing it with their overpaid cronies like John Tierney who is already well known in Dublin for his ability to waste money at local level as well as being in favour of knocking down 1000 year old Viking ruins back in the day, one of the best examples of Viking ruins anywhere in Europe knocked down with a bulldozer under the watch of Dublin City Council. Thats the caliber of person running Irish Water, on a salary of €200k, money for incompetency.

Irish Water is the HSE all over again and people shouldn't put up with it. It doesn't matter if you're working class or middle class, if you pay tax and don't agree with more government waste and slush funds then Irish Water needs to be opposed.

FreudianSlippers

I don't think the Progressive Democrats would have blanket guaranteed the banks, so the rest of your statement is moot.

Sofa King

RTE One right now.

antoobrien

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I don't think the Progressive Democrats would have blanket guaranteed the banks, so the rest of your statement is moot.

Seeing as the the PDs were not wound up until 2009 and the guarantee occurred in 2008 while they were still in government, I'd go back and give whichever post you are referring to a bit more attention.

Sofa King

PPSN no longer required.

FreudianSlippers

antoobrien wrote: »

Seeing as the the PDs were not wound up until 2009 and the guarantee occurred in 2008 while they were still in government, I'd go back and give whichever post you are referring to a bit more attention.

One backbencher and the minister for health were instrumental in the bank guarantee?

Also, they disbanded in 2008 before the guarantee although the official dissolution of the party was in 2009

Sofa King

The key measures we will introduce and legislate for are as follows:

New capped annual charges:

Cost to single adult households will be €60 and for other households it will be no more than €160.

There will be specific legislative provision to allow for capped charges to continue to be set from 2019 onwards.

€100 grant:

All eligible households will receive a Water Conservation Grant of €100 per year; This means that the net cost to single adult households will be €60; For other households it will be no more than €160.

Pay half if only getting water in or out:

Households with either a water supply only or sewage only service will pay 50pc of the new rates;

Metered usage:

Metered usage can bring charges below the relevant cap. The children’s allowance remains at 21,000 litres per annum and will apply to all persons resident in a property aged under 18 irrespective of whether the child qualifies for Child Benefit, meaning children will continue to go free;

Metered Bills:

For metered bills, the charge for water in/out is reduced to €3.70 per 1,000 litres - almost 25% lower than the previous subsidised rate;

Self-declaration:

The system is based on self-declaration and appropriate audit.

PPS numbers:

PPS Numbers will not be required for registration.

Billing starts:

The starting date for domestic water charging is being pushed back to 1 January 2015, with first bills to issue from April 2015;

Unfit water:

In cases where water is unfit for human consumption, the affected customers will receive a 100% discount on the costs of their drinking water supply for the duration of the restriction. Therefore, customers will only be required to pay for the sewage treatment.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/water/irish-water-crisis/confirmed-in-full-the-water-charges-30758061.html

JP Liz V1

€100 grant and if the cost is €60 for single adult households is it a €40 bonus freebie

Sofa King

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

€100 grant and if the cost is €60 for single adult households is it a €40 bonus freebie

Also, as the bill is capped.

I can just pay my capped fee and still use as much water as I like.

danielmci9

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

€100 grant and if the cost is €60 for single adult households is it a €40 bonus freebie

The cost for single adult households is €60 (€160 - €100)

antoobrien

The 30,000L free allowance per household (separate from the children's 21k) has been removed.

rebelnag

So for single adult net cost is €60. If I am responsible for my own waste water with septic tank, is my net cost €30?
And if I simply register with Irish Water am I eligible for the €100 grant?
Thanks

rebelnag

Minister says €100 water conservation grant would be a cheque or transfer and customers would pay charges upfront and receive grant later. This may upset folk.

BoJack Horseman

rebelnag wrote: »

This may upset folk.

Every gov grant is retrospective.

But sure, no one is paying anyway so its moot.

Mundane

So, a single adult will pay €160-€100=€60

A couple (no children at residence) will pay €260-€100=€160

Am I missing something or does this suggest that 2 adults (160/2=80) get charged more than double the price for 1 adult (60)?

Simple maths?

FreudianSlippers

What's to stop me from saying it's just me in the house? Like other than honesty I mean

Sofa King

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

What's to stop me from saying it's just me in the house? Like other than honesty I mean

Without the PPSN they can't check.

Pay the capped bill and use all the water you want.

Conservation has nothing to do with it all really, they just want monies.

Muahahaha

€60 for a single household to carry on using as much water as they want. This has turned into another farce now, €60 is such a feeble amount that it is nothing more than a bribe from the government to get people to sign up.

Lets just put this in perspective. There are 30 people in Irish Water earning €100,000 or more. So that's a wage bill of €30 million annually just for them. So given this €60 charge it will take 500,000 single household payments just to make up the €30m wage bill at Irish Water to pay their top tier of gold plated management. Half a million householders will literally pay for these guys wages and not a penny of their water charges will be spent on repairing leaks or water conservation.

Banana republic.

