Irish Water

Sofa King

Tinkersbell wrote: »

Conservation, eh?

Sure that's pretty much thrown out the window now.

Galwayguy35

washman3 wrote: »

They've got 2 bailouts so far, about €200 billion. And if the ECB think they will even recoup anything near that in future they can go for a whistle. We are not dealing with a bunch of lambs when we talk about the Greeks. Its in their genes.;)

Not a great example, the protesters threw a Molotov Cocktail into an office and killed an innocent person.

The violence on the streets there is unreal when they protest, not something we want to see here.

Rightwing

washman3 wrote: »

They've got 2 bailouts so far, about €200 billion. And if the ECB think they will even recoup anything near that in future they can go for a whistle. We are not dealing with a bunch of lambs when we talk about the Greeks. Its in their genes.;)

Unfortunately, they are paupers. They have no means to pay it back. Should really have the Eurozone.

Muahahaha

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Not a great example, the protesters threw a Molotov Cocktail into an office and killed an innocent person.

The violence on the streets there is unreal when they protest, not something we want to see here.

Agreed that we don;t want to see trouble here. Nonetheless if the Irish had of gotten on the streets in big numbers at the time of the bailout then at least our government could have went back to the Troika and asked for a bone and pointed to a few hundred thousand people demanding it or the govt would fall. The bone may have only been €5bn or €10bn but it would have been better than what we did get off them which was a big fat zero. The Greeks extracted concessions by protesting, we sat on our arses and got what we deserved- nothing.

Dannyboy83

Buddy Holly wrote: »

Happy days! Better fill those 50k gallon drums for when the cap does come in.
So much for conservation!

Thank you fine gael!

Create a drought by damming aquifers in Bolivia Ireland before staging a coup d'état and then selling water supplies back to the new government at grossly inflated prices.

washman3

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Not a great example, the protesters threw a Molotov Cocktail into an office and killed an innocent person.

The violence on the streets there is unreal when they protest, not something we want to see here.

Nobody advocating violence on the streets here, just mass protests on the streets which should have happened 5/6 years ago. We were still punch-drunk from the farce that was the 'Celtic Tiger', believed the Government spin that 'we had turned the corner' and we should 'wear the green jersey' or 'we all partied' or were ridiculed by those with vested interests including those who constantly post here as FF/FG/LAB apologists.
What has now been proven is that power doesn't corrupt, but the fear of losing power definitely does.!!

washman3

Rightwing wrote: »

Unfortunately, they are paupers. They have no means to pay it back. Should really have the Eurozone.

The ordinary Greek was never rich anyway, but were made to feel they were by a corrupt establishment. The ordinary folk were fed the crumbs so that the Government cronies, the big shipping magnates for example, totally fleeced the system mainly by tax avoidance. It was this type of scenario that bankrupt Greece, despite the spin we have been fed.
Does this sound familiar..??

Tinkersbell

washman3 wrote: »

Nobody advocating violence on the streets here, just mass protests on the streets which should have happened 5/6 years ago. We were still punch-drunk from the farce that was the 'Celtic Tiger', believed the Government spin that 'we had turned the corner' and we should 'wear the green jersey' or 'we all partied' or were ridiculed by those with vested interests including those who constantly post here as FF/FG/LAB apologists.
What has now been proven is that power doesn't corrupt, but the fear of losing power definitely does.!!

+1000
Well said.

Tinkersbell

washman3 wrote: »

The ordinary Greek was never rich anyway, but were made to feel they were by a corrupt establishment. The ordinary folk were fed the crumbs so that the Government cronies, the big shipping magnates for example, totally fleeced the system mainly by tax avoidance. It was this type of scenario that bankrupt Greece, despite the spin we have been fed.
Does this sound familiar..??

Tax evasion was rife in Greece.
The government cooked the books to gain entry to the EU.
A lot of people got seriously rich by evading tax, government officials included.
But still, Greece got €100 billion in debt written down.
We, on the other hand, got no debt writedown thanks to FF/FG and Labour.

washman3

Tinkersbell wrote: »

Tax evasion was rife in Greece.
The government cooked the books to gain entry to the EU.
A lot of people got seriously rich by evading tax, government officials included.
But still, Greece got €100 billion in debt written down.
We, on the other hand, got no debt writedown thanks to FF/FG and Labour.

Exactly. The Government deliberately turned a blind eye to tax evasion even at the lowest level because they were up to their necks in the same practice themselves, and their cronies of course, yet when the whole thing went belly-up it was the 'little guy' that got the blame because he 'partied' and 'lived beyond his means'. (still sound familiar)
The Greek establishment entered the EU with the deliberate intention of robbing it blind, make no mistake about it.

Rightwing

washman3 wrote: »

Exactly. The Government deliberately turned a blind eye to tax evasion even at the lowest level because they were up to their necks in the same practice themselves, and their cronies of course, yet when the whole thing went belly-up it was the 'little guy' that got the blame because he 'partied' and 'lived beyond his means'. (still sound familiar)
The Greek establishment entered the EU with the deliberate intention of robbing it blind, make no mistake about it.

Problems were much more complex than that. The country had massive public sector problems, this is 1 example:

Shortly after this meeting, my host informed me of an audit recently done on one of the largest hospitals in Athens. This hospital was hemorrhaging Euros, and the Greek government is required to make up the deficit with capital injections. Officials began an inquiry into these losses and found 45 gardeners on staff at the hospital. The most interesting fact about the hospital was that it did not have a garden.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/kyle-bass-chief-bank-economist-harry-potter-can-fix-greece-2011-2#ixzz3JYCRvUu2

Tinkersbell

Rightwing wrote: »

Officials began an inquiry into these losses and found 45 gardener on staff at the hospital. The most interesting fact about the hospital was that it did not have a garden.

No way.
That's just mad.
That'd be like having a water company, fully staffed and then having local councils having thousands of 'water section' workers, wouldn't it?

Rightwing

Tinkersbell wrote: »

No way.
That's just mad.
That'd be like having a water company, fully staffed and then having local councils having thousands of 'water section' workers, wouldn't it?

Exact same, but for the fact that the said council workers have transferred to IW. This is not to say there isn't an over staffing issue there. There is.

washman3

Rightwing wrote: »

Problems were much more complex than that. The country had massive public sector problems, this is 1 example:

Shortly after this meeting, my host informed me of an audit recently done on one of the largest hospitals in Athens. This hospital was hemorrhaging Euros, and the Greek government is required to make up the deficit with capital injections. Officials began an inquiry into these losses and found 45 gardeners on staff at the hospital. The most interesting fact about the hospital was that it did not have a garden.

Rather like 45 gardeners on the payroll. 45 phantom names that didn't exist. So 45 pay packets being distributed among 1 or many people in administration in the hospital. Had first hand experience of this practice on state funded contracts in this country myself, where contractors claimed wages for workers that were not on the job or in one particular case had some of his workers building his buddies mansion while being paid by the state for an extension to (ironically) a hospital.
The other likely scenario is that these 45 'gardeners' did actually exist and played 'solitaire' on the hospitals computers every day. They were employed because they were the relatives of some infleuental people at the hospital or were regular government party election 'helpers'
Either way the 45 gardeners were only a symptom or the problems at that particular hospital, not the cause.

FreudianSlippers

washman3 wrote: »

The whole country is indebted to those who took to the streets and protested so far.

The country is literally indebted now. As in, because of these people who don't want to pay their way, the country is going to have to borrow more money to fund water.

Beeker wrote: »

Am I right with this.
Single adult home with septic tank.
You only pay half the fee so half 160 = 80. 100 grant means you make 20
Can that be right??

No:
€160-€100=€60
€60/2=€30

But I suspect you knew that.

hju6

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The country is literally indebted now. As in, because of these people who don't want to pay their way, the country is going to have to borrow more money to fund water.



No:
€160-€100=€60
€60/2=€30

But I suspect you knew that.

Here’s how, in the Minister’s own words:
“The capped charges will be €160 for single adult households…”
“Households with either a water supply only or sewage only service [including those with septic tanks] will pay 50% of the new rates”
That’s €80
“All eligible households will receive a Water Conservation Grant of €100 per year.”
That’s €20 in profit, every year, until January 2019.

http://www.thejournal.ie/making-money-from-water-charges-rebate-1789366-Nov2014/

antoobrien

washman3 wrote: »

The whole country is indebted to those who took to the streets and protested so far.

Actually if we look at what the protests have achieved, they have increased the unfairness of the system.

Ignoring the rebates the following are the charges
1 Adult - 160
2 Adults - 260
3 Adults - 260
4 Adults - 260
5 Adults - 260.

So there are thousands of shared houses & apartments across the country that are now being directly subsidized by 1 & 2 person households.

Well done protesters, you have further screwed over the country and turned usage charges into an actual tax.