Sofa King

Muahahaha wrote: »

€60 for a single household to carry on using as much water as they want. This has turned into another farce now, €60 is such a feeble amount that it is nothing more than a bribe from the government to get people to sign up.

Lets just put this in perspective. There are 30 people in Irish Water earning €100,000 or more. So that's a wage bill of €30 million annually just for them. So given this €60 charge it will take 500,000 single household payments just to make up the €30m wage bill at Irish Water to pay their top tier of gold plated management. Half a million householders will literally pay for these guys wages and not a penny of their water charges will be spent on repairing leaks or water conservation.

Banana republic.

30 x €100,000 = €3 Million

phater phagan

Irish Water -Uisce Eireann for Dummies.
Irish Water = Telecom Eireann (Eircom). QED

Rightwing

Huge win for the left. Just about the most embarrassing and crushing defeat for a Govt as is possible.

ardmacha

There are 30 people in Irish Water earning €100,000 or more. So that's a wage bill of €30 million annually just for them. So given this €60 charge it will take 500,000 single household payments just to make up the €30m wage bill at Irish Water to pay their top tier of gold plated management.

Exactly the kind of innumerate mumbo jumbo that dogs debate in this country.

Godge

ardmacha wrote: »

Exactly the kind of innumerate mumbo jumbo that dogs debate in this country.

Give it half an hour and it will be on some anti-austerity website as €30 bn.

Damien360

Can someone answer the below please.

Are the figures for water per 1000 litres inclusive of vat at 13.5%.

Are the same figures inclusive of standing charges.

washman3

Now is the time to step up the protests even more. This shambolic Government is now on the ropes. Time to deliver the knockout blow.
Roll on December 10...:)

The whole country is indebted to those who took to the streets and protested so far.

Rightwing

washman3 wrote: »

Now is the time to step up the protests even more. This shambolic Government is now on the ropes. Time to deliver the knockout blow.
Roll on December 10...:)

The whole country is indebted to those who took to the streets and protested so far.

I never really believed in protests before, and don't take part in them, but I must admit I'm quite surprised how devastating the results have been.

Galwayguy35

Anyone know what's the story with those of us with septic tanks?

Are we paying the same as those on a public sewage scheme?

Rightwing

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Anyone know what's the story with those of us with septic tanks?

Are we paying the same as those on a public sewage scheme?

I wouldn't worry about it, a few more protests and the Govt will be paying punters to use the water.

Chuckle chuckle.

Kristopherus

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Anyone know what's the story with those of us with septic tanks?

Are we paying the same as those on a public sewage scheme?

You'll only pay for the water you use, if you are getting it from the public source. I presume the septic tank charge will cover the waste aspect of the fee.

dublinman1990

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Anyone know what's the story with those of us with septic tanks?

Are we paying the same as those on a public sewage scheme?

The €100 conservation grant is only for householders with septic tanks, private wells in their home or on group water schemes. But you be paying the full amount first then you get the €100 grant in full to get the reduction to €60.

It does not sound too attractive or "modest" for the rest of us though if RTE's David-Davin Power or Brian Dobson says so.

washman3

Rightwing wrote: »

I never really believed in protests before, and don't take part in them, but I must admit I'm quite surprised how devastating the results have been.

Ya, just goes to show what can be achieved by people power. Greece got massive debt write-downs when the people took to the streets and protested, we got nothing, I repeat NOTHING. This is all contrary to Government spin.

But what really surprises me is the length of time it took many people to wake up and stand up.
Now is the time to really drive it home.!!

Rightwing

washman3 wrote: »

Ya, just goes to show what can be achieved by people power. Greece got massive debt write-downs when the people took to the streets and protested, we got nothing, I repeat NOTHING. This is all contrary to Government spin.

But what really surprises me is the length of time it took many people to wake up and stand up.
Now is the time to really drive it home.!!

Greece didn't really get much, they aren't comparable economically to us at all. They still have massive debt, which is competely unsustainable, expect them to be in news soon enough for a 3rd bailout.

firestarter51

do pensioners get any further discount
or low earners like before if you got fuel allowance it was 100 less

washman3

Rightwing wrote: »

Greece didn't really get much, they aren't comparable economically to us at all. They still have massive debt, which is competely unsustainable, expect them to be in news soon enough for a 3rd bailout.

They've got 2 bailouts so far, about €200 billion. And if the ECB think they will even recoup anything near that in future they can go for a whistle. We are not dealing with a bunch of lambs when we talk about the Greeks. Its in their genes.;)

Mantis Toboggan

So is there any cap on usage?

Beeker

Am I right with this.
Single adult home with septic tank.
You only pay half the fee so half 160 = 80. 100 grant means you make 20
Can that be right??

Sofa King

Buddy Holly wrote: »

So is there any cap on usage?

Nope. There is a cap on the bill so use what you like.

Mantis Toboggan

Sofa King wrote: »

Nope. There is a cap on the bill so use what you like.

Happy days! Better fill those 50k gallon drums for when the cap does come in.
So much for conservation!

Thank you fine gael!

Tinkersbell

Sofa King wrote: »

Nope. There is a cap on the bill so use what you like.

Conservation, eh?