Rightwing

antoobrien wrote: »

Actually if we look at what the protests have achieved, they have the unfairness of the system.

Ignoring the rebates the following are the charges
1 Adult - 160
2 Adults - 260
3 Adults - 260
4 Adults - 260
5 Adults - 260.

So there are thousands of shared houses & apartments across the country that are now being directly subsidized by 1 & 2 person households.

Well done protesters, you have further screwed over the country and turned usage charges into an actual tax.

You certainly have a point. But the protestors also have done good.

Next time, Govt might think before they act. The assumption was they could charge whatever they liked and Tierney & the lads could have bonuses of 18% (for starters).

antoobrien

Tinkersbell wrote: »

But still, Greece got €100 billion in debt written down.
We, on the other hand, got no debt writedown thanks to FF/FG and Labour.

A large part of that was due to the book cooking that the EU either missed (through not doing thorough due diligence) or turned a blind eye to. They had to let the Greeks off simply because they messed up with letting Greece into the Euro in the first place.

But then the price for their debt write downs has been real austerity, rather than the cutting about the edges we saw here.

Here is a compare and contrast between some of the Greek measures and what we've seen*:
CBC coverage
Wikipedia article


Greece | Ireland
15,000 planned (permanent) PS layoffs (8,500 carried out) | Reduction of numbers through natural attrition, early retirement and non renewal of contracts
20% PS pay cut | Up to 15% PS pay cut
1 year cut of 60% for 30,000 PS workers | 7% pension levy that did not affect the gross, so still had to be paid by the taxpayer
20% cut on monthly pensions above €1k | No Change
40% cut on monthly pensions at the same level for existing retirees under 55 | No Change
Health spending to be cut by €2.1 billion between 2011 & 2015 | Enforcing budgets
Total defence cuts of approx €1.5 billion between 2011-2015 | Merge Justice & defence departments
Education spending to be trimmed through merging or closing of 1,976 schools | We're building schools
Taxable income threshold reduced from €12k to €5k | Reduced from €18,500 to €16,000
A " "solidarity levy”" of between one and five per cent per household, which will be raised twice in 2012 " | USC
VAT rises of up 4% | Up 2%
Reduction of publicly owned companies from 6,000 - 2,000 | Sold part of Bord Gais and a new 20 year National Lottery License
PS Retirement age up from 61 to 65 | Encouraged to retire earlier
600 fewer municipalities | Merge Limerick & Waterford City councils with the County Councils, Tipperary South & North & disband UDCs
22% minimum wage cuts | unchanged


The only real cuts we've seen has been a decimation of the capital budgets, the one things that should not be touched in times of "austerity".

So people, get a grip, we have not had austerity and anybody that believes we've had austerity has been the victim of a Greek scale delusion.

Black Swan

MOD REMINDER:
The topic of this thread is "Irish Water."

antoobrien

Rightwing wrote: »

But the protestors also have done good.

Yeah, they've
gotten rid of the 30,000 free allowance that every household was supposed to get
removed the need for conservation for several years (when we're wasting more than half the drinking water that is produced)
screwed up the company budget that was designed to keep this off the debt, meaning there may have to be extra taxes/cuts in other areas

Real good they've done there :rolleyes:

Rightwing wrote: »

Next time, Govt might think before they act.

Next time the Government will get the spin right first

Rightwing wrote: »

The assumption was they could charge whatever they liked

This is a prime example of the PR mess that this whole thing is. the charges were not pulled out of thin air and it's not hard to figure out the original charging structure.

Work it out -

Total cost is about 1.25 bn, commercial rates gathered is about 250m - 1bn cost of the rest of the water.

1.6bnL/day produced, approx 20% of that is used by the commercial side, ~1.3bn l/day to be covered by private sources.

Using Dublin city council's figures (Tierney would) of 190l/day usage, we get to a 2.44/CuM fresh water figure (doubled for sewage for the 4.88).

Rightwing wrote: »

and Tierney & the lads could have bonuses of 18% (for starters).

Anther PR cock up, especially considering the bonus structure was not due to kick in until 2015, but I'll tell you one thing: whomever is heading up the metering operations deserves every penny of whatever bonuses they are due for overachieving despite the protests.

ardmacha

I've often noted here that the facts should be sufficient to make people's case and it should not be necessary to invent data, yet we continually have misrepresentation in relation to PS pay and the like.

In the above we have "7% pension levy that did not affect the gross, so still had to be paid by the taxpayer". where the 7% is an average, many people paid more than 7% and untrue in that some PS pensions were cut, although not all.

Then we have "Up to 15% PS pay cut" which is plain untrue as pay cuts were up to 25% and a significant number of people would have had cuts of 18% or more.

And of courses the PS in Ireland was never greatly overmanned in general and Ireland is building schools because the population is increasing.

And the line about municipalities does not mention the abolition of town and urban councils.

But the general point holds true, we did not have austerity Greek style, because we didn't need to.

MOD REMINDER:
The topic of this thread is "Irish Water."

Edit: apologies to the moderator, I had started typing before this post, I'll leave it at that.

antoobrien

ardmacha wrote: »

I've often noted here that the facts should be sufficient to make people's case and it should not be necessary to invent data, yet we continually have misrepresentation in relation to PS pay and the like.

No misrepresentation intended, if there are actual mistakes there (rather than the mainly perceptual issues you've pointed out), please provide the appropriate proof in the appropriate thread(s) and I'll amend the post accordingly.

However to (hopefully) put to bed the link back to the Greeks and the myth that water metering and charges is an austerity measure:

The process was started in 2007 by the department of the environment. I believe the greens, who undermined the water funding system through the revamp of the motor tax rates in 2008, had that one at the time.

Rightwing

antoobrien wrote: »

Yeah, they've
gotten rid of the 30,000 free allowance that every household was supposed to get
removed the need for conservation for several years (when we're wasting more than half the drinking water that is produced)
screwed up the company budget that was designed to keep this off the debt, meaning there may have to be extra taxes/cuts in other areas

Real good they've done there :rolleyes:



Next time the Government will get the spin right first



This is a prime example of the PR mess that this whole thing is. the charges were not pulled out of thin air and it's not hard to figure out the original charging structure.

Work it out -

Total cost is about 1.25 bn, commercial rates gathered is about 250m - 1bn cost of the rest of the water.

1.6bnL/day produced, approx 20% of that is used by the commercial side, ~1.3bn l/day to be covered by private sources.

Using Dublin city council's figures (Tierney would) of 190l/day usage, we get to a 2.44/CuM fresh water figure (doubled for sewage for the 4.88).




Anther PR cock up, especially considering the bonus structure was not due to kick in until 2015, but I'll tell you one thing: whomever is heading up the metering operations deserves every penny of whatever bonuses they are due for overachieving despite the protests.

This whole operation should have been outsourced to a German or British company with a proper culture. We may have seen results, instead we have seen 1 of the biggest shambolic operations in the history of the State, and there have been bad ones.

folbotcar

antoobrien wrote: »

Actually if we look at what the protests have achieved, they have the unfairness of the system.

Ignoring the rebates the following are the charges
1 Adult - 160
2 Adults - 260
3 Adults - 260
4 Adults - 260
5 Adults - 260.

So there are thousands of shared houses & apartments across the country that are now being directly subsidized by 1 & 2 person households.

Well done protesters, you have further screwed over the country and turned usage charges into an actual tax.

I didn't see a water protester stand up in the Dail and announce these charges. What I did see was a panicked government making yet another stupid mistake in a long catalogue of stupid mistakes.

Must I also remind you that 'water protesters' are not some vague shadowy minority. Right now most Irish people count themselves as anti Irish Water.

The government are to blame for this mess not the Irish people. You would do well to remember that.

ardmacha

antoobrien wrote: »

No misrepresentation intended, if there are actual mistakes there (rather than the mainly perceptual issues you've pointed out), please provide the appropriate proof in the appropriate thread(s) and I'll amend the post accordingly.

I'm not quite sure why I should be required to provide proof of something in the public domain, but to hopefully to end not only bring the sidebar, but the posting of misrepresentations in this forum generally.
pension levy http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0005/sec0002.html#sec2
pay cut 1 - cuts up to 15-20%
Haddington Road pat cuts of 5.5% upwards

antoobrien wrote: »

The process was started in 2007 by the department of the environment. I believe the greens, who undermined the water funding system through the revamp of the motor tax rates in 2008, had that one at the time.

Indeed the greens have opposed the flat rate charging regime, while supporting the public ownership of Irish Water, which isn't currently an issue.

folbotcar wrote:

The government are to blame for this mess not the Irish people.

The people voted for the government. Many of those ranting and raving now voted for Bertie back in the day.

folbotcar

ardmacha wrote: »

The people voted for the government. Many of those ranting and raving now voted for Bertie back in the day.

There's a glib pointless and patronising statement if there ever was one. Do I have to remind you that they weren't elected with a blanket permission to ignore the clearly expressed wishes of the voters?

Nor were they elected to set up yet another incompetent self serving semi state body in Irish Water.

Fine Gael and labour are to blame for this not the voters.

antoobrien

folbotcar wrote: »

I didn't see a water protester stand up in the Dail and announce these charges.

So what? the reason that a reasonably fair system that charges people for what they use (i.e. not a tax) into a system that charges everybody the same regardless of use.

It;'s time for the protesters to wake up and realize they've changed the system for the worse.

ardmacha

folbotcar wrote: »

There's a glib pointless and patronising statement if there ever was one. Do I have to remind you that they weren't elected with a blanket permission to ignore the clearly expressed wishes of the voters?

They were elected to sort out the public finances and put them on a sustainable basis. Fine Gael, the largest party of the coalition, indicated this clearly enough in their manifesto. And what is the clearly expressed wishes of the voters? Is there any evidence that a majority of people oppose water charges?

folbotcar wrote: »

Nor were they elected to set up yet another incompetent self serving semi state body in Irish Water.

One incompetent self serving body delivering water is no worse than multiple incompetent self serving bodies doing it.

antoobrien

Sofa King wrote: »

Without the PPSN they can't check.

Which is why I'm unhappy that the requirement for the PPSN has been dropped, it was the best way of ensuring that fraud is stopped.

chopper6

Rightwing wrote: »

This whole operation should have been outsourced to a German or British company with a proper culture. We may have seen results, instead we have seen 1 of the biggest shambolic operations in the history of the State, and there have been bad ones.

Eircom floatation was another.

mpok

I am a householder with two children. We consume about 85 cubic meters of water annually.
On the previous charge proposal with allowances I would have paid about €65.
On the new scheme with no allowances I will pay €160 while the cap is in place and about €215 without the cap.

Of course the guy in the mansion with swimming pool and acres of garden also pays €160, absolutely no incentive to conserve.

Great work water charge protestors!

Why has there been such hysterical talk about limiting baths, taking quick showers, etc? Has anyone actually looked at real water consumption? My children swim in the bath, I enjoy my shower, we run the dishwasher about 500 time a year and the washing machine around 200. And we do drink water as well. All in 85 cubic meters.

ardmacha

mpok wrote: »

Great work water charge protestors!

Why has there been such hysterical talk about limiting baths, taking quick showers, etc? Has anyone actually looked at real water consumption? My children swim in the bath, I enjoy my shower, we run the dishwasher about 500 time a year and the washing machine around 200. And we do drink water as well. All in 85 cubic meters.

Reality is not relevant to these protestors.

mpok

At the original rate of €4.88 per cubic meter, without allowances, I would be looking at an annual charge comparable to about 6 weeks of USC or 5 weeks of pension levy, or 2 weeks of PAYE+PRSI.

When will people protest about the things that matter? A 2% move in one of the PAYE rates is more money than property tax and water charge together for most taxpayers.

Sofa King

Ireland Facing “ISIS Situation” Over Water Charge Protests

http://www.rabble.ie/2014/11/20/ireland-facing-isis-situation-over-water-charge-protests/

ardmacha

mpok wrote: »

When will people protest about the things that matter? A 2% move in one of the PAYE rates is more money than property tax and water charge together for most taxpayers.

Only if you work/ pay tax.

Godge

ardmacha wrote: »

Only if you work/ pay tax.

And those who work and pay tax are too busy working and paying tax and wondering where their next meal is coming from to go out and protest.

washman3

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The country is literally indebted now. As in, because of these people who don't want to pay their way, the country is going to have to borrow more money to fund water.

The people that didn't pay their way are the Bankers,speculators,developers and Government cronies. That exactly why we are in this position in the first place. If people had woken up 5/6 years ago and gone out and protested like they are doing now things would be far different.

There is a perception here, mainly among FG/LAB apologists that this is the end of the protests, maybe that's what they are praying for.
This is only the beginning, roll on December 10.

Frank O. Pinion

mpok wrote: »

I am a householder with two children. We consume about 85 cubic meters of water annually.
On the previous charge proposal with allowances I would have paid about €65.
On the new scheme with no allowances I will pay €160 while the cap is in place and about €215 without the cap.

Of course the guy in the mansion with swimming pool and acres of garden also pays €160, absolutely no incentive to conserve.

Great work water charge protestors!

Don't worry you can just not pay the charge, I'm pretty sure nothing will happen to you.

Godge

washman3 wrote: »

The people that didn't pay their way are the Bankers,speculators,developers and Government cronies. That exactly why we are in this position in the first place. If people had woken up 5/6 years ago and gone out and protested like they are doing now things would be far different.

There is a perception here, mainly among FG/LAB apologists that this is the end of the protests, maybe that's what they are praying for.
This is only the beginning, roll on December 10.

So what, maybe 300 people didn't pay their way. How are we going to fill the gap in the public finances from those 300 people?

FreudianSlippers

Frank O. Pinion wrote: »

Don't worry you can just not pay the charge, I'm pretty sure nothing will happen to you.

It will be attached to your property, so hope you never have to sell or re-mortgage.

golfwallah

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It will be attached to your property, so hope you never have to sell or re-mortgage.

The penalties for not paying will be added too - no point in anyone paying if those who don't pay get way with it!

If there are a lot of people in the "won't pay" category, it will become very evident after a year or so, whether or not "attachments" are working. If not, the whole system of charging for water will collapse.

As water services have to be paid for and the system up to now has demonstrably failed to deliver, I don't think that is in anyone's interest.

Zander1983

mpok wrote: »

When will people protest about the things that matter? A 2% move in one of the PAYE rates is more money than property tax and water charge together for most taxpayers.

This has been my point all along. I don't care about paying 250 euro for water charges. I agree with it in fact because it increases peoples awareness about their water usage. What is far far more relevant to me is that i pay 41% in PAYE on anything i earn over 32k. I'm very close to paying almost 50% of what I earn on tax. If I lived in the UK, my take home pay would be over 1,000 euro more per month. This is the real scandal, not water charges.

The problem is, most water charge protestors arent paying income tax, or are paying very little. If you earn below 32k, you are paying the lowest income tax in Europe. This protest is only going to increase taxes for the middle income earners - we simply dont have time to protest. The Independents, Socialists and Sinn Fein make me sick when they talk about taxing us more - workers earning above the average wage pay 82.5% of all income tax. Its hideous. These f**king protestors are only going to make things worse for us.

mpok

Frank O. Pinion wrote: »

Don't worry you can just not pay the charge, I'm pretty sure nothing will happen to you.

I don't have a problem with paying the charge. Heck I wouldn't mind paying the €415 of the original rate without allowances IF, and only if, EVERYONE pays at the same rate. Idiots who leave the tap running for two weeks to avoid freezing while they are away for Christmas need to pay the full cost of their stupidity.

People who really can't pay should be subsidized on a case by case basis. Blanket subsidies and capped charges benefit the careless at the expense of the average taxpayer.

Frank O. Pinion

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It will be attached to your property, so hope you never have to sell or re-mortgage.

No, I don't plan to.

I am well aware of what our wonderful government has said, this week, but firstly, I don't believe that's going to work, and secondly, let's see if they don't change their minds next week, next month, etc. A few protests and Joan locked in her car for a few hours, and "water conservation" quickly went out the window.

FreudianSlippers

Frank O. Pinion wrote: »

No, I don't plan to.

I am well aware of what our wonderful government has said, this week, but firstly, I don't believe that's going to work, and secondly, let's see if they don't change their minds next week, next month, etc. A few protests and Joan locked in her car for a few hours, and "water conservation" quickly went out the window.

Thanks for contributing to society. I'm sure you'll be the first person to take a nice long shower on our expense. :mad:

Frank O. Pinion

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Thanks for contributing to society. I'm sure you'll be the first person to take a nice long shower on our expense. :mad:

Yeah, I haven't turned any of my taps off since this whole IW fiasco started, and in between each boards thread I read, I flush the toilet.

ardmacha

Frank O. Pinion wrote: »

Yeah, I haven't turned any of my taps off since this whole IW fiasco started, and in between each boards thread I read, I flush the toilet.

This boards thread does make you want to flush the toilet, for sure, it full of crap.

chopper6

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Thanks for contributing to society. I'm sure you'll be the first person to take a nice long shower on our expense. :mad:

There's plenty of people getting drunk every day and going on holiday at our expense too...keep it in proportion.

Tinkersbell

chopper6 wrote: »

There's plenty of people getting drunk every day and going on holiday at our expense too...keep it in proportion.

Change the record, will you?
It's so lame at this stage, it's laughable